Ep39 OCD & Scrupulosity w/ Dr. Katherine Posch

"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."
~ 2 Corinthians 3:17

How often do we hear that someone is "obsessed" with a new show or that they keep a clean home because they're "a little OCD"? The reality is that the burden of OCD weighs heavily on millions of people who suffer with this disorder, and on those who love them. How can we understand OCD and its effects on faith? And, even more importantly, how can we support those who are working on healing from OCD - or seek help and support ourselves?

In Episode 39 of "This Whole Life," Kenna welcomes Dr. Katherine Posch, a licensed clinical psychologist specializing in Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and anxiety disorders. They tackle the complexities of OCD and its terrible cycle. Dr. Posch emphasizes evidence-based treatments, including Exposure and Response Prevention therapy, and offers a hope-filled way forward for those struggling with religious OCD or scrupulosity. Through personal experiences and professional expertise, the episode offers hope, understanding, and practical guidance for those impacted by OCD - and for all of us who can be stuck in a place of fear and anxiety. Freedom is real and possible!

Katherine Posch, Psy.D., LP is a licensed clinical psychologist at  Renew Behavioral Health in Minneapolis, Minnesota. She is a graduate of the University of Texas at Austin and earned her Doctor of Psychology in Clinical Psychology from Baylor University. She completed a clinical internship at George E. Wahlen Veterans Hospital in Salt Lake City, Utah and a Postdoctoral Fellowship in PCBH/Health Psychology at Hennepin Healthcare Medical Center in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Find out more about Katherine's work at renewbehavioralmn.com.

Episode 39 Show Notes

The International OCD Foundation & their provider directory

Chapters:
0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
15:17: What is OCD?
26:15: Treating OCD & discovering hope
39:19: Approaching OCD related to faith & religious practice
47:51: Supporting a loved one struggling with OCD
53:45: Challenge By Choice

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

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Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 15:17 What is OCD?
• 26:15 Treating OCD & discovering hope
• 39:19 Approaching OCD related to faith & religious practice
• 47:51 Supporting a loved one struggling with OCD
• 53:45 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Pat Millea [00:00:00]:
Hello, friends, and welcome back to This Whole Life. It is such a blessing to be here with you, and we're so excited for you to be here with us for this great conversation with Doctor Katherine Posch. Recently Kenna had a chance to sit down with Dr. Posch who is a licensed clinical psychologist in private practice in Minnesota with Renew Behavioral Health. Doctor Posch originally graduated from college at the University of Texas at Austin with a degree in psychology and went on to receive her doctorate in psychology in clinical psychology from Baylor University. She has a number of areas of expertise, including anxiety disorders and depression. But in particular, for our conversation here today, one of her great areas of expertise is obsessive compulsive disorder. She is gonna have a great conversation with Kenna to share with you about OCD, the ways that it presents in her clients and in individuals, and especially the hope that is offered through really great evidence based treatments and medication. And they're also gonna get into the ways that OCD touches on religious faith at times in a presentation like scrupulosity.

Pat Millea [00:01:07]:
We're so excited for you to hear from Dr. Posch, and you can find out more about her work at renewbehavioralmn.com. And now here's Kenna and Dr. Katherine Posch.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:01:20]:
I've just seen people get their life back in so many ways and just from my worldview, really get to live the life that God created them for and wants them to live.

Kenna Millea [00:01:30]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast along with my husband, Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader. We invite you to our kitchen table. Okay. Not literally, But you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes. We're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes. It's not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care. So let's get talking about This Whole Life. Welcome back to This Whole Life.

Kenna Millea [00:02:29]:
It is so good to be with you listeners. Thank you so much for, coming in for another episode, another valuable Integration, I have with me today, Dr. Katherine Posch. Katherine, welcome.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:02:42]:
Thanks so much for having me. So glad to be here.

Kenna Millea [00:02:47]:
Katherine, you and I have, have been connected through a mutual friend lately, And you spent some time with our Martin Center clinical team earlier this week even. So I'm just feeling really spoiled right now. Getting to just sit, at your feet and receive the wisdom that you've got for us, and for our listeners. You guys, this is gonna be an awesome conversation, there was so much already, off of the, yeah, the pre-interview discussion that I'm like, oh my gosh. We just need to get going in recording. So I'm excited to talk today about OCD and specifically, Katherine, the insight you have for us around, religious scrupulosity. And the ways that we can be living a more free and full life.

Kenna Millea [00:03:32]:
But before we get there, I'm getting ahead of myself as always. But I wanna check-in with you. We have this tradition on the pod of asking our guests to share their high and hard. So would you be willing to tell us a bit about life lately for you?

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:03:49]:
Absolutely. So I guess I'll start with high. Yeah. High. I feel so Minnesotan talking about the weather, but just this weather recently, the sunshine, the warmer temps, especially after the cold, Dreary days that we were having have made such a difference in my mood. And I'm sure you can relate, but it just surprises me every time it's that way.

Kenna Millea [00:04:11]:
Yeah. How many years have you been here in Minnesota now?

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:04:14]:
I've been here since 2020. So not too too many years.

Kenna Millea [00:04:18]:
Was it Texas primarily all before that?

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:04:21]:
Texas and then Salt Lake for a year. So Texas my whole life.

Kenna Millea [00:04:25]:
Okay.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:04:25]:
Salt Lake for a year, And then, yeah, moved to Minnesota.

Kenna Millea [00:04:28]:
So we're 2 Minnesota transplants. Yeah. Yeah. Florida, Texas. We're here for it.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:04:35]:
There's some differences for sure. Right? Yeah. From the north and the south, but it's yeah. Yeah. It's it's good to be here.

Kenna Millea [00:04:42]:
Good. I'm glad I'm glad November is treating you well.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:04:44]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:04:45]:
And maybe a hard lately.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:04:47]:
Yeah. So to be honest, I I have a newborn son, and hard has just been the whole sleep thing. I'm sure any new parent can relate. Just You don't really realize how much of a need sleep is until you have the baby. So and just navigating all of that and The whole sleep training thing and what to do or what not to do. There's just so much for. And, Yeah. I would say that's my that's my hard of this week is just lots of, sleepless nights, but it's all okay.

Kenna Millea [00:05:21]:
Well and what I remember, you know, we're a few years removed now from the newborn stage, but there's still I don't know if anyone told you yet, but there's still some sleep stuff to come in the years ahead. But, but I remember it's just like the multitude of voices. Yes. To have opinions. Right? And and sometimes we seek those out, all the Google searching I did at, like, 3 o'clock in the morning. Like, what is the matter with my child? Or, like, how to fix this? And then the books, but just, you know, the empirical wisdom that people want to offer because they don't like to see us suffering, or They found the magic bullet that, like, works for their kid, and they wanna share it, but it's just it's a lot to sift through.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:05:59]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Especially as someone who just wants to do I'm I'm someone who wants to do the right thing.

Kenna Millea [00:06:05]:
Yeah.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:06:05]:
And I feel like everyone's saying that this is the right thing to do, but it's completely different, so it's hard to navigate. Or, you know, do what's best for you and your family, but it's like, I don't really know what that is yet. So

Kenna Millea [00:06:16]:
Right.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:06:16]:
A lot of trial and error, and and, yeah, definitely relate to what you just shared.

Kenna Millea [00:06:20]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that, and I can I can certainly Relate, yeah, to sleep? We've talked about that a lot here on the pod, actually. We should actually probably do an episode on sleep. Right? Although, again, there's just so many opinions. Right? Like, It could be fine just 1 person, to speak on that. So, you know, I would say my hard lately, has been just a a new wave of grief, that's coming, with just, You know, some deaths in our family over these, you know, recent years, and and, I don't know. I think maybe within that hard, This expectation that a different year another year will make things easier.

Kenna Millea [00:07:04]:
And certainly, for sure, right, there's Maybe a little less rawness. And, also, I think I'm taken aback sometimes by how fresh it can all Feel. And so thankfully, have enlisted the help of a new therapist. My, the therapist I'd been seeing through a lot of the grief had to take a leave of absence, but have been connected with someone. So so the hard is just that starting up again And being honest about, yeah, another season, what feels like another trip around the spiral staircase of grief, And just the energy that I'm aware that that takes and and how I need life to slow down a little bit so that I can Process that and and be attentive to it in a healthy way in a healthier way. So that's definitely a hard. I would say the high is that, both, I would say, in my office with clients and also with my Children and with people I love in my personal life, just seeing some change and some growth for some folks Mhmm. That is just It's so beautiful to sit back and watch.

Kenna Millea [00:08:16]:
And I and I say sit back on purpose because, if you if you listen to podcast ever, you know that my tendency is to over function, and my tendency is to try to be in control. Mhmm. And so really, lately witnessing the fruits of times when I haven't and when I see our kids sort something out for I see, a child kind of come to a new A new level of skill in a particular area that I've had my eye on, but I've tried to keep my mouth, you know, shut or, or certainly with clients, like them having these insight and these breakthroughs. I wanna believe it's, you know, because of my compliment with them, But I also know, like, it's just God, like, moving in their life and in their world. And so it's, such a privileged place To be. And I imagine, Katherine, you can relate to that as a clinician too, but, people say that, man, it must be such a hard job To be a therapist, and I'm like, oh, it's so rewarding.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:09:16]:
It is. Yeah. It is hard to say it with people when they're in pain or suffering, but to get to To it's such a privilege to be able to be with people and then to get to see the healing that's on the other side of that. It is so incredibly rewarding. Yeah. And I relate to what you just shared. Like, there are many times where a client will refer to something that I Said not even really thinking about it. Right? And that was something that really made a difference for them or or many moments where I'm like, I just kinda need to get out of the way.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:09:47]:
I'm like, this person Use use this time and space and, in the way that they need to versus kind of how I feel like what I'm thinking or planning for, it's such a, it's like it's humbling in a way. Right?

Kenna Millea [00:10:03]:
Very much so. Very, very much so. Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of me lately. So, maybe, actually, Katherine, this is a A good moment of transition to just let you share a bit about how you got into this work. And and, you know, there's So many things in the world of psychology and psychotherapy that that we could do and focus on. And you have really found this passion, for working with people suffering,

Kenna Millea [00:10:33]:
and I use that word intentionally, suffering with OCD. And so Mhmm. Yeah. What drew you to it, and, what makes it so meaningful for you?

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:10:41]:
When I was in, my graduate training program, I had an opportunity to work in a anxiety disorders research lab. So I had I had, the opportunity to have a lot of, experience with people that were dealing with a wide variety of of anxiety disorders and issues related to anxiety, be like social anxiety or or fears of things. And so, within that, I had some experience working with, people that were struggling with OCD, but but not a lot. It was actually, not until, I got around the time I got licensed that I, decided to do a deeper dive into training and Really, I just have fallen in love with the work. It's it's and and I love it for a couple of reasons. The first is I I really enjoy working with the people that I get to work with. I don't know why, but I have noticed that, OCD tends to afflict some of the most Kind, caring, conscientious, gentle hearted, awesome people. And that's not to say that my other clients don't have those qualities or don't have wonderful qualities as well.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:11:58]:
It's just, I don't know if you've if you've noticed that Yeah. thattern, but it's just

Kenna Millea [00:12:05]:
It's almost out of such a deep care and desire to be good and to be good to others Right. That the disorder Yes. Like, develops. Right.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:12:13]:
Yeah. Yeah. And and causes so much suffering for people. And another another, reason why I love working with OCD is that it's never, it's never the same. Mhmm. It looks so different. I could have meet with, you know, 10 clients with the same, subtype of OCD or presentation of OCD, and it would look totally different. So it requires a lot of creativity and thinking and, and collaboration with the client to really get them on the right track for their treatment.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:12:48]:
And I and I enjoy that. And then, I think the last reason that comes to mind for why I enjoy it so much is that We have treatments that work really, really well, and I think there people don't know that. So the evidence based treatments that we have are effective and, so helpful for people. And getting to see people's lives open up again after, struggling, usually suffering in silence for many, many years Yeah. Is is it's just a gift to Be a to be able to be a part of that.

Kenna Millea [00:13:27]:
Yeah. You get to be this beacon of hope maybe in their life when they've maybe lost Hope and given up that they can be any different.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:13:36]:
Yeah. Like, I yeah. I really appreciate the the hope that the treatment offers. It's a lot of Work on the the part of the client. It's inspiring to me, the courage and bravery that it requires and that it takes for somebody to Make that leap of faith and work on on approaching these difficulties in a totally different way that feels really scary at first. And, It's inspiring to me because I just think that, you know, we are we're wired to avoid Things that are scary

Kenna Millea [00:14:10]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:14:11]:
Things that are painful, and that is actually a really good thing. Right?

Kenna Millea [00:14:16]:
Survival.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:14:16]:
Yes. Yes. Yes. People that don't have that don't you know, it's an issue. Right? Mhmm. So, you're kind of having to go Learn the value of sometimes going against that wiring, that natural that instinct that we have, right, to Avoid pain. Avoid things that are difficult. Avoid suffering, which is not again, hear me say, it's not a bad thing across the board.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:14:44]:
It's just that when we begin to operate out of a place of fear and anxiety, It it can become so costly.

Kenna Millea [00:14:53]:
Well and I think about that not just for people diagnosed with clinical OCD Mhmm. But for all of us. I mean Mhmm. That that place of fear, it makes I think about I often use where the term with my clients, like, I don't want your world to be so small. Mhmm. You know, I don't want You to have to be cowering in a corner Mhmm. Without a lot of options. Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:15:15]:
I mean, we weren't made for that. Mhmm. So I guess as we're we're getting into this, Katherine, I wonder If you could just help us understand what is OCD. I mean, particularly in social media and, you know, it's just it's Thrown out there. And what are we actually talking about when we speak of it in this clinical context?

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:15:33]:
Yes. I love that you just phrased the question in that way because I actually wanna start off by saying what OCD is not. Right? And it's referring to exactly what you just said. So there's this A phrase I feel like that gets thrown around in social media or elsewhere, like, that's so OCD or I'm so OCD. And it's it's a tongue in cheek thing. I know people don't mean any harm by it, but, It's problematic for a couple of reasons. It I think that it sends this message that what OCD is is, You know, being especially neat or clean or avoiding germs, washing your hands a lot, Those those features can be present in some OCD, presentations or cases, but, I would say that the vast majority of clients that I work with don't have any of the don't don't do any of those things. Yeah.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:16:33]:
And it's a problem because, it leads to a lot of a misconception about what OCD is. And so people that Have the the condition, don't even know that they have it.

Kenna Millea [00:16:44]:
Yes. I I find that as well. They are shocked that this is what this is. Yep. Because it doesn't look like hand washing

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:16:50]:
Exactly.

Kenna Millea [00:16:51]:
Or doorknob turning, or.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:16:52]:
Exactly. And then I think that the the last reason for another reason why I'm I'm not crazy about it is it implies choice. Like, somebody is, like, choosing to order or do these things, or or like they like to.

Kenna Millea [00:17:09]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:17:10]:
And, people don't choose to have OCD. Yeah. And when somebody is in the throes of the disorder, and it's untreated, they really don't feel like they have a choice And doing behaviors Yeah. Which I can get into. But, so that's why OCD is not. So So then what is OCD? Right? So OCD is a mental health condition, that affects about 1 to 2% of the US population, which sounds small, but that's 2 to 3 million people. It's a lot. Yeah.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:17:47]:
It's a lot of people. Wow.

Kenna Millea [00:17:48]:
I did not think of it in those terms. Yeah.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:17:51]:
Yeah. And I say that because the condition, can make somebody feel like they are the only one and they are so alone, and they're not. Yeah. And it's characterized by two main symptoms, Obsessions and compulsions. So the the O and the C of OCD. Obsessions are, unwanted, Intrusive. Usually, thoughts for images that come into a person's mind. And these are thoughts and images that are really against typically, very against the person's values since their self.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:18:28]:
They're they can be really distressing, very Disturbing, shocking in nature.

Kenna Millea [00:18:33]:
Which is why it's upsetting. Right? Because it's not consistent with who they want to be, who they see themselves to be.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:18:40]:
Exactly.

Kenna Millea [00:18:41]:
It goes so counter to to who they feel called to be.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:18:44]:
Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Which is why I I almost don't like The term obsession because to describe it. Because when we talk about obsession in everyday terms, It's like I can't get enough of it. Right?

Kenna Millea [00:18:58]:
I I obsessed with the new pumpkin spice latte.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:19:00]:
Yes. Yes. Right. I, yeah, I ordered it 4 times. Yes. And it's like that could not be farther from the truth for somebody with OCD experiencing obsessions. They're they're popping into their awareness with, the it feels totally out of their control. It's really disturbing, very upsetting.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:19:18]:
And, in order because of that reaction, the person feels compelled to engage in what are called compulsions. So these are just behaviors or even mental behaviors, that somebody does To, get rid of or sort of, like, cancel out.

Kenna Millea [00:19:40]:
Like, get relief

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:19:41]:
Yes. Get relief from, that unwanted thought or image that just popped into their mind. Okay. So Behaviors, common behaviors, are could be, you know, checking or asking for reassurance or, confessing or, as in, like, telling telling somebody else about about the thought. It could be, repeating things, or it can be things that somebody does in their mind. So Praying or even even counting to a certain number or, replacing an image with a different image. It looks a lot of different ways. It's just this I think what what's most important in the in explaining it is it's The obsession is occurring, the intrusion, the unwanted thought image is coming in.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:20:35]:
It's causing a spike in anxiety, and so the person Feels like they have to do something about it to get rid of it.

Kenna Millea [00:20:41]:
Like, let's push this away.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:20:42]:
Exactly. And it leads to A temporary relief, but inevitably, the intrusive thought and or image comes back and usually even stronger and usually and oftentimes, More for upsetting, more disturbing, and so the person engages in more behaviors. So the behaviors become repetitive and, And oftentimes more elaborate, and it can it can become very time consuming

Kenna Millea [00:21:09]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:21:10]:
And, really take away Somebody's mental energy, and and become very impairing and interfering in their their life.

Kenna Millea [00:21:23]:
Well and I'm thinking about yeah. And I'm thinking about, you know, having having been with Clients whose loved one Mhmm. Has OCD Mhmm. And the mounting frustration because of how much more elaborate Their their compulsions become, and they're like, it's taking over my life. And Mhmm. And I think, especially, you know, Katherine, as you're helping us understand This this intrusion Mhmm. It says in it's as I I do not will it any more than I will a robber to walk through my front door and and steal my Silver. You know, like Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:21:57]:
So so it's hard for the loved one because it looks like you have choice. You make choices all day long, And somehow you continue to choose, and we are late all the time to all these things. And, yeah, that frustration.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:22:09]:
Yeah. And I think another I'm so glad that you said that and brought that up. I think another thing that really can be confusing or frustrating for a loved one is the fact that that OCD doesn't respond to logic for reason. So, and if it the the clients that I work with that have OCD are very bright. Yes. Like, it's not a problem of of understanding or standing or not having the right information or education. It's a mental health condition.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:22:43]:
And so I think people can say, well, that's unreasonable Mhmm. Right, that you're needing to do that over and over again. You already did it, Or that's not a reasonable way to to respond. Right? Yeah. And it's that it's like it's that when you have OCD, it doesn't Feel like you have a choice. And you know it doesn't make sense, but you don't feel like it's it's very frightening to think about not doing the compulsions. So for the sake of example, I'll share, a common one that comes up with, a subtype of OCD, responsibility OCD. So, let's say that you're cooking in the kitchen and you need to go pick your kids up from soccer practice And you leave the house, and you have the thought, did I turn the stove off? Right? And you know in your mind that that you turned the stove off, but it causes this spike in anxiety.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:23:44]:
Right? And you can maybe walk through the through the steps in your mind and and and get reassurance, like, yeah. I did do that. Right? Well, in the mind of someone with OCD, they have that thought, did I turn the stove off? What if I left it on? Right? And there's that spike in anxiety, and they might engage in a checking behavior. So they might go back To check that the stove is off. Right? They might get back in their car and keep driving, but then the thought comes again, did I really turn the stove off? What if I bumped one of the knobs? Mhmm. I didn't realize it. Can I really be sure? Did I really reviewing in mind, did I really see the stove off. Am I absolutely sure? And the anxiety builds and builds and builds, and they go back and they check again.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:24:29]:
And then they leave and they have another thought with a that is associated with a lot of anxiety and distress where they engage in another behavior. And you can see It's a very simple simple simplified version of of what can happen, but you can see how time consuming this can become for somebody. Mhmm. Absolutely. Yeah. And I don't wanna yeah. Again, this comes in so many different For that I'm I'm just trying to illustrate kind of like that that process of never being able to really get certainty around something and just the that agonizing cycle of Having to do things over and over again prompted by these really distressing, unwanted thoughts or images. That lack of peace.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:25:12]:
that lack of peace. Yeah. Mhmm. And just the spiral that that people get caught in.

Kenna Millea [00:25:18]:
I mean, I guess, first of all, you talk about the cycle and how it intensifies and it it, seems to grow. Mhmm. The, you know, compulsions being more elaborate, the Fear, the the obsession, the intrusive thought, and the distress that it causes, that gets bigger. Mhmm. Feels more costly to them. And I remember when you were with our clinical team, you named it as this vicious cycle. Mhmm. And, talking about kind of OCD is this, like, self propelled machine Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:25:50]:
That could go on into perpetuity if he let it. Mhmm. And so Yeah. I just I'm I'm thinking about how, how much clients that I have walked with with this disorder, how much they want out. Mhmm. So when you talk about, like, it's not a lack of reason, it's like they they also know Mhmm. That this is This isn't the way that they want to live. Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:26:15]:
So I'm I'm wondering about you mentioned earlier that there is hope. Right? That there is, particularly through some of these evidence based treatments that you use. Mhmm. And so I'm wondering if you can describe a little bit about what you have found is helpful Mhmm. And why you think it is. Like like, this this unreasonable, you know, machine that is OCD. Like, why does it respond to these Best practices that you have come upon in your work and in your research?

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:26:45]:
Mhmm. So the, The best evidence based treatment that we have for OCD, the frontline treatment for OCD, is a form of cognitive behavioral therapy called exposure and response prevention. And it's really important that someone receives exposure and response prevention and not just general CBT because Exposure and response prevention is specifically developed for OCD.

Kenna Millea [00:27:12]:
So exposure and response prevention Therapy Mhmm. Or ERP. Yes. That's under this big umbrella of CBT, of cognitive behavioral therapy

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:27:23]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:27:24]:
Which most of us I have heard about and, again, it's just so out there in the in the culture and in the media.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:27:29]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:27:30]:
So it's a piece within that, but you're saying that ERP specifically has been developed to get at the unique kind of traits Mhmm. And this, yeah, this ongoing vicious cycle that is OCD.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:27:42]:
Yes. And to illustrate how it works. Yeah. Well,

Kenna Millea [00:27:48]:
I'm wondering in in particular, could you, You know, because I I I know in our clinic, we see a lot of OCDs particularly related to religious scrupulosity. Mhmm. And it's just so Tricky because there are these very, beautiful acts of faith. Right? These rituals Mhmm. That we as Catholics, we as Christians participate in, and then they somehow get distorted or or or askew. Mhmm. And so that feels yeah. It's just this kind of ball of knots.

Kenna Millea [00:28:22]:
So, like, how do we untangle this without inadvertently discouraging someone from objectively beautiful religious practice. So maybe if you could illustrate with us with that. I'm throwing a real curve ball at you.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:28:35]:
Yes. No. I I, I'm happy to do that. So, Okay. So I think I'm gonna start with, an experiential exercise if you're open to it. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:28:46]:
Let's do it.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:28:48]:
To illustrate how OCD works and then how the treatment works, and then I'll I'll go into how do we apply this to scrupulosity or religious, forms of OCD.

Kenna Millea [00:28:57]:
Beautiful. Sound good? Yeah. Okay. More than I hoped for.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:29:01]:
This is, like, long winded. And, Anyways, it's kind of how I roll, but that's okay. Okay. So I want you to bring to mind the image of a pink elephant.

Kenna Millea [00:29:12]:
K. Got it? Got it.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:29:14]:
Okay. And, can you tell me a little bit about the elephant that that came to your mind, like, is it a cartoon?

Kenna Millea [00:29:22]:
It's a cartoon. Mhmm. It has tusks Uh-huh. And it has a little bit of hair. I'm realizing it might Be a wolly mammoth, actually. But can it count as my pink elephant? It's very pink.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:29:34]:
This is your elephant.

Kenna Millea [00:29:35]:
It is, bordering on magenta. Uh-huh. And, yeah, it's outlined in black like a cartoon.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:29:40]:
Okay. Okay. So have that image in your mind. Right? And now what I want you to do is I want you to push that image out of your mind.

Kenna Millea [00:29:51]:
Okay.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:29:51]:
Okay? And you can think about anything else, Any other but just don't don't allow that to come back to your mind or any thoughts related to it. Okay. And and if you notice it, then really get rid of it quick because it could mean something about you for it can mean something about your future for things can go really, really bad if you let it. Just trust me. Just make sure that it doesn't come into your awareness, your consciousness. Think of anything else. Okay? K. And I want you to do whatever you have to do to get rid of it.

Kenna Millea [00:30:24]:
K. Working really hard over here. I think that's the point, but I just wanted you to know.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:30:30]:
What what do you notice, as you try to do that?

Kenna Millea [00:30:34]:
Yeah. Well, at first, I was like, oh, I'll focus on My imaginary garden that I would love to plant someday. And then the more you were talking, I was like, focus harder. Just focus on 1 plant. Mhmm. Just focus on 1 leaf. My gosh. Just don't like anything.

Kenna Millea [00:30:49]:
And, yeah, that elephant just kept creeping. My wolly mammoth just kept creeping back in.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:30:53]:
There There they are again. Yeah. Right? Totally. Yeah. So that's a phenomenon called thought suppression, which is a human experience that happens for all of us. The harder that we try to push away thoughts or images, the Stronger and more frequent. The stronger they come back, the more frequently they come back. Mhmm.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:31:18]:
So let's just, for the sake of example, like, take it back to the that OCD cycle.

Kenna Millea [00:31:25]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:31:26]:
Right? So let's. So the the elephant represents that unwanted thought, and I just had you pull something neutral to mind. Mhmm. Imagine that this was something that felt like it Compromise whatever is most important

Kenna Millea [00:31:39]:
to you in

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:31:39]:
your life. Right? Someone's alarm system goes off, And so then they engage in all these behaviors to get rid of it. Mhmm. And the reasons why vary. Sometimes it's, like, just the presence of it is so unsettling. They wanna get rid of it. Sometimes it's there's fears of if this stays around long enough, maybe something bad will happen, or I could act Act in that way for, you know, or it could just be, I just need certainty around this. I just need this to go go away and be resolved.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:32:10]:
But all that frenzy and all that activity is actually all all those things that a person is doing to feel better Mhmm. And to fix the problem is Actually perpetuating the problem and making it worse and worse.

Kenna Millea [00:32:24]:
And all the things are so natural. Right? Like, to to take our mind off of it To say, no. I don't want that. I mean, it's just so natural, and you're right. Like, the harder I push, the more it intrudes Right. Back to that Term Right. And invades my mind. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:32:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:32:42]:
Yeah. So exposure and response prevention, what it does is it helps people To actually approach those, those intrusive, unwanted thoughts or images, And allow the anxiety to go up, to to rise without performing any of those behaviors. And what that does is it breaks that cycle. Right? So it's not getting reinforced.

Kenna Millea [00:33:11]:
Mhmm. Because there's kind of four legs to this cycle table. So there's the obsessive thought, that intrusive thought. Yes. Then there's the Stress, the anxiety that shows up. That's number 2. Mhmm. And then there's the compulsive behavior or action or mental action.

Kenna Millea [00:33:29]:
And then there's that temporary relief, and then you swing from that step 4 back up to the top to number 1. And so you're saying take out like 3, That Mhmm. Compulsion Mhmm. And short circuit it, in the hopes that it moves in a new direction.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:33:46]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:33:46]:
Okay.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:33:46]:
And so eventually, people will Feel the anxiety, but over time, that anxiety goes down.

Kenna Millea [00:33:52]:
Okay.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:33:52]:
And so it gives the basically, the brain's alarm system a chance to, Like recalibrate.

Kenna Millea [00:33:59]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:34:00]:
Yeah. And realize, okay. Because all of those behaviors that you're doing to get rid of it or telling the brain, this is important. This matters. This is meaningful. Right?

Kenna Millea [00:34:10]:
So inadvertently reinforcing Mhmm. That message Yeah. Like, on the one hand, I'm like, I don't wanna think about this thing, but then the way I'm reacting is actually telling my brain, my nervous system, The something big is happening here, and we must pay attention. Exactly. Gotta make a big meaning out of this.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:34:28]:
Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. And it's a really it's not intuitive because of that temporary relief that happens when somebody does do the behaviors. That that's saying, oh, this is a good way to deal with this. I I can get rid of it in this way. And they can temporarily, but it never is enough. Mhmm.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:34:46]:
That's Part of it being so torturous is it's it's never quite enough.

Kenna Millea [00:34:52]:
Yeah. I'm also wondering about medication.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:34:54]:
Mhmm. Yeah. I'm I'm glad you asked. So, fortunately, there are medications that work really well, for helping people who are struggling with OCD. So, specifically, high doses of an of a medication called it's called an SSRI, but it's It's a standard medication that's prescribed for all a wide variety of anxiety and, and depressive disorders.

Kenna Millea [00:35:21]:
Okay.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:35:22]:
But the dosage is is different typically in people with OCD. So it's important that you, work with a provider who's aware of that, for educated on that diagnosis. But that I've seen, I've I've seen it Be really, really helpful for people, and and a really useful tool that's often used alongside therapy. So that is something to to absolutely look into as well.

Kenna Millea [00:35:49]:
Yeah. Love that. A one two punch. You know both the the talk therapy, the behavioral change, and also, the medication support Yeah. So that those therapeutic tools can be helpful. Exactly. So far in the hole. Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:36:01]:
It's hard to be able to use what we're learning in therapy.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:36:03]:
Yeah. I've seen it be really, really an important part of treatment in in in some cases for just, yeah, quieting down the the Intrusion's just enough to where somebody's able to really engage in the treatment and lowering that anxiety just a little can make a huge difference. Yeah. So I'm glad you asked.

Kenna Millea [00:36:21]:
So can you kind of of going back to when we were talking about some of the features of OCD, I imagine there are people out here. I remember I remember being in grad school and being in my psychopathology class where we were discussing, you know, the various disorders and Mhmm. Our professor warning us like you're gonna go home every day thinking that you have a different disorder because there are ways in which we can all relate to elements of this. Mhmm. But in particular, I'm thinking about onset, so ages when this is, really maybe going to make its first Appearance for a very strong appearance, as I know we have a lot of parents who listen. Mhmm. And I've got kids. I know what it's like for them to have that particular sock, you know, pair of socks or that 1 blankie or what have you.

Kenna Millea [00:37:07]:
And so our minds, out of love, can go to that place of like, my gosh. Is this what I'm seeing? Mhmm. So just yeah. Maybe share a little bit more about that.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:37:14]:
So, common ages of onset, there's there's 2. The first is in adolescence, so that 8 to 12 range, and then the second that we that we see is in, late Teens early adulthood. That's not to say that OCD can't have an onset at a different time. It can also onset after A major change or stressor. There's a specific form of OCD called perinatal OCD, and that onsets after, sometimes before the birth of a child or after. So, yeah, those are those are common ages of Ages of onset that, the research shows and that I see in my own practice.

Kenna Millea [00:37:57]:
Mhmm. And maybe, actually, while we're discussing this, You know, Katherine, if someone is concerned about themselves or about someone else, who is best to help them Mhmm. In terms of a diagnosis, in terms of sorting out what might be generalized anxiety, what might just be a preference Mhmm. For actual OCD.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:38:18]:
Mhmm. Yeah. So, the best thing to do would be to talk with a trained mental health provider. So somebody who's trained in exposure and response prevention or or experience with treating OCD, and those providers can be found through the IOCDF.org website. That stands for the International OCD Foundation.

Kenna Millea [00:38:38]:
And on

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:38:39]:
that website, there's a directory of therapists.

Kenna Millea [00:38:42]:
Oh, amazing. Yeah.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:38:43]:
In your in in your area, you can search by your ZIP code. And there's also a lot more for, provided there that I wish we could cover completely in this podcast. So,

Kenna Millea [00:38:57]:
and we can link up, that website so that folks listening, who who do want to maybe get some questions answered, Things clarified Yeah. Can speak to someone who is empowered in a place of power to help. Yes. Okay. So that is that is super helpful. I'm, Listeners, I'm happy to be the guinea pig over here to, to illustrate these points. So yes. So taking all of that, Katherine, and Applying it to OCD that shows up around faith and religion.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:39:26]:
Right. Yeah. So, OCD can take the obsessions can can fall into several different themes. They could be things related to To contamination or cleanliness, which I think is where that, so OCD comes from

Kenna Millea [00:39:43]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:39:43]:
Could also be themes that feel more, More, scary or taboo, like violence against self for our family members or others for, themes that are, related to sex or sexuality that are really unwanted and disturbing for the person. That's just to name a few. One theme that shows up is religious or moral OCD. And, So this is when the OCD latches onto, religious content that's important to a person. So, Usually, there's excessive concern around, violating some part of moral doctrine, or committing sin or or blasphemy for, Another common one would be, like, fears around, being possessed or becoming possessed. Mhmm. That's something that I see a lot of. So, the OCD really centers on and fixates on those things, and then the person who's experiencing intrusions related to that, and that spike in anxiety, you know, will can can engage in religious practices Yeah.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:41:05]:
To Find comfort or reassurance. So I guess, you know, to take examples from Catholicism, right, confession or, I mean,

Kenna Millea [00:41:15]:
Going to Mass, saying the rosary. Yes. Prayers. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Just these a lot of outward signs that we can make of an act of faith.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:41:27]:
Yes. Yeah. Which are not are are not problematic in and of themselves. But when it's it's be it's an OCD issue, a mental health issue, and it's not faith or religious religiosity issue, those those, rituals, They never really bring peace. They, you know, someone says someone goes to confession, but it Feels like they just didn't confess quite enough, or somebody prays and they they become concerned that they Maybe you didn't pray in just the right way, or they do all those things and then the intrusion happens again and they feel the need to repeat those things. Over and over and over and over again. And it leads to this cycle of, Guilt and shame and exhaustion, that the person really can't find peace. Yeah.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:42:29]:
Is that illustrating what that might look like for someone?

Kenna Millea [00:42:32]:
I think that that phrase, you know, doesn't bring peace That feels like a hallmark of OCD versus, you know, some people do have, maybe more stringent religious Integration, like Martin communities or, you know, around fasting or around times of prayer. Mhmm. And so I think that that peace, p e a c e peace Mhmm. That seems like the distinguishing factor Between when is this, like, willful and I and I am empowered in my life to make these choices as an act of faith for an act of, atonement or sacrifice. And when is it not a compulsion? Like, when is it not feeling like it's my willful Choice anymore.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:43:17]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:43:18]:
Yeah. That sense of peace seems like a good litmus test. Mhmm.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:43:22]:
Yeah. And something that I wanna just throw Throw out there is that with with the treatment, with the exposure and response prevention, a common concern is, like, well, is the provider going to Ask me to stop practicing my faith, or are they gonna encourage me to do something that's, against my faith and not in line with my faith values? And I just want listeners to know that with a a well trained provider, certainly not. My goal is To get people to be able to practice their faith in a way that a I say I use the the, percentage, 80% of people practice In their faith community. And, it's not that, that, you know, I would encourage someone if if Confession or prayer or things like that are an important part of their life. I wouldn't ask somebody to, Stop doing those things. Right? But I would encourage I would work with them to tease apart. Okay. What part of this is OCD, and what part of this practicing your faith and for and and discontinuing the the part where OCD is getting caught and practicing those Those, important religious rituals in a way that is healthy and life giving and not feeding the, The disorder if Yeah.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:44:47]:
If they do have OCD.

Kenna Millea [00:44:49]:
Yeah. Which sounds really tricky.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:44:51]:
It is.

Kenna Millea [00:44:51]:
I mean it sounds like really difficult work.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:44:55]:
Yes. It is. And I think it's part of that collaborative process that I enjoy so much. Like, you're working hand in hand with the therapist To plan this out and decide what feels comfortable, oftentimes, religious, mentors or leaders are pulled in. And, and so it's a very thoughtful, intentional process that that we that you go out at a very gradual In a gradual way

Kenna Millea [00:45:25]:
Yeah.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:45:25]:
With with confronting these fears. I wanna make sure I put that out there too.

Kenna Millea [00:45:30]:
Yeah. No. I also remember you talking about that with our team this week about you know, talking about hierarchy. Mhmm. And so starting with those less distressing Exposures Mhmm. that that's part of the protocol of the treatment that we're not gonna go for the jugular No. At the beginning. I just I know people who have feared, engaging in ERP

Kenna Millea [00:45:52]:
therapy because they're like, they're gonna right away, they're gonna throw the biggest, you know, challenge at me, and And so it was really reassuring to hear you say that of, like, no. No. No. We want to I I think of it as, like, stretch that window of tolerance Yeah. Without overwhelming you so much, we throw you out of it.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:46:10]:
Yes. Yeah. I always say, my goal is to challenge you, not to overwhelm you.

Kenna Millea [00:46:16]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:46:17]:
Yeah. And we decide what what's gonna feel challenging. And, ultimately, it's important to address, you know, all parts of what's The the all the components of OCD that are that are assessed for and decided on by with, you know, by meeting with the provider. But, Yeah. It's that their it's at your own pace, and, and it's really, really effective. It's really, really effective. I've just seen people Get their life back in so many ways. And, I and and just from my role view, really get to live, the life that God God wants them to created them for, wants them to live.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:46:58]:
So

Kenna Millea [00:46:59]:
Absolutely. Oh, I love that. So okay. So we've I I I'm hopeful listeners that that you are feeling filled with hope if this message has pertained to you. And And maybe you are recognizing that there's, maybe you already have a formal diagnosis for or have wondered, and maybe are living in in silence, in the shadows, In suffering. So I'm I'm hopeful that what you're hearing from Katherine is giving you, a new sense of yeah. Reason to hope. I also, Katherine, want to speak to those who may be listening, who are loved ones of Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:47:36]:
Someone suffering with OCD. Again, whether it's formally diagnosed and that person is maybe seeking treatment for they suspect. Right? And and they're feeling the Intrusion themselves of OCD in that relationship or in the family life. And and I wonder if you can say a bit about How could people like that be supportive Mhmm. Of loved ones? And something that you said, in our training earlier this week that really struck Me is how often we as clinicians, and I imagine folks as family members and friends could unknowingly be, perpetuating or or contributing to the vicious cycle. Mhmm. Can you talk to us about those?

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:48:15]:
Absolutely. Yeah. So, I think that the the best place to start if you're, a loved one of someone that has OCD or Or that you think may have OCD is to get educated yourself. Mhmm. I think, It can be confusing to loved ones why someone is struggling in the way that they're struggling.

Kenna Millea [00:48:39]:
Because that's not how your brain operates. You really just can't imagine Right. How that goes.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:48:44]:
Right. It's not it doesn't it's not responding to, like, logic or reason or other ways that you would help for help Solve things. Right? And so I think getting educated on on OCD and and that that IOCDF, The that website is a great place to start. They have a lot of resources for people. I think also, Kenna, you just touched on this, but oftentimes, families, loved ones can get pulled into a person's compulsions whether, you know, commonly, I I hear people Asking for reassurance from loved ones for,

Kenna Millea [00:49:28]:
So that's like, did you know, we're driving away to church, And a husband turns to his wife and says, did you did you turn off the coffee that, or or did I turn off the coffee pot?

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:49:40]:
And Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:49:40]:
That kind of reassurance speaking.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:49:42]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:49:43]:
Okay.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:49:43]:
Yeah. That that's repetitive and doesn't respond to I'm like, I probably have said that to my spouse many times.

Kenna Millea [00:49:49]:
But it's repetitive. I don't have peace. I don't actually believe that even when my wife

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:49:51]:
It's like I can't even trust my senses anymore. Mhmm. Right? Yeah. So So, you know, being mindful of that for, you know, oftentimes people with with OCD that are in the process that when it's untreated or it's in the process of being treated, we'll want to avoid, triggers Things that could trigger the intrusions, and so really encouraging their loved ones to approach rather than avoid things

Kenna Millea [00:50:22]:
Okay.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:50:23]:
In a in a way that is gentle. Yeah. And I think that this is where a treatment provider is really, really helpful. Mhmm. I I think it's important that families and loved ones are involved in treatment, especially if they're And getting, pulled into compulsions because it can be really, really hard, you know, if you see your loved one suffering to not wanna just give them what they're asking for. So to meet with the provider and and be in agreement on, okay, we know that these things, While they make you feel better in the moment are unhelpful in perpetuating this, so this is the way that your, loved one is going to respond when they ask you for reassurance or, you know,

Kenna Millea [00:51:10]:
So really letting the provider kind of mediate those choices and Determine, like, what what would be the next appropriate step

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:51:18]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:51:19]:
And how can your loved one be supportive of that Yeah. And not inadvertently maybe reinforcing this.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:51:26]:
Yeah. You can always validate the distress. This is so hard, and I'm so proud of you for Working on this, it's so difficult for me to not do this, but I but we we know that this isn't what's gonna be ultimately helpful. So Mhmm. Is there something else we can do?

Kenna Millea [00:51:40]:
So if I'm not going to like, I answered you once about the coffee pot Yeah. And I'm not gonna answer again. I'm not gonna reassure you again. Mhmm. But I can still empathize with, like, I can see this is hard. I can see you're working hard at this. Mhmm. It's hard for me to not, Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:51:57]:
Give you the reassurance that you're looking for.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:51:59]:
You can do this. Yeah. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:52:00]:
Yeah. Which is a fine line.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:52:03]:
Oh, it is.

Kenna Millea [00:52:03]:
And I can't imagine.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:52:04]:
Oh my gosh. And so easier it's so much easier said than done. And, yeah, I don't I I don't want to simplify it or, You know, minimize how challenging that can be. Yeah. So, you know, with that With that in mind, something a couple of other things that are that I think can be helpful for loved ones is there's there's actually quite a few, support groups for, loved ones that have or or people that have a loved one with OCD, and I think that, those can be really helpful For people?

Kenna Millea [00:52:42]:
Would that also be through the IOCDF website so we can link that?

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:52:46]:
That's where I would start, Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:52:46]:
Yeah. For on a support group. Yeah. So as we're kind of rounding the bend here, Katherine, to the end of this episode, I some things that are standing out to me, are that have been really helpful and have maybe, yeah, helped to dismantle the the ideas I had of of OCD in my mind, Is this idea of it it's unwanted. Mhmm. And that helps me to grow in great empathy for people who struggle with this. Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:53:18]:
And, I don't know. Just I I know for my myself when I'm in relationship with folks who have had OCD, I can I can sometimes get impatient, and I imagine they feel impatient with themselves? And so yeah. I I've appreciated what you've shared particularly so that I can renew that desire to be with them in it and to be thoughtful about how, I could support people like that in my life. So challenge by choice, what have you got for

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:53:47]:
us, for all of us? Yeah. So my, My challenge by choice is inspired by a quote from one of my favorite OCD advocates. Her name is Kimberley Quinlan. I don't know if I'm even saying her name right. She's Australian.

Kenna Millea [00:54:07]:
Okay. Oh, good accent to listen to.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:54:09]:
She's very fun to listen to. Yes. And she always says

Kenna Millea [00:54:13]:
What is the name of her podcast?

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:54:14]:
Oh, gosh. I and it's it's My sleep deprived brain.

Kenna Millea [00:54:19]:
No worries. We'll put it in the show notes, guys. No worries.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:54:23]:
She's awesome. She's a great website, actually, a blog, that I highly recommend people look at if they're interested in learning For about OCD in addition to that other one, so that maybe is a link you could throw in there. But she has a say a quote, It's a good day to do hard things. And she says it in Australian accent, which I'm not gonna attempt.

Kenna Millea [00:54:44]:
Your Texan Your native Texan voice can't give it to us.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:54:46]:
Right. That's that's sufficient, I guess. And, I think that, in having the the opportunity to work with people that struggle with OCD, I am just Continually inspired by their courage Mhmm. And just How hard it is to face these things that are so scary.

Kenna Millea [00:55:16]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:55:16]:
And the freedom and, life that's available on the other side of that. You know, I think that in my own life, there have been times where I have operated out of a place of fear, or shame, and it has and it really took from the joy in my life and the growth that was available to me in my life at that time. And it's it is natural to want to avoid pain and suffering that's hardwired into us like we were talking about earlier. But when we're living in fear and it's keeping us from the things that are important to us, I think that offers a really unique opportunity to make space for that and and push through that, so that we can live in line and so that we can live that a life that's driven by our values rather than a life that's That's determined by our fears. Yeah. And that is so difficult to do. And that is something that I get to see people do day in and day out in treatment, and it's just so inspiring to me and, holds me accountable to do the same in my own life, Honestly. You know? So, you know, my challenge To listeners is to to reflect on, you know, whether you have OCD or not.

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:56:59]:
I is there an area of my life where I am living out of a peace a place of for, that I can that is keeping me from living that life that is driven by my values. And can I take One small step, maybe even approaching that thing that scares me in the service of living that values driven life?

Kenna Millea [00:57:26]:
I love that. So this challenge by choice for all of us, wherever yeah. Whether or not we have an OCD diagnosis, like, This acknowledgment that that all of us can get into these patterns and rhythms of avoiding Hard things, and that we're gonna embrace it. We're gonna lean in as we say, and Learn that there is, number 1, that we can get through it. And number 2, that there is something immeasure of immeasurable worth on the other side. Mhmm. I love that. I've got, like, 3 things in my mind that I can think of because I'm I'm totally up for it, and I'm absolutely pitching this to Pat too.

Kenna Millea [00:58:05]:
So thank you so much. You know, Katherine, I'm wondering if if people want to be connected to you and for Those who are here particularly in Minnesota and in the Twin Cities who may want to connect with you professionally Mhmm. How can they do that?

Dr. Katherine Posch [00:58:21]:
Yeah. So I just, actually opened my own private practice. Woo hoo. Yeah. Very exciting. But you can find out more at At renewbehavioralmn.com. Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:58:34]:
Okay. Dotcom. Renewbehavioralmn (Minnesota) dot com. And, again, we'll link that up, in the show notes. So, folks, you can connect with Katherine, checking out those show notes for these resources as well. You know, this is a a unique episode. It's, I don't know if we've actually done any quite like this for.

Kenna Millea [00:58:55]:
But again, we just know, like you said, 2 to 3 million Americans, are suffering under OCD, and so we just knew This needed to be an entire episode. Mhmm. And and most of all, to hear your message of hope as a as a clinician, as a practitioner. That's what excites me is to bring that to our listeners. So thank you so much. Can we close in prayer? And, Yeah. Let's let's do that, and then we'll send everyone on their way. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Amen.

Kenna Millea [00:59:26]:
God of life, You desire to give us abundant life, to give it to us to the fullest, And we know that for so many different factors and reasons, sometimes there are obstacles to that. And so we pray in this moment that you might shine light on any darkness, that is that is overtaken parts of our life, parts of our mind, our time, our freedom, our energy, that you might Reclaim that, and give us the grace to take 1 step toward a life of authenticity, Toward freedom, toward trusting in your providence, Lord. I give you thanks for Katherine, for the time she has spent with us, and for the ways that that her work is for our benefit. Lord god, we offer this Prayer in your Son's holy and powerful name. Amen. In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Again, Katherine, just cannot say what a gift it is to be connected to you.

Kenna Millea [01:00:43]:
Love to have you as a Colleague, love that we are, developing, dare I say, a friendship and look forward to, yeah, benefiting more from what you're learning and and hope we can offer something to you too here at the Martin Center. So listeners, another awesome conversation in the books. Feel free to let us know how is this applicable, what are those Places of growth and discomfort that you are finding yourself leaning into, thanks to Katherine's challenge. Connect with us on the social media, Instagram and Facebook @thiswholelifepodcast, and certainly through our website, thiswholelifepodcast.com. And until next time. God bless you.

Pat Millea [01:01:20]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Kenna Millea [01:01:47]:
So exposure and

Dr. Katherine Posch [01:01:50]:
Provence.

Kenna Millea [01:01:51]:
If only we could be there.