Ep35 Unified: Overcoming Pornography Together

"It is necessary that the heroic becomes daily and that the daily becomes heroic."
~ Saint Zélie Martin

In this fallen world, there are particular evils that require the grace of God and the support of loved ones to overcome. Pornography certainly falls into this category. In the second half of the conversation about pornography, Pat & Kenna discuss the consequences that brokenness and addiction had for their marriage. They also recall key moments that led them to reconciliation and deeper intimacy.

Loving relationships, especially marriages, are the ones most affected by pornography and sin of any kind. And it's also true that loving relationships and marriages are one of the most powerful agents of healing on the path to recovery and wholeness. How can we restore a sense of unity and connection when hope seems lost in a relationship? How do we even begin to build trust when there has been so much betrayal? Join Pat & Kenna for this forthright conversation, and get ready to move toward authenticity and communion!

Episode 35 Show Notes

Chapters:
0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
11:19: Continuing the conversation on pornography
14:29: Responding to listener questions
26:18: How healing & hope looked in our marriage
41:33: Earning & building trust
50:10: United together against a threat to our marriage
55:23: Challenge By Choice

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

Check us out on Instagram & Facebook

Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 11:19 Continuing the conversation on pornography
• 14:29 Responding to listener questions
• 26:18 How healing & hope looked in our marriage
• 41:33 Earning & building trust
• 50:10 United together against a threat to our marriage
• 55:23 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Pat Millea [00:00:00]:

It wasn't my battle to fight, and I'll tell you when it's done. It wasn't your problem to solve, and you have to fix me. It was both of us hand in hand.

Kenna Millea [00:00:17]:

Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of Faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm with my husband, Pat Millea, A Catholic speaker, musician, and leader, we invite you to our kitchen table. Okay. Not literally, but but you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes. We're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes. It is not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care. So let's get talking about This Whole Life.

Kenna Millea [00:01:11]:

Welcome back to this Whole Life podcast. It is so good to be with you for another episode. My darling, my love, Welcome. Welcome.

Pat Millea [00:01:19]:

So good.

Kenna Millea [00:01:20]:

To a Saturday night recording.

Pat Millea [00:01:22]:

Welcome. Yeah. It's a party night tonight, baby. And maybe you're listening to this on a Monday morning, and you are not the least bit in party mode. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:01:33]:

You know what? I'm not in party mode either, people. I'm in pajama mode. So welcome. Welcome. This is why we only do the audio.

Pat Millea [00:01:42]:

Party mode ends for you at 7:30 PM.

Kenna Millea [00:01:44]:

Oh, man. You know that ambient light? It's already it's already getting warmed up.

Pat Millea [00:01:48]:

Oh, gosh. I do still sometimes marvel at the fact that back in the day, in a different former life in college. We used to begin our night out on, like, a Friday, Saturday night at 11 o'clock at night. Begin. We would we would arrive at an establishment at 11 o'clock.

Kenna Millea [00:02:08]:

I'd currently be thinking about what I'm gonna wear, yeah, on any given Saturday

Pat Millea [00:02:13]:

We would return back to our domicile at 3:30 in the morning or something like that.

Kenna Millea [00:02:18]:

Oh, man.

Pat Millea [00:02:19]:

And then, like, it was time to watch a movie and not go to bed like I just and my biologically I was made for that kind of a time frame But the well-being of my brain and soul is better off this way. So Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:02:31]:

Because you're part owl.

Pat Millea [00:02:33]:

Correct.

Kenna Millea [00:02:34]:

You nocturnal creature you. Well, welcome, My darling.

Pat Millea [00:02:37]:

You too. Welcome.

Kenna Millea [00:02:38]:

And to all of our listeners, welcome back. It is so good to be with you, so good to be Continuing this conversation, this vulnerable and, yeah, just vulnerable, pretty raw, Delicate conversation. Once again, we are giving you that, that moment to find a different episode for your Child to listen to. If you are a parent or someone there, with a small being with ears that, maybe, you are accustomed to listening to these episodes with, and this topic is perhaps not one that is appropriate for them quite yet, at least not in this way. So I'm buying you some time here and actually buy you more time because I'm gonna ask you, my darling, for a change of pace For your high and hard.

Pat Millea [00:03:28]:

Woah. I know.

Kenna Millea [00:03:29]:

Take a breath. Take a beat.

Pat Millea [00:03:30]:

Mixing it up.

Kenna Millea [00:03:31]:

And then give me your answers.

Pat Millea [00:03:28]:

My, so my hard lately, and listener, you may hopefully, you don't hear this come through in the episode because I'll try to edit it out, but I've been a little bit sick lately, which is kind of a pain, and certainly not significantly ill, but just, like, annoyingly, like, coughing

Kenna Millea [00:03:51]:

Just enough.

Pat Millea [00:03:51]:

Phlegmy, low energy type of sickness, that has been just, like, annoying day to day. Like, I don't love having, like, Wheezy breaths and tight chest and coughing fits and stuff like that. But then there was one night in particular in the past week where I just felt like I got hit by a truck at at 6 o'clock at night, which is the least convenient time of the day to feel sick and, like, I got hit by a truck. So it's the hard of, like, Feeling physically sick, which is no fun, and I don't like feeling like that. But then kind of, like, the guilt of just having to leave you to deal with dinner and bedtime prep and all that stuff and being useless for all that stuff. So, so thank you for doing it that night. I appreciate that, and I'm happy to return the favor sometime that you don't feel well. And

Kenna Millea [00:04:38]:

If I were a lesser woman, I would I would put on social media the pictures of you looking just comatose. I mean, I think you maybe were on the couch, and our youngest perched on your stomach reading books.

Kenna Millea [00:04:51]:

She could not have given 2 toots If you were coherent enough to be listening to her stories.

Pat Millea [00:04:59]:

Correct.

Kenna Millea [00:04:58]:

But she was just so happy to have a warm body to snuggle up with, And it was hilarious and precious all at once. So you say useless, and I'm going, I don't know. Totally useless. Like, she was really entertained.

Pat Millea [00:05:11]:

It was a more fun couch for her than usual. So that I'm happy to do anytime, by the way. It's just lay on the couch

Kenna Millea [00:05:17]:

Oh, you.

Pat Millea [00:05:18]:

And have a child sit on me and read. It's totally fine.

Kenna Millea [00:05:10]:

Noted.

Pat Millea [00:05:10]:

I'm just offering. I'm just trying to be generous. Take it or leave it your your call my high lately is that I've been really enjoying the the 2nd season of The Bear the TV show that I referenced a year or so ago on the same podcast early early on in This Whole Life, and, I it's it's the caveat, right, of, like, this is not a family friendly show per se. Like, there's no there's no real, like, terrible content, but there's tons of swearing. So do not watch this show with your kids just like this episode of the podcast. But it's just such a great, like, deep and meaningful and sometimes really gritty and raw and, like, human show that deals with, like, really tough family dynamics and addiction and, mental illness in some ways, and, competing priorities. Like, is someone gonna commit their whole life to this restaurant that they love that the family's owned it for years or are they gonna have kind of an a healthier life but maybe the restaurant suffers because of that you know like trying to wrestle with big questions like that it's just so good and when I referenced season 1 last year some folks came back to me that are friends of ours and said, like, hey. I tried that show that you suggested, and I did not like it at all.

Kenna Millea [00:06:45]:

Oh really?

Pat Millea [00:06:46]:

So here's the thing. It's art. You can like it or not. If you don't like it, I won't be offended. If you give it 5 minutes and you hate it, that's fine. I would also suggest that maybe the 99% rating on Rotten Tomatoes would say that I have some clout behind me. But if you don't like it, totally fine. It's not for everyone, but it is for 99% of us.

Pat Millea [00:07:08]:

Just kidding. Just the pretentious people that like to think we're right about subjective things. Anyway I I really like it and it's really good and I'm on the like 2nd to last episode of the season and they tend to end incredibly well. Season 1 did at least. So I'm excited. It's great.

Kenna Millea [00:07:27]:

And I've been grateful that you've just highlighted the best 30 second snippets for me and allowed me to get the gist. Without having to live through the angst.

Pat Millea [00:07:38]:

It's like when you find a book that you love and you read me 1 chapter that matters a lot, I just show you, like, a 7 minute clip that is really indicative of the whole show. It's great.

Kenna Millea [00:07:48]:

No. And I will say what you have shown me has been pretty awesome.

Pat Millea [00:07:51]:

Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:07:51]:

So

Pat Millea [00:07:51]:

yeah. That's amazing. And you, my love?

Kenna Millea [00:07:55]:

Yeah. So in in thinking about life lately, I would say, my I has been and and this really was only in reflection. And, Pat, you and I haven't actually, like, really digested this, since my conversation with Father Nathan about it. But, just realizing how many dreams of mine have been realized. And it started this this yeah. Kind of introspective meandering path that I've been on started with coming back from Greece, And actually feeling a lot of sadness and realizing that it was because Greece was Just this, like I don't know. Just this ideal trip vacation place In my mind for most of my life.

Pat Millea [00:08:50]:

Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:08:51]:

And then to have that now, not that I can't ever go again, but to have it in my rearview mirror was this odd feeling of, like, melancholy for me. And then to realize that there are a lot of things like that right now in life, like moving into this house, You know that really as best as I can tell, like, it satisfies so so many of our family's needs, and

Pat Millea [00:09:20]:

Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:09:20]:

I don't I don't foresee a need. There may be a desire eventually, but I don't foresee a need to move. Thinking about, you know, where the Martin Center is at in terms of its clinical ministry, in terms of the podcast and the ways we get to speak and train, like, that's a dream realized that I've had for a long time and certainly, our family, you know, is this dream realized I didn't know exactly what I was dreaming about back in the day. Didn't know exactly 7 children and, you know, living in

Pat Millea [00:09:49]:

Right.

Kenna Millea [00:09:49]:

In the Twin Cities. But but yeah. So just that high of, like, oh my gosh. Like, Lord, you heard me. You've heard me over all these years. You know me, And and you are so so generous. Right? This isn't about my merit. It's about God's goodness.

Kenna Millea [00:10:05]:

And in some way, He wants to use these realize dreams to to call me to something in

Pat Millea [00:10:10]:

in

Kenna Millea [00:10:10]:

His kingdom. So that's a high. And then quite quickly, the hard has been and and what I'm wrestling with right now is how do I cel- Father used the word celebrate with me, and I think of it also as, like, rest. Like, how do I relish in and enjoy? Like, these dreams that have been realized, how do I How do I continue to savor and and, like, reflect on and reminisce about Greece? How do I enjoy our family life? You know, so many years of having babies and being pregnant or postpartum or, you know, what have you. And and and now it's like, oh, here we are. So I just I'm I'm seeing how that's difficult, like, that restlessness in me, and and trying to, yeah, sit with the discomfort, lean into the discomfort that comes from not trying to produce, Not trying to change anything, not trying to grow anything, improve myself, but to really, like, hear God's call to enjoy and sit back and take a deep breath. I will also say in regard to this episode and, parents, this is where the warning bells are going again. Like, I'm about to turn to content.

Kenna Millea [00:11:28]:

So, We're gonna get into this, but and in talking to Father, I said, and even the healing of our marriage, and you being so intentional about your recovery, like, that is a dream. Like, I mean, that's a prayer. That's a dream that I've had Yeah. For our whole relationship. And so, yeah, just Just realizing how how much has been actualized in my life. So yeah. So that brings us into our topic for today, which is continuing this conversation about pornography, about our perspective, right, a very unique story. I I trust that every story out there is different, and in some way there's nuance.

Kenna Millea [00:12:10]:

And so we don't offer our story as prescriptive, but really just, a desire to glorify god through what he's done with us and in us. And, so Our last episode was on our perspectives as husband, as wife, as one who felt betrayed as one who was addicted, like, just all that we went through. And now tonight, kind of bringing those together and talking about really focusing on the marriage and our story together.

Pat Millea [00:12:43]:

Right.

Kenna Millea [00:12:43]:

Yeah. Can you maybe for those who haven't Heard the previous episode. Pat, would you mind kinda giving what you think the highlights are? I'm curious what you actually think the highlights are Yeah. As well, by the way.

Pat Millea [00:12:54]:

Right. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:12:55]:

But, yeah, can you just give us a 30 second recap?

Pat Millea [00:12:59]:

Well, first of all, go back and listen to the 65 minutes or whatever. It's totally worth it.

Kenna Millea [00:13:03]:

But if you're here right now.

Pat Millea [00:13:05]:

But if you're here right now and you don't wanna go to the other episode 3 centimeters down on your phone, then, I think the highlight that I came away with was the, how different our experience was with pornography, even though we were going through it for not the entire time frame, but for a lot of it the past whatever it's been now 17, 18 years. We were going through it together, but our experience was so different. And we'll talk about this tonight. There were times that while we were going through it together, we did not feel like we were going through it together at all. We felt totally separate, totally isolated from each other, and, really struggled to be united in the midst of it. So That's what really struck me is how how much you know, we've talked about boundaries many times in the past, how much your side of the fence looked different from my side of the fence, and how tempted we were to imagine that there was no fence, that we had to feel the same about the the struggles with pornography and if we weren't we were doing something wrong so so I think that kind of different experience is really striking and I I knew that already, obviously. We've talked about this for years. I knew that.

Pat Millea [00:14:17]:

But it it came up or it showed up kind of in a new way that was even surprising to me, I think.

Kenna Millea [00:14:23]:

Yeah. No. No. I think that's a good summary and a good way to kick us off into into this episode. And I know, Pat, that you manage our social media and our communication, so I'm wondering if there have been questions or things that we wanna address before we get back into our story.

Pat Millea [00:14:40]:

Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So it's been great to get some of the questions that you listeners have thrown to us on Instagram and via email about this topic, about pornography, and a lot of different facets. So we wanted to address some of the questions that came up most frequently from you good folks out there. One of the first questions that we got that we got was, how did pornography affect your sexual relationship in your marriage? Which is a great question. It was the 1st question we got, and I was, like, woah. Out of the gates.

Pat Millea [00:15:10]:

Here here we go.

Kenna Millea [00:15:12]:

We offered vulnerability and they ran with it, babe.

Pat Millea [00:15:15]:

But it's a totally fair question and it's a very reasonable question to ask. Yeah. So what about you? I mean, I've got thoughts about it for myself too, but how would you answer that question?

Kenna Millea [00:15:27]:

Right. Well, I think when I first heard it, I I did wonder if they meant, like, frequency. I mean, to be honest.

Pat Millea [00:15:26]:

And Frequency, quality, like, some of the more, like, tangible things, you know.

Kenna Millea [00:15:39]:

Right. And, and so I think what what I'm realizing looking back is it I didn't feel free to say no when when you initiated sex, I again, because I was stuck in this story that it was somehow my fault. Right? I'm not enough. That was the lie. That I was falling for. And so in that codependence, I was, like, I have to do everything I can To, like, help Pat not turn to pornography. And so being available to you in sex was one way that I felt like I could do something.

Pat Millea [00:16:22]:

Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:16:21]:

And so, it I can see now how much more free, I feel, in, in intimacy, particularly in sex with you. And it it actually is I thought more about it, like, it means that I probably say no more often now. You know, like, I'm more honest with you now If I'm, like, not feeling well or if I don't feel emotionally connected to you, I did not feel like I could say that to you before of, like, hey, man. Like, sex is a is an outward sign. It's a it's a physical manifestation of how connected I feel to you and how emotionally intimate we are. Mhmm. And if I don't feel like I'm Connected to you. I don't wanna do this.

Kenna Millea [00:17:03]:

It doesn't feel true to me. And so now I'm, like, totally totally feel free to say that to you.

Pat Millea [00:17:09]:

Unfortunately. And it's Just kidding. It's better off this way.

Kenna Millea [00:17:12]:

But I I didn't back then. So Yeah. Yeah. I that's my perspective. What about you?

Pat Millea [00:17:02]:

Yeah. Yeah. No. I I had the same initial thought of, like my first thought honestly was, like, 7 kids in 10 years, man. I like, I clearly, We weren't hurting for frequency that much. Right? And and again, in part 1, I referenced this. But, I I my 2nd thought as well was, like, I at no point genuinely do I remember having, like, diminished desire for you as my bride. Like, for all the different problems and and very obvious consequences that pornography had in my life,

Pat Millea [00:17:50]:

That was not one of them. So it was never this physical thing of, like, well, I'm getting my needs met elsewhere so I don't need to turn to my bride for sex. Like, that was never an issue. For me, it was more of, like you said, like, A sexual relationship is the physical manifestation of this emotional spiritual reality between spouses, which is, First of all, one of the important reasons that sex is for marriage and not for anything else, but it's for marriage because it's within a sacrament, within the emotional connection that spouses share. And second of all, it means that, I bring all of myself to sex, and so do you, and so does anyone. Whether they intend to or not, we bring all of our self, our our body, mind, Soul, emotions, all of it comes with us, you know. So I I know that there were ways that I didn't Feel, connected to you as much as I should have because I felt Your story that you told yourself, like you just mentioned was, I'm not good enough. I'm not enough.

Pat Millea [00:18:58]:

My story that I told myself was I am bad. I was in that kind of shame place for a long time, you know. So I was really hesitant to get into a really beautiful intimate sexual relationship because the story I was telling myself is, I am bad. Kenna doesn't I don't deserve Kenna. Kenna deserves better than me. So I feel gross and wrong, like, being united to her in this really beautiful important way. So I think it's maybe the flip side of it, what you were talking about, that it didn't feel authentic to me, but it was because I was still seeing authentic to me. But it was because I was still seeing myself as the problem, capital T, capital P, you know.

Pat Millea [00:19:35]:

Mhmm. So, again, it didn't factor into, you know, frequency or pleasure or anything like that. But it definitely factored into, like, my interior sense of self. And I think it really was a block in our emotional connection for sure over the years

Kenna Millea [00:19:49]:

yeah

Pat Millea [00:19:50]:

yeah yeah another question that we got a couple different times actually was how parents can talk and work with their children about pornography we got questions from a few parents of mostly who have smaller kids you know kind of toddlers younger maybe a little bit older than toddlers who were just starting to have the conversations about, like, alright, what's appropriate, when is it appropriate, how do we have these conversations, which, by the way, first of all, if you have, like, a 1 year old or a 5 year old or or little kids like that and you're already thinking about this, you are 10 steps ahead of the game already. Yeah. And maybe not ahead of the game, but, like, you're on the right track. That's that's the first step. Because, unfortunately, I've come across so many parents who are looking in retrospect when they're having conversations with their kids in high school and college when their kids have been using pornography for 5, 8 years already because they didn't get ahead of it in time. So Mhmm. It's great to have proactive discussions. So Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:20:53]:

What what what suggestions would you have, babe, for parents with kids?

Kenna Millea [00:20:57]:

Yeah. Well, something that we looked into, a a bit ago, was this book series. I don't even remember we got introduced to it, but it's called Good Pictures, Bad Pictures. And, it might be a publication of the organization Defend Young Minds, and we'll link all of this up. You can buy these books on Amazon. Honestly don't remember where I got mine. But they have 2, books that are meant to be shared with read, you know, parents read these along with their children. There's a picture book for children ages 3 to 6, which I know sounds just bananas.

Kenna Millea [00:21:37]:

I it Even as I say that, I'm like, really? But ages 3 to 6, and then a more in-depth book for parents to read with their children ages 7 to 12. And, you know, I will say we haven't used the books per se with our kids. I haven't sat down and, like, read this, like a story book with the children. And and not because I think it's bad, but because I have preferred to speak about it in a more organic way as As situations have come up and and, man, it's not an if, but a when the situation comes up. Mhmm. The world just offers us lots of opportunities to talk about this. I mean, even just like even a homily that a priest gives or An intention that said sometimes at Mass will mention pornography. And and even in passing, and And our kids, you know, swivel, like, look at us, like, what is that? And so those are opportunities.

Kenna Millea [00:22:34]:

And so just really encouraging us as parents to, like, be proactive. Again, the world is going to take its shots at at beginning to plant these seeds, around sexuality and around these, You know, beliefs around objectification and Yeah. Anything you wanna add?

Pat Millea [00:22:51]:

I like what you're saying about that too, because I think 2 things that I think are helpful is number 1, clarifying what is the goal here with our kids. On one hand, the goal genuinely is to try to stop them from encountering pornography for as long as possible. The statistics are really sad, you know, that, the average American, child will interact with pornography for the 1st time by the time they're 13 years old. That's the average age of first exposure to pornography. So so a 7th grader is encountering pornography for the 1st time. And 73% of teenagers in the US have seen pornography. Three quarters of teenagers. Right? So on one hand, it's really valuable to try to hold off that encounter for as long as possible to give their brain time to develop the defenses that are really helpful against it.

Pat Millea [00:23:41]:

That's true. It is also unrealistic, unfortunately, to hope that our children will never in their life come across pornography. So the 2nd part of the goal is when they encounter it, not if, but when when they encounter it. What do I want them to be able to do with that? So you brought up a lot of the really good points of of getting away from shame, not just hiding it inside and not telling anyone, but giving them the freedom early on to have open conversations to bring it to mom and dad. You're not gonna get in trouble. We won't be angry with you. We just want you to safe things like that. I think the second thing that's really helpful is for parents to have some kind of, one liners ready to go for when conversations like this come up in age appropriate ways.

Pat Millea [00:24:26]:

I remember years ago hearing, I think, an interview or a conversation with somebody, a dad whose child asked them one time, about an adult bookstore or, like, an adult video store when they are on the highway or something. One of those, like, you know, XXX type stores or something like that. And he asked, like, You know, daddy, what store is that? And the dad had kinda a one liner ready, and his one liner for his kid was, buddy, that is a place where sad people go, and they think that it will make them feel happy, but it only makes them more sad. Right? And his his son was young enough. He was, like, a 4 year old or something like that, where that was a very appropriate answer. He wasn't evading reality. He wasn't avoiding telling him the truth. That was what was appropriate for a 4 year old.

Pat Millea [00:25:16]:

For an 11 year old, he might have given him a different story. You know? One of the lines that I really love, just drilling into our kids in little ways that have nothing to do with pornography necessarily is always clarifying the difference between Loving people but using things. And JPII talked about this all the time that the opposite of love isn't hate. The opposite of love is use. Because it's treating a person as something to be used for my well-being, my pleasure, instead instead of a person to be loved for their well-being, for their own good. And the moment that we do the opposite, that we love things and use people, we have now broken reality, basically.

Kenna Millea [00:25:56]:

Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:25:56]:

So that's a really great way to talk about pornography as a way that people use other people to get what they want. Mhmm. So just to to think ahead to have conversations with your spouse, what are one liners that are, again, age appropriate that will change as our kids grow up that we can give them to help them remember the truth about pornography and what they were made for instead.

Kenna Millea [00:26:17]:

Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:26:17]:

Yeah. And the other 2 questions that we got that were really great and really insightful are actually things that we are going to get into in this episode, part 2 of this, 2 part series on pornography. So the 2 questions are, How to start the conversation, which I assume is just with

Kenna Millea [00:26:33]:

your spouse.

Pat Millea [00:26:34]:

I I guess so. They left it kind of open ended. So I assume they mean, like, how to have the conversation with someone that you love, that you are maybe connected to consistently, you know, presumably a spouse, maybe, but you have best friend or something like that you know some of that you're connected to so that's question number 1 question number 2 is how much did you share with friends and other important people in your lives. And again, that that's gonna come into play heavily in what we have to talk about in this episode. So stay tuned, and we'll answer those questions with you as well. I think it it's helpful to to start down that road just to talk through a little bit more about the way that healing and hope has gone for us. You know, in part 1, we talked about how we experience this struggle separately. And now in part 2, we're gonna talk about the ways that you and I really work through this together.

Pat Millea [00:27:24]:

The way that we fought through it, Sometimes fought with each other, but stayed connected to each other and have really worked to come out on on the other side of it. You know? So just for a little bit of backstory, I think I talked about this a little bit in part one that, you know, for me healing and recovery has just been a really long arduous winding sometimes super frustrating road that it's not a straight shot. It is not this automatic one time fix where I have overcome, and I will never fail again, you know, that that addiction is not an easy immediate process, I would say, for most folks. And there were many things along the way that I thought didn't work. So things that I Tried quote unquote that I thought didn't work because I still fell after that thing. I think the truth, the more that I have perspective looking at the past, is that those things didn't fail. It's not that they didn't work. It's that they built on each other until the one kind of, like, capstone thing that really made all the different pieces fall into place and become like a a wall against the threat of pornography in my life you know so for example confession was a very consistent in my life that was a no brainer that was an easy option for me that I had to go to confession it was a non negotiable So it was spiritually necessary.

Pat Millea [00:28:51]:

Confession always worked. I was forgiven, but it didn't automatically lead to the human version of healing like I hoped it would. I think early on, I had hoped that confession would just fix it and I would feel better, you know. Again, confession always worked. It wasn't a problem with God or the Church, but confession just isn't that's not what it's for. It's not for

Kenna Millea [00:29:12]:

magic trick.

Pat Millea [00:29:13]:

Correct. It's not magic. It's not the immediate flipping of all of my desires just because I prayed in active contrition and I was absolved. That's not necessarily the way it works. It's It's indispensable, but it's not a magic trick. Right? The 1st time that I talked to you about it, that like, we talked about in part 1 that I was open with you. It helped us both to live in the truth, to at least be honest with each other. But I don't know In retrospect that I was really serious about recovery yet.

Pat Millea [00:29:45]:

I was serious I was serious about being honest. I don't know that I was serious at that moment about, And so I want to be done with this for the rest of my life. You know? I don't know that I I had gotten to that point yet. I went to individual therapy years ago when we were in some of the more difficult moments in our relationship with each other, in our marriage with pornography. To be honest, there were times that I felt like my therapist was kind of downplaying the seriousness of my struggles. And On one hand, it felt great to me because it hit, like, it it supported the story that I was telling myself that it's not that bad. It's not that it's not a huge deal. So on one hand, it was it was great, and it served the addict in me very well, but it was not good for me.

Pat Millea [00:30:30]:

And, It didn't get down to the deeper level of, like, the deeper emotional human needs and desires that I wasn't facing. So it was just kind of limited in what it offered me. You know? I think, when we got married and when I had kids, I hope that that was an automatic fix. Like, I got a sacrament. We're married. I can have all the happy married sex I want. I don't need pornography anymore, and and I'm a father. Fathers don't do this stuff, and I just assumed that it would be its automatic thing.

Pat Millea [00:31:02]:

And, again, it wasn't. When you and I went to marriage therapy, couples therapy, short time ago, That was much more helpful to me and to us than individual therapy. And we didn't even actually go to marriage therapy to deal with pornography at all. It was just to help us be more connected to each other. So it kinda but it did both. I mean, it helped us be connect more connected to each other. And it helped me to get real about what I wanted out of our marriage and what I wanted to give to our marriage. So it started to really chip away at my desire for pornography, because I could see that that wasn't what I wanted, and I didn't want to look in that direction anymore, you know.

Pat Millea [00:31:44]:

But we mentioned this in the the first part as well. What really was that capstone that kind of, like, made all the pieces click into place for me was just total and blunt and humiliating disclosure to you and to my best friend, to these people that I love and respect, that this was still a problem in my life and that I needed prayer and accountability and help. And I think the reason I think that that was effective for me was that that move was a direct attack on my shame. Because for whatever it was, maybe 15 years at that point or longer, my my shame had been telling me No one can find out about this. If they do find out, they'll leave you, and you'll be alone forever. No one can ever love you. You are bad. So when I told the people that I love the most that this was a problem, and they didn't leave, they didn't run away, they didn't get furious with me and tell me that I was bad and unlovable, then it really destroyed that story that I had been clinging on to for so long.

Pat Millea [00:32:48]:

So, so it's a it's a long way of saying that, I didn't honestly share a lot with friends and important people in my life until really a lot later than I should have. I mean, there were legitimately years years years from the beginning of my pornography use where 0 people knew. 0. And maybe 0 is giving other people not enough credit. Because maybe they knew, and I didn't know they knew. But I hadn't I have told anyone, anyone, anyone for years years years years. So it's no surprise to me that that was one of the major, moves that started to really solidify some of the healing in in the process for me.

Kenna Millea [00:33:31]:

Yeah. Okay. So that's interesting. And I'm thinking thinking about I mean, for for a very long time, I also lived in silence on my end of not sharing with anyone, what was going on in our marriage, and and what we were facing. I think, you know, certainly, I shared with friends who confided in me that this was something that was going on in their own marriage or something that they were dealing with. And so Certainly felt very you know, that that felt like an invitation to

Kenna Millea [00:34:04]:

share in that and to encourage each other or to better understand. So yeah. I, I think it it's this odd thing when when You are in the shoes that I have been in of, like, this is my story, but it's not entirely just my story. And so there there was this desire for support for me, but it also I there were times when I felt like I was betraying you By sharing this with others. And so, again, you know, we know that god doesn't want us in a place of isolation and shame and Silence. And while I can know that, it felt very confusing, and I felt scared. I didn't wanna do anything to make any of this any worse. So that was a tricky spot for me.

Kenna Millea [00:34:24]:

But yeah. Absolutely. There were some key people that I shared it with, And and each time, I can I can truly say it felt relieving, And those friends were so good to me, and, so good in not judging you, and not judging our marriage, not judging me, and just wanting to be supportive of us and believing, you know, in in our commitment to our marriage? So maybe my parallel to, yeah, that capstone that you described in your own process, mine was looking In the eyes of my greatest fear, which was being abandoned by you. And and and they and they honestly, I didn't really Ever worry for whatever reason in our marriage, I didn't really worry about you physically leaving me. I worried about you emotionally leaving me. Right? Like, psychologically, spiritually, emotionally not being present, not being available to me, not being transparent with me, And and being able to live in freedom and in honesty. Like, that's more what I worried about. And and that felt so scary because I was like, well, how will I know when that happens? Because he'll still be coming home from work.

Kenna Millea [00:36:13]:

He'll still be here with me at the end of a day. But how will I like, the quality will feel different. And and so it was just this kind of, yeah. It it was a difficult thing to wrap my my mind around, but I knew it, like, in my body, there was this fear that that could happen. And so when I, like, stared that down and and maybe this sounds odd, and and it's okay if it doesn't sound like something that applies to your Or that you can relate to, but I needed to look at that and and acknowledge, like, I would be okay. Like that that I had to get comfortable with a marriage like that. I mean, that is how committed I was and am to our marriage, into our family, I knew I was going to stay.

Kenna Millea [00:37:02]:

And so I had to look at, like, what an empty a life of an empty marriage Would be like and when I could see that and I realized that I still had hope, you know, it wasn't It wasn't the bright, full, vibrant life that I'd hoped for.

Pat Millea [00:37:18]:

Right.

Kenna Millea [00:37:01]:

But I could still have hope that, like, the Lord would be with me, And that I would be okay that, like, I could still pursue heaven in those circumstances. Like, if this is what is being asked of me, then I had Looked, you know, looked the devil square in the eyes and be like, you got nothing on me. Like, there is nothing left that you can scare me with, and that Changed everything. Like, from there, I I had been living in silence. Right? Silence with others, but silence with you. And I had kept all of my fears, all of my worries, all of my insecurities silent. And from then on, I was like, I'm gonna say something. When I feel uncomfortable, when I feel like Pat's doing something inappropriate, when I'm worried that he has been using again, I'm gonna say it because I have nothing left to lose anymore.

Kenna Millea [00:38:10]:

Mhmm. And I felt so empowered by truth, right, which, again, is, like, isn't that Jesus? Like, but I felt so empowered by that that that there was nothing you could say. Certainly okay. It could hurt me. Like, let's be real. I'm not, like, bulletproof. I'm still human.

Pat Millea [00:38:28]:

Right.

Kenna Millea [00:38:29]:

But but I had gone to the point of, like, devastation. Right? In my imagination, I'd let myself go there And and realize that I was already living as if I was in that place by being silent. And I was, like, So it could only be better. Like, it could only be better to say this, to call him out, to tell him that I notice, To tell him how it affects me. And so, you know, to that question of how do you start the conversation, A business consultant once said to us, just we were trying to come up with something for marketing, and she was like, just say it ugly. Just just say it ugly. Say what you mean, and we'll figure out how to make it pretty later.

Pat Millea [00:39:10]:

It doesn't matter how you say it. Just say it ugly.

Kenna Millea [00:39:12]:

Just get it out.

Pat Millea [00:39:12]:

Out there. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:39:13]:

And and that I will say has become my rule with you. And, again, not applicable to every marriage because some marriages, there's a lot of ugliness being said. And that is maybe part of the problem. But but for me, I needed to just bring stuff into the light, to throw it on the coffee table between us, and to go, here's what I'm seeing. Here's what I'm feeling. Here's what I'm wondering. Here's what I'm worried about. And that the the power of my voice in our marriage, which is so funny because I I have such a strong voice in so many other places.

Kenna Millea [00:38:10]:

Like, one wouldn't think that would struggle with using your voice, but I really did. But but I have come to learn that that is, that is a strength, and that is what something that our marriage needs

Pat Millea [00:39:56]:

Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:39:56]:

Is for me to to say that. And so kind of from there, we've had, I don't know. A couple a couple different, like, rules of thumb or or ways of communicating that have been helpful. I I don't know if these are, best in all marriages, probably not, but they've worked for us. So the couple things that come to mind, number 1, It's just like full transparency on my part and and yours around upcoming situations. So being proactive about about things that are problematic. So for example, if you're traveling, if you're going to an event without me, Then I'll just be honest with you. If I'm if I'm feeling nervous, if I'm feeling anxious, we have gotten in a better rhythm of, like, recognizing that You being proactive with me and not waiting for me to ask, like, hey, what's your plan to keep yourself safe, to keep yourself sober? But that you come to me and say, hey.

Kenna Millea [00:40:56]:

I've been thinking, and I know I'm gonna have these, you know, couple nights alone in a hotel. And Right. And here's Here are my thoughts. Here are my ideas. I'm gonna check-in with you, you know, by 10 when I get to my hotel room, and then I'm gonna be done with electronics for the night. I've got a book. I'm gonna have some journaling time. Like, I'm gonna be done with electronics.

Pat Millea [00:41:14]:

Right.

Kenna Millea [00:41:14]:

And just you knowing what has been problematic In your own cycle in the past, and coming to me and saying, here's how I'm thinking

Pat Millea [00:41:23]:

Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:41:23]:

About taking care of you and our family and our marriage while I'm gone. So that transparency on both sides has been really, really helpful. Something that that we said and again, I don't know if this is Right or wrong or healthy or whatever, but it it is true that I he would leave and I would say every moment Is either trust breaking or trust building. Like, there were nothing felt neutral to me. And so it was either you are going to be a man of integrity, And you are going to be my husband even when I'm not in your presence.

Pat Millea [00:41:55]:

Right.

Kenna Millea [00:41:55]:

Or you are going to do things that, really fly in the face of our commitment And and of the goodness of what this is what we are called to be.

Pat Millea [00:42:04]:

Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:42:06]:

And so, yeah, that was Really, really difficult, I think, for us to to come to and to speak so regularly and so openly, but Especially in the beginning of of you really working your recovery and and seeking health, like, we just had to talk about it all the time.

Pat Millea [00:42:23]:

Right.

Kenna Millea [00:42:24]:

Because again, you're out in the world. Right? There are other women. And so for you to get out of those habits, we had to be very frontal, to some of those behaviors and to recognize that, like, trust is earned. And what's the quote you give me?

Pat Millea [00:42:41]:

Still think all the time of. So here's the thing. There's, like, a list in my brain of, like, a dozen Christmas movies that I have to watch every year between Thanksgiving and Christmas. Okay? And one of them

Kenna Millea [00:42:54]:

This is a timely moment to share these with with listeners, actually, I'm realizing.

Pat Millea [00:39:55]:

And one of them is a movie that maybe not many people love, but I love, and so do you. It's a movie called The Family Man with Nicolas Cage. And there's a so it's a hilarious story where he's shown this glimpse. He's a successful businessman. He's on top of the world in Manhattan. He's shown this glimpse of what his life would be like if he married his college sweetheart and just lived Kind of a typical life in New Jersey with 2 kids married instead. You know? And because it's a glimpse, he decides, forget this. I'm gonna go have an affair, quote unquote, with this, like, woman from the neighborhood who's hitting on me all of a sudden.

Pat Millea [00:43:34]:

And since it's just a glimpse into married life, I'm not actually married to this woman. It's not really cheating. It's gonna be fine. And his best friend sits down with him when he hears that he's thinking of cheating on his wife. And the line then he tells him is, buddy, the Fidelity Bank and Trust is a tough creditor. You make one withdrawal, and they close your account forever, which is it's like it rings in my ears. But it's it's it's this beautiful, hilarious, goofy example of, like, trust can be earned over the course of a decade and destroyed in the course of a night. You know

Pat Millea [00:44:09]:

It it takes so much longer to build up trust and a healthy relationship than it does to destroy it so it we had to work really hard to build up trust both of us we had to work like tirelessly day after day after day making Plans being proactive, communicating clearly to keep building up trust over years years years to get to the point we are now and and God willing for decades to come.

Kenna Millea [00:44:36]:

No. Absolutely. And, yeah, I can stand behind that recommendation of The Family Man with Nicholas Cage and Tea Leoni. Yeah. So, put it on your Christmas watch list.

Pat Millea [00:44:45]:

Classic nineties Christmas. Yeah. The best.

Kenna Millea [00:44:45]:

But no. Absolutely, that that trust. And I think, you know, when you say, Pat, like, trust in both directions, I think too, I as we were moving toward true intimacy, I had to resist the temptation To hold all of this over your head. Right? Every time something came up, I felt like I had this trump card in my hand of, like, well, you haven't known what it's like to be on the side this end of You know? And so to to put that away

Pat Millea [00:45:24]:

Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:45:24]:

And to go, that is not going to get me where I actually want to be. Because where I want to be is communion with my husband. Where I want to be is is a life of of trust, of love and of mutual respect, and of building each other up, and and reflecting to each other, showing Pat who I believe God sees him to be, And to harbor that resentment and to, just beat you with the guilt and the shame that you are already feeling was not going to move me In in the direction that I wanted to be.

Pat Millea [00:46:00]:

Which that that emotional response makes perfect sense, by the way. And I think it's easy to empathize with that emotional feeling of

Kenna Millea [00:46:07]:

Sure.

Pat Millea [00:46:07]:

A little bit of self righteousness, but really coming out of hurt in pain, you know, that if someone hurts me, it's an easy emotional place to go to of, like, ouch. How dare you? That hurts. Don't do that again. And, like, recoiling, pulling back. Right?

Kenna Millea [00:46:23]:

Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:46:23]:

But the the trouble comes into play when that emotional reaction becomes a willful choice of bitterness and resentment and distance and, you know, you hear about it all the time in marriages, in relationships, even in friendships and family relationships, like, I will never let them hurt me again. I'm gonna distance myself. I'm gonna build a wall. Screw that. Screw you. It's you can't touch me ever again, you know. That it's an understandable feeling, But there's a lot of harm that comes from that place when it's a willful choice over the course of years.

Kenna Millea [00:46:58]:

Well, there's harm and there's and there's also just not relationship.

Pat Millea [00:47:01]:

Like Right.

Kenna Millea [00:45:59]:

Like That that holding on to that was mutually exclusive to being married to you, truly married to you, because that resentment, that bitterness, that anger was an obstacle to true intimacy. And I mean, if you if you even just think about If you asked me to physically embody the emotion of resentment or the emotion of fear, right, being afraid of being hurt by you, It's closed off. Like, it it's not open. It's not one of vulnerability. And again, to go back to my, kind of, my turning point Of staring my greatest fear in the face of being abandoned by you, being hurt by you, being rejected by you. And and yeah. Absolutely.

Kenna Millea [00:47:46]:

Because, honestly, to stay in that place of resentment and and anger and fear would have been divorce to me. I mean, I don't even know if I mean that legally, but, I mean, I would have chosen to separate myself from you, which is which is what divorce is. And and, you know, to be totally transparent, like, similar to that trump card of, like, throwing it on you of, like, well, you've done x y z things to me. Absolutely. Divorce was something that was so tempting for me to grab as something to lord over you, something to try to control you with. And You've told me on that night that I don't remember as well as you do that, like, that horrible argument in our living room that that that is something that I said to you, that there was a threat that I made and Thanks be to God. Haven't ever made since, but, but it can be easy to reach for.

Kenna Millea [00:48:38]:

And so I've had to, like, intentionally not do that in order to build up trust in our marriage.

Pat Millea [00:48:44]:

Which what I love about when you talked about, making the willful choice to be transparent and to tell me what you're thinking and feeling and just putting it on the table. What you're not saying is that you're doing that in a vindictive, I don't care about you. I don't care about your feelings anymore. I'm just gonna speak my truth. You know?

Kenna Millea [00:49:04]:

Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:48:44]:

You you weren't doing it in bitter spiteful, screw you. I'm gonna tell you what I really think now. You weren't doing it in that way.

Kenna Millea [00:49:12]:

Not all the time. I mean, let's be real.

Pat Millea [00:49:14]:

most of the time.

Kenna Millea [00:49:16]:

Tell me how I did it when I did it well.

Pat Millea [00:49:19]:

Most of the time, it was in this free, I'm not trying to punish you. I'm not trying to lord this over you. I'm not even trying to motivate you. I'm just trying to be open with you. And it's better for me to be open and to have you not respond and to keep that distance between us than it would be for me to keep all this inside and still not be connected.

Kenna Millea [00:49:14]:

Because it really was a self disclosure. Right? Like, it was a, hey, I'm telling you that I have this worry because I love you And because I trust that you want to know me. It wasn't yeah, like you said, in a motivating threatening kind of a way on our best days. Right? Like, guys, we're giving you Our our best efforts here I mean, we got it wrong for a really long time.

Pat Millea [00:50:03]:

Lots of bad days

Kenna Millea [00:50:04]:

too. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:50:03]:

Right. Lovely. And it really was. I I I think we've talked a lot about kind of all this comes down to, I think, the idea of being on the same team, of of you making a choice to not see me as as the bad guy or the enemy or the cause of all your pain and suffering, But also being realistic and saying, I don't feel connected to him very much right now. So how can I at least be truthful? How can I love him in the circumstances that we have in this moment and how can I be hopeful that things are gonna improve you know and it was easy for me to villainize myself and to blame myself for all the problems, all the struggles in our marriage? And some of that was certainly objectively true. But there's this metaphor that I've kept coming back to that I think is really helpful for the process that you and I went through together in our marriage. I remember years ago, we had been married probably 2 years, not even 2 years, in our very first home in Minneapolis. And we came home from a date night, and you were pregnant with our first child.

Pat Millea [00:51:08]:

And as we opened the front door to our house, I looked through the house to the back door, and the back door was closing because some, Probably teenage kid had broken into our house through a window, taken hilariously a cup of change off my dresser and your crappy early 2000 cell phone.

Kenna Millea [00:51:27]:

I love that flip phone, man. Don't you be kidding me.

Pat Millea [00:51:31]:

Inside, we found the flip phone a couple days later thrown on the curb 2 blocks down because

Kenna Millea [00:51:37]:

neighbor found it.

Pat Millea [00:51:37]:

Even the thief was like, this is garbage. I don't want this thing.

Kenna Millea [00:51:41]:

Can't get anything for this on the black market.

Pat Millea [00:51:43]:

Remember, like, both of us remember the feeling of being violated, having our space broken into like that. And no one was hurt. We weren't home. Nothing valuable was stolen. At the end of the day, it wasn't really a a a physical problem at all, not a tangible issue. But, man, it was, like, this really gross in in evasive feeling, you know. So I I've thought about that night, and I've thought about this metaphor that, like, Imagine that, there was some kind of a a thief or a robber in our neighborhood.

Pat Millea [00:52:15]:

You know? And I I knew that this guy was a robber. Maybe he was on the news for for being, like, on the loose. He's at large. Call the cops. If you see this person wandering around your neighborhood, he's stolen a bunch of cars and he's taken people's jewelry and whatever. You know? And imagine that I walked in saw him walking down the street, and for for reasons that I don't even know, I opened the front door to our house, and I let him into our house. Right? So there is now an immediate threat in our family's home. And objectively, truthfully, I am the one that allowed the threat into our home.

Pat Millea [00:52:52]:

I allowed this robber, this thief, this dangerous person access to the people and the home that is dear to us. You know? It would be easy and understandable for you, instead of fighting against this robber, the threat in our home, to just turn toward me instead and start yelling and screaming and blaming what's wrong with you. You always do this. This is your fault. You got us into this mess. You get us out of it. You're the problem. You know? It it would be easy and understandable because, again, objectively, I'm the one that opened the door.

Pat Millea [00:53:28]:

Right? But that doesn't deal with the problem standing in front of us right now. Yeah. That doesn't do anything to make our home safe. It doesn't do anything to secure our our house, to protect our family, and to protect our stuff. It It doesn't do anything to address the problem that's standing right in front of us. What what is way more effective and actually the only way to address a problem like that is for both of us to turn toward the problem shoulder to shoulder and to fight against the threat together to, like, shove the thief out of our house and lock the door and never let that person back in again, you know. That is the kind of image that I think was a really big shift for us in our marriage that, when when you started making conscious decisions to to free me from this cage of being the villain or the problem when I was willing to start looking at myself not merely as the problem, but also as one of the greatest agents of healing in this situation. And when you and I started to really be in it together, that it wasn't my battle to fight, and I'll tell you when it's done.

Pat Millea [00:54:43]:

It wasn't your problem to solve, and you have to fix me. It was both of us hand in hand dealing with this problem that, Again, objectively, I'm the one that brought this problem into our marriage. Right? But now we're married, and it's our problem to faced together.

Kenna Millea [00:55:02]:

Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:55:02]:

And I think that's been a really valuable shift for both of us that that's when the sacrament again, not a magic trick, that's when the sacrament really started to take hold and to work with us and when we started to really make progress in our not just my recovery, but in our marriage and our love with each other as well was really standing side by side against it.

Kenna Millea [00:55:23]:

So I think that this is a really great Intro into our challenge by choice. So can I give can I give that

Pat Millea [00:55:29]:

Fire away, baby.

Kenna Millea [00:55:30]:

Alright. So, challenge by choice, and and I actually think that For me personally, I'll say, I'm gonna take this challenge not so much in our marriage, but actually in another relationship that really matters a lot to me. So I don't I don't think it has to be in a if this doesn't fit for you. But to consider an an interpersonal conflict tension Difficulty that you're experiencing right now. And to be honest about the ways in which you might be thinking that this issue exists because Of that other person. Like, something that they're doing, something that they are or that they don't possess or that they aren't, you know, the way they're they're not treating me, whatever that is. But to be honest about how they you might be painting them as the villain, and Is it possible that you could take a couple steps back from the situation and consider that you and that person actually Share this goal of being connected, of this desire of of having a relationship, and that the issue Is actually outside of the 2 of you. That the issue is actually, something that you could face together And consider together.

Pat Millea [00:56:50]:

I love that. That's a great challenge by choice that obviously connects to what we were talking about about being united with each other in the battle against pornography and that you know you and I are not the villain but this enemy out there, outside of us, we're united against that. But here's my okay. Here's my devil's advocate question. Okay?

Kenna Millea [00:57:09]:

I love this.

Pat Millea [00:57:10]:

Get ready.

Kenna Millea [00:57:10]:

Are you bringing In confrontation into my life, Pat? Let's go.

Pat Millea [00:57:14]:

Because I'm imagining folks out in the world who are maybe in a situation and, you know, People from all over the world listen to this podcast in lots of different situations, lots of circumstances in their lives. Maybe there are folks hearing this who are saying to themselves, okay, this this loved one maybe a spouse maybe a best friend maybe a family member they don't see this thing as a problem maybe they do have an addiction to to alcohol or gambling or or pornography maybe they have a really destructive relationship in their lives with somebody else and And maybe they can't see that it's a problem right now, so we're you we're not united in this. I I can identify the problem, but they are not, so we're not united. What how would this apply to somebody in a situation like that?

Kenna Millea [00:57:58]:

Yeah. No. I mean, that's good. And and, honestly, like, I feel like we were in that place For a while. That I I think you thought you were working your recovery, and you were making honest steps towards sobriety, and I did not feel the way. I did not see it that way. And so I would say, you know, maybe no surprise if you've listened to any of our episodes.

Kenna Millea [00:58:20]:

This is a place where boundaries are really helpful.

Pat Millea [00:58:23]:

Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:58:23]:

And, you know, for for the person who's listening to to really own what is yours to own in your garden to do your piece. Again, I I think we can still resist that temptation to villainize the other, and and to stop seeing that person as the problem, and to change our perspective, which I trust will give space for the other To own their part, and and maybe for them to feel less threatened by owning their part, to feel More free. And, yeah, just less threatened is, like, the phrase I can think of.

Pat Millea [00:59:05]:

That is that that's a great that makes a lot of sense. It's a great response. The devil has been satisfied or sorry. The the advocate for the devil has no further questions.

Kenna Millea [00:59:16]:

Good deal. Wiping sweat from her brow.

Pat Millea [00:59:19]:

Man, who's ready to move on to other topics in the next episode? You, me, everyone else. No. It's fine. This is so good. It's great to have just, like, open, genuine, faith filled conversations about pornography. Because, again, like, we've talked about in 2 episodes now, There's not a lot of folks having really fruitful, faithful, open conversations about this kind of stuff, so it's a really Great place to be able to have valuable conversations. So why don't we pray to invite the Holy Spirit to be with us as we try to live this out for the rest of our lives, and then we'll go and do it.

Pat Millea [00:59:52]:

Yes. Sound good?

Kenna Millea [00:59:53]:

Yes. Alright. Absolutely. In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen.

Pat Millea [01:00:02]:

Lord Jesus, we we praise you, and we thank you for all of your love and grace in our lives. Lord, we would have nothing good if it didn't come from you, and all that we know that is good and true and beautiful has poured out from your generous love. So we come to you in thanksgiving. We thank you as well for, the gifts of good desire, good sexuality, good relationships that you've blessed us with. And we ask for your forgiveness and for your protection over the ways that we are tempted and the ways that we have fallen and sinned in areas of our sexuality and in any form of addiction. Lord, we pray for all those who are struggling with the sin of pornography for those who are dealing with the fallout of that sin in their relationships especially in marriages Lord, we pray for marriages who are struggling the most, those that are suffering most deeply. We pray for hope and for your healing to be with them and to be with all of us as we look to walk with you and to walk hand in hand with those that you have called us to unite with. Lord, please bless us.

Pat Millea [01:01:25]:

Help us to live this out in our hearts, in our marriages, in our families, and in our world and we ask all this Lord in your name amen Father Son of the Holy Spirit Amen. That's a wrap, baby.

Kenna Millea [01:01:40]:

Yes. It is. Thank you again for, just showing up with such boldness and that superpower of yours, of vulnerability, it is just such a gift to be married to you and and to let our story hopefully yeah be be some source of hope for others

Pat Millea [01:01:59]:

You and me both thank you yeah it's been a really beautiful and sometimes difficult but maybe all the more beautiful because of the difficulty that we've been through together and, all the the hope and joy that's come from it. So Yeah. Thank you.

Kenna Millea [01:02:13]:

You just described marriage. So, and thank you listeners For being with us, for receiving us, for letting us share, yeah, share our story, and and what we are continuing to learn about God and his goodness. And so let us know how how is this impacting you, what is sticking with you. Connect with us on social media @thiswholelifepodcast, and, reach out to us on the website, thiswholelifepodcast.com. We'd love to know, what else what else should we dive into? Clearly, there's not a whole lot that's off the table for Pat and Kenna. So what would be helpful? And until next time, know that you are in our prayers truly, and we are so grateful for you. God bless you.

Pat Millea [01:02:57]:

God bless you, friends. This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Kenna Millea [01:03:24]:

So maybe for, Free you know, kind of my parallel moment, Pat, to your, you know, tearing open the shutters. The image of you, like, King Kong.

Pat Millea [01:03:40]:

No. I thought you're starting to quote, the the poem the the Christmas poem.

Kenna Millea [01:03:47]:

Yes. Twas the Night Before Christmas, I was.

Pat Millea [01:03:49]:

Threw up the shutters and tore up the sash.