Ep37 Forgiveness: Living In Freedom

"Bear with one another and, if anyone has a complaint against another, forgive each other; just as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive."
~ Colossians 3:13

In the prayer that Jesus gave us, we hear: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." We pray these words so often that we can overlook how challenging, and even unpopular, we find the reality of forgiveness. We have all been hurt by others, sometimes in profound and life-altering ways. Why would Jesus command us to do something as difficult - maybe even irrational - as forgiving?

In episode 37 of "This Whole Life", Kenna and Pat Millea delve into the complexities of forgiveness with Fr. Nathan LaLiberte. Together, they explore the spiritual, emotional, and psychological freedom that forgiveness brings, emphasizing its importance for personal wholeness and healthy relationships. The conversation touches on the challenges of seeking and offering forgiveness, the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation, and the significance of self-forgiveness. Drawing from Christian truths and psychological perspectives, the episode offers insights into the transformative power of forgiveness, emphasizing the ongoing process of releasing resentment and embracing personal freedom. Begin or continue your path toward freedom and healing with this impactful conversation!

Episode 37 Show Notes

Chapters:
0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
10:07: Forgiveness is essential
25:30: Practical approaches to forgiveness
37:15: HOW do I forgive?
47:09: How can I forgive myself?
51:53: Challenge By Choice

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

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Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 10:07 Forgiveness is essential
• 25:30 Practical approaches to forgiveness
• 37:15 HOW do I forgive?
• 47:09 How can I forgive myself?
• 51:53 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Pat Millea [00:00:02]:
That we were made to be free from the kind of resentment and bitterness and

Pat Millea [00:00:05]:
angst that comes from holding on to grudges like that. And

Pat Millea [00:00:09]:
we are given the gift then of wholeness as a response to

Pat Millea [00:00:13]:
living in a way that is whole and holy.

Pat Millea [00:00:23]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, A podcast for all of us seeking

Pat Millea [00:00:27]:
sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through

Pat Millea [00:00:30]:
the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Pat Millea, a

Pat Millea [00:00:34]:
Catholic speaker, musician, and leader, and I'm here with my bride,

Pat Millea [00:00:38]:
Kenna, a licensed marriage and family therapist. This is

Pat Millea [00:00:41]:
the stuff she and I talk about all the time, doing dishes, in the

Pat Millea [00:00:45]:
car, on a date. We're excited to bring you this podcast for

Pat Millea [00:00:49]:
educational purposes. It's not therapy or a substitute for mental

Pat Millea [00:00:52]:
health care. So come on in. Have a seat at our dining room table and

Pat Millea [00:00:56]:
join the conversation with us. We are so glad you're

Pat Millea [00:01:00]:
here.

Pat Millea [00:01:13]:
It is This Whole Life, and we are back live

Pat Millea [00:01:17]:
with you.

Kenna Millea [00:01:18]:
Never live, babe. Never live.

Pat Millea [00:01:19]:
Never live.

Kenna Millea [00:01:20]:
Never live. Edited, actually.

Pat Millea [00:01:21]:
I am live with you and with you. Alright?

Kenna Millea [00:01:24]:
We pride ourselves on our editing.

Pat Millea [00:01:28]:
Oh, but it is great to be with you even if you're listening to this

Pat Millea [00:01:31]:
3 years later, and it's the furthest thing from live. It's great to be with

Pat Millea [00:01:34]:
you. Great to be with both of you today. I'm here with my beautiful bride,

Pat Millea [00:01:37]:
Kenna Millea. Good to see you.

Kenna Millea [00:01:39]:
Good to see you.

Pat Millea [00:01:40]:
And our beautiful priest friend, Father Nathan. Why, thank you. I'm

Pat Millea [00:01:43]:
flattered. I don't recall that very often. Oh,

Pat Millea [00:01:48]:
Oh, man. Well, why don't we just get right down into it? We had a

Pat Millea [00:01:51]:
great conversation today. Ladies first.

Kenna Millea [00:01:53]:
Has it not?

Pat Millea [00:01:54]:
With highs and hards. Yes, please.

Kenna Millea [00:01:57]:
Yeah. So, this is, in actual

Kenna Millea [00:02:01]:
time, it is Advent. And, I would say

Kenna Millea [00:02:05]:
the hard is maybe an an occupational hazard

Kenna Millea [00:02:09]:
is that I get to be in the the

Kenna Millea [00:02:13]:
real Mess and the muck of people's lives. And

Kenna Millea [00:02:16]:
so I think when the world is sending these cues of, like,

Kenna Millea [00:02:20]:
it's the most wonderful time of the year and, like, Be holly jolly. And, you

Kenna Millea [00:02:24]:
know, there's always, like and I am so aware of of my

Kenna Millea [00:02:27]:
own, but but of others suffering and grief

Kenna Millea [00:02:31]:
and Financial distress. I mean, that's

Kenna Millea [00:02:34]:
real in 2023. Mhmm. And

Kenna Millea [00:02:38]:
just, yeah, Strain relationships and just all of

Kenna Millea [00:02:42]:
it. Like, that is hard, to be

Kenna Millea [00:02:46]:
it's also so so much the season of Advent To just hold

Kenna Millea [00:02:49]:
this dialectic of the both/and, but

Kenna Millea [00:02:53]:
acutely aware of that. And and as you, Pat, often

Kenna Millea [00:02:57]:
will say to me, like, and there is Joy. So so that that

Kenna Millea [00:03:01]:
hard, that navigating it and negotiating it and, like, being

Kenna Millea [00:03:04]:
here on Earth, this side of heaven, with

Kenna Millea [00:03:08]:
people who are hurting and and my own hurt, for

Kenna Millea [00:03:11]:
sure, my own grief. So that has

Kenna Millea [00:03:15]:
been The hard, like, how do I show up authentically

Kenna Millea [00:03:19]:
and carry this? I would say

Kenna Millea [00:03:23]:
highs Lately, include, we

Kenna Millea [00:03:26]:
just had a we've talked a bit about our oldest who just

Kenna Millea [00:03:30]:
Turned 13, and we've had some

Kenna Millea [00:03:34]:
challenging topics. She calls them modern ideas,

Kenna Millea [00:03:38]:
I feel like, I just, like, love that. Like, I don't know.

Pat Millea [00:03:41]:
Yeah. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:03:42]:
Modern ideas.

Pat Millea [00:03:44]:
Says the woman from 1850. You know?

Kenna Millea [00:03:49]:
And just the grace of the Holy Spirit and a lot

Kenna Millea [00:03:53]:
of therapy years behind me, I've given her space to

Kenna Millea [00:03:57]:
just talk about what she thinks of these, quote, modern

Kenna Millea [00:04:00]:
ideas and and what does or doesn't make sense to her, what

Kenna Millea [00:04:04]:
questions she has. And It's, honestly not a place

Kenna Millea [00:04:08]:
I saw myself ever in parenting. Like, I just I don't know that I ever

Kenna Millea [00:04:11]:
envisioned I'd have this approach or response to her,

Kenna Millea [00:04:15]:
but it it just feels so good, and I just am so

Kenna Millea [00:04:19]:
thankful to the Lord. I can see how He has grown

Kenna Millea [00:04:22]:
me to tolerate the distress and the discomfort.

Kenna Millea [00:04:26]:
And, like, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Right? Like, this is just

Kenna Millea [00:04:29]:
the beginning Of our kids asking big questions or making big

Kenna Millea [00:04:32]:
decisions that maybe I don't agree with or don't think are in their best interest

Pat Millea [00:04:36]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:04:36]:
And honoring their Free will and giving them guidance. Like,

Kenna Millea [00:04:40]:
just there's so many layers to it, but it's been so

Kenna Millea [00:04:43]:
so good, and I can see how God is in the

Kenna Millea [00:04:47]:
midst of those conversations. So, yeah, shout out to all

Kenna Millea [00:04:51]:
those who have gone before us, who our parents who have raised us to be

Kenna Millea [00:04:54]:
these grown ups. It is not for the faint of heart. So,

Kenna Millea [00:04:57]:
yeah, that's that's me in a nutshell. Father, what about

Kenna Millea [00:05:01]:
you?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:02]:
So my high and hard are one and the same. So

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:06]:
Couple weeks ago, my dear priest friend, my

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:09]:
mentor, my inspiration for the priesthood, father Jeff Huard,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:13]:
passed away unexpectedly. Expectedly. Mhmm. He had had some health stuff, but

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:17]:
he was only 68. And and I think this is why it's

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:21]:
it's both a high and a hard is I've been having a lot of conversations

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:24]:
with other priests and just seeing how big of an impact he has had on

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:28]:
so many good vocations. Mhmm. He's

Pat Millea [00:05:31]:
he's He's

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:31]:
a spiritual director in the seminary for years. I mean, almost his entire priesthood

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:35]:
was spent directing young men and women. And

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:39]:
I know at least for myself, like, I can I can honestly say without

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:43]:
any exaggeration, I would not be a priest without him? He was the

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:46]:
one that Saw me freaky and weird and

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:50]:
spiked hair and trench coat, and he still asked me if I thought about the

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:53]:
seminary. And I asked him what powers you get as a priest, and

Pat Millea [00:05:57]:
he was super confused. So amazing.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:00]:
So many powers.

Pat Millea [00:06:01]:
Like X-ray vision.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:04]:
And so I, yeah, and he was just so patient with me

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:09]:
through seminary. So, like, there there's a deep ache of loss, which is the

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:12]:
hard. But also to just, like, immense

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:16]:
gratitude to see how much 1 priest's life can affect,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:21]:
People, especially on this local level. So, you know, and especially, you

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:25]:
know, we're we're go moving towards Christmas. And so,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:29]:
as always happens every year, we've had a slurry of funerals. And so

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:32]:
there's just been a lot of a lot of death and just hearing other people

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:36]:
how they're processing their loved ones, and how

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:39]:
they saw them as treasures and just to see the interconnectedness,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:43]:
but most pointedly with father Jeff Huard. That's probably my high and

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:47]:
my hard.

Kenna Millea [00:06:47]:
Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. I've heard many priests quote him,

Kenna Millea [00:06:51]:
like, verbatim. Like, he just, clearly is imprinted

Kenna Millea [00:06:55]:
in your minds and hearts. So yeah. Thanks for sharing a bit about

Kenna Millea [00:06:59]:
how he impacted you.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:00]:
Thank you. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:07:01]:
Yeah. Thanks for that. My high, for

Pat Millea [00:07:05]:
sure, it's the most wonderful time of the year, man.

Pat Millea [00:07:09]:
This episode will release on, I think, Christmas Eve 2023. So

Pat Millea [00:07:13]:
if you're listening to this on, like, June 22nd, I I'm sorry.

Pat Millea [00:07:17]:
And I know that it's weird if it's 87 degrees outside. But for me,

Pat Millea [00:07:21]:
Christmas time is where I shine in a lot of ways. I just

Pat Millea [00:07:24]:
love it.

Kenna Millea [00:07:25]:
I love it. Sit here in a red and green plaid shirt.

Pat Millea [00:07:27]:
I didn't even plan that out. Yeah. It's kind of a Christmas plaid shirt I

Pat Millea [00:07:30]:
have on right now. I know. But I I I just love, like, I love

Pat Millea [00:07:34]:
the family time. I love the food. I love the movies. I love the

Pat Millea [00:07:38]:
decorations. I love the music, it just it all is

Pat Millea [00:07:42]:
a whole vibe for me, and I love it so much. And I inflict that

Pat Millea [00:07:45]:
love upon all the people that are close to me, and kinda has to tolerate

Pat Millea [00:07:49]:
it, quite a bit. The hard is, I

Pat Millea [00:07:53]:
think, related, and this is probably it's gonna sound,

Pat Millea [00:07:57]:
deeper than it probably is. But it is, like, this thing in my

Pat Millea [00:08:01]:
life where, like, the

Pat Millea [00:08:05]:
The my hopes and dreams for, like, the perfect Christmas, capital t, capital

Pat Millea [00:08:09]:
p, capital c, are always hilarious in my mind

Pat Millea [00:08:12]:
because they will never be lived up to. You know? There's always a

Pat Millea [00:08:16]:
gap between what I wish Christmas or what I expect Christmas to

Pat Millea [00:08:20]:
be like and what reality allows us in our normal daily

Pat Millea [00:08:23]:
life. You know, I was watching Christmas Vacation while doing dishes a

Pat Millea [00:08:27]:
few nights ago, of course, because that's on my mandatory Christmas

Pat Millea [00:08:31]:
movie list every year. And a big part of that movie is at the

Pat Millea [00:08:34]:
beginning when, Clark Griswold's wife says to

Pat Millea [00:08:38]:
him, you just build these things up in your mind and nothing can ever live

Pat Millea [00:08:41]:
up to these expectation. And he and he goes, when have I ever done

Pat Millea [00:08:45]:
that? And she takes a minute and goes, birthdays,

Pat Millea [00:08:49]:
Anniversaries, family vacations,

Pat Millea [00:08:53]:
1st day of school, and he just starts rattling through. And he just turns off

Pat Millea [00:08:56]:
the light. And then, anyway, So I am guilty of that. And also

Pat Millea [00:09:00]:
it helps me to realize that we were not made for this

Pat Millea [00:09:04]:
world. And it's a good reminder to me that, like, the best that this world

Pat Millea [00:09:07]:
has to offer will still be disappointing because we're

Pat Millea [00:09:11]:
not just made for Christmas lights and nice music. You know?

Kenna Millea [00:09:15]:
Figgy pudding.

Pat Millea [00:09:16]:
Figgy pudding. Someday, I want to have figgy pudding

Pat Millea [00:09:20]:
just to say that I have. Yeah. And I want to tell someone, now Bring

Pat Millea [00:09:23]:
me some piggy pudding.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:24]:
That's what

Pat Millea [00:09:25]:
I wanna

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:26]:
And just to be fair, if Elf on a Shelf were to come alive, it

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:30]:
would be Pat. Yes. Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:09:33]:
The advantage is legit until last night at, like,

Kenna Millea [00:09:36]:
9:30, I put together these tiny little bud vases Of these winter

Kenna Millea [00:09:40]:
berries and winter white flowers. I have done 0

Kenna Millea [00:09:44]:
decorating in our house. Our entire house is courtesy of Pat and

Kenna Millea [00:09:48]:
his minion elves Called our children.

Kenna Millea [00:09:51]:
they are drinking the Kool Aid with Daddy.

Pat Millea [00:09:53]:
It is a little bit of, like, when Buddy the elf decorates his family's apartment

Pat Millea [00:09:57]:
in the middle of the night without their permission, and he destroys the TV,

Pat Millea [00:10:00]:
like, cabinet to make a rocking chair or rocking horse, you know. Anyway,

Pat Millea [00:10:04]:
so I'm guilty of that for sure. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:10:06]:
No. It's good.

Pat Millea [00:10:07]:
Please forgive me for being overzealous because

Pat Millea [00:10:11]:
we're talking forgiveness. Oh, I see what you did

Pat Millea [00:10:14]:
there. Maybe in more significant ways than just someone who's really

Pat Millea [00:10:18]:
excited about a holiday. But, this

Pat Millea [00:10:22]:
there is no bad time to talk about forgiveness

Pat Millea [00:10:26]:
and the importance that it has in the hearts and minds

Pat Millea [00:10:29]:
and including in the mental health of humans all over the world.

Pat Millea [00:10:33]:
But I would say that if you do happen to be listening to this sometime

Pat Millea [00:10:37]:
around Thanksgiving, Christmas, that this time of year, which

Pat Millea [00:10:41]:
You referenced, Kenna, can be a really difficult time in some ways for a lot

Pat Millea [00:10:44]:
of folks with family relationships, with long standing

Pat Millea [00:10:48]:
Tensions and pains and hurts and even really terrible

Pat Millea [00:10:52]:
things that people have done to each other and have never been resolved or forgiven.

Pat Millea [00:10:56]:
This is a a really, kind of crucial

Pat Millea [00:10:59]:
time of year for the topic of forgiveness to come up in in our minds

Pat Millea [00:11:03]:
and in our hearts. So it's a great opportunity to reflect on that a little

Pat Millea [00:11:07]:
bit today.

Kenna Millea [00:11:08]:
Well and interestingly, Pat, this time last year, we released

Kenna Millea [00:11:12]:
The episode on navigating difficult relationships, the

Kenna Millea [00:11:16]:
three of us recorded that together That's right. In anticipation again Of

Kenna Millea [00:11:20]:
folks being with family and and being among

Kenna Millea [00:11:23]:
relationships that have a lot of history. And so I love that we're, We're, you

Kenna Millea [00:11:27]:
know, coming around 365 days later, and, like, our follow-up is like, yeah. And what's

Kenna Millea [00:11:31]:
the next step? Like, more than just tolerating, but, like, talking about

Kenna Millea [00:11:35]:
forgiveness and being active In considering, yeah, what does it look

Kenna Millea [00:11:38]:
like to forgive? So I know, Father, you've

Kenna Millea [00:11:42]:
certainly through the confessional and preaching, like, been able to and in

Kenna Millea [00:11:46]:
direction, been able to share with others a lot about forgiveness, and so

Kenna Millea [00:11:50]:
we're looking forward to kind of breaking that open. But something that I can say

Kenna Millea [00:11:54]:
from my seat as a therapist And also as a human, it's just like

Kenna Millea [00:11:57]:
it's not intuitive. And so it it needs to be

Kenna Millea [00:12:01]:
talked about, and we need to consider What are the elements? What are

Kenna Millea [00:12:05]:
the aspects? Because, I think a lot of other things masquerade

Kenna Millea [00:12:08]:
as forgiveness, and they're not actually forgiveness, which is why we still

Kenna Millea [00:12:12]:
stub our toe on them so deeply. So yeah. So maybe we can go there,

Kenna Millea [00:12:16]:
father.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:12:16]:
No. I think that's a great point. And I I think where we get stuck

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:12:20]:
is justice is intuitive. Mhmm. So I mean, you just you literally just

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:12:24]:
have to watch kids play, and they're just, like, that's not fair. I get this.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:12:27]:
I want this. Like, you don't have to teach justice. Just like, ain't

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:12:31]:
nobody teaching justice. Alright? Everyone's very well aware. Forgiveness

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:12:34]:
has to literally be taught.

Kenna Millea [00:12:37]:
Yeah. Mhmm. Would you even say that that justice is like,

Kenna Millea [00:12:41]:
I think about development. Like, justice is, innate,

Kenna Millea [00:12:44]:
inborn, and in that way, not a sign of maturation. Like forgiveness

Kenna Millea [00:12:48]:
would actually be an indication that someone

Kenna Millea [00:12:52]:
is progressing in the human life.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:12:54]:
And I I think this is one of the things it, I mean, this is

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:12:56]:
where I'm I'm grateful to be a Christian speaking about this because it is

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:00]:
definitely one of the things that we as Christians highlight as the importance of forgiveness.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:04]:
Yeah. But just to be very clear, like, in in just kind of world

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:07]:
religions and even world philosophies, that that's not always the

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:11]:
case Actually, in in in especially in the Greek and the Roman, forgiveness would have

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:14]:
been seen as a real weakness. Mhmm. And so it it wouldn't have been something

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:18]:
sad. It's like Stoicism was really, really the predominant thing.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:22]:
And so it's just it's something that's very beautiful in our tradition, and I think

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:26]:
that when you combine it with Psychotherapy, I think it does

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:30]:
really elevate the person to the fullness of what it means to

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:34]:
to live. And I I'm not surprised that when Christ came among

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:37]:
us, this is one of the predominant themes that he spoke about, because

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:41]:
humanity wasn't getting it.

Pat Millea [00:13:42]:
Right? Mhmm. A necessary theme. Yeah. Yeah. And

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:45]:
you they love justice.

Pat Millea [00:13:46]:
Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:47]:
Not a big fan of forgiveness.

Pat Millea [00:13:48]:
Yeah. And it's helpful to, I think, to acknowledge that for the scope

Pat Millea [00:13:52]:
of this episode as well that what this episode is not gonna be is

Pat Millea [00:13:55]:
some theological breakdown of the

Pat Millea [00:13:59]:
spiritual value of forgiveness. I think all you have to do is read the gospel,

Pat Millea [00:14:03]:
and you can easily find the spiritual value of forgiveness. I mean, Jesus

Pat Millea [00:14:06]:
makes it really, really clear. We will be forgiven to the extent

Pat Millea [00:14:10]:
that we forgive others. Right? So so that is a different

Pat Millea [00:14:15]:
kind of subtopic for a different day. What we're concerned with today

Pat Millea [00:14:19]:
is the freedom that forgiveness allows in a mental

Pat Millea [00:14:22]:
and psychological way for people, especially who follow Christ.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:12:53]:
So, I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:26]:
mean, this is just just this point. So Saint Thomas Aquinas, he would say grace

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:29]:
perfects nature. It's oftentimes quoted as grace builds upon

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:33]:
nature. Right. But even just to look on, like, the natural level, and this is

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:37]:
where the the self help books and even, like, pop psychology have really

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:40]:
bit onto forgiveness

Pat Millea [00:14:43]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:41]:
Because of its Psychological benefits. And

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:45]:
so it's interesting to see the secular sphere really

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:49]:
kinda push forward With forgiveness language, not

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:52]:
because it's moral, not because, you

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:56]:
know, it's a good thing to do for God. It's literally healthy for

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:00]:
you.

Pat Millea [00:15:00]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:01]:
And so even just like to read studies. Like, they've done studies on people who

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:04]:
would forgive, and they measure blood pressure. They checked in with

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:08]:
weight, Sleep patterns, overall satisfaction with life, depression and

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:12]:
anxiety levels. For the persons that forgive, All of

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:16]:
these are low. And for the person who doesn't, they're

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:20]:
just filled with this angst. So it's just really interesting because,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:23]:
You know, when Christ speaks about forgiveness, it's just

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:27]:
about, like, this is how you actually are meant to live in reality.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:31]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Whereas when the pop psychologists

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:35]:
Or, you know, self help person is speaking about it. It's much more of, like,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:39]:
how can you self better you?

Kenna Millea [00:15:41]:
Mhmm. With something to put on?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:43]:
Yeah. And It is. But it's it's it's how do you set yourself free. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:15:46]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:47]:
So there's there's no connection necessarily with other people or even with your higher

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:50]:
power. It's just it's it it it it actually kind of

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:54]:
grabs really close to the justice sense. What do I get out of it?

Pat Millea [00:15:57]:
Sure. Sure.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:58]:
So, like, yeah, Yeah. I'm not gonna fix this whole thing that's all wrong over

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:01]:
here, but if I forgive and just let it go, I'm actually the

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:05]:
victor, and I come out better.

Pat Millea [00:16:07]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:08]:
Which is not how Christ talks about forgiveness at all. So

Pat Millea [00:15:32]:
Which is

Pat Millea [00:16:11]:
sounds like it's kind of putting the cart before the horse a little bit. Like,

Pat Millea [00:16:14]:
the The the point of forgiveness is not self

Pat Millea [00:16:18]:
improvement. It's not just to improve my quality of life. Again,

Pat Millea [00:16:21]:
Christ makes it really clear. The the point of importance is to

Pat Millea [00:16:25]:
act like God for others, to give them the same gift that we

Pat Millea [00:16:28]:
have been given. One of the benefits of forgiveness, if we

Pat Millea [00:16:32]:
do it for that purpose, is that we will be in line

Pat Millea [00:16:36]:
with the way we were made. That we were made to be free from

Pat Millea [00:16:40]:
the kind of resentment and bitterness and angst that

Pat Millea [00:16:44]:
comes from holding on to grudges like that. And we are

Pat Millea [00:16:48]:
given the gift then of wholeness as a response to living in a

Pat Millea [00:16:52]:
way that is whole and holy. You know?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:54]:
So, I mean, I think to to this point of the kind of the distinction

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:57]:
where I've seen this lived out in the secular sphere in a way that, like,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:01]:
I'm actually really okay with because I think it kind of gives a context of

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:04]:
the importance for, I mean, it's seed is like steps.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:08]:
Right? Like, I first have to be able to be a free human being before

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:12]:
I kind of I'm able to love people. I'm constantly

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:15]:
looking like, what's my due. The odds of me actually treating someone good aren't

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:19]:
great. But if you say like, hey. You know what? I'm actually kind of at

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:22]:
peace with the rest of the world. I'm actually able to Gauge on

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:25]:
a level that might lead me to something that's a little bit higher. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:29]:
So, like, 12 step programs. Alright? One of the

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:33]:
steps, 8th The 8th step talks about you have to

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:36]:
go and ask forgiveness for those that you've wronged. And

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:40]:
it's saying very clearly you can't get sober until you do this.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:44]:
And one of the things that people who are working with recovering addicts have seen

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:48]:
is as resentments build, So unforgiveness

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:52]:
builds. The people actually seek out their addiction to

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:56]:
alleviate the pain. Sure. And so they won't experience

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:00]:
Freedom until they go to these people and say, will you forgive me for

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:03]:
this? And maybe this is getting a little bit too deep into the practicals, but,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:07]:
like, one of the things I've treasured about this 8th step is

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:10]:
that all of the books and teachers about it are so clear. You

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:14]:
cannot use the word b u

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:18]:
t. You can't say but.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:22]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:18:23]:
You're, like, negates everything that before the but.

Pat Millea [00:18:25]:
It does. It really does.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:27]:
And you see the justice piece. Right? Like, you know, I really I I forgive

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:31]:
you or no. I ask I ask forgiveness For the time where I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:34]:
stole your car, but you never share it with me.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:38]:
And you're like, thank thank you?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:42]:
So this is where, like, in when you're doing a 8th step, you you actually

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:46]:
are not allowed to use the word but. And I think even if we look

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:49]:
at this, like, we See how attracted we are to justice. So even when we're

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:52]:
moving towards forgiveness, you wanna throw that b u t and to say, oh,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:56]:
yeah. Yeah. You know, please forgive me or I forgive you, And then there's the

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:59]:
caveat. Yeah. Christ doesn't give caveats.

Pat Millea [00:19:02]:
Mhmm. What's really funny is we literally just had

Pat Millea [00:19:06]:
a conversation, like, 3 nights ago, you and I kinda about this exact interplay. Because

Pat Millea [00:19:10]:
so there are grand levels of forgiveness,

Pat Millea [00:19:14]:
like you're talking about Father, in in addiction and decades long

Pat Millea [00:19:17]:
hurts that have happened in families and marriages and relationships.

Pat Millea [00:19:21]:
Right? Those are those are a a level all their own. There are

Pat Millea [00:19:25]:
also little things that we need to ask for and offer

Pat Millea [00:19:28]:
forgiveness for just day to day. So, earlier this week,

Pat Millea [00:19:32]:
kinda, you were saying to me, it really irks me when you

Pat Millea [00:19:36]:
tell me that you're sorry for doing

Pat Millea [00:19:40]:
something And then give me at least 1, maybe a

Pat Millea [00:19:43]:
dozen reasons that you did that thing. Mhmm. Because the way

Pat Millea [00:19:47]:
you said it was, like, the way what it sounds like you're saying is, I

Pat Millea [00:19:50]:
I guess, technically, I'm sorry, but I really

Pat Millea [00:19:54]:
don't need to apologize because I was constrained by all of

Pat Millea [00:19:58]:
these extenuating circumstances. I

Pat Millea [00:20:01]:
didn't actually choose it. I was forced into it, so we're done

Pat Millea [00:20:05]:
here. Right? And it really is. Like, that's that's a that's a

Pat Millea [00:20:09]:
constant battle that I have to fight, not just in marriage, but with a lot

Pat Millea [00:20:11]:
of different conversations in my life is just admitting

Pat Millea [00:20:15]:
that I was wrong, period.

Kenna Millea [00:20:20]:
Well and I think that yeah. I mean, first of all, doesn't everyone wanna hang

Kenna Millea [00:20:23]:
out with us at night? These are the conversations that we have

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:58]:
Do

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:20:26]:
you ever sleep? I'm just hearing what you guys do.

Pat Millea [00:20:28]:
It ended very well.

Kenna Millea [00:20:32]:
It did. It did. But, yeah, it's it's intensity most of the day.

Kenna Millea [00:20:36]:
But I'm thinking about 2. So if we just go back a little bit, like,

Kenna Millea [00:20:39]:
the like, Father, what you're saying of People

Kenna Millea [00:20:43]:
are figuring out that there are impacts, right,

Kenna Millea [00:20:46]:
real physiological effects of holding on to

Kenna Millea [00:20:50]:
grudges, being resentful, not Forgiving,

Kenna Millea [00:20:54]:
for ourselves and, you know, for for those around us.

Kenna Millea [00:20:58]:
And I know, Father, you introduced me to that AA phrase, and I'm sure

Kenna Millea [00:21:02]:
I'm gonna butcher, but something like like holding on to resentment is

Kenna Millea [00:21:05]:
like taking a spoonful of poison and hoping the other person dies.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:21:08]:
That's right. No. You got it. You nailed it.

Kenna Millea [00:21:09]:
And and That that's so that has stuck with me because it's so

Kenna Millea [00:21:13]:
true. Like, I can think about the times when I

Kenna Millea [00:21:17]:
have held on to that And how difficult

Kenna Millea [00:21:21]:
it makes, well, first of all, I'm not living in reality.

Kenna Millea [00:21:24]:
But secondly, just the the the

Kenna Millea [00:21:28]:
toxicity that, like, it exists in me that I

Kenna Millea [00:21:32]:
just harbor that and hang on to it. So, yeah,

Kenna Millea [00:21:35]:
I don't know if you guys have your, like, own experiences of that, but I

Kenna Millea [00:21:38]:
can I can think of, unfortunately, quite a few situations where,

Kenna Millea [00:21:42]:
I have lived that?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:21:43]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:21:44]:
And it is, Yeah. It's real. If I'm honest with myself, that is very

Kenna Millea [00:21:47]:
real, that it doesn't actually accomplish what I was hoping

Kenna Millea [00:21:51]:
for anyway, by the way. And worse, I end

Kenna Millea [00:21:55]:
up in the red fort.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:21:56]:
I mean, it is again, it's the justice piece and why we hold on to

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:00]:
it. Right? It's like, I'm not gonna forgive you because then it says what you

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:03]:
did is okay. So I'm gonna keep on holding on to that until

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:07]:
justice is done. So until you Repent and crawl towards me on

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:11]:
your knees or, you know, you say, here's all the wrongs that I've

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:14]:
done and you are correct. I'm gonna hold on to that because

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:18]:
it's owed to me. Mhmm. And and it kinda actually it even kind of

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:22]:
goes into something that we love to talk about, especially, like, kind of our modern

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:26]:
Era is karma. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:22:27]:
Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:28]:
It's the same kind of a justice thing of, like, oh, oh, go go

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:31]:
ahead. You you can do all those bad things. Karma's gonna get you. Yeah. I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:35]:
think Taylor Swift has a song about it.

Pat Millea [00:22:37]:
I think her whole catalog is about that, really.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:42]:
But, I mean, it is it's it's it comes from a Hindu principle, But it's

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:45]:
it's really justice oriented is even if I can't get

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:48]:
it, this magical force of karma is gonna

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:52]:
smack you down. But as you're waiting for that, you're

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:56]:
doing exactly what Kenna was saying is you're consuming this poison, hoping the other person

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:00]:
gets hurt. Mhmm. When actually what Christ is showing us is

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:04]:
you you can be free right now.

Kenna Millea [00:23:05]:
Yeah. Well, that's exactly the word I was thinking of is free. Like, I'm when

Kenna Millea [00:23:08]:
in those situations, when I've been in that place, Like, I wasn't free.

Kenna Millea [00:23:12]:
I think about how much space in my mind was

Kenna Millea [00:23:16]:
taken up with, you know, just kind of ruminating on it or imagining

Kenna Millea [00:23:19]:
a situation or, like, Imagining a a scene of, like, redemption and,

Kenna Millea [00:23:23]:
like, you know, or vengeance worse,

Kenna Millea [00:23:26]:
and how I am not Free. And so who is

Kenna Millea [00:23:30]:
actually winning? Like, you know, in that in that moment, like,

Kenna Millea [00:23:34]:
who is actually benefiting from this? Sometimes I don't even think that the

Kenna Millea [00:23:38]:
person who knows that I'm upset notices, cares.

Pat Millea [00:23:42]:
Like, isn't there? Absolutely. Right. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:23:44]:
To be perfectly honest, Like, I don't know. I'm maybe there are people out in

Kenna Millea [00:23:47]:
the world harboring resentment against me, and I'm not aware of it because that's how

Kenna Millea [00:23:51]:
it works. So, like, they're the ones holding on to that gross

Kenna Millea [00:23:55]:
Fine.

Pat Millea [00:23:55]:
I think of a a time in ministry years years years ago

Pat Millea [00:23:59]:
where there was a really terrible situation

Pat Millea [00:24:03]:
with, somebody that I worked with at a parish and somebody who was

Pat Millea [00:24:07]:
a volunteer at the parish who were essentially

Pat Millea [00:24:10]:
actively working for the end of my job, basically.

Kenna Millea [00:24:15]:
We can laugh now. We were not Iaughing them.

Pat Millea [00:24:18]:
We were not laughing then. No. I'm laughing now because I was

Pat Millea [00:24:21]:
specifically not laughing then, and I was doing exactly what you were talking about, Kenna.

Pat Millea [00:24:25]:
I was just spending umpteen hours a day obsessing

Pat Millea [00:24:28]:
about how this thing was gonna get resolved. And, of course, when I

Pat Millea [00:24:32]:
was all up in my head and I was considering, like, Well, should I say

Pat Millea [00:24:36]:
this? What should I do next? If I do that, it's gonna go really badly.

Pat Millea [00:24:39]:
I wasn't forgiving during any of that stuff. I I had to

Pat Millea [00:24:42]:
make Very concrete steps to forgive after the

Pat Millea [00:24:46]:
fact, which was good, but I would have been even better served

Pat Millea [00:24:50]:
doing little moments of forgiveness along the way too.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:53]:
So I I think too what when and you kind of you actually briefly touched

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:56]:
on a path of when we're creating in our mind what the scenario is going

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:00]:
on or what's happening in the other person or what they're plotting and scheming. And

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:04]:
so then the resentment just keeps building. So it's like, I can't believe this and

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:07]:
this.

Pat Millea [00:25:08]:
Mhmm. And

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:08]:
it sound like even more wrongs have been done. Mhmm. It's just that I've been

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:11]:
building it to such an exponential level that now it's

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:15]:
massive, and it's actually It's intoxicating. It's all I think

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:19]:
about, and it's crushing. Mhmm. And so, again, going back to just some

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:22]:
of the self help 12 step kind of things

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:26]:
is just just the the imagery, that, can I give a

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:30]:
couple practicals? Yeah. Please. So the the imagery of keeping your side

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:34]:
of the street clean. Mhmm. And I I love this

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:37]:
verbiage because so often what happens in the work of forgiveness

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:41]:
is we say, Forgiveness and reconciliation are exactly

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:45]:
the same.

Pat Millea [00:25:46]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:46]:
And so then we we wait for that piece of, like, okay. Now we're gonna

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:49]:
be friends again, or the the other person's gonna humble themselves. And

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:53]:
what 12 step program says, no. No. No. Can you just keep

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:56]:
your side of the street clean? Mhmm. Reconciliation

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:00]:
is when both parties come from their sides of the street,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:04]:
shake hands in the middle of the street, and go, dude. We're good. We're good.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:08]:
But, like, this is like, even the example you gave, Pat, right, is like, okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:12]:
Maybe there are people that are plotting for your job. There probably was at that

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:14]:
point. And as that's happening, you say, okay. What

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:18]:
do I have to own on my side?

Pat Millea [00:26:20]:
Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:21]:
And and this is this is that kind of responsibility of the self, which

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:25]:
is very sobering and very difficult. But

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:29]:
once we clean up the side of our own street, we can

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:32]:
actually look over and say, oh, man. Dude, you got you got some stuff to

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:35]:
do. And when you're ready, hey. Happy to meet you in the center. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:38]:
But I'm not gonna try to sweep your side of the street. I'm just gonna

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:42]:
work on the stuff that's binding me and inhibiting me from

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:45]:
freedom. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:26:46]:
And I love that delineation because that

Pat Millea [00:26:50]:
conflation of forgiveness and reconciliation, I think, is

Pat Millea [00:26:53]:
so, difficult for us to get over. And maybe it maybe it partially is

Pat Millea [00:26:57]:
just semantics for us as Catholics that we have an entire

Pat Millea [00:27:01]:
sacrament called Reconciliation that is all about forgiveness,

Pat Millea [00:27:05]:
but that's us reconciling with God who is always

Pat Millea [00:27:09]:
happy to reconcile with us. It does not mean that we

Pat Millea [00:27:14]:
receive reconciliation every time we forgive a human being or

Pat Millea [00:27:18]:
are forgiven by them. That forgiveness of another person asking

Pat Millea [00:27:22]:
for forgiveness doesn't mean that the relationship will be perfectly

Pat Millea [00:27:25]:
restored or that it may ever be restored. Mhmm. You know? There may

Pat Millea [00:27:29]:
be legitimate and very just in the good sense

Pat Millea [00:27:32]:
of justice, very just consequences for people's actions

Pat Millea [00:27:36]:
down the road even after the process of forgiveness.

Kenna Millea [00:27:39]:
Yeah. Well and just to kind of testify

Kenna Millea [00:27:43]:
to the impact of that imagery, Like, that

Kenna Millea [00:27:47]:
is literally the first thing you ever said to me, Father.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:50]:
Really?

Kenna Millea [00:27:50]:
It is. Because I met you 11 years

Kenna Millea [00:27:54]:
ago at in

Pat Millea [00:27:55]:
The Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:58]:
Happy anniversary. I don't remember it and can't speak about it.

Kenna Millea [00:28:01]:
It's all good. It's all good.

Pat Millea [00:27:58]:
Friendiversary.

Kenna Millea [00:28:03]:
So he's like, I will not acknowledge

Pat Millea [00:28:07]:
You were there that night.

Kenna Millea [00:28:08]:
It's a Catholic joke. But, so so, like,

Kenna Millea [00:28:11]:
that night, the counsel you gave me was super brief,

Kenna Millea [00:28:15]:
but you spoke to me about, like, I'm I probably had a lot

Kenna Millea [00:28:19]:
of buts in there, and maybe that's part of why, you know, who knows? You

Kenna Millea [00:28:22]:
shared that, but it it really unlocked something for me that night, which is then

Kenna Millea [00:28:26]:
why I, like, chased you around town and made you my spiritual director and my

Kenna Millea [00:28:29]:
friend. But, but it It unlocked something for me because being

Kenna Millea [00:28:33]:
in a place of resentment and being so focused on

Kenna Millea [00:28:37]:
all of the defects of other people's streets, because

Kenna Millea [00:28:41]:
let's be real, they're there, had me

Kenna Millea [00:28:44]:
stuck. Like, it had me stymied, And it also prevented me from being

Kenna Millea [00:28:48]:
able to see what I could take control over, which was my own side of

Kenna Millea [00:28:52]:
the street. And that is empowering. Yeah. It's it's liberating,

Kenna Millea [00:28:55]:
and it's so it's peace

Kenna Millea [00:28:59]:
giving, because we all want to be moving toward

Kenna Millea [00:29:02]:
betterment. Right? Like, and so why not take

Kenna Millea [00:29:06]:
control of the things that we can? So first of all, just yeah. Happy anniversary

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:29:10]:
Thank you.

Kenna Millea [00:29:11]:
Of the beginning of this friendship. And, just really want to

Kenna Millea [00:29:14]:
say, yeah, how helpful that that image still is.

Kenna Millea [00:29:18]:
You know, yesterday, Pat and I were talking about, a relationship in our

Kenna Millea [00:29:22]:
life. And and it was so helpful, again, to use this language. I said,

Kenna Millea [00:29:26]:
I know that I've forgiven that person, And I can say we're

Kenna Millea [00:29:29]:
on the road to reconciliation. Like, it is this process of,

Kenna Millea [00:29:34]:
coming to to really desire connection and to really,

Kenna Millea [00:29:38]:
want to be, you know, in each other's lives again. Forgiveness actually doesn't

Kenna Millea [00:29:42]:
require that. No. Like, to forgive doesn't mean I have to be best friends or

Kenna Millea [00:29:46]:
we have to be, you know, Saturday morning coffee pals.

Pat Millea [00:29:49]:
That's what I was just gonna say is the the getting into kind of the

Pat Millea [00:29:53]:
more practicals about how forgiveness looks, What it sounds like you're

Pat Millea [00:29:57]:
saying, and I think we, you know, we could agree. Tell me if you look

Pat Millea [00:30:00]:
at this a different way, Father, is that forgiveness does not mean

Pat Millea [00:30:04]:
that we're gonna have the same relationship we did before.

Pat Millea [00:30:08]:
Forgiveness does not mean that, you

Pat Millea [00:30:11]:
I I will not forgive you until you clean up

Pat Millea [00:30:15]:
your issues, until you make right the wrong that

Pat Millea [00:30:19]:
you have done. I'm not waiting for you to fix the problem necessarily.

Pat Millea [00:30:23]:
Forgiveness does not mean even that I can

Pat Millea [00:30:27]:
communicate to you that I have forgiven you. You know?

Pat Millea [00:30:30]:
There there may be relationships that It would be unhealthy to

Pat Millea [00:30:34]:
tell someone that you have forgiven them because the relationship is

Pat Millea [00:30:38]:
so far gone. Maybe the person that I need to forgive is not alive

Pat Millea [00:30:41]:
anymore. Maybe their life on earth is over and I need to extend

Pat Millea [00:30:45]:
forgiveness, but there's no way for me to tell them. So there are all these

Pat Millea [00:30:48]:
stipulations that forgiveness does not require. Right?

Pat Millea [00:30:52]:
It's a it's a personal act. It's a gift that we give to others and

Pat Millea [00:30:56]:
ourselves.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:57]:
Yeah. I think just to kinda give it might seem like a strange,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:01]:
analogy, but I'm gonna go there. Okay?

Pat Millea [00:31:03]:
Beautiful. The stranger, the better.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:05]:
One one of the things that I will never forget is when I got food

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:08]:
poisoning at Burger King.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:12]:
I I I will not go to Burger King ever again.

Pat Millea [00:31:15]:
You've been burned?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:16]:
I've been I've been burned.

Kenna Millea [00:31:18]:
Good news. You're not missing that much.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:21]:
But so here's here's how I bring this up. Right? Is every Burger King gonna

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:24]:
give me food poisoning, well no, they'd be closed as a chain. Right?

Pat Millea [00:31:27]:
Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:28]:
But I just have those memories that are attached to it that really just kind

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:31]:
of stir up a lot of strife within me and even angst.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:35]:
And so, like, okay. Does it mean that Burger King is bad? No.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:39]:
It just means that I don't feel comfortable going there, And there's other food choices.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:43]:
So the same thing in regards to relationships. Right? Let's say someone,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:47]:
like, profoundly hurt us, And there's no way

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:51]:
that we can get a reconciliation with them. Like and we don't wanna. We don't

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:54]:
feel safe with them. Like, maybe they were an abuser. Right? I mean, may

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:58]:
maybe they just did horrendous things or they're they have narcissistic tendencies where they

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:01]:
can't even own up to their thing. And even if you say, like, well, here

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:04]:
here, I'll own up to my part, And they're like, well, good. You are a

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:07]:
horrible person.

Pat Millea [00:32:08]:
You're Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:08]:
Okay. This did not work well. So there are people that

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:12]:
are just toxic that we can't get Along with it, they've

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:16]:
they have such, a sway over our

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:19]:
memory and our angst and even trauma responses then we can just say,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:23]:
hey. Look. My side of the street's clean. I'm I'm good with it. Like Burger

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:26]:
King, I don't hate you. I'm just I'm just not gonna go to you anymore.

Pat Millea [00:32:30]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:31]:
And there there is there is nothing anti Christian about that. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:35]:
Like, just to say, like, I don't feel safe. I don't feel okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:39]:
It is okay to say that. And I think this is what the beautiful

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:42]:
part of Christ's teaching on forgiveness is, is he

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:46]:
doesn't say that you always have to go And fix it all

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:50]:
because sometimes you can't. Sometimes you can't fix

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:54]:
it. And to be able to say, well, what do I do then? What is

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:57]:
my responsibility if I can't fix this. And it's to do

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:33:01]:
what what what Jesus says is forgive 7 times 7. Just keep keep on

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:33:05]:
forgiving.

Pat Millea [00:33:06]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:33:06]:
Well, and I also think too about, Pat, something that you say a lot to

Kenna Millea [00:33:10]:
our kids. I've heard you say it millions of times in talks and things like

Kenna Millea [00:33:13]:
that. But, like, We are all called to love. Like, to to will the

Kenna Millea [00:33:17]:
good of the other does not have to mean being in a relationship

Kenna Millea [00:33:21]:
with them. And so, you know, to

Kenna Millea [00:33:24]:
my knowledge, you aren't, like, on the social media slandering Burger King.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:33:28]:
So I I am not, Burger King. I am not.

Pat Millea [00:33:31]:
Which, by the way, be careful with that because Burger King has one of the

Pat Millea [00:33:34]:
funnier, more snarky social media accounts in the

Pat Millea [00:33:38]:
world.

Kenna Millea [00:33:38]:
They're gonna start following us.

Pat Millea [00:33:40]:
Their, for my money, their Twitter account is way better than their food, if that

Pat Millea [00:33:46]:
says anything.

Kenna Millea [00:33:47]:
Never thought I'd hear that. Okay. But but I just yeah. I wanna be clear

Kenna Millea [00:33:51]:
about that. Like, that that that is what I think is so intriguing about

Kenna Millea [00:33:54]:
Jesus, as he says, those things can exist together. Mhmm. That I can love you

Kenna Millea [00:33:58]:
and will your good and also set a boundary

Kenna Millea [00:34:02]:
and and say, I Decide not to be connected with you or, you know, in

Kenna Millea [00:34:06]:
a friendship or an intimate way, that those 2 things can exist

Kenna Millea [00:34:09]:
together, is huge.

Pat Millea [00:34:11]:
Well, the same Jesus who said forgive 70 times

Pat Millea [00:34:15]:
7, and you will only be forgiven to the extent that you forgive

Pat Millea [00:34:18]:
others. It's the same Jesus that said, if they don't let you stay in

Pat Millea [00:34:22]:
their town, shake the dust off and move on. It's the same Jesus that

Pat Millea [00:34:26]:
said, If if a brother won't listen to you when you bring your

Pat Millea [00:34:30]:
admonitions to him, your just admonitions, then at a

Pat Millea [00:34:33]:
certain point, you just gotta treat him like one of the Gentiles. And it doesn't

Pat Millea [00:34:36]:
mean you hate him. So, like, when when James and John wanna call

Pat Millea [00:34:40]:
down fire from heaven upon that village, Jesus says,

Pat Millea [00:34:43]:
no, morons - he didn't say morons. No, guys. That's not

Pat Millea [00:34:47]:
the way of love. But he does walk this line

Pat Millea [00:34:50]:
of it does not mean that you have to be in a

Pat Millea [00:34:54]:
tight and comfortable relationship with everyone that you encounter,

Pat Millea [00:34:57]:
you are called to forgive, though.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:34:59]:
And this is where even when Christ does use the word reconcile. Right? He's like,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:03]:
if you know that your brother has something against you, leave your

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:07]:
gifts at the altar, go and reconcile with him

Pat Millea [00:35:10]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:09]:
And come and offer. Right? So even with that is listen to the verbiage.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:13]:
If you know your brother has something against you. So

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:17]:
you you know your brother is hurting because he is aware of something

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:21]:
that's going on. And so you go and you say, how can I reconcile?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:24]:
Because we wanna be those bearers of peace. And this is what Christ says, blessed

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:28]:
are the peacemakers. They shall be called sons and daughters of God. And and

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:32]:
so, like, that that's where, like, even Christ teach on reconciliation. He doesn't

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:35]:
say, go to everyone.

Pat Millea [00:35:37]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:34]:
Reconcile with everyone.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:38]:
It's like he he wasn't delusional. He knew that that wasn't possible. And

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:42]:
how many times he tried even reconcile with the Pharisees and the scribes, and it

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:46]:
was just like, no go. Like, they wouldn't they wouldn't even listen. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:35:49]:
Well and recently, I was made aware, Father, of something,

Kenna Millea [00:35:53]:
and I'm totally putting you on the spot. We didn't say we're gonna talk about

Kenna Millea [00:35:56]:
this, but, but we're gonna go here. So, that you do,

Kenna Millea [00:36:00]:
which is checking in with I assume it's brother

Kenna Millea [00:36:03]:
priests that you live with usually. And I don't know what your wording

Kenna Millea [00:36:07]:
is, but I just I remember when you shared it that I was like, that

Kenna Millea [00:36:11]:
in a family life, like, woah. That

Kenna Millea [00:36:14]:
could change hearts and lives.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:15]:
Yeah. So I mean, I'm I, have the blessing and

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:19]:
the burden of being really empathetic. So, like, if I notice

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:22]:
that a brother, especially that I'm living with, is kind of not

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:26]:
engaging me in the same way that he normally would, I usually,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:30]:
my first, you know, inclination is, like, I've done something wrong, so that's probably not

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:33]:
always the healthiest because I probably haven't always done something wrong. But

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:37]:
I do want to I wanna, like, what we call clear the air. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:40]:
Clear the air is just to say, hey. I think

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:44]:
I may have wronged you, can you help me to understand if I did?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:48]:
Because I would like to own up to it. Mhmm. And, again, like, that's, like,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:51]:
this perceiving that your brother has something and trying to reconcile. I I mean, there's

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:55]:
there's there's many times, especially because I I live with a bunch of guys where

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:58]:
they're like, dude, what are you talking about? Yeah. And and I'm like, I mean,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:02]:
I don't want anything. Like, I know what you're talking about. Like, you wanna have

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:04]:
a beer? Like but, again, if if you do notice that

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:08]:
you think someone else has something against you, it really is an

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:11]:
act of mercy to try to bring that reconciliation about.

Pat Millea [00:37:15]:
Which is a good helpful turn, I think, toward the question that I'm sure

Pat Millea [00:37:18]:
that, Kenna, you've heard in sessions with clients before. Father, I'm

Pat Millea [00:37:22]:
sure you've heard it in confessions and with counsel with

Pat Millea [00:37:26]:
folks. Getting toward the question of how do I forgive, You know?

Pat Millea [00:37:29]:
Once once I'm convinced of of the command

Pat Millea [00:37:33]:
and the necessity, and once I'm convinced of the

Pat Millea [00:37:37]:
desire to do it, how do I even begin the

Pat Millea [00:37:40]:
process?

Kenna Millea [00:37:41]:
Yeah. So interestingly, we just, before this, aired

Kenna Millea [00:37:45]:
the episode on Radical Acceptance.

Pat Millea [00:37:47]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:37:47]:
And, we didn't actually think about the connection

Kenna Millea [00:37:51]:
between the 2, but I think that forgiveness can begin with

Kenna Millea [00:37:55]:
radical acceptance because oftentimes,

Kenna Millea [00:37:59]:
for me personally, I notice resentment is

Kenna Millea [00:38:02]:
in trying to replay and reimagine reality

Kenna Millea [00:38:06]:
in a different way, and radical acceptance could be that

Kenna Millea [00:38:10]:
first step toward yeah. That is what happened, and that is the

Kenna Millea [00:38:13]:
effect that it had on me. So getting real with the

Kenna Millea [00:38:17]:
impact that it had or the impact that I had, you know, whether it's that

Kenna Millea [00:38:20]:
I've been wronged or I've wronged another. Just just

Kenna Millea [00:38:24]:
being rooted in the truth of what's going on so that we can start to

Kenna Millea [00:38:28]:
you know, as we've talked about in our defensiveness episode, like, divide up the blame

Kenna Millea [00:38:31]:
pie, and I'm gonna start getting to work, eating my piece of it.

Pat Millea [00:38:34]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:38:35]:
So so I think about that as, like, a first step. The other

Kenna Millea [00:38:39]:
thing I think about is, kind of drawing from

Kenna Millea [00:38:42]:
Internal Family Systems, which again, we did an episode with Louisa Hall on

Kenna Millea [00:38:46]:
that, modality of therapy, but it talks about the

Kenna Millea [00:38:50]:
the parts language, and it can be really helpful to say,

Kenna Millea [00:38:54]:
like, a part of me when I think about justice, Father, like, a

Kenna Millea [00:38:57]:
part of me is so incensed that they could do

Kenna Millea [00:39:01]:
such a thing, and that parts language just

Kenna Millea [00:39:05]:
opens the door a little bit, Moving away from an

Kenna Millea [00:39:08]:
absolutist 100%. Like, the entirety of me thinks that that is

Kenna Millea [00:39:12]:
so appalling that so and so did such and such. Like, it's hard to make

Kenna Millea [00:39:15]:
any movement Or to start to to head toward forgiveness

Kenna Millea [00:39:19]:
or reconciliation, but to just go, yeah, a part of

Kenna Millea [00:39:23]:
me is so angry about that. And it's maybe it sounds like

Kenna Millea [00:39:26]:
semantics, but I know for me, that language can be

Kenna Millea [00:39:30]:
helpful to start to find some wiggle room to say, Maybe there's

Kenna Millea [00:39:34]:
a possibility that a part of me could also understand that

Kenna Millea [00:39:38]:
they weren't in their right mind or, you know, whatever.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:40]:
I like when you said the percentage of blame pie, and I was I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:43]:
was profoundly moved, I was talking with a friend of mine, and I I asked

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:46]:
him permission if I could share this story. But he was struggling a lot with

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:50]:
forgiveness of his father. His father had been passed away for a long time, And

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:53]:
and he just couldn't he couldn't forgive his dad. He couldn't forgive. And there's no

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:57]:
ability for, you know, a conversation, which kind of helps to ease some of the

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:01]:
the issues around forgiveness. So he went on retreat. And

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:04]:
on retreat, out of nowhere, he just felt God the Father say to

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:08]:
him, what do you need to ask your father for forgiveness?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:13]:
And he said, I just started weeping. And he goes, it was

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:16]:
only 5% of the pie, but I had to own

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:20]:
that 5%. And he's like, as soon as I owned

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:24]:
my little piece of that pie, I was free.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:28]:
And, like, it goes back to that side of the street thing. It's just to

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:31]:
say, like, okay. If that other person just fixes all that stuff, then I'll be

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:34]:
able to, you know, let it go. And it's like, well, just just own this

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:37]:
the pieces you do have. Right? And, like, even if it was a 100% wrong

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:41]:
done against you, but now you're the one harboring the unforgiveness, okay,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:45]:
there's your 5%.

Pat Millea [00:40:46]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:47]:
Let's just say, like, I I I actually I'm sorry for holding

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:50]:
unforgiveness and for hurting myself, for changing

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:54]:
how I operate with others, and for carrying that around instead of love.

Pat Millea [00:40:59]:
So step 1 might be something like embracing the reality of

Pat Millea [00:41:03]:
the situation. You know? Like, radical acceptance.

Pat Millea [00:41:07]:
What what is reality? What what was done to me? What are the

Pat Millea [00:41:10]:
ways that I've been hurt? And what

Pat Millea [00:41:14]:
is my part of the blame pie? What are the things that I am partially

Pat Millea [00:41:18]:
responsible for? You know? I think it's really valuable too as

Pat Millea [00:41:22]:
as maybe a next step to to pray and ask for the

Pat Millea [00:41:26]:
gift of forgiveness. Because Father, you mentioned that, and, Kenna, you

Pat Millea [00:41:29]:
talked about this too that justice is a very natural gift. We

Pat Millea [00:41:33]:
are we are good at justice. And that's not an entirely bad

Pat Millea [00:41:37]:
thing. I mean, justice is a wonderful

Pat Millea [00:41:40]:
gift. Justice is one of the characteristics of God himself. So justice is a

Pat Millea [00:41:44]:
good thing. Justice alone is very dangerous

Pat Millea [00:41:48]:
and very problematic. So forgiveness, on the other hand, is not

Pat Millea [00:41:52]:
a natural gift. That's something that we have to learn, and it is a grace

Pat Millea [00:41:55]:
that that we are given by God. That I forget it was in grad school.

Pat Millea [00:41:59]:
I forget where the source was. But there was a reflection that we did one

Pat Millea [00:42:02]:
time about the idea that we can never ever forgive

Pat Millea [00:42:06]:
without the grace of God. That God's work is active in

Pat Millea [00:42:09]:
every moment of forgiveness.

Kenna Millea [00:42:11]:
So Beautiful.

Pat Millea [00:42:13]:
Forgiveness is not something that I do by myself. I have to have God's

Pat Millea [00:42:16]:
help in forgiving every small thing, but especially the really

Pat Millea [00:42:20]:
big thing. So so praying to God and involving him in

Pat Millea [00:42:24]:
the process is essential. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:26]:
I mean, I think one of the ways that we do that too and this

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:28]:
is an activity that I learned, while I was in I don't know if it

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:32]:
was in and it was probably after seminary. It's kind of this realization I came

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:35]:
to when I saw a different translation of the Our Father prayer,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:40]:
Where it says forgive us forgive those forgive us our trespasses as we forgive

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:43]:
those who trespass against us. Right. One of, I think, the literal

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:47]:
definitions is forgive our debts As we forgive our

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:50]:
debtors. And just like this this kind of illumination

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:54]:
of, like, okay. What debt do I owe to

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:58]:
others and what debt do people owe to me? And I just found this

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:01]:
remarkable freedom. And, I mean, I I don't wanna go into too many details because

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:04]:
I don't wanna out the person I'm talking about. But

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:08]:
there was a really grave wrong done to me when I was in seminary,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:12]:
and it haunted me for years afterwards to the point where, like,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:17]:
When we were in presbyteral gatherings and there were other priests, I would

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:20]:
avoid that priest. I would like if someone said anything bad about

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:24]:
that other priest, I'd be like, Yes. That's right. Like, he is terrible.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:28]:
And, like, all of these kind of resentments inside. And so I just

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:32]:
thought to myself, okay. Forgive us our debts as we forgive those in debt to

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:35]:
us. And I'm like, I'm holding this priest up

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:39]:
for a fine. And so I I literally just I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:43]:
just sat down in prayer, and I said, Okay. How

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:46]:
much do I think they owe me? Like, if I were to put all of

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:49]:
the psychological and emotional pain of the wrong that I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:53]:
felt they did to me, What would amount to? And I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:57]:
don't I don't again, this might sound really crazy, but I was, like, $5.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:01]:
Five grand of damages. Mhmm. And so I literally pulled out

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:05]:
my check put checkbook. I wrote void first. Alright?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:09]:
And I wrote to, and I wrote it to the person

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:13]:
for $5,000, and I say, this is what I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:16]:
release. And it was so freeing

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:21]:
to put a value on it, to actually physically write it down,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:25]:
to let it go that I can honestly say, Then when I interacted with

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:29]:
this priest or saw this priest at gatherings, I I was I was

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:32]:
honestly a free man because I had forgiven the debt. But

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:36]:
I needed that concrete measure of actually putting a monetary

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:40]:
value. And, again, this is where I kinda accuse off of justice. Like,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:44]:
I I know values of money. Like, if someone owes me money, I don't forget.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:49]:
Like, I know exactly what they owe me. So it's just

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:53]:
easy to kinda be able to say, okay. Here's what I owe, and now it's

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:55]:
gone.

Pat Millea [00:44:56]:
I love that. That that's such a great, very concrete way, I think,

Pat Millea [00:44:59]:
of looking at forgiveness that, not that not that

Pat Millea [00:45:03]:
every harm done to me can be equated to a monetary value,

Pat Millea [00:45:07]:
but putting something on it that that helps me to see This is

Pat Millea [00:45:11]:
what I am sacrificing. I am willing to give up

Pat Millea [00:45:15]:
the debt owed to me for the sake of Forgiveness of of

Pat Millea [00:45:18]:
letting you go, letting me go of that debt. You know?

Pat Millea [00:45:22]:
I'm I'm wondering, father, what about situations where,

Pat Millea [00:45:26]:
You know, I've I I've been hurt and I've I have forgiven. I've gone through

Pat Millea [00:45:30]:
that process of forgiving the debt, but it just keeps coming

Pat Millea [00:45:34]:
up in my mind. It's something that I I'm mindful of from time to

Pat Millea [00:45:37]:
time. I still maybe have emotions and feelings

Pat Millea [00:45:41]:
around this person. What do I do when this thing

Pat Millea [00:45:45]:
just doesn't seem to go away.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:45:47]:
Yeah. I think that's a great question. I get that a lot too in confessions

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:45:50]:
where someone's like, Father, I've tried to forgive them, but it keeps It's coming up.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:45:53]:
Does that mean I've never forgiven them? And I always say, no. Actually,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:45:57]:
forgiveness works in layers. It's kinda like this ladder situation or onions

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:01]:
as they use it. So we we forgive people on deeper and deeper

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:04]:
levels. Right? So the priest that wronged me, I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:08]:
realized that the wrong that was done On one level, which was the

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:12]:
initial wrong. However, as time goes by, I think about

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:16]:
it in a different way, and so it hurts in different ways. So

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:17]:
I may have forgiven him on one level, but

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:21]:
then it pops up again. And I think, again, this is this is amazing Christ's

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:25]:
psychology of forgive 70 times 7. So

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:29]:
he knew it's gonna come up again. It's not that, like,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:33]:
your first time wasn't good. It's he's just like, it's gonna come up in layers.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:36]:
And so it doesn't negate the fact that you

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:40]:
have forgiven. It means that you're actually realizing the wrong

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:43]:
hit on multiple levels. So when things come up again,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:47]:
we just have to again sit sit down and say, okay. I guess the value

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:50]:
has changed. Like, there is some more debt that I have to release. And it

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:54]:
doesn't mean that the 1st check was invalid.

Pat Millea [00:46:57]:
Except that you wrote void on it, but that's a

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:58]:
Yeah. Fair.

Pat Millea [00:46:59]:
Fair. It's a different kind of invalid. That's okay. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:47:01]:
I am generous, but not that

Kenna Millea [00:47:05]:
People are rummaging in Father's trash bin.

Kenna Millea [00:47:09]:
So okay. So the another thing that I'm thinking about in

Kenna Millea [00:47:12]:
regard to that, like, difficulty to forgive, is it is

Kenna Millea [00:47:16]:
forgiveness of self. And I imagine, You know, in your role,

Kenna Millea [00:47:20]:
again, as priest, as confessor, you hear that often. I know I hear it a

Kenna Millea [00:47:23]:
lot in my office. And it and it's tricky

Kenna Millea [00:47:27]:
because I I own both sides of the street. I you know,

Kenna Millea [00:47:31]:
just how do we do that? I think, you know,

Kenna Millea [00:47:34]:
I was just talking to someone earlier this morning about how another

Kenna Millea [00:47:38]:
clinician about how such a hallmark of our work with

Kenna Millea [00:47:41]:
individuals is around self compassion.

Kenna Millea [00:47:45]:
And it's, yeah. Just we were reflecting on, like, wow. That really

Kenna Millea [00:47:49]:
is such a central tenet when someone is coming in in a

Kenna Millea [00:47:53]:
place of a lot of Shame and burdened with a lot

Kenna Millea [00:47:57]:
of guilt or maybe even self hatred. And so, yeah,

Kenna Millea [00:48:00]:
how do we begin to, like, untangle that, This

Kenna Millea [00:48:04]:
forgiveness of self.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:05]:
Yeah. I like I like to use the word compassion because what we love to

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:09]:
do is we take the conscience we have now, And then we

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:12]:
judge the person that made the mistake in the past. So, I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:16]:
mean, it is it's literally definition of cruelty If I had the

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:20]:
same expectations of a 38 year old as I have of a 2 year

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:23]:
old.

Pat Millea [00:48:24]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:25]:
And to say that a 2 year old thinks like a 38 year old is

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:28]:
absolute insanity. Like, no one would grant you that. So when we

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:31]:
go back oftentimes and we have that self hatred, we don't take

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:35]:
into consideration, like, What was my conscience like when I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:40]:
was 14? Definitely not developed. Definitely driven

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:43]:
by passions. But now I'm gonna judge myself with my current Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:47]:
Conscience. Yeah. Which if I had my current conscience, I would have made different choices

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:51]:
at 14. So I think that's, like, the initial step honestly in forgiving

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:55]:
oneself is just to recognize, like, okay. I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:58]:
gotta have that compassion as you mentioned, Kinda.

Pat Millea [00:49:01]:
Yeah. And it's not to say that I'm gonna excuse

Pat Millea [00:49:05]:
the sins of my past, or I'm gonna say that they are not sins

Pat Millea [00:49:09]:
because I was simply immature. I didn't make a poor choice. I didn't

Pat Millea [00:49:13]:
sin. I was just 13. You know? No.

Pat Millea [00:49:17]:
We can do both of those things. You know, I can I can have compassion

Pat Millea [00:49:20]:
for myself because I know more now than I did

Pat Millea [00:49:24]:
then? I'm I'm more close to the truth than I was

Pat Millea [00:49:27]:
then. And, also, I can forgive

Pat Millea [00:49:31]:
myself for the things that I have done, which means that I'm looking

Pat Millea [00:49:35]:
at the wrongs that I've committed in the face, that I see the

Pat Millea [00:49:38]:
wrongs even while I'm having compassion with some of the

Pat Millea [00:49:42]:
things that were weak about me in the midst of the wrongs.

Kenna Millea [00:49:45]:
Well, and it and it also I mean, it's this parallel. Right? Like, just as

Kenna Millea [00:49:48]:
we can hold resentments against others and perseverate

Kenna Millea [00:49:52]:
and kind of ruminate upon, fixate upon wrongs that they've

Kenna Millea [00:49:55]:
committed to us. When we do that in our own self, like, I can't believe

Kenna Millea [00:49:59]:
I did that. I can't believe that was a choice I made. I can't that's

Kenna Millea [00:50:01]:
a similar thing, and and there isn't growth. Like, there isn't forward

Kenna Millea [00:50:05]:
movement. There isn't an ability to go, man, that sucks that I did

Kenna Millea [00:50:09]:
that back then, and I'm so grateful now to know that that is

Kenna Millea [00:50:13]:
not kind, just, loving, you know, whatever. The thing

Kenna Millea [00:50:16]:
is, life giving. So I think there's a similar process

Kenna Millea [00:50:20]:
at play there. And so we wanna be mindful though, like, yeah, we can

Kenna Millea [00:50:24]:
apply that that to ourselves. Like, imprison our own selves

Kenna Millea [00:50:28]:
in that kind of a process if we're not careful.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:29]:
I I think a lot of times too, we we forget the reality that we're

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:33]:
just we're we're broken. Like, we make mistakes.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:37]:
So when we look back at ourselves and we have unforgiveness to ourselves, a

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:41]:
lot of times, it's not allowing for permission to actually make

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:45]:
mistakes. I mean, just on a daily basis, look how wrong our

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:48]:
senses often are. Like like, oh, it's really cold. Actually, it's

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:52]:
70 Degrees in this room. It's not cold.

Pat Millea [00:50:54]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:55]:
Okay. I guess I'm wrong. Like, we we we make mistakes constantly on

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:59]:
perception levels. So then when we look at ourselves, it's like, no. You

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:03]:
cannot make a mistake. It's like, well, of course, I make a mistake. Like, I'll

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:06]:
tell this to people in confession a lot. I said, I I know you're

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:10]:
really shocked by your sin, but God isn't.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:14]:
Like, he totally knows what we're capable of. We are

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:18]:
surprised of our sin because we're so full of ourselves.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:22]:
But God is not not not scandalized by it. He's like, yeah. I I'm not

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:26]:
surprised what human beings are capable of. So in the in the work of

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:29]:
forgiving of self, it's also to just owning the reality, like, I I am

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:33]:
gonna make mistakes. I'm not gonna have the best judgment. And I'm

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:36]:
not excusing my behavior, but I'm also

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:40]:
acknowledging reality.

Pat Millea [00:51:42]:
So to send people off to do this in real life, to forgive others, to

Pat Millea [00:51:46]:
forgive themselves, again, we can't do it on our own. I can't

Pat Millea [00:51:50]:
do the process of forgiveness without God's grace. So how would

Pat Millea [00:51:54]:
we start to send people off, father, with a challenge by choice,

Pat Millea [00:51:58]:
to to live this life of forgiveness?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:01]:
So I'm I'm gonna borrow from a book. Okay? You have to put in the

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:04]:
show notes, but it's doctor Fred Luskin's book, "Forgive

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:08]:
For Good". And he gives 2 images to actually do this. And I really

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:11]:
I pray with images a lot, so I'm gonna be a little partial to this.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:14]:
But he says, imagine you're an air traffic controller, And there's all

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:18]:
of these planes in the sky, and it's your job to bring the

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:22]:
planes down onto the tarmac and then into the, hangars.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:25]:
And He said, now each one of those planes is an area of unforgiveness.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:29]:
And he's like, this is how it works in our mind as we have all

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:32]:
of these areas of unforgiveness, and it's cluttering the skies. So we

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:36]:
can't see clearly. We can't perceive clearly. We feel really, like, scared almost, like, like,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:40]:
the sky is falling. And so just to start to land some of the planes.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:43]:
It doesn't mean resolve the issues or does he mean to forgive? It just says

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:47]:
just just to land it. Because then when the skies are

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:50]:
clear, we're able to decide which ones do we really wanna triage

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:54]:
first. And so that's, I think, one of the the challenge by choices is just

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:57]:
to kind of see how many planes are up in your sky. See

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:01]:
if you're just willing to land a couple just to kinda prioritize to say, okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:04]:
Here's what I really wanna work with so we don't get discouraged or confused.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:09]:
Again, another image he uses a is a cluttered room.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:13]:
Often when we go into a room that's a mess, we're just

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:16]:
overwhelmed. But if we're just able to say like, okay. You know what? I'm just

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:20]:
gonna pick up the junk that's on the floor And just, like, put it in

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:23]:
a bag and then move it out of the room. Sometimes it just allows us

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:27]:
to kind of breathe a little bit lighter and then triage to see. So, like,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:30]:
what is the next best thing that I can do. So

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:34]:
where is the area of unforgiveness that's drawing my attention the most?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:38]:
I'm gonna look at it, and I'm just gonna kind of acknowledge it And say,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:41]:
okay. Am I ready to actually let go of it? So those would be kind

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:44]:
of, like, the 2 practicals for challenge by choice. Do you wanna add anything onto

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:48]:
it?

Kenna Millea [00:53:07]:
No.

Kenna Millea [00:53:48]:
That sounds great. I'm I I was already starting the activity.

Pat Millea [00:53:53]:
That was the look on your face.

Pat Millea [00:53:57]:
Looking at the planes.

Kenna Millea [00:53:58]:
I was doing the clutter, Actually, good. I have more experience with

Kenna Millea [00:54:02]:
messy rooms than anything.

Pat Millea [00:54:03]:
Right? Yeah. Our boys' room, that's what I was thinking of. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:54:07]:
I think the basement, actually.

Pat Millea [00:54:08]:
That's really Well, Father, would you, pray

Pat Millea [00:54:12]:
for us and help us to start this process of, supernatural forgiveness?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:54:15]:
I I will. And since we actually We're talking a lot about 12 steps. I'm

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:54:19]:
gonna use the the serenity prayer. Fitting

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:54:22]:
for forgiveness. Yeah. So in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:54:26]:
Spirit. God, grant me the serenity to

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:54:30]:
accept the things I cannot change, the courage to

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:54:34]:
change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:54:37]:
We ask all this through Christ our Lord. Amen.

Pat Millea [00:54:41]:
Amen. Amen.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:54:41]:
Father, Son, and the Holy spirit. Amen.

Pat Millea [00:54:44]:
Amen.

Kenna Millea [00:54:44]:
Oh, thank you so much, Father. Thank you so much, Pat.

Kenna Millea [00:54:47]:
A conversation that I know we've all been waiting to be able to have on

Kenna Millea [00:54:51]:
the pod, and so I'm grateful to to be here and to share

Kenna Millea [00:54:55]:
this, especially in this season of new life, just feels

Kenna Millea [00:54:58]:
so fitting. So thank you to you, our dear listeners,

Kenna Millea [00:55:02]:
for being with us for another episode of This Whole Life.

Kenna Millea [00:55:05]:
Please let us know how is this impacting you. You

Kenna Millea [00:55:09]:
can connect with us on social media things,

Kenna Millea [00:55:12]:
@thiswholelifepodcast, send us a message through

Kenna Millea [00:55:16]:
our website thiswholelifepodcast.com. We

Kenna Millea [00:55:20]:
wanna know what you're thinking, what subjects, what topics

Kenna Millea [00:55:23]:
you want us to tackle. And, we know you love Father Nathan, so tell

Kenna Millea [00:55:27]:
us what what tough things have you got for him, in particular. Until

Kenna Millea [00:55:31]:
next time. God bless you, and have a beautiful Christmas. This

Kenna Millea [00:55:40]:
Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For Integration. Visit

Kenna Millea [00:55:44]:
us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Kenna Millea [00:56:00]:
Realize that f is a really hard word to I really like that.

Pat Millea [00:56:04]:
The f giving us Why

Kenna Millea [00:56:05]:
is f giving?

Pat Millea [00:56:06]:
Why is f giving hard

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:56:07]:
or not?

Pat Millea [00:56:08]:
I give no f's