Ep34 Perspectives on Pornography: His & Hers

"Create in me a clean heart, O God..."
~ Psalm 51:12

How can something that affects all of us be something that we almost never talk about honestly and purposefully? Pornography has infiltrated individuals, marriages, families, and the Church, and it's time to deal with it in ways that are faithful and fruitful. In this incredibly candid episode, Pat and Kenna dive into an intimate and inspiring discussion about the impact of pornography within their marriage and their own personal journeys. With raw vulnerability, they reveal the emotional toll, struggles, and triumphs experienced during Pat's journey to recovery and their path to healing in their marriage.

From the deceptive nature of pornography's allure to the deep wounds inflicted, Pat and Kenna unpack the complexities and offer personal insights into navigating the aftermath. Together, they explore the transformative power of openness and healing, emphasizing the need for accountability, grace, and compassion in the face of addiction. This compelling episode addresses the profound effects of pornography on relationships and highlights the resilience and growth that can emerge from facing such challenges. Join Pat and Kenna as they courageously share their story, offering wisdom, hope, and guidance for all navigating similar struggles.

Please send us your questions and feedback to include for the next episode of this 2-part series on pornography! You can send us a message on Instagram or Facebook, or send us an email at thiswholelife@martincenterforintegration.com.

Episode 34 Show Notes (Including all the great resources for overcoming pornography mentioned in the episode)

Chapters:
0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
11:53: When pornography is personal
20:33: Explaining this 2-part series & studies on porn
25:59: When did you know that porn was a problem?
37:08: Feeling a loss of worth & maintaining boundaries
45:00: What helped turn things around?
55:56: Getting past porn to the deeper wounds
1:00:45: Challenge By Choice

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

Check us out on Instagram & Facebook

Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 11:53 When pornography is personal
• 20:33 Explaining this 2-part series & studies on porn
• 25:59 When did you know that porn was a problem?
• 37:08 Feeling a loss of worth & maintaining boundaries
• 45:00 What helped turn things around?
• 55:56 Getting past porn to the deeper wounds
• 1:00:45 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Kenna Millea [00:00:00]:

And so then to have, you know, a significant other and then a husband whose behaviors and actions and choices were were further compounding that lie that I'm not enough, that I'm not worthy. It was it was huge. And so, yeah, you talk about that horrible night in our living room where stuff really hit the fan, and I I I it was my breaking point.

Pat Millea [00:00:28]:

Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader, and I'm here with my bride, Kenna, a licensed marriage and family therapist. This is the stuff she and I talk about all the time, doing dishes in the car on a date. We're excited to bring you this podcast for educational purposes. It's not therapy or a substitute for mental health care. So come on in. Have a seat at our dining room table and join the conversation with us. We are so glad you're here.

Pat Millea [00:01:20]:

Welcome back to This Whole Life friends, it's great to be with you today. It's another glorious day in the recording studio, and I'm here with my glorious bride making ridiculous faces at me.

Kenna Millea [00:01:32]:

I've never had that adjective used for me before.

Pat Millea [00:01:35]:

Glorious?

Kenna Millea [00:01:36]:

Glorious. I dig it.

Pat Millea [00:01:37]:

The face you were making was a thing of glory. Yes. It was. This is one of the rare moments that I wish that we had a video element to our podcast.

Kenna Millea [00:01:46]:

No. I was I will say I I've been off Instagram for a while, but I went to go check on something today. And I saw the different Greece reels that you had posted on Instagram. And first of all, thank you because, like, we're never gonna, like, print pictures anything because

Pat Millea [00:02:00]:

You're welcome. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:02:02]:

We're not in that season of life. But a lot of the video you have I was like, I make ridiculous faces. Like, we should not be on video. Like, this my facial expressions are radio facial expressions. Like like, I was made for audio only.

Pat Millea [00:02:19]:

False, first of all. Although the benefit of being the one with the camera slash phone is always that your face is the only one on the video, and they don't have to look at my ridiculousness.

Kenna Millea [00:02:29]:

I did notice. I was like, how many seconds of these reels are Pat or Kenna's mouths closed? Because we just are always, like, open gaping mouth.

Pat Millea [00:02:41]:

That's true. Yeah. Me and you riding the donkey up the hill. And you just, like, walking through Thessaloniki with your mouth in a big grin.

Kenna Millea [00:02:47]:

Or eating.

Pat Millea [00:02:48]:

Or eating. Correct.

Kenna Millea [00:02:49]:

Eating, drinking all the time. Anyhoo, yes. Welcome back to This Whole Life.

Pat Millea [00:02:54]:

So glad to be with you, friends. Whatever this day or evening or early morning finds you doing, I'm glad that you're with us.

Kenna Millea [00:03:01]:

Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:03:02]:

Before we get too far into it, if you are listening right now, you may have noticed from the title of this episode, my friends, That if you are in the habit of, you know, the our our episodes drop on late Saturday night, maybe you find it Sunday morning. And if you like to wait until Monday morning where you drive the kids to school and you listen about encouraging and uplifting.

Kenna Millea [00:03:24]:

Are we KTIS here?

Pat Millea [00:03:26]:

KLOVE. Yeah. It sounds like a Christian music station. No. I mean, encouraging, conversations about faith and mental health. This is not the episode to listen to with your little ones around.

Kenna Millea [00:03:39]:

Right. And This is this is your 30 second lead to go find something else for them to listen to.

Pat Millea [00:03:44]:

Yes. Yes. Don't give in to Cocomelon. Don't let them listen to that, but also not this. It's gonna be a great conversation. Super valuable. I can't wait to have this discussion, but this is not a conversation for 7 year olds. Yes.

Pat Millea [00:03:57]:

So

Kenna Millea [00:03:57]:

Okay. So you've been warned. This is we hope if if you're like me and you fast forward, you hit the 30 second 30 second 30 second button.

Pat Millea [00:04:04]:

Yeah. That's true. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:04:05]:

Like, I'm still stalling for you Yeah. Right. Because I'm hoping that you're used to by now jumping back in. Pat is gonna put 75 disclaimers out there because he would be horrified if this happened to him.

Pat Millea [00:04:15]:

Well and let's do this. One more disclaimer after the highs and hards.

Kenna Millea [00:04:17]:

Okay.

Pat Millea [00:04:18]:

Okay? So why don't you start us off with that. The highs and hard, by the way, very safe.

Kenna Millea [00:04:22]:

Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:04:22]:

So if your kid's listening to this, you've got about another minute and a half. Okay? Kick us off.

Kenna Millea [00:04:27]:

Let's be real. When have we ever finished highs and hards in a minute and a half?

Pat Millea [00:04:29]:

That's true.

Kenna Millea [00:04:30]:

Alright. Highs and hards. So I would say that, the hard lately has been just disruptions in schedule, recognizing, again, we all know this by now, my choleric kind of type a personality just Love's predictability as much as I can. And so the whole, like, Halloween, All Saints, many days of costumes needed in many different settings, high fructose corn syrup, and dye Red 40 or 6 or blue or whatever that was that was supposed to make my children berserk, and it probably did. And I don't even know. Just all of that And then daylight savings. It was like, whose idea was to smash all these things in 5 days of each other? But it just happened. And also you're out town when daylight savings happened, which neither of us knew was going to coincide

Pat Millea [00:05:28]:

Correct.

Kenna Millea [00:05:28]:

Which is just fantastic.

Pat Millea [00:05:29]:

Or did I schedule this event, right, specifically on daylight savings?

Kenna Millea [00:05:34]:

But anyhoo so it is a silly, maybe minor hard, but it was really tonight In coming home, I got to spend some time with a friend who's recovering from a surgery, and I took a couple of the kids with us after school. And I just realized, like, We had the time to do that. And so in retrospect, like, that was a marathon at a sprinter's pace for those, like, 5 days, and I was like, like, coming out of it. Yeah. Just a little a little ragged, a little weary. So feeling really grateful, to be done with that for another 360 days. So or I guess until daily savings in the spring. Whatever. I'm sure I'll find a reason to complain So that's

Pat Millea [00:06:13]:

And good news for you. There are no holidays between now and then. The beginning of November through the spring, Nothing going on that's gonna disrupt our schedule at all. It'll be fine.

Kenna Millea [00:06:23]:

Thanks for that. I would say the high is and you kind of made you poked fun at me ever so lovingly the other night. But I am totally on board of the, evening ritual train right now. And I am you know what? If you are someone out there pedaling ambient light and and instrumental music and and diffused oils for calming and all sorts of supplements to relax my muscles, Rolling on the foam roller, stretching downward facing dogs. Like, I am I am signed up for that program.

Pat Millea [00:07:00]:

You do, like, flip a switch into a massage studio at about 8:30.

Kenna Millea [00:07:04]:

Flip a switch. I literally flip all of the overhead lighting switches in our house, and it has been awesome. And I have been reading. I've been pleasure reading before bed, doing a little bit of an examine, checking in with you, hanging out with the kids, we've been doing some prayer with our older kids. Like, it has been delightful, mainly kicked off by the Sober October that our parish was, observing together. Mhmm. But I am, like, digging it.

Kenna Millea [00:07:30]:

And it may not be the remedy for my insomnia because

Pat Millea [00:07:33]:

I was just gonna ask. I've not asked you in real life, I realized. Are you sleeping better after all these ridiculous steps that you're going through?

Kenna Millea [00:07:39]:

I'm not falling asleep better. But I do I I am finding unless a child finds its way into our room, which is, like, 2 out of 3 nights, but, But I I'm sleeping through the night, which is a huge upgrade

Pat Millea [00:07:52]:

Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:07:52]:

From my usual. So that high, I will take it every day of the week. So make fun all you want, Pat Millea, but we will have that massage studio here. Right?

Pat Millea [00:08:02]:

Make fun all I want?

Kenna Millea [00:08:03]:

Circa 8pm.

Pat Millea [00:08:03]:

Because I've been holding it in until now. If I'm given free rein, then buckle up. No. I'm just kidding. It's fine. Whatever you need to sleep.

Kenna Millea [00:08:12]:

And you, what things can I poke fun at that are bringing you joy?

Pat Millea [00:08:16]:

Nothing at all. I I like totally normal things. I think my, I think my hard is, Just being reminded again and again that as our children get older, we will be presented with some new challenges during different stages. We've got our oldest is about to become a teenager in 3 weeks, which is yeah. Again, buckle up. Here we go. So with some of the, challenges and difficulties, difficult conversations, and and priorities, and things like that, Those are gonna be brand new. No one's ever been a teenager in our house before besides you and me.

Pat Millea [00:08:53]:

But some of the challenges that our individual kids face Are just gonna be probably lifelong things that they deal with in their their mind, their body, their worldview, whatever. You know? So so the hard, I think, is just coming to terms with those 2 things. Like, some new challenges that we won't anticipate are gonna be presented to us, and some challenges that we will be really sick of, But they're just gonna be with us forever, and that's okay too. You know? Yeah. And it's not I mean, none of this is I'm not despairing over any of it. It's gonna be totally fine. We're gonna fight through it. We're gonna work through it together.

Pat Millea [00:09:27]:

It'll be great. But, just coming to terms with what the future of Parenting growing children looks like, I think.

Kenna Millea [00:09:34]:

There's really no easy button. It's just really, like, nope.

Pat Millea [00:09:38]:

Nope. Kidding. I know. Yep. And my high is that I, was able to go speak over this past weekend when you were dealing with daylight Savings all by yourself?

Kenna Millea [00:09:49]:

It really wasn't that bad.

Pat Millea [00:09:50]:

Sorry about that.

Kenna Millea [00:09:50]:

I'm just I'm just trying to get some mileage out of it. Okay?

Pat Millea [00:09:53]:

Love you very much. But I got to go to Albuquerque in New Mexico Whoop whoop. And it was great for a lot of reasons. I you don't love traveling as much as I do because you love Your bed with the foam pad on top.

Kenna Millea [00:10:05]:

And my routine.

Pat Millea [00:10:06]:

I can sleep on any flat surface. It doesn't and a lot of not flat surfaces. It doesn't matter at all. So I love traveling. Love seeing new places. I had never been to New Mexico before. I'd been to the southwest, but never to New Mexico specifically. The event was great.

Pat Millea [00:10:20]:

It was it was hosted by the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, great organizers, just a really good, like, grassroots group of youth ministers too that put this thing together. And it was great to to kind of deepen some friendship with some folks that I met speaking with Catholic HEART Workcamp this past summer as well. So they were the connection to, the Archdiocese of Santa Fe down there. So I got to get to know them a little bit better, make some new friends in Christ, And, also just see, like, cacti and eat ridiculously good Mexican food and, and then come home 40 hours later. And it was great. It was just a It's a beautiful, very predictable flight. I did not get stranded in a blizzard in New Mexico like I did this exact same time of the year Last year.

Kenna Millea [00:11:05]:

So true.

Pat Millea [00:11:06]:

So, apparently, I just need to go to New Mexico in the fall and not North Dakota, allegedly.

Kenna Millea [00:11:11]:

Yes. I I think anyone could have told you that, babe.

Pat Millea [00:11:15]:

Oh, gosh. So, yeah, it it was, it was a definite high. Great to come home. Always better to come home than it is to be away, but, but it was a great trip and a great ministry experience as well. It's a good faith experience.

Kenna Millea [00:11:25]:

So Well, it's good to have you back, and I'm glad you got to go.

Pat Millea [00:11:28]:

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Kenna Millea [00:11:29]:

So just disclaimer number 47.

Pat Millea [00:11:32]:

If you're still listening and your 3 year old

Pat Millea [00:11:35]:

Maybe they can't even understand. Yeah. 3 is too old. If they're 6 months old, probably no harm, no foul. But if they're, like, 3 or older, now's the time to turn on something else and listen when they're not around.

Kenna Millea [00:11:45]:

Or pop in those AirPods, those handy dandy AirPods.

Pat Millea [00:11:47]:

Hey. Oh, it's gonna be better for you and them if they don't hear this. But I I really am excited about this conversation as as difficult as a conversation about pornography can be, one of the reasons that we're doing two episodes on this is that you and I kinda have found how vitally important it is to have conversations about this.

Kenna Millea [00:12:10]:

And how we're not. Like like, the at the world, We are not discussing this in our relationships.

Pat Millea [00:12:15]:

Just before we hit record on this episode. Like, one of the first thoughts that came in my mind is, like, the value of this kind of station because, like, the the only conversations that I can remember having, out loud about pornography were with, like, other 20-something bros, like, joking about pornography Mhmm. In college. So, like, not a serious conversation. Nothing that was constructive or helpful, certainly not wholly, and that, of course, is the least helpful conversation about pornography. What what I have I I can't remember a time that I had a really good intentional, a kind of constructive conversation about pornography, you know. I I have, like, one offs with with you and with other friends, things like that, but not in kind of an organic way where people can just talk about The way that it affects their life and the way that it's harmful and what we do with it.

Pat Millea [00:13:11]:

You know? Yeah. So I'm really glad that that we get to have this conversation. And and, You know, we are very aware, you and I, Kenna, and you listening at home there, that we're very aware that this is a topic that affects your life in one way or another. Mhmm. I mean, based on statistics alone, I'm sure that everyone listening to this episode either has personal experience of pornography use themselves or that they have been in relationship or are in relationship with someone who is using pornography.

Kenna Millea [00:13:43]:

Well yeah. And and the the statistics do tell us that 77% of Christian men between the ages of 18 and 30, so these emerging young adults and again, if we think, you know, primarily about those who are entering relationship, whether it's with a religious community, a diocese, or or, you know, in marriage are looking at porn, at least monthly. And a third of those are saying that they are addicted. Did they recognize that lack of control? And and even among older men, you know, I think again, like you were talking about these 20 year old bros walk you know, sitting around discussing it and making light of it and condoning one another's use. But Mhmm. Mhmm. Even in older men, you know, 31 to 49, 64% acknowledge viewing porn monthly, and 18% of them say, yeah. I'm addicted.

Kenna Millea [00:14:33]:

And I think that that is really telling about its pervasiveness. I I mean, I remember being in grad school And for marriage and family therapy and being in my sex therapy class and pornography was an intervention that we were encouraged to prescribe to couples to revitalize their connection and to help them overcome dysfunction and obstacles to intimacy. And And just so when you say, like, yeah, the culture out there isn't having these conversations, it's like the opposite. And so Mhmm. As you and I have been talking about it, and and we've been speaking publicly about, our own story related to pornography and its presence in our marriage and its impact on us. But, you know, knowing all along that we wanted to bring it to the podcast and have just been really praying about how we would go about doing that because there is so much good stuff out there, in terms of Christian and Catholic resources.

Pat Millea [00:15:30]:

Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:15:31]:

People who are doing amazing work, you know, helping us understand the impact of pornography on the the psyche, the brain, on our relationships, what it does to us spiritually. I'm thinking of Matt Fradd, certainly Jason Evert. I feel like he was an early voice on the scene in the Catholic Church. You introduced me to Fight the New Drug and to their ministry against pornography.

Pat Millea [00:15:56]:

Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:15:57]:

Covenant Eyes as a resource. And then recently, we were introduced to Rachael, Rachael Killackey's ministry, Magdala, and, the way in which she's really opening up the conversation around women's sexual addiction, which if you really wanna talk about something that's been in the dark and closeted, right. That topic

Pat Millea [00:16:16]:

We've assumed for decades that this is a men's problem. Women don't struggle with it. It's not a women's issue, which leaves women who use and are addicted to pornography feeling like they are absolute freaks that that no one can understand them. And, of course, That is not true. And Yeah. The more that we can normalize not the sinful behavior, but normalize the experience

Kenna Millea [00:16:39]:

The struggle.

Pat Millea [00:16:40]:

The better chance we have of feeling a sense of community that we can all work through this together. You know? And what strikes me about those stats that you rattled off, by the way, is again, those are statistics about Christian men. So this is not some problem that affects all of those Pagans out there, you know, like Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:16:57]:

This is this Unchurched, unlearned.

Pat Millea [00:16:59]:

Oh, yeah. The this insidious poison in the church. Right? That that it's infiltrated The hearts and souls of men and women, it's infiltrated marriages, families, relationships, friendships, dating, In relationships, engagements, it it's infiltrated and oozed its way into everything, you know. Big and again, as Christians, It's not like we are under any illusion that this is okay, you know. I mean, Jesus is really clear. He doesn't just condemn adultery as the physical sexual act of being in a sexual relationship with someone that is not your spouse, he takes it a step further and says, but I say to you, Anyone who has ever looked at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. And I I honestly have heard from different some of the high schoolers that I've worked In the past, also some folks my age who have said, well, porn pornography is not in the Bible. It's never mentioned in the Bible.

Pat Millea [00:17:55]:

So How can you tell me with certainty that every version of it is wrong, right, if Jesus never mentions it? And it's just the most hilarious logic. And I with with high schoolers, I'd be a little bit snarky and be like, oh, cool. So Jesus also never uses the words drunk driving or racism. But you're telling me you're you're fine with those too? That's not a problem. Right? Yeah. Like, we can easily take the principles and the truth that Jesus is laying forth And apply them to the 21st century and see that this is the most obvious example of what he's talking about.

Pat Millea [00:18:29]:

Look looking at, a woman, a man with lust in your heart, and especially when someone is in a relationship where they're not only their own dignity, but now they're betraying their spouse and the relationship that they share with that person. That so, again, we're We're not gonna belabor in either of these 2 episodes why pornography is wrong.

Pat Millea [00:18:51]:

There are great spiritual foundations of it. There's also a great video that I'll link, in the show notes From Russell Brand. I don't know if you know recognize the name Russell Russell Brand. He's a an actor you might recognize from different things. He's in a lot of frankly lewd movies that are really funny, but they're inappropriate, like, Forgetting Sarah Marshall and things like that. Oh my gosh. Yeah. But he himself, like, personally, is hilarious, intelligent and also shockingly, you know, like, traditional about a lot of things.

Kenna Millea [00:19:20]:

Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:19:20]:

So he has a a whole YouTube video, like an 8, 9 minute YouTube video that I watched again yesterday, that is him just railing against the evils of pornography. Mhmm. And he doesn't bring up anything faith based. It's all sociological, very secular studies that have been done about the effects of porn use Mhmm. On individuals, relationships, society, psychology, all that stuff. It's just there's all kinds of stuff out there to remind us this is bad for us.

Kenna Millea [00:19:48]:

Yeah. Well yeah. And so you said, Pat, weren't this our episode is not about explaining why pornography is evil. We are assuming that we're on the same page about these things, but, yeah, let's go ahead and link up A lot of those resources. I know there's a a pastoral letter out there from is it our church? Our US bishops

Pat Millea [00:20:06]:

Right.

Kenna Millea [00:20:07]:

And then certainly, some of the links from Fight the New Drug and especially if you just want to better understand the science. I know how much that helped me, in our in our own story, Pat,

Pat Millea [00:20:18]:

Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:20:19]:

Just, yeah, really trying to grow in empathy and also conviction, and just the data is really, really helpful. Fact finding is helpful.

Pat Millea [00:20:29]:

And I do wanna start with just a couple little kind of psychological points about that too. But first, let's maybe kind of put up the road map of these 2 episodes, because again, this isn't gonna be, this kind of top to bottom reasons that Pornography is bad like Matt Fradd does a great job with, and it's not gonna be some spiritual theological underpinnings of the evils of pornography, like a lot of other great priests and bishops have done, this is gonna be pretty focused on intrapersonal experiences. So me as a man, you as a woman, Kenna, how we have experienced this journey separately, individually first of all. And then the second episode that comes out right after this one will be interpersonally how you and I in our in our dating, in our engagement, and especially, of course, in our marriage, how we have navigated and, God willing, triumphing in this battle together. How we have had to work together in our relationship really restore a sense of healing and hope and and love in our relationship and our marriage too. So, we're gonna start off separate, and we're gonna come together for episode 2, which feels fairly appropriate. And by the way, before we get to episode 2 of this Pornography series where we talk about the way that you and I in our marriage and our relationship kinda have kinda fought through this together. We would love to hear from you out there, listener, about your questions about pornography, healing, marriage, faith.

Pat Millea [00:21:55]:

Whatever questions you have on your mind and heart about this, we're gonna address as many of them as we can in the next episode. So if you're listening to this in real time And you're within that 2 week window. Please let us know your questions. You can send us a message at at Instagram, @thiswholelifepodcast, on Facebook as well, or on our website, thiswholelifepodcast.com, there's a contact form, and all those links are in the description as well. So please please please Send us your questions. We'd love to hear what's on your mind so we can speak directly to you. But there there were two studies that are just shocking to me. And again, not shocking because they gave me new information, but shocking because they solidify what I already know with hard science.

Pat Millea [00:22:37]:

And again, I'll put these linked up in the show notes. One of them was a study that tracked the reward center of the brain when it was presented with pornography. So in in the first part of the study, the first thing that they did, heavy porn users were shown to be less capable of valuing long term rewards over short term. So okay. So that was the first part. They kinda found that in the 2nd part, the researchers divided those participants, the heavy pornography users, into 2 groups. And half of them were asked to abstain from pornography for 2 weeks. That was their job.

Pat Millea [00:23:14]:

The second half, were asked to abstain from their favorite food for those 2 weeks. Okay? So even though both groups were exercising some version of self control for these 2 weeks, only the ones who abstained from pornography were able to appreciate long term rewards better, not the ones who had given up their favorite food for 2 weeks. So what they discovered is that pornography, specifically, it has this unique ability to affect our patterns of self control. And that self control was not the key factor. Pornography was the key factor. So it's putting the horse before the cart. Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:23:51]:

Cause and effect?

Pat Millea [00:23:52]:

Cause and effect. Yeah. Right. Exactly. So They use the term hypofrontality in this study. Hypo meaning less than or lower. Right? And frontality meaning the frontal cortex of our brain, the prefrontal cortex.

Pat Millea [00:24:05]:

That's the command center of the brain. It's it's reason, logic, future planning

Kenna Millea [00:24:10]:

Executive functioning.

Pat Millea [00:24:11]:

Deferring present pleasure for long term rewards, things like that. And what they found is that pornography creates a state of hypofrontality in people over time. So it it literally we know this about the neuroplasticity of the brain that we talked about with Sofia Carozza in episode 20 of the podcast, that our brains are constantly moving and shifting in their structural integrity, even their structures, that our neurons are are arranging themselves in different ways based on our habits and our experiences. So pornography creates the structures in our brain that make us more susceptible to pornography long term. That which is, again, the nature of addiction. Right? That's creating the psychological environment necessary for addiction. And the second study, which is much more easy to sum up, is there is a, again, a secular study done in 2017 that found out that couples who are married and have pornography present in their marriage are 2 times more likely to be divorced.

Kenna Millea [00:25:12]:

Oh, for sure.

Pat Millea [00:25:13]:

Which, again, not surprising to me, but it was helpful for me to the hard science to back up what I already had seen present in the world. And the reason I bring up those studies are not just for interesting scientific data. I mean, again, this is stuff that I think a lot of us probably understood already. The reason I bring up those two studies is that I wanna revisit them later on because those two specific studies, I think, are very relevant to my experience with porn with pornography, to our shared ongoing victory over pornography together in our marriage. So I'll kinda point back to those as we proceed here.

Kenna Millea [00:25:49]:

Okay. Well, yeah, I mean, let's do that then. Let's Let's jump into, you know, kind of this 1st episode of of my perspective and your perspective, Pat. And I'm curious, when did you know that pornography was a problem for you?

Pat Millea [00:26:07]:

It's a really interesting question. I mean, on one hand, I think I knew immediately that this was a problem. Again, I I don't think that pornography is this well, sorry. It's insidious. I don't think it's a sneaky thing that looks okay on the front, But you discover later on that it's really bad. I think I knew the first time that I was at a buddy's house, And he had HBO, and we did not that I remember thinking, like again, I was I was probably 13, I think.

Kenna Millea [00:26:39]:

Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:26:40]:

And there's this Kind of dual experience for a 13 year old of, like, this is really exciting.

Kenna Millea [00:26:44]:

Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:26:45]:

There's something that draws me to this. I'm attracted to this somehow. And again, that's the sign of a healthy sexual desire. Like, that desire is not bad, but I should have listened to the second immediate reflex, which is this is not okay. This is not the way it's supposed to be. Mhmm. Right? That kind of internal cringe of, like, oh, something doesn't feel right here. No.

Pat Millea [00:27:04]:

You know? So immediately, I knew it wasn't okay, and I should have listened to that, and I certainly did not. I mean, I I it was like the classic story of just, going deeper and deeper into the cave of despair over the course of the years. You know, I would once the Internet became really accessible and omnipresent throughout high school for me, it was really easy to access different forms of pornography, getting to college where I had unlimited freedom and Internet access was just where the wheels toe totally fell off. So I would say that's probably the second kinda way point for me. Of, like, this is genuinely affecting my ability to engage with the world in a healthy way. Yeah. That's when I really was able to look at myself and, like, acknowledge this is an addiction. This is not just something that is a habit that no one needs to know about anymore.

Pat Millea [00:27:57]:

It's not just like a bad habit, quote, unquote. I didn't do something stupid. This is something evil, And I have become a slave to it now. You know? So that was kind of the the internal moment. And then, you know, I At a certain point in our dating relationship, I had disclosed to you that this was a part of my journey, part of my story.

Kenna Millea [00:28:19]:

Do you remember telling me?

Pat Millea [00:28:20]:

I vaguely do. Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:28:22]:

You do?

Pat Millea [00:28:22]:

Yeah. I remember lots of specific conversations in our dating and engagement.

Kenna Millea [00:28:26]:

Oh, really?

Pat Millea [00:28:27]:

And I can't remember which one was which sometimes.

Kenna Millea [00:28:29]:

The the very first time. Yeah. I I didn't see it coming. And you were Visiting me and my family over a break because, I was still, I think, in grad school at that point. And yeah. And I remember you sharing, and it was you were sharing from a place of, like, transparency, honesty, acknowledgments that this is a problem. This is I see this as a sin, Kenna, and I know that it affects you and asking for my prayers. And so I I remember being very encouraged by your, yeah, your forthrightness and, your integrity of coming to me to tell me about it.

Kenna Millea [00:29:10]:

So that was, yeah, early on. Probably within a few months of us seriously dating.

Pat Millea [00:29:15]:

Interesting. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. And, we we'll get back to this later, I'm sure. But I I certainly, on some level, expected for the sacrament of matrimony to solve all my problems. Because until we were married, I was I was genuinely trying as much as I thought I could at the time.

Pat Millea [00:29:34]:

I was fighting the good fight, but I don't know that I was really totally committed to it or totally serious about it. I certainly still had My pornography use in, like, this corner of my life that no one had to know about, and I was living, the definition of a double life, where I was, like, Leading campus ministry things. And I was, like, the Catholic guy. Right?

Kenna Millea [00:29:55]:

Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:29:55]:

And so I could not bear the thought of anybody finding out That I was this other person. You know?

Kenna Millea [00:30:03]:

Yeah. Which is part of the shame cycle. Right?

Pat Millea [00:30:05]:

Shame cycle.

Kenna Millea [00:30:05]:

Part of what perpetuates

Pat Millea [00:30:07]:

Correct.

Kenna Millea [00:30:07]:

Addiction.

Pat Millea [00:30:08]:

Drove me right back to this unhealthy coping mechanism in the first place, you know. And so I I thought and I hoped and I think I just was, like, wishing, like, fingers crossed, which I shouldn't do because we just did a whole episode about superstition 2 weeks ago. But I was hoping that marriage would be like the silver bullet. Like, God's grace, you know, our presence together in a home, like, that Shift in life would change things.

Kenna Millea [00:30:31]:

The change in our sexual relationship. I imagine you had these assumptions of like, okay. Now that we can

Pat Millea [00:30:38]:

Right.

Kenna Millea [00:30:38]:

Yeah. Fully consummate and, like, This will be fine.

Pat Millea [00:30:41]:

Right. Maybe it's because I can't have sex that I do this, you know, that kind of thing. And, the the final moment where I knew it was The worst possible problem was the night that you were in our living room with me, and you were just screaming obscenities at me. And It was and the thing is, like, I wasn't mad at you. You were saying very unkind things, but that I wouldn't even say unkind. You were saying very true, angry things Yeah. With maybe some other kind of vocabulary. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:31:13]:

I'm I don't really remember that night very well, but but I trust you.

Pat Millea [00:31:16]:

You blacked out a little bit. But it really well, like that that was a moment for me of, like, I my actions have tangible Painful effects on the person that I literally love the most in the world. Mhmm. And and again, like, Even that that was many years ago, and the the the habit still wasn't done after that point. You know? It Mhmm. It It took, whatever, probably 10 years to get into a cycle of addiction, and it took 10 or more years to get out of it, you know, which Isn't unheard of in the course of recovery of any kind, you know, but, there was a few different moments of when I knew it was a problem. So Yeah. What about you on your side of the fence? Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:31:57]:

What do you think?

Kenna Millea [00:31:58]:

Yeah. You know, so I think something that was really difficult for me was not just the pornography use and the way in which I definitely felt violated, and I felt Like, our marriage and and just the sacred act of sex was was violated, but it was the custody we We ended up calling it in our marriage, we still do, custody of the eyes issues. And so I don't know if if you can describe, like, what that is and how it's related to pornography use. But that for me, when when I felt like I was scanning constantly for you to be attracted to, drawn. I don't even know if you use that word, but but drawn to, focused on like, your focus will come off of me or come off of our kids and focused on someone else. That's probably when I knew that this was a really big issue.

Pat Millea [00:32:52]:

When we talked, maybe last week when we talked about this, you had talked about circumstances in our even in our marriage, where You would be in the state of, like, hyper vigilance and protecting me from myself, kind of.

Kenna Millea [00:33:05]:

Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:33:06]:

Which is one of the many characteristics of, like, a codependent relationship with an addict, right, where you felt like you had to overcompensate because I didn't have the skills to keep myself safe and therefore for it to care for you well. So, like, if we walked into a room full of people, you would be looking for anyone that was in the room, any human being that you thought might be A problem for me in terms of, you know, physical look or

Kenna Millea [00:33:30]:

modesty, you know,

Pat Millea [00:33:31]:

lust, things like that. And you would try to, like, position yourself us or make sure that I wasn't facing them. Like

Kenna Millea [00:33:37]:

It was a physical enactment of, like, this, like, emotional cognitive reality that I was living all the time of Mhmm. Of trying to be chaste for you. You know? And Yeah. And, of course, as we talk about this, the irony is prior to the superstition episode, a few episodes ago, we talked about let them struggle and not falling falling into the trap of overfunctioning and enabling. And that's totally what I was doing. So, good job, Kenna. Like, a way to, way to speak to something you know so well. So yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:34:09]:

So for me, I'd say that that was more of the issue. Like, it was it wasn't just that pornography became a source of Conflict for you and I when you would fall into use or something like that. It it was starting to seep into every interaction. And and, honestly, I I imagine there were times, especially early in our marriage, that I just, like, didn't wanna go out because nothing felt safe to me.

Kenna Millea [00:34:32]:

Like, even a trip to Target Mhmm. You know, felt like, oh my gosh. There's gonna be too many girls in yoga pants. Like like, even that was overwhelming to me because I was caught in this lie that it was my job to, like you said, protect you from yourself.

Pat Millea [00:34:46]:

Right. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:34:47]:

That later. But but yeah. So that would be my perspective. Of

Pat Millea [00:34:49]:

Yeah. The custody of the eyes things has been just an ongoing thing for me and therefore for us too that I I I mentioned earlier that in college was when I started really looking at just the the amount of pornography use that I was giving into. And when it started to really settle in, like, this is actually affecting my life. The custody of the eyes things is one of the ways that I saw that. That it became not a willing choice, but a genuine reflex to just scan the world for attractive women, you know, which is not it's not an unreasonable leap, because the nature of pornography is you just scan the internet until you find something that lights up your dopamine in your brain and gets you excited about this one particular thing. And, that's one of the many dangers of pornography in the way that it degrades real human relationships is you trade the depth, and the difficulty, and the beauty of having one person in front of you who is probably beautiful, also probably sometimes not that exciting, you know, just a normal human being.

Pat Millea [00:35:55]:

You trade that for an unending stream of perfectly available and perfectly willing Images on a screen. You know? And so my my brain had learned the lesson. Well, you just go on to the next person. You know? And so I would walk around the world, walk into a room, a sporting event, a concert, Target like you mentioned, and it genuinely was a true reflex. That doesn't mean there's no sin in it because the the the circumstances that brought me to the place of reflex are certainly morally culpable even if the reflex itself was not a willful choice, you know. Mhmm. But that's something that really has has taken a lot of work to try to get out of that mindset.

Pat Millea [00:36:37]:

And, You know, we'll mention this at many points, I'm sure. The the nature of recovery is that this will be a lifelong process for me. Mhmm. You know, that this is not you talk about people who are recovering alcoholics, recovering, narcotics, addicts, things like that, they are in recovery until they are in heaven, basically, because it's a lifelong process. And and that way of of my eyes engaging with the world in a healthy way will always be part of that struggle for me.

Kenna Millea [00:37:06]:

Yeah. Yeah. So I think, you know, as you talk about that kind of objectification that came with your viewing of pornography. There was something in myself to of feeling this loss of worth, knowing of your use, and just, Yeah. I I mean, I I brought stuff with me too. Right? I had been in previous relationships. I had been in a pretty worldly culture, that objectified women, that, really did not honor, like, sex and did not see it as something that, is so beautiful and so holy and so godly in the context of marriage. Like, that was, not messages I had been raised on.

Kenna Millea [00:37:52]:

And so, coming in was this challenge for me to recover that sense of value and worth, and I was, like, already in the hole. And so then to have, you know, a significant other and then a husband whose behaviors and actions and choices were were further compounding that lie that I'm not enough, that I'm not worthy. It it was it was huge. And so, yeah, you talk about that horrible night in our living room where stuff really hit the fan. And I I it was my breaking point. Like, I just I remember being like, I am stuck in this marriage, and I'm committed to this man. And I and I believe in this sacrament, and I wanna uphold the sacrament. And and yet, like, how can the one I love so much to be the source of this hurt, you know, instead of one who brings healing and aid to it Right.

Kenna Millea [00:38:48]:

Like Right. Adds on to it. And so so yeah. So I can acknowledge, like, what I brought to the marriage for my part, and then the way you know, I won't get into all the psychoanalytics about how Freud would say that you are exactly the man that I had to marry because of what I brought to the marriage, in order to work this out. But, you know, kind of before the show, Pat, or before the recording, we talked about, like, what's our one prayer that that we hope people gained from this episode for each of us. And and my a peace of mind is that, that if if you are someone who is in relationship with someone who uses porn or has a disordered, yes, a sexual addiction, that that if there is any way in which You have gotten tangled up in that, that you take that personally, which is like an absurd statement. Right? Of of course, I would take it personally kinda like, how do I not take that personally? It's literally a sin against my person, that my, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife, is using. But but, man, there are so many ways that, I didn't even realize how I was tangled up in your behavior.

Kenna Millea [00:40:07]:

And, again, back to that enmeshment and that codependence, but I'd taken it upon myself to believe that I was the reason that you couldn't heal. Mhmm. Right? Like, if I were more beautiful, more sexy, more thin, more fit, more I had bigger boobs. Like, who knows? You know? Like like, just all these things. I wasn't enough, though. Right? Is that is that fundamental negative core belief, that that trauma cognition we say. But but I just was living in that world. And And in that way, I was I was cooperating with the evil one.

Kenna Millea [00:40:41]:

Right? He had me hook, line, and sinker. Right. Had me exactly where he wanted me because we were pitted against each other. We'll get more into that next episode. But, but yeah. That that for those listening who maybe are in the shoes that I have been in and and was in for so long, that you would maybe be honest about some of the ways that you are taking on responsibility and start to disentangle yourself.

Pat Millea [00:41:08]:

Right. And I I I've I've told you this before, but I will say it again. It none of that was ever about you being not beautiful enough, not attractive enough, not interesting enough, not sexy enough. Right? And the irony is that that is one of the things that that I consoled myself with in the midst of my pornography use during our marriage too.

Pat Millea [00:41:34]:

is that I would say to myself, like, it's not like I don't desire Kenna. It's not like I'm not attracted to her. It's not like I don't desire to have sex with her, frankly, as much as possible now that we're married. Like, those desires remained and those were very present in in my psyche and in my soul. So I I did have an existing healthy desire and attraction to you. And so I consoled myself by saying, so it can't be that big of a deal, because It hasn't, like, stolen my sexual desire for my wife, you know. Mhmm. It just like I could add that to the pile of insanity that I told myself as an addict to justify what I was doing.

Pat Millea [00:42:15]:

Right?

Kenna Millea [00:42:15]:

That's that's the way of the evil one. Right? Like, he's such a slippery snake to get in there Yeah. And to not, you know, seemingly tell you, like, I'm not attacking the most important human relationship. Or, you know, pornography is not undermining the most important human relationship in your I've passed. So don't worry about it. You're good. You're still in a good place.

Pat Millea [00:42:35]:

Right. To the point of, like, even I I told you this a little while ago. Like, I would look at the the type of pornography that I would use. And I would tell myself, which is maybe true in some way, some spectrum. This isn't super perverse pornography. Like, they're the most evil, evil stuff you can imagine is out there on the Internet. I don't mess around with that stuff. I use okay pornography.

Kenna Millea [00:42:59]:

I I didn't know there was a spectrum, but okay.

Pat Millea [00:43:02]:

That's again, it's the the insanity of sin as Peter Kreeft talks about a lot. Just the the the stories that I was comfortable talking to myself about to justify what I was doing. And, of course, neither of those deals with the true issue, which is that I I couldn't convince myself. I I could tell myself all the stories I want. I know it's wrong. I know I'm hurting you. I know that I made for more than this. So whether I am consoling myself with a lie or whether I'm just trying to tell myself it's not a big deal.

Pat Millea [00:43:32]:

It's not a big deal. Not a big deal. It still results in the shame, and I've had a very tricky relationship with shame for many, many years. You and I talked about that in our marriage as well. That shame is a really easy place for me to get stuck, and for me to be comfortable hunkering down and feeling sorry for myself forever. So it it was really easy for me to feel the shame, and then you're like, well, I guess I'll never get over it. And either go that direction which is despair that I can't do anything about it, or I don't want to do anything about it, which is at least honest, but not helpful, not holy, you know.

Pat Millea [00:44:11]:

So either one of those, I can't do it or I don't want to do it, bring me back to shame, sends me back to pornography, and I didn't have the again, remember, my brain had been trained for 10, 15 years at this point to not put up a fight. So pornography had changed my brain enough that I didn't have the weapons to fight against it, to use good self control. So it was just an easier easier way to give in year after year after year. So it's taken untold amounts of confession, therapy, conversations with you, accountability with friends of mine to get to a place now where I finally and starting to reset some of those structures to, like, set up the wall outside the castle again to let none of the the enemy get in anymore. You know?

Kenna Millea [00:44:59]:

Well and I wonder if if I think in this episode, we're gonna talk about kind of what turned the ship around. For you, and than what was my reaction. So, I mean, what was that? It wasn't the night of obscenities in our living room. Like, you acknowledge that, well, that was terrifying, and thanks to God, we never had to repeat that again. But, like, what was it then?

Pat Millea [00:45:19]:

Because that night definitely put me in a place of shame again, And I don't think it was because what you were doing. I think it's because I didn't have the maturity and the humility to be motivated by my sin to be different. I think I was stuck in the place still of, like, I guess it's just who I am. This is, my identity is my sin, you know. The biggest turning point, honestly, was a while back when, I was as open about it with you and with my best friend that I had ever been in my life. And it was one of the more embarrassing times for me to do it, because I had been, you know, on and off sober for years at that point. So there were there were long periods of time, months, years even of sobriety, of being clean and free from pornography.

Pat Millea [00:46:11]:

And then there was another stretch of falling, failing, getting back into a habit. And it really did come down to that point of, like, alright. I I I can't even if you're listening now and you've been through something like this, you know what this feels like. But the feeling internally of, like, I every cell in my body hates the idea of telling these people what I'm about to tell them. Like, this, mothing could be more internally painful than this.

Kenna Millea [00:46:39]:

Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:46:39]:

Not like physical suffering, not even really spiritual suffering, but just, like, relational suffering. Like, I'm about to disappoint the two people that I care about most in the world. You know? I'm the editor, so I can cut out any of this. That'll be fine.

Kenna Millea [00:46:58]:

You stop that right now.

Pat Millea [00:47:01]:

And, the so the I had told you before, and I had told other friends of mine. I had certainly been a confession to way too many priests who probably got sick of it over a while after a while. I had told people before, but for whatever reason, this this version of telling people of disclosing it was way more of, like, damn it, I'm done. Like, I I can't do it anymore. So it's like the the the feeling of, like, opening the doors and, like, letting the the the sunlight and the fresh air into the haunted house where you find out that there's actually no skeletons or ghosts or anything. It's just like a creepy curtain and a broom with a sheet on it in the corner, you know, things like that. That that that kind of transparency, vulnerability, even with two people, literally two people, that's all it took, just changed everything for me.

Pat Millea [00:47:56]:

And I'll add to that the technological transparency of Covenant Eyes, which we mentioned earlier, that now I've got apps on my devices that send a report every week to my best friend, and he can see, like, garbled, but he can see screenshots of any problematic content that have been on my phone or my computer. You know? And I am very motivated to not let him it's apparently

Kenna Millea [00:48:22]:

Shame has an upside sometimes.

Pat Millea [00:48:23]:

It does. No. But that's the thing. Like, JP2 talked about that before that we we always think of shame as a bad thing, and one version of shame is. But he talked about the kind of shame that Adam and Eve had in the garden after they sinned. That That there was a thing about the beauty of their bodies that they felt ashamed, and it's actually good that they felt ashamed. Mhmm. Because the thing is so valuable.

Pat Millea [00:48:47]:

Mhmm. And they knew the value of it, but they knew that it had been betrayed all of a sudden that that that feeling was good. It wasn't I am the worst. It's it's I I should have done something different with this treasure, you know. Mhmm. So that's the kind of shame that I That I, like, put myself out there, and it really, you know, who God willing, please, Lord, let this be free for me for the rest of my life. But up until now at least, that has been, like, the biggest turning point ever. The, there's a a pastor that I love to follow on Instagram, Tim Ross, who is a great evangelical Protestant pastor, very concerned about mental health and about his past with Pornography use and trauma and addiction, things like that.

Pat Millea [00:49:32]:

And his one of his big catch phrases is vulnerability is my superpower, which I love from a Christian perspective, especially, but just as human beings that the more that we can be open with each other instead of me, like, partitioning off this part of my life that no one can see, it can't hurt you if you don't see it

Kenna Millea [00:49:51]:

Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:49:52]:

Is, again, a lie of the evil one. So that that kind of vulnerability was a game changer for me.

Kenna Millea [00:49:57]:

Well, thank you, first of all, for your vulnerability. And

Pat Millea [00:50:02]:

I've been told it's my superpower.

Kenna Millea [00:50:04]:

It is your superpower. And and I recognize that the moments that I've had the most hope for our marriage have not actually been necessarily these long stretches of sobriety for you, but it is when you are vulnerable with me. When You when you are the one who takes the initiative, you know how much this matters to me. When you take the initiative to come to me and to say I'm struggling or, you know, there have even been times when you haven't actively used pornography, but you're like, the temptation is rising up, or I'm noticing

Pat Millea [00:50:38]:

Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:50:39]:

Myself fall into some old patterns. And and so I just I wanna underscore that for you and for everyone who's listening that it cannot be understated, and it should not be underrated. Not only between people, but I think it is our superpower against the evil one. Right? Like, he hates the light and vulnerabilities when we get to bring stuff into the light. Mhmm. And, you know, for my part, when I say, like, what helped turn the ship around? Because, know, there's this this question of like, okay, Pat. When did you get clean, or or how are you working your recovery now? Right. But then there's this question of, like, How did you guys restore trust in your marriage? Like, kinda how did you how did you overcome? How did you kick the addiction of being hypervigilant and overfunctioning and enmeshed with Pat, which, again, we'll talk a little bit about in the next episode.

Kenna Millea [00:51:32]:

But I think for my part, again, to go back to this drum that I seem to keep beating about recognizing how your use It was touching on this wound of mine. And actually, so long as you were using I was thinking about this as you were sharing just now, but So long as you were using, it was actually really easy for me to see you as the problem.

Pat Millea [00:51:55]:

I was literally just thinking that even before you said it.

Kenna Millea [00:51:58]:

Yeah. Yeah. It really was. It was easy for me to go, well, the reason I have low self esteem, the reason that I, you know, am self critical and have this, you know, voice in my head that tells me that I'm never enough and that I have to hustle for my worth and all these things. It's because I have a husband who doesn't value me. And and so as you got sober and and even as I just started to pull away from, being enmeshed with you, I realized, like, nope. I carry this. There's a lot of contributors to this wound.

Kenna Millea [00:52:28]:

And and so, you know, certainly a lot through therapy, spiritual direction, prayer, Conversation with you and and good friends, have been able to really see the roots of that lie, We see how, you know, it has been certainly contributed to in our marriage, but, but that was what helped me turn it around. Because then, And I mean this in the healthiest, most charitable way. I was detached from your use. I no longer, Right? When when you fell into sin, that's a common phrase that's used in recovery language. Like when you used again or told me that you were tempted or or I felt offended by the way you lacked custody of the eyes in public or whatever it was. Yeah. I was upset about the way that you were not honoring our marriage, but it wasn't the same criticism to my personhood that it had been for all the years Right.

Kenna Millea [00:53:24]:

For for many years of my life prior to even meeting you. And so to me, that was a new level of freedom and and a new level of truth that I could live in. Again, it's not that it wasn't hurtful. It's not that I'm unaffected, But there was this detachment of, like, he has got to figure out his stuff. He's got to figure out how to rewire his brain. Like, you know, just, Like, absolutely, I'm gonna support you, but, like, you needed to get your accountability ducks in a row. And I, from my part, needed to look at the deeper healing so that I could stop feeling like, you know, a vat of salt was being rubbed into this very open wound.

Kenna Millea [00:54:04]:

That I had. And so, Yeah. Ironically and and maybe that's why we're doing these episodes with this structure, but, like, it took us going separately, figuring stuff out

Pat Millea [00:54:14]:

Exactly.

Kenna Millea [00:54:15]:

In order to be able to come back.

Pat Millea [00:54:17]:

I think about that dynamic a lot when we talk about the way that we've dealt with pornography separately because, it really did. I think 1, we we certainly had to deal with the immediate practical reality of Pornography. Like, how do we get rid of it today? Not tomorrow, today. You know, like, today is a very acceptable time. Today is the day of salvation. Right? That certainly was like the presenting problem. That was that was the content we were dealing with. But beneath that Is this reality that we had gotten into this dynamic where you were the good spouse and I was the bad one.

Pat Millea [00:54:53]:

And both of us felt that Dynamic in our own on our own side of the fence. We both certainly acted like it at times. That I was really comfortable being the bad one because It was easy for me to just, like, dote on you and just give you lavish compliments and do ridiculous acts of service. Like, Every time that I would get in trouble, quote unquote, I would just, like, clean the house and they would I would I would hope that that would make you feel better, you know. Like, I was we settled into that dynamic, And that needed as much, if not more healing than the content issue that pornography brought us, you know. And that's been one of the really valuable ways that we've approached pornography specifically is looking looking under the hood and seeing, like, alright, This is what's on the surface, but what are the internal, emotional, psychological, spiritual things going on that are that are bringing up this problem in in my life, my own particular sin, and the way that it affects our marriage too.

Kenna Millea [00:55:56]:

Yeah. Well and I've been reading Jay Springer's unwanted, his book, unwanted, which is very, very popular, around, unwanted sexual behavior and addiction. And and he, you know, he he goes so far as to say things like Covenant Eyes aren't helpful, and I think may and maybe I've misunderstood him. I understand that he's saying it's not the whole answer.

Pat Millea [00:56:17]:

Right.

Kenna Millea [00:56:18]:

Right? There's this 1-2 punch, like you said, Pat, of of addressing the content of, like, how do we get this out of the house? It's toxic. How do we remove it? And, also, Springer's book is has been wonderful for me to, answer the reflection questions at the end of each chapter And to to do this deeper dive of, like, what is this cycle? What are these wounds? He calls them depravities. You know, things that we're longing for that that, we can find in our unwanted sexual behaviors and and disordered behavior. But, anyhoo, so we'll link up Springer's book, yeah, in the show notes. And, yeah, I just I remember, you know, kind of reading it out loud like I do with books to you. I tell you I'm just gonna read you a quote, and then I, like, the whole chapter. But but you were you were like, yeah. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:57:03]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and so recognizing, like, a lot of what he was sharing had been the meandering path, you know, that you were on. Mhmm. But when you finally, yeah, I think as you would say, we're able to do more of that healing and uprooting of the the sin and the the habit. It was from this place of depth, and and That's really uncomfortable.

Kenna Millea [00:57:28]:

It's really hard.

Pat Millea [00:57:29]:

It's terrible situation.

Kenna Millea [00:57:31]:

You. You know? So I I have Just the utmost gratitude and respect for the work that you have done on behalf of our family. And I and I know for you and for the salvation of your own soul, but, but I I I do not, yeah, I don't take lightly the commitments that you have made to us, like, through working your recovery. So Yeah. Thank you. Good.

Pat Millea [00:57:53]:

You're welcome. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:57:55]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:57:55]:

I, the the 2 things about unwanted. First of all, I would totally agree with him that Covenant Eyes is certainly not enough. Right? If someone would say to me, if you were really in recovery, you wouldn't need Covenant Eyes. You wouldn't need accountability software. I would I would say, you're right. I I hope to one day not need this, like, the the gutters on the bowling lane. Right? I hope to not need that structure someday, But I would rather have that and avoid the sin Yeah. And get trained in the way of holiness and self control again Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:58:29]:

Than aim for a Hail Mary on on first down and come up short and throw an interception instead. You know? So so that's the first thing. Yes. It in a perfect world, accountability software is unnecessary. I'm telling you, It's necessary for a lot of us. Yes. The second thing is, that that kind of, like, psychological, emotional, like, at the heart of the issue that he gets at, That for me was a lot of the scary stuff really because for so long, it was just like it it was like, I'll go to confession, and then I'm just gonna grit my teeth.

Pat Millea [00:59:02]:

I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna make it better. I'm gonna fix the problem, and nobody needs to know. And that's the best of both worlds. I don't have to tell anyone that I'm doing the shameful thing, and I can do it myself. And I can be the the one who fixes it, you know. But then when we started to get first of all, when that didn't work, shocker, then we were faced with the real I was faced with the reality of, okay, if I really am Serious about eliminating this from my life. Not messing around with it, not getting rid of it kind of, but maybe down the road, you know, who knows? Like, no.

Pat Millea [00:59:32]:

If I'm serious, Then I'm gonna have to get way deeper, and I'm gonna have to get into my feelings. I'm gonna have to get into the ways that I look at myself that are unhealthy and unwanted. I'm gonna have to reconcile those with your wounds and the ways that our our woundedness kinda bumps up against each other. It makes us both hurt in ways that are unexpected. I'm gonna have to do much harder work than just throwing up some accountability software and hoping for the best. Like, I'm gonna have to get really deep, and it's gonna be brutally and it was Brutally hard sometimes.

Kenna Millea [01:00:05]:

Yeah.

Pat Millea [01:00:05]:

It was way harder than just trying to avoid pornography, but it's also I I don't know about the only, but certainly the healthiest way to, like, genuine recovery.

Kenna Millea [01:00:16]:

Yeah. And and, Again, so much for next episode. But I think when we talk about our marriage and we talk about what I would say are, like, New depths that we were able to go to as a result of that work, that soul searching, that soul healing that that you embarked on, like, I think that's apparent. You know, that that doesn't come from accountability software. Yeah. That really comes from that deeper psychological goal in spiritual work. Right. So yeah.

Pat Millea [01:00:45]:

Yeah.

Kenna Millea [01:00:45]:

So much to look forward to.

Pat Millea [01:00:47]:

Oh, there's your teaser.

Kenna Millea [01:00:48]:

Yep. Well, Pat, do you have a challenge by choice?

Pat Millea [01:00:51]:

I do. Yeah. And I think, you know, we had talked about the if you're listening to this right now, chances are that you are in 1 of 2 camps Or possibly both groups at the same time, you know. Group number 1 is someone who is using pornography or is in some stage of the recovery Process that pornography is a part of your own personal history. Again, male or female, married or single, ordained, like, religious, like, That you've got pornography in your life story somehow. Group 2 would be someone who maybe you have never struggled with this particular cross. This is not A sin that you have born, in your life or certainly not persistently, but you know and love people who are carrying this Burden that that they have it in their past or they're currently using now. Maybe a spouse, maybe a a child, maybe a best friend, you know, whatever the case may be.

Pat Millea [01:01:45]:

So we've got 2 separate challenges. One for me to the users or past users out there, then, Kenna, you've got one for the ones who are loved ones. So if if I would say the challenge by choice for anyone who is using pornography or has in the past and and that dragon still kind of, like, rears up its head sometimes is to be as thoughtful and courageous as you can about being transparent and vulnerable with someone about it. And again, even if your your organs feel like they are going to melt because of how much it is terrifying to tell somebody about this part of your life. If if only from a weird guy that you're hearing in your AirPods right now, I can tell you that that fear is rewarded with love and humility and freedom once the lights have been turned on and the shutters have been thrown open. So, even if if it's the last thing in this world that you would like to do, bringing that sin, that that darkness into the light and seeing the way that the Lord can shine his light on it and the way that your loved ones can be there for you in the process too.

Kenna Millea [01:02:58]:

Yeah. Those human relationships are conduits of grace Right. And conduits of compassion and mercy too. Yeah. Okay. I love that. Okay. So for For those of you listening who are in relationship with someone who is using or, again, is is working their recovery, perhaps addicted.

Kenna Millea [01:03:15]:

Taking the time to name what is the wound that their use touches in you. So I mentioned, for example, that that that wound, that lie that I had fallen for, that I was not enough, and that I had to hustle for my worth. Naming that wound, and then considering what next step can you take in addressing that and healing that wound. So, you know, for for me, that was a lot of different things. It was spiritual direction. It was therapy. It was talking about it with friends, but it was a lot of journaling too. But what's the next step? So similar parallel par paralleling Pat in the department of courage, to to also bring this to light, your own woundedness, because I guarantee as a human out there in the world, it's touching on a wound.

Kenna Millea [01:04:11]:

So know that that we have taken steps similar to this, and we continue to do so. And so we are with you, listeners. We are with you.

Pat Millea [01:04:21]:

And not only are we with you, but the Lord of the universe who died and rose is with you.

Kenna Millea [01:04:27]:

He's already triumphant. Right? He's already promised us victory.

Pat Millea [01:04:30]:

So you just have to step into the victory that he's won for you. So so let's pray to him

Kenna Millea [01:04:35]:

Entrust ourselves to him.

Pat Millea [01:04:35]:

And invite him into this conversation too. Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, amen. Lord Jesus, you are the author of life, And you are the author of love. Lord, you've created us all for a good and worthy purpose, and you have created us, in your image. And you've invited us into your likeness through the sacraments and through unity with your church. And, Lord, we pray for your presence with us tonight. We invite you into this conversation and into all the depths of our hearts that are that are farthest from you, that are mired in shame, in despair, in awareness of our own sinfulness, brokenness, in the pain that, some of us might feel in being hurt by the use of others of pornography and sexual addiction, I pray that you would meet them and console them with your sacred heart. And I pray, Lord, in a particular way for all those who are struggling with addiction of any kind, especially with sexual addiction and pornography use.

Pat Millea [01:05:51]:

Lord, you know the the struggles of their hearts. You know what they're going through, and you know Their deepest needs, that are being, unmet by the use of pornography. So I pray for you to Extend your healing and mercy upon them, lord, and also to to lead them in the direction of true healing and wholeness That they can be restored to the son or daughter that you created them to be, that they can live in freedom and in truth Of their own dignity and identity in their relationships and especially in their relationship with you, Lord. Mother Mary, please pray for us. Help us to, have hearts that are becoming more and more immaculate like yours, And help us to draw closer to your son through your prayers. And we ask all this, Jesus, in your perfect name. Amen.

Kenna Millea [01:06:47]:

Amen.

Pat Millea [01:06:49]:

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen.

Kenna Millea [01:06:52]:

Thank you, my love, for another just meaningful conversation where, I get to be more in love with you and more in love with the the soul that god has placed in you. And I'm excited for the ways that we are going to use our hurt in the past, to glorify the Lord and to, yeah, Just to kick the evil one in the teeth with all this, if I'm being honest. So, listeners, we are getting ready for part 2 of this, where we'll share more about our story. And we'd love to know, you know, kind of coming out of this episode or just in general, Are there things that you hope that we'll touch on? Are there questions that you have? We'll do our best to respond, by by including it in our outline for the part 2 of this 2 part series. So get in touch with us on Instagram, @thiswholelifepodcast, Facebook, This Whole Life podcast, or feel free to use our website with its contact form, thiswholelifepodcast.com, and there's links in the description to all of those as well. So, please feel free to, yeah, let us know what it is you're looking for. Clearly, nothing is off limits. Or if it is, we'll let you know.

Kenna Millea [01:08:05]:

But, but vulnerability is the name of this game. And, so thanks so much for being with us, and until next time. God bless See you all. This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Pat Millea [01:08:40]:

Done. Good job. I love you.