Ep40 Crushing Criticism

"My friends, if anyone is detected in a transgression, you who have received the Spirit should restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness. Take care that you yourselves are not tempted."
~ Galatians 6:1

Why is it so tempting to speak harshly to the people that we love most in the world? How do we overcome this habit and speak with the gentleness that comes from the Holy Spirit?

In this final installment of their four-part series on Dr. John Gottman's 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse for relationships, Kenna and Pat discuss Criticism. They delve into the importance of clear behavioral requests, replacing criticism with positive interactions, and the concept of a "gentle startup" as the antidote to criticism in relationships & marriages. Drawing from their own experiences, they emphasize the detrimental effects of criticism on emotional connection and vulnerability. This episode offers an insightful and heartfelt exploration of emotional connection, personal growth, and the impact of communication dynamics in relationships - not to mention a heated discussion about popular musicians.

Join Pat & Kenna as they close their series on the 4 Horsemen, and get ready to embrace a more connected and joyful relationship!

Episode 40 Show Notes

Check out the first 3 episodes of the 4 Horsemen series:
Episode 14: Defeating Defensiveness
Episode 18: Tearing Down Walls & Building A Connected Marriage (on Stonewalling)
Episode 30: Conquering Contempt

Chapters:
00:00: Intro & a new music-related game
18:22: Highs & Hards
27:42: Explaining Criticism, the last of the Four Horsemen for relationships
42:03: The antidote to Criticism
50:09: Challenge By Choice

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

Follow us on Instagram & Facebook

Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro & a new music-related game
• 18:22 Highs & Hards
• 27:42 Explaining Criticism, the last of the Four Horsemen for relationships
• 42:03 The antidote to Criticism
• 50:09 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Kenna Millea [00:00:00]:
Criticism is this way of not having to run the risk of being vulnerable, being open, potentially being emotionally impacted by you.

Pat Millea [00:00:18]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader, and I'm here with my bride, Kenna, a licensed marriage and family therapist. This is the stuff she and I talk about all the time, doing dishes, in the car, on a date. We're excited to bring you this podcast for educational purposes. It's not therapy or a substitute for mental health care. So come on in. Have a seat at our dining room table and join the conversation with us. We are so glad you're here.

Kenna Millea [00:01:09]:
Welcome back to This Whole Life. It is so great to be with you all. Another episode where we are gonna be seeking that sanity and that sanctity together.

Pat Millea [00:01:19]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:01:20]:
You and me, baby.

Pat Millea [00:01:20]:
Broadcasting from the infirmary in Minnesota. Here we are.

Kenna Millea [00:01:25]:
I know. I was thinking as I sat down, I was like, this is, like, the first time I've, like, looked in your eyes in, like, quite a quite a lot of days. There you are. There you are.

Pat Millea [00:01:36]:
If we were broadcasting last week we would be coming to you straight from the morgue. So this is

Kenna Millea [00:01:42]:
Oh, rough. Sorry about that, my friend.

Pat Millea [00:01:45]:
So this is an improvement. I promise. Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:01:47]:
Yeah. But I just I'm I'm thinking, like, we just haven't, like, sat down in an intentional way lately. It's just been, like, Survival mode. So it's

Pat Millea [00:01:58]:
We did miss date night last week as we were both lying prone on the couch next each other. Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:02:05]:
Just absolutely trying to make it another day. But it is good to be with you all. We are we are back. You don't even know that we had to cancel a couple recording sessions because we were so sick.

Pat Millea [00:02:15]:
And what do you care about contagious diseases through a microphone? It's all good.

Kenna Millea [00:02:19]:
Oh, man. But, yes, it is so good to be with you all. And I'm gonna take this moment here at the front end just to ask that, if you are a long time listener or if you're a newcomer here and you're liking what you're finding, would you please do us the honor of, subscribing to this podcast, helping us to increase our listening community and to be more visible on podcast players. Rate us, review us, check us out on social media, connect with us, and give us feedback. If you knew if feedback is a love language, I speak it fluently, and I would love to hear what you want to hear because otherwise

Pat Millea [00:03:03]:
Little known sixth love language?

Kenna Millea [00:03:04]:
Yeah. Someone the other day asked us. He was like, hey. How do you guys come up with, you know, what you're gonna talk about in your podcast? And I'm like, we talk about what I wanna talk about. Like, Unless someone gives me a topic, we're just gonna talk about the things that Pat and I keep tripping over or something new that I read in research that I'm like, oh, this is exciting.

Pat Millea [00:03:21]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:03:21]:
So help us to be a little more precise, by letting us know what you wanna hear. So Yep. There's that. And welcome.

Pat Millea [00:03:30]:
Welcome. So glad that you're here. And in in the 1st opportunity to look deep into your eyes, my love, I would like to play a little game with you To have fun and, to

Kenna Millea [00:03:40]:
You guys, if you could see my face right now. Oh, man. It would really betray my level of excitement because Pat throws these things at me without any warning.

Pat Millea [00:03:49]:
Nobody loves fun like Kenna Millea.

Kenna Millea [00:03:50]:
Hey! Just spontaneous Unknown fun is less high on the list.

Pat Millea [00:03:58]:
You like fun that you have been able to plan for for a while to be ready.

Kenna Millea [00:04:03]:
Alright. What's your game, dude?

Pat Millea [00:04:05]:
Here we go.

Kenna Millea [00:04:06]:
Let's do it.

Pat Millea [00:04:06]:
This is gonna come up in my highs and hards later as well, but I've had lots of just thoughts and musings about music recently? Yes. K. So here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna play a little game of This or That. Alright? I'm gonna give you 2 options.

Kenna Millea [00:04:19]:
K.

Pat Millea [00:04:20]:
And they're gonna be have, like, a goofy relation to them in some way that I will explain mostly in the names. K. And all you have to do is tell me which musician or musical artist You prefer.

Kenna Millea [00:04:31]:
Oh, okay.

Pat Millea [00:04:31]:
K? So this is not and right out of the gates, I I'm gonna need to clarify, not their personal life, Not if you wanna hang out with them on the weekends. I'm just talking their musical library, whose music would you rather listen to more.

Kenna Millea [00:04:44]:
Okay? Alright.

Pat Millea [00:04:45]:
So here we go. Round 1. The king of pop, Michael Jackson

Kenna Millea [00:04:51]:
k.

Pat Millea [00:04:51]:
Or Queen?

Kenna Millea [00:04:53]:
Oh, Michael Jackson, for sure. Really? Oh, absolutely. Like, immediately when you said it, like, all I could think about was, like, dancing in the kitchen. And with Queen, like no. I think about, like, banging My head and my hair is messy. No. No.

Pat Millea [00:05:06]:
Like, Bicycle?

Kenna Millea [00:05:07]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:05:10]:
None of that stuff?

Kenna Millea [00:05:10]:
No. I was I think I was Also older when I was introduced to Queen, whereas, like, Michael Jackson has been there for me since I was a a wee lass.

Pat Millea [00:05:18]:
So you came back around to Queen because Queen was obviously Michael Jackson.

Kenna Millea [00:05:22]:
Yes, they literally existed before.

Pat Millea [00:05:23]:
But not in your life.

Kenna Millea [00:05:24]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. In my consciousness.

Pat Millea [00:05:26]:
I respect Michael Jackson's music a lot. I think I might go with Queen, though.

Kenna Millea [00:05:31]:
Interesting. I've literally never heard you listen to Queen ever in my whole life.

Pat Millea [00:05:35]:
You have too.

Kenna Millea [00:05:36]:
K. Moving on. Next question.

Pat Millea [00:05:37]:
Maybe. Alright. Here we go. This is a, showdown of And The

Kenna Millea [00:05:43]:
Okay?

Pat Millea [00:05:44]:
Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers.

Kenna Millea [00:05:46]:
K?

Pat Millea [00:05:46]:
Or Huey Lewis and the News.

Kenna Millea [00:05:48]:
Oh, Huey Lewis. That's totally a shout out to my dad. Again, I was raised on Huey Lewis. My dad played Golf with Huey Lewis, we met him, I'm pretty sure, at dinner that night.

Pat Millea [00:05:57]:
Sick brag.

Kenna Millea [00:05:58]:
Sick brag. I mean, but, like, yes. He just has a place in my heart personal connection.

Pat Millea [00:06:03]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:06:03]:
And Tom Petty I mean, you gotta know Pat. I'm a pretty simple woman. And so it's just the tone of the music, and Huey Lewis is just a little happier for me.

Pat Millea [00:06:14]:
Sure. Oh, yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:06:15]:
Yeah. And, yeah, Tom Petty, I'm like, oh, well

Pat Millea [00:06:18]:
I feel kinda the same way. We're so here's the deal. Objectively, I know that Tom Petty

Kenna Millea [00:06:22]:
is the better musician. 1000%.

Pat Millea [00:06:24]:
No one could argue that. Okay. Like and I love Tom Petty's music, like learning to fly And free falling. Like, just like, nonstop kind of eighties rock bangers, you know, and not, like, Terrible synth eighties rock, but, like, really solid eighties rock. You know? But Huey Lewis and the News is just a stone cold guilty pleasure for me. And I get I'm listening to it. I'm like, I this is not intelligent music.

Pat Millea [00:06:51]:
It's not complex music, but, man, it's fun stuff. It's just so good. I might lean Huey Lewis too Alright. Just for fun. Alright. I made the kids listen to it in the car the other day, and our teenage daughter was like, what Is happening.

Kenna Millea [00:07:05]:
And you were like, amazing things are happening. You're welcome.

Pat Millea [00:07:08]:
Be quiet and learn.

Kenna Millea [00:07:09]:
There's there's gonna be a day when she appreciates

Pat Millea [00:07:11]:
Okay.

Kenna Millea [00:07:12]:
The education

Pat Millea [00:07:13]:
Showdown number 3.

Kenna Millea [00:07:13]:
K.

Pat Millea [00:07:14]:
Groups from, probably sixties, seventies. I would say both of them active around the same time, that almost rhyme but don't. The Beatles or the Eagles?

Kenna Millea [00:07:27]:
Oh, that's It's tough.

Pat Millea [00:07:29]:
I thought this one might be really hard for you.

Kenna Millea [00:07:31]:
Wow. Such different moods. Like, I'm feeling in my my body's conflicted, thinking about the 2 of them at the same time. Okay. Oh, this is not a moral decision. Okay. I'm gonna go with the Beatles. Oh.

Kenna Millea [00:07:50]:
I know. Oh, no. I gotta go to the Eagles. Oh, gosh. It was a thing where, like, I said it, and then I imagined tasting that flavor of it. And they're like, no. No. No.

Kenna Millea [00:07:57]:
I gotta pick this scoop instead. Yep. Okay. The Eagles. The Eagles. Final answer. You.

Pat Millea [00:08:03]:
That was

Kenna Millea [00:08:04]:
What do you

Pat Millea [00:08:05]:
agonizing to watch, much less for you to live through, probably. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:08:09]:
Pretty sure shaved off few years in my life there. What about for you?

Pat Millea [00:08:12]:
I think I would go Eagles too. I I Yeah. I've been on record. It is well documented that I think the Beatles are wildly overrated as a band.

Kenna Millea [00:08:20]:
You do hold that opinion, you contrarian, you.

Pat Millea [00:08:21]:
I don't think they're bad, they're not a bad band. They're certainly not I I can respect Their place in musical history, the way that they changed music, especially in America, I can they're very good. But Them getting in every and it seems like just everyone has accepted, they're the best band of all time.

Kenna Millea [00:08:39]:
Yeah. We have kind of

Pat Millea [00:08:40]:
Disagree.

Kenna Millea [00:08:42]:
Beaten into that, yeah.

Pat Millea [00:08:43]:
Especially later on. Like, The earlier stuff, actually, I love. Like, some of the, like, more poppy kind of, like, coming out of the Fifties kind of vibe type of thing.

Kenna Millea [00:08:52]:
You know you're just begging for some listener to educate you. Right? You're gonna get some long email walking you through the the seasons and the movements of the Beatles.

Pat Millea [00:09:01]:
Dude, drug fueled Beatles like Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, I I don't have time for that Stuff, man. I can't do it. So I I think I would lean Eagles too just for the pure harmonies. And I get that the Eagles were probably pretty drug fueled as well.

Kenna Millea [00:09:15]:
I was gonna say, I thought we weren't judging people's personal lives.

Pat Millea [00:09:20]:
It was just harm harmoniously pleasing to me. Anyway okay. Next up, single name females, Shakira or Beyonce?

Kenna Millea [00:09:31]:
Oh, Shakira.

Pat Millea [00:09:32]:
Yeah?

Kenna Millea [00:09:33]:
She's my girl.

Pat Millea [00:09:34]:
Shakira. Shakira.

Kenna Millea [00:09:36]:
You know what? Interestingly okay. So Hips Don't Eye has a very prominent place in your and my, like, beginning of our relationship.

Pat Millea [00:09:45]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:09:45]:
You used to text me lyrics from that song all the time out of nowhere. Now, like, what's happening. Does he love me? I'm not sure how to read into this.

Pat Millea [00:09:52]:
Refugees run the seas because we own our own boats. Right. Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:09:56]:
But it's that Zootopia song, And then that, what is it? The World Cup song that you play for us all the time?

Pat Millea [00:10:03]:
Waka. Yeah. The soccer song. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:10:05]:
You have to link all of these, by the Oh, yeah. But those are the ones that get me. And I'm like, that is Zootopia song, man. It brings tears to my eyes. Like, if I need to do something hard, I just listen to that song. And I'm like, you're right. Like, birds don't know how to fly right away. Like, Shakira

Kenna Millea [00:10:21]:
I will keep trying. I will get up again.

Pat Millea [00:10:24]:
You're right, cartoon animal.

Kenna Millea [00:10:26]:
She moves me. Okay. You? Yeah. Shakira as well.

Pat Millea [00:10:31]:
Yeah. Again, like, I I have nothing against Beyonce. She's got amazing music. Most of it's probably not for me. I just I wouldn't choose to listen to Beyonce for fun, but a lot of her songs are great. Shakira, though, is, like, right up my alley for sure. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:10:43]:
That's a good head to head. That felt like Mhmm. Level there.

Pat Millea [00:10:47]:
Alright. Next up, Frontline singing gentlemen, Billy Joel or Bruce Springsteen?

Kenna Millea [00:10:54]:
Can I say neither? Can I go back can I go back and pick the Eagles the Beatles, if I just don't pick either of the I just neither of them do it for me? I don't understand like, people, women particularly, are very, very opinionated about this, and they are firmly campaigning for 1 or the other or sometimes both, I guess. Yeah. You?

Pat Millea [00:11:17]:
You refuse to choose?

Kenna Millea [00:11:18]:
I refuse to choose.

Pat Millea [00:11:19]:
You refuse to choose. What courage.

Kenna Millea [00:11:21]:
What about

Pat Millea [00:11:23]:
Billy Joel by a mile. Oh. By a mile. I again, it's another thing where a controversial kind of contrarian take. I think the Boss is Pretty wildly overrated too. And he I just I I never had any experience with him until I was in college. And by that point, I didn't get the whole, like, Blue collar Detroit rock vibe. It just like I don't know.

Pat Millea [00:11:42]:
It it it's it's fine. I'm not gonna turn off Born in the USA, but I'm not gonna choose to listen to any of his stuff. Billy Joel, I loved for many years. I had a a Billy Joel. I don't know why I got this, but I had, like, a 4 CD, Like, greatest hit set. Basically, any good song that Billy Joel's ever written, and I love some of that stuff. Like,

Pat Millea [00:12:01]:
all the way for obviously, we didn't start the fire piano and all that down to, like, Songs no one's ever heard of, like Downeaster Alexa. It's about a ship that sinks. I could sing you the whole song. Allentown, which is a depressing song about The the fall of a town when the industry leaves. I love that song. It just it's so good. I love Billy Joel. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:12:20]:
Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:12:21]:
I'll be honest. I didn't even connect to that Piano Man and what was the other one you said?

Pat Millea [00:12:26]:
We didn't start the fire.

Kenna Millea [00:12:27]:
We didn't start the fire. Didn't even connect it. That's how little space he takes up in my brain. So

Pat Millea [00:12:33]:
Both Billy Joel.

Kenna Millea [00:12:34]:
Sorry, Billy.

Pat Millea [00:12:34]:
It's like when people learn that, like, the guy who killed Goliath, The guy who wrote the Psalms, King David, all the same guy.

Kenna Millea [00:12:41]:
Right? All the same. Yeah. Like, if you gave me, like, a lineup of, like, 6 Gentlemen, I couldn't pick Bill Billy Joel out in that lineup. Like, he's just so on my the periphery of my brain.

Pat Millea [00:12:54]:
Oh, he's so good.

Kenna Millea [00:12:55]:
Oh my gosh. About that.

Pat Millea [00:12:56]:
I'll educate you Someday. Okay. Showdown of Ladies. Okay. Lady Gaga or Lady A, the artist formerly known As

Kenna Millea [00:13:04]:
Lady Antebellum. Antebellum. That's right. For sure, Lady A. It's also the 1st country artist you've really given me here. So

Pat Millea [00:13:10]:
It's true.

Kenna Millea [00:13:11]:
Thanks for that. But, but, yeah, but definitely, Lady A. And, again, mainly just because Lady Gaga's style of music just isn't my Is it my jam? Yeah. So yeah. You?

Pat Millea [00:13:22]:
Not a big poker face fan?

Kenna Millea [00:13:23]:
Not a big poker face fan.

Pat Millea [00:13:25]:
I don't care for either.

Kenna Millea [00:13:26]:
Oh.

Pat Millea [00:13:27]:
This is my Billy Bruce showdown. I just I'd I'd rather listen to I think eh, maybe not. Almost anyone else on this list than these 2. But if I had to, I'd probably go Lady Gaga. Mhmm. But I would wanna pick the songs.

Kenna Millea [00:13:40]:
Selectively. Yeah. It'd be a short discography.

Pat Millea [00:13:42]:
Yeah. Correct. Right. Right. Right. Showdown of Justin's, Timberlake for Bieber?

Kenna Millea [00:13:48]:
Oh, for sure. Timberlake. Oh my goodness. Do I get to pull N'Sync in that as well?

Pat Millea [00:13:53]:
Nope. Nope. Just solo JT.

Kenna Millea [00:13:56]:
Okay. I assume you're JT.

Pat Millea [00:13:57]:
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I say that it's closer than I would have initially thought. There are a couple Justin Bieber songs that I really like.

Kenna Millea [00:14:05]:
Oh.

Pat Millea [00:14:06]:
Some of the early ones I like just because they're goofy and hilarious, and it's like a 13 year old singing about love. But some of the more late ones, I really like too, more like, rap type things that he's done with some other folks, You know, like, joint projects.

Kenna Millea [00:14:18]:
I didn't know he raps.

Pat Millea [00:14:19]:
He does not, but he works with rappers at times.

Kenna Millea [00:14:22]:
Yeah. Cool.

Pat Millea [00:14:23]:
But it I it's still Justin Timberlake, but it's not that much of a gap for me.

Kenna Millea [00:14:27]:
Do you feel like maybe this is what it would be like to interview a grandma about, music choices? I'm like, I didn't know he raps. Well, that is so neat.

Pat Millea [00:14:37]:
On that topic, next showdown, four letter band names

Kenna Millea [00:14:42]:
Okay.

Pat Millea [00:14:42]:
ABBA or AC/DC.

Kenna Millea [00:14:45]:
Oh, gosh. Okay. ABBA. For sure. Just because I cannot I can't stomach the sound of most of anything that ACDC has ever put out there. Yeah. Yeah. Woo.

Kenna Millea [00:14:58]:
Bebe. Yep. You?

Pat Millea [00:15:00]:
Oh, Give me ACDC. Everything ACDC has ever written over anything that ABBA has ever done on this earth.

Kenna Millea [00:15:07]:
I mean, ABBA is, like, it's very niche. You know, I don't wanna listen to more than maybe 2 songs in a row of it. But yeah.

Pat Millea [00:15:14]:
I don't wanna listen to more than 2 seconds of it. I just oh my gosh. Mamma Mia makes me just wanna leave the room. ACDC is like, it is good. I listened to a lot of ACDC growing up too, and it was

Kenna Millea [00:15:25]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:15:26]:
It was great. Yep. It was formative for me. I think in a good way. American Idol winners, Kelly Clarkson or Carrie Underwood?

Kenna Millea [00:15:34]:
Oh, that's a good one. I'm gonna go Kelly Clarkson. Again, I repeat, so much history for you and I under the Kelly Clarkson sun. But yeah. I mean, both amazing, talented singers, like, in their own right.

Pat Millea [00:15:50]:
Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:15:51]:
But, yeah, I I love the Kelly. Gotta go with the OG American Idol.

Pat Millea [00:15:55]:
I think I lean Kelly too for obvious reasons. I love I just Was telling you this past Christmas season how much I love Carrie Underwood's version of Do You Hear What I Hear? Like, Carrie Underwood's voice is undefeated. It just like, Her pure vocal talent and the way she, like, drills some of these notes head on is just amazing. But Kelly Clarkson, man, I had a long run with Since U Been Gone.

Kenna Millea [00:16:20]:
Wasn't it your ringtone?

Pat Millea [00:16:21]:
It was my ringtone. Back when we did that, there Everyone in my life knew that it was like my song, quote, unquote, to the point where at our wedding reception, I was lifted up off the ground And paraded around the dance floor

Kenna Millea [00:16:34]:
I forgot about this.

Pat Millea [00:16:34]:
To the song Since U Been Gone. Because it's just a nonstop banger.

Kenna Millea [00:16:38]:
$10 to anyone who can unearth, the video footage of that moment.

Pat Millea [00:16:42]:
And 20 to anyone who can bury it again. Right. Final showdown. K. Former Mickey Mouse Club members, Britney Spears or Christina Aguilera?

Kenna Millea [00:16:52]:
Oh, I was like, who's this gonna be? Because you already told me Justin.

Pat Millea [00:16:55]:
That's right.

Kenna Millea [00:16:55]:
Okay. Britney Oh, Christina Aguilera. I just had to think through this. Really? Oh my gosh. I love Christina. The other day, I was on the treadmill, and I was like, I think You and I have been talking about some song of hers.

Pat Millea [00:17:06]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:17:07]:
And I was like, I gotta go back and play Christina Aguilera Radio on Spotify. And I was like, I forget how much I love her music.

Pat Millea [00:17:15]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:17:16]:
I listen to it, I think, a lot without even college or, Yeah. Like, early college maybe or late in high school.

Pat Millea [00:17:22]:
Yep. Early 2000. Yeah. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:17:24]:
I think our family listened to a lot of Christina Aguilera, my dad. I think my dad really liked her voice. So Yeah. Yeah. We had her CD in the 6 disc changer at home, and so she came on the rotation.

Pat Millea [00:17:37]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:17:37]:
Yeah. You? Christina?

Pat Millea [00:17:39]:
I think so. Woah. It's it's really close. I do again, Christina is by far a better Talent. I just like a better voice, but I do respect what Britney Spears did in just, like, changing music herself. Like, I I don't think there would have been a Christina without Britney coming, like, 2 or 3 years before. You know? So I think there's some of that. But, yeah, like, Ain't No Other Man, Candyman.

Pat Millea [00:18:06]:
Like, Christina has some just phenomenal hits that I would listen to in any setting. So does Britney. I give Christina the slight edge.

Kenna Millea [00:18:14]:
Alright. Alright. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:18:16]:
Yeah. Well, that was fun. See, not too painful. Look at that.

Kenna Millea [00:18:18]:
Not too painful.

Pat Millea [00:18:19]:
Not too painful. Yep. Speaking of not too painful Yeah. Can you start us off with your highs and hards there, my love?

Kenna Millea [00:18:27]:
Oh, okay. Okay. So I'm gonna try to not make this the highs and hards of our latest illnesses. So we'll see if this yeah. I can do this. Okay. So I would say my hard lately is I've been reading if you've been listening on the pod, you know, I've been trying to do more just like pleasure reading, like non work, non, you know, spiritual direction type reading. So I am on Angela's Ashes, by Frank McCourt.

Kenna Millea [00:18:58]:
It's the Pulitzer Prize winning novel memoir, really memoir, and actually got introduced to him through, a kid's Christmas story that he wrote called Angela and the Baby Jesus, and was just intrigued. And I was like, Angela Ashes is like that titles floating around all the time. So it's a story of his life growing up, in Ireland and in, in New York City. And it is it is so sad. Like, it is it is just, It's heavy, and and it's heavy because it's a memoir. Right? Like, this is his real life, and he tells it so beautifully. If you have not read this, I'm Really excited for Pat, as an Irish Catholic, to read this when I'm done. But if you've not picked up this book, I highly recommend it.

Kenna Millea [00:19:53]:
His writing style is brilliant. I mean, I've told you, Pat, like, as I'm laying there at night reading it, you know, I I feel my body and my emotions are absolutely, like, right there with him, and he makes me feel like I am living just this absolute just, you know, living in squalor, impoverished, hungry, dirty, sick, you know, poorly clothed, just abused by teachers and others and just, so it's but it's hard because The reality is this is a lot of people's story Yeah. Especially historically when we think about the depression, and it and it still is people's story, in our country, around the world. And so this hard is just I I don't wanna Stop. Because I I want to understand more of the human experience than my own privileged experience. But it is. It's hard. And, I'm I'm learning that I can't I shouldn't and, if I'm being prudent, I shouldn't read it right before bed, because I just keep reading.

Kenna Millea [00:21:02]:
Because I I told you the other night, like, I finally realized it's because I keep waiting to end like, to be able to close the book for the night on a high note, and it just never comes.

Pat Millea [00:21:11]:
Like, ah, okay. That's a nice place to take a break.

Kenna Millea [00:21:14]:
It just never comes. And so that sounds kind of weird, like, okay, Kenna. You're self inflicting this, but, but it is. It's just hard to realize that, like, this is the truth for so many. So that would be the hard. I would say the high on, like, whoo, total different, note, is this, January, so I'm gonna date this a little bit. But some friends and I undertook a challenge. And, you know, there's kind of been jokes that are running.

Kenna Millea [00:21:46]:
You'll hear Pat and I jest here on the podcast about my love for intense physical endeavors, and, You know, we did the what was that thing called this for? That race? The Rugged Maniac.

Pat Millea [00:21:58]:
Spartan Race? Oh, the Rugged Maniac. Yeah. Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:22:00]:
And, we did most certainly did not do a Spartan. But we did a Rugged Maniac, and it was fun. And so some friends and I undertook this challenge through Nourish Move Love, who's, like, my favorite YouTube free workout guru. And long story short, just all these ridiculous challenges, but the final workout culminates in all a 100 reps of all these different difficult exercises like push ups and kettlebell swings and, burpees and just all these different things. And it was just I don't know. I I I don't play, like, an adult softball league. I don't, like, play a CoRec soccer on a CoRec soccer team. Like, There's just not a lot of opportunity as an adult for me to, like, challenge myself physically and to do it in a sense of community, which is, like, my favorite thing.

Kenna Millea [00:22:48]:
So it was just an awesome high to get through the program, to be able to complete the final workout. And, yeah, just to feel like, hey. That was that was kinda cool. Like, we support our kids all the time in their physical feats. But to be able to do that and to talk about it with you, was and to talk about friends was really, yeah, unique and, just, I don't know, change of pace. So go Go my biceps. That's all I got for that.

Pat Millea [00:23:16]:
I was pretty impressed. I was really proud of you. When you came home and told me all that stuff that you did, I said you did that In the past month? And you said, no. No. No. Today.

Kenna Millea [00:23:23]:
You, you did the very first workout with me, and I was like, I'm pretty sure he's not gonna talk to me for the next week. And you you didn't come back. You didn't come back for another workout. I was so surprised.

Pat Millea [00:23:32]:
I didn't talk to you for, like, 10 minutes, and then I came back around. It was fine.

Kenna Millea [00:23:36]:
High and hard for you, my dear.

Pat Millea [00:23:35]:
I am gonna go with the recent illness. My hard was last week when all of us were sick. We have 7 children, friends, and all but one Blessed survivor.

Kenna Millea [00:23:50]:
What is his secret?

Pat Millea [00:23:51]:
I don't know.

Kenna Millea [00:23:49]:
How did he escape?

Pat Millea [00:23:53]:
I don't know. It thank thank goodness he took care of us half the time.

Kenna Millea [00:23:51]:
He really did.

Pat Millea [00:23:58]:
Yeah. It was it was a little dicey. We just had, like, a flu bug run through the house. So aches and headaches and minor Fevers and things like that. But man, oh, man, when when 1 kid is home from school, when they normally would go to school, it kinda throws our whole world up in The air. But when 5 kids at a time are home sick and you and I are sick too, so we're not much help, oh, boy. That was really hard. And there was a time period so I was one of the early ones to get sick, and then mine kind of dragged on, but it I was definitely in way better shape than you.

Pat Millea [00:23:57]:
So It was it kinda fell on me to take care of the other people in our family. And the hard, honestly, was being confronted with my own Selfishness, I think, because yeah. At no point was I, like, resentful or begrudging. Like, I can't believe that they can't do this stuff. Like, I was very happy to serve and give, but I just run out of energy at a certain point. And I believe that If I like, the more selfless that I could be, the more energy that I would be able to have to give possibly. So, so just like running up against my like like, my own human limits, I guess. And not all selfishness.

Pat Millea [00:25:12]:
Some of it was just pure exhaustion, and that's Human. There's no sin in that, obviously. So some of it was just, like, running up against my own limitations, but it was an exhausting week. I'm really glad for us to be on the way back to health. God willing. So, so that was difficult. My high and it's been a little while, but we haven't talked about it yet. We recently were able to take a trip down to Florida to visit with some of your family members and to do some, like, theme park things with our kids.

Pat Millea [00:25:39]:
And the whole week was really great, but one day in particular, Harry Potter day, was just glorious. And

Kenna Millea [00:25:47]:
Yeah. You haven't debriefed about this. Not. And the airwaves.

Pat Millea [00:25:11]:
And I won't do it for long because I could talk the entire episode, but we have more important stuff to talk about. So me and your brother took our 3 oldest kids to Islands of Adventure at Universal, and the the the main attraction for us was Harry Potter World. So we went, we spent most of the day there. And it is re I if you've been, you know. If you haven't been and you want to go, it'll cost you $7,000 with almost no exaggeration, but it is so worth it and so fun. The rides are great. And really just the whole ambiance of the place.

Pat Millea [00:26:22]:
They've built Hogwarts castle. They built Hogsmeade, the little village next to it. And it's like you're standing in the middle of a Harry Potter book. It's just The whole thing is immersive. There are like magic wands that you can do things with around town. You can drink butter beer, which does not have alcohol in it. Thank goodness. And our kids had so much fun, and I had so much fun just watching them have fun.

Pat Millea [00:26:46]:
Like, they went on rides. They went on roller coasters our our the youngest one that was with us was 8 years old, and he went on the Incredible Hulk roller coaster

Kenna Millea [00:26:54]:
I still can't believe it.

Pat Millea [00:26:55]:
Which is A wildly intense roller coaster.

Kenna Millea [00:26:59]:
I Look it up. Just Google it and watch the video of it, and you're like, what? They let an 8 year old on that ride.

Pat Millea [00:27:04]:
This is no exaggeration. He was upside down about as much as he was right side up on that roller coaster, and he came off with this big smile on his face. It was just It was so fun. The day was great. The kids handled it really well. I was worried about them being able to, like, be on their feet for that long and walk around the park and all that, wait in long lines, and It was just so fun. It was, like, one of those kind of peak parenting moments with kids. So it was great.

Kenna Millea [00:27:28]:
That's awesome. I'm glad they have you to to go and to, Yeah. Just be with them and be in the spirit of it. I guarantee you, increase their joy.

Pat Millea [00:27:37]:
And I am happy to be their Harry Potter parent. That is totally fine. Okay. So to pivot into another great conversation today, we get to finish off Our 4 part series on, appropriately enough, the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Dr. Gottman's four toxic things to avoid in relationships and in marriage. So

Kenna Millea [00:28:01]:
In our communication with each other. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:28:03]:
Exactly. Right. So it it's gonna be great, very practical, Very actionable for couples to make their marriage better than it ever was before. So to to kinda set the stage to recap a little bit, Dr. John Gottman is this great researcher and clinician who over the years has studied thousands and thousands of interactions between couples, And he's identified what he calls these 4 horsemen of the apocalypse, these 4 habits, these 4 ways of interacting between couples that are especially dangerous and destructive in the course of a relationship. And there are 4 of them, like I said, and they he said they tend to show up in order most often.

Kenna Millea [00:28:45]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:28:46]:
And they tend to get increasingly serious As the couple kind of progresses down this slippery slope. So the first one to show up in a typical relationship It's actually the final one that we are talking about in this series. It's the one we're gonna talk about today. It's the the horsemen of criticism. And then the the second one would move on to contempt, Which we've already discussed. Defensiveness and then stonewalling would typically be kind of the final horsemen to show up, And that's the one that is kind of the the death knell for a relationship, so to speak.

Kenna Millea [00:29:17]:
And we'll link all those previous episodes

Pat Millea [00:29:19]:
Bingo.

Kenna Millea [00:29:20]:
In the show notes. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:29:20]:
So you can go back and listen to those episodes too. Yep. Yep. And these really do kinda set the tone for a conversation. He said that he he's found that in his studies, If criticism shows up in a conversation, there is a 96% chance that that conversation is going to devolve into a a really unhelpful, possibly really harmful conversation, and that more of these horsemen will show up in that conversation too. So Criticism is a really bad way to start, basically. Yeah. And all the horsemen are predictors of instability and unhappiness Just in general in a relationship.

Pat Millea [00:29:57]:
So the more that we can root out these 4 horsemen and the more that we can cure them with some of the antidotes that we've Proposed from Doctor Gottman already, the better suited we'll be to have great healthy communication, great connected marriages, great relationships. So with all that in the background, we're gonna end with the beginning. We're gonna end with criticism. Can you, my bride, explain to us maybe what Criticism is what what it looks like and maybe what it isn't, based on what we kind of think when we hear the word criticism maybe.

Kenna Millea [00:30:31]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So, You know, even just in the word criticism, the the image that comes into my mind is someone, like, being picked apart. Right? Just, someone being scrutinized and analyzed and judged, and pulled to pieces. And so Gottman describes it as an ad hominem attack. Right? So it's actually coming at the person themselves distinct from their behaviors, their choices, you know, things they have or haven't done, words they said or didn't say. And I think it comes out of this very human inclination to make sense of things. Right? So when I'm feeling bad in in life, If I'm in a crabby mood, if I'm feeling down on myself, if I'm feeling disconnected from you, Pat, the the human inclination is to scan my environment to go, what what is it that's making me feel so gross? And to identify something and be like, oh, let's fix that.

Kenna Millea [00:31:34]:
And so what can often happen is I'm scanning my environment, and I go, you there. You human being.

Pat Millea [00:31:40]:
You look like a problem.

Kenna Millea [00:31:41]:
You look like you could cause me a lot of grief, I'm gonna come at you. And so it's, putting blame, placing fault on the other as, like, you're the reason, you know, that I'm I'm not, happy. I'm not feeling connected. I'm not feeling fulfilled. Being able to, you know and this can certainly happen with a spouse or a significant other. It can happen with kids. It can happen with some at the grocery store. Like, let's be real.

Pat Millea [00:32:11]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:32:11]:
We can do this critical, kind of analysis and and blaming. So what it actually looks like concretely then if you know, that's kind of the internal process. What it looks like concretely is, exaggerated statements, always, never. So you always talk to me that way. You never bring in the trash cans from the curb. I always have to do it. You know, just these really big exaggerated statements, and you could and you can just hear it. Like, it's this kind of categorically, judging and assessing the other as bad.

Kenna Millea [00:32:54]:
And you're like, yeah. That them be fighting words. Like, I can see how that's gonna incite us into an argument. So that's one element, exaggerated statements. Another one is why. Why do you do it like that? Why why do you wash the pans that way? Why do you load the dishwasher like that? Why do you wipe the counters that way? And, again, that the the inference is you are wrong, you are bad for doing it that way, there is something wrong with you, and there's that attack of the other, tearing down of their personhood. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:33:27]:
Another one, we talk about this one in my office often, is jokes about your spouse's flaws. Mhmm. There may come a day when a marriage is strong enough that, you know, there can be jest and joking. But for for many of us, to be honest, until we've really, gotten into the habit of clean communication, quote, joking about our spouse's flaws is really just being aggressive. I'm not even gonna call it passive aggressive because it is aggressive. It's like a manipulative aggression, I would say. Mhmm. Because then when the spouse says, hey.

Kenna Millea [00:34:05]:
That really hurt my feelings. You're like, I was just kidding. Yeah. You know, it's so easy to to diffuse - not diffuse - deflect and deny, and get defensive.

Pat Millea [00:34:13]:
I still remember years ago now for I stopped using Facebook because it's kind of the worst, I had put a post up there That I meant in total innocence, and it was an absolute joke because you had said something that was, like, funny in the sense that it was Ignorant. Like, there was information about the world that you didn't know, and I thought it was funny that somebody wouldn't know that thing, whatever it was. And It genuinely, in my brain, is additionally funny because you are probably the smartest person I know. So the idea that you don't know anything always strikes me as Humorous and funny. So I shared this funny, like, conversation on Facebook, and you very appropriately, very helpfully came and told me later on, like, It's really hurtful to me that you would do that. What I would say what what I was perceiving as isn't it funny How such a brilliant person and I was focused on the brilliance. How such a brilliant person cannot know something. What you were saying for what you were looking at was You're just making fun of my stupidity, basically.

Pat Millea [00:35:16]:
You know? Totally unintended, but absolutely real that you would perceive it that way. And even if I meant it in innocence, no joke is worth hurting your feelings. So it's it's I have learned to try to weed that particular version of criticism out for sure.

Kenna Millea [00:35:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. Good example. Another way that criticism shows up is anytime we use the shoulding language. And I'll say, you know, with clients, like, okay. We gotta stop shoulding on ourselves. But that that is, again, communicating this message of, like like, you are bad because you don't do this Saying, right, you should water the tomatoes this way indicates, like, come on. What is the matter with you? There's something wrong with you Pat you don't do it this way you should.

Kenna Millea [00:36:05]:
Another one, and I oh, as a mom in particular, I find this really tricky. It's the coming back and fixing it after the fact. So, you know, if you load the dishwasher and then I come back 20 minutes later and I'm, like, resorting things to my liking. And it's not just like, oh, I'm gonna add this other dish, and so I'm gonna scoot that bowl this way.

Pat Millea [00:36:28]:
Sure. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:36:28]:
But it's like, I go back and I redo it, and it's this nonverbal, very strong message of, like, you didn't do it right. You messed up. Look what you did.

Pat Millea [00:36:38]:
You wasted both of our time, and now I'll do it the right way. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:36:42]:
And so it's that criticism. Right? Like, it's that critique of how I did something, in a very real way.

Pat Millea [00:36:48]:
The dishwasher is a good example because I know many people in the world have very strong dishwasher feelings. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:36:54]:
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then the final thing, a way in which we can, review our behavior and and gut check ourselves here of, you know, am I am I doing anything that might be critical toward my spouse is in our tone. And so an angry sarcastic tone, is going to convey criticism. So, you know, for example, if I said something to you, Pat, like, are you are you gonna remember today to pick up the kids from school? Oh, like, something along those lines. That was really funny.

Pat Millea [00:37:29]:
That's a great example because it's as if I forgot to pick up the kids from school one day. All the kids.

Kenna Millea [00:37:35]:
Right. They're just they

Pat Millea [00:37:36]:
stayed at school until 7 PM. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:37:39]:
We got home. We're having a quiet dinner. We were like, what's different about tonight than all the other nights? But okay. That joke aside, if I were serious and I said that in that way, again, it's this criticism of, like, you know, you're an idiot, you're punk, you're a jerk, like, you've forgotten. So that's what we're talking about concretely when we when we say criticism. And, You know, when I was thinking about this and thinking through my work with clients, I was thinking about our own marriage Pat and and getting to observe so many other relationship dynamics where criticism shows up because it it does for all of us at, you know, at times, it's really it It struck me that when I'm critical, it it prevents me from having to risk vulnerability. Instead of being and we'll get into this more with the antidote here in a moment. But instead of being more self disclosing and sharing with you, like, hey.

Kenna Millea [00:38:40]:
What I really would have preferred is or it was really disappointing for me when such and such happened. Criticism is this way of not having to run the risk of being vulnerable, being open, potentially being emotionally impacted by you.

Pat Millea [00:38:59]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:39:00]:
And instead, you know, oftentimes, I think Criticism comes out because we've been bottling up resentments and upset feelings. Something happened with us. It was before the sickness. So I can't even remember the content, but one night, you and I had a moment, and you said, like, hey. I didn't appreciate though, you know, the way that that went down, whatever whatever with in front of the kids. And I stopped myself, and I was like, you know what? Like, For things happened today that felt to me like it had been in that similar vein. And because I didn't take the time to address it with you when it had happened.

Kenna Millea [00:39:38]:
Mhmm. It came out as this criticism later that night.

Pat Millea [00:39:41]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:39:42]:
And this sense of, like, entitlement in my mind of, like, well, I'm entitled to tear him down because he did 4 things today that are really upsetting and tick me off. So anyhoo, that's what criticism is, and and I think that that's, why it's so hurtful to our relationships, because it not only is about this attack of the other, but it also doesn't keep me accountable for showing up with vulnerability and openness to connection with you.

Pat Millea [00:40:11]:
And especially an attack from somebody that is the most important person to me in the world. You know, for anyone who's in any kind of an intimate relationship, especially a marriage like that, That feels like the definition of friendly fire. Like, I thought you were on my side. Like, what what is this coming from? You know?

Kenna Millea [00:40:29]:
And Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:40:30]:
Which is why it's so confusing when we are so easily tempted to do that to our spouse too that we know how much it hurts, and yet we're willing to do it anyway for all these reasons that you've kind of listed. You know? And what I guess I hear you saying is that it that criticism as one of these 4 horsemen does not mean That it's inappropriate to ask for changes in behavior from your spouse to say, I don't I I don't want you to do that anymore. That is hurtful to me. Can you please do this a different way? That that is totally acceptable as long as it doesn't bleed into this Ad hominem attack of the person. Right?

Kenna Millea [00:41:08]:
Yeah. No. Absolutely. So you're you're right in that, what what Gottman calls a gentle startup versus a harsh startup. So harsh startup could be the, why do you always do it like that? And you're like, I I I just was loading the dishwasher. You know? Like, what the heck?

Pat Millea [00:41:24]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:41:25]:
A gentle startup would be coming up next to you and going, Oh, hey, babe. I've actually been wanting to connect with you about this. I was thinking that putting those glasses on the bottom shelf would actually make more space for these bowls. That gentle startup, is is necessary because we do wanna talk about these things that are that are, you know, annoying or inconvenient or hurtful to us. Mhmm. I I once had a client who was like, so I'm not ever allowed to say if I want something done differently, I'm like, woah. Woah. Woah.

Kenna Millea [00:41:57]:
Woah. Yes. I did not do my job right

Pat Millea [00:41:59]:
That's the message. Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:42:00]:
if that's what I conveyed to you.

Pat Millea [00:42:02]:
Just kidding.

Kenna Millea [00:42:03]:
So so, you know, Gottman says, no. We gotta work on the antidote being that gentle startup and being able to come in with this sense of I am with you And, also, even within the ranks, right, of of comrades in arms, even within there, we can give each other correction. We can make it about the objective behavioral, you know, thing at hand, instead of, you know, Pat with that Facebook thing, instead of saying to you, you know, you're such a jerk. You make me feel like such crap as your wife.

Pat Millea [00:42:34]:
You always talk to me like that. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:42:36]:
Yeah. Instead of coming at you with that criticism, to be able to say, hey. That thing you did, right, separate from who you are, that thing you did was really hurtful to me. I'm gonna ask you, like, Please don't do that anymore, and here's why that hurts me. So that gentle start up, which really requires that when I come to you, I'm not escalated, which is tricky because oftentimes, My energy to address it comes out of my anger, and that's why I come on really strong. I don't know if you noticed that, Pat, but, but it comes out of that anger because feeling mad has a lot of energy with it necessarily so because when I feel mad, I want to reset limits and boundaries. Very

Pat Millea [00:43:20]:
It's very motivating. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:43:22]:
Yeah. It's how I get soothed. And so I can come in, you know, like, just Mack truck through your living room window. And so to have a gentle start up requires that I Maybe take a beat and take a couple breaths and deescalate and make sure that I'm in that place of positive sentiment override. Because if I'm if I'm in a thinking the worst of you, not giving you the benefit of the doubt, it's gonna be so easy to go critical. Mhmm. Mhmm. Whereas if I'm in positive sentiment override and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, I am thinking the best of you.

Kenna Millea [00:44:03]:
I am assuming that we are on the same team and that you, like me, want the dishwasher loaded efficiently and quickly and completely, then, you know, then I can have that gentle start up up with you. Mhmm. So that's one piece of the antidote is that gentle start up. So, know, again, if if criticism often can kick off a conversation and head it, you know, straight down into the ground

Pat Millea [00:44:28]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:44:28]:
Gentle start up really buoys that conversation and gives it a chance to go somewhere to be productive. So when we're, you know, using that gentle start up and we're thinking about, okay, how am I going to approach this, it can be really helpful to attune to ourselves. And by that, I mean, you know, thinking back to the episode on emotions, like, noticing, like, what's going on in me and kind of asking myself, and we'll put this in the show notes, but asking myself, What is it that I'm feeling? What emotions are showing up in me? So that's the beginning. The middle section is about what? What is it that's that's creating these emotions? It's not that you're a jerk. Right? It's it's that the dishwasher

Pat Millea [00:45:13]:
You are creating these emotions. You are.

Kenna Millea [00:45:15]:
The dishwasher seems to finish its cycle, and the dishes still are dirty. So maybe it's about that. And then I need. That's the 3rd component. So I feel about what and I need. So I feel frustrated, disappointed about the way the dishwasher seems to be loaded, and doesn't get the dishes clean. I need us to talk about a different way that we can do this, come up with a different solution for all of us. Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:45:46]:
Again, it can sound so silly, like, the dishwasher, really? But it it's not about the dishwasher. Right? It's It's about communicating with each other in a way that conveys this respect and conveys this sense that like, we are in this together. You are my partner, and I'm going to collaborate with you and speak to you as such. So so that's one element of the antidote. That's the gentle start up, And that's kind of that 3 piece I feel, about what, and I need, helps us for, okay, how do I make a gentle start up statement? The 2nd piece, and you alluded to this before too, Pat, is how do I lodge a complaint? And I I can't remember if we've talked about it on here. I talk about so often in my office, and we talk about it so often in our home. But being able to speak about, what it is that that needs to be different or that I'm asking for something to be done differently. And I want it to be clear, objective, and behavioral.

Kenna Millea [00:46:49]:
And I wanna think about just putting it up on the fence post as like, hey. Just so you know, This is something that would, like, really make my life feel awesome right now, if you could consider this. And so being able to express that in a positive need. I feel like we say that to our kids all the time. Yeah. Like, the older kids yell at the toddlers and, like, stop touching that thing. And I'm like, okay. Can you tell her what you'd like her to do with that thing? Right.

Kenna Millea [00:47:14]:
Can you please go put that on my bed? And the toddler's like, oh, sure. You know, they love that task. I'll go put that on your bed. So expressing it in a positive way. And then another piece of being able to to make a complaint to your spouse, right, which is different than criticism. Complaints are about the objective behavioral issue at hand, is to address the issue singularly. So, not to wait like I did the other night until there were 4 things, and I was in that place of resentment and feeling entitled to, like, be critical of you, Pat. But as things come up to just quickly address them, so they really can be just about the thing.

Kenna Millea [00:47:54]:
Right? So it's not, about, you know, what started out as the dishwasher doesn't then become you know, I've got a bone to pick because I've come to realize that you're a really thoughtless human. Like, you really are just selfish and self concerned, and the way you load the dishwasher is just a symptom of your selfishness.

Pat Millea [00:48:10]:
Instead of just, like, plopping down a 3 inch case file on their desk that adds up to you are the worst. You know?

Kenna Millea [00:48:18]:
Yeah. But being able to just really, like, nip it in the bud and, like, Let it be just about the dishwasher. Like, if if there are other things that are bugging you that are leading you to believe that your spouse has been self concerned, okay, address those as they come up. Mhmm. But for now, with the dishwasher, address the dishwasher. And so that's another thing that I see often, again, in my own behavior with my clients, is that they let the case build, and they make these grand conclusions that are huge criticisms and so hurtful Yeah. Yeah. And lead their spouse to feeling watched, and scrutinized, and judged, and, yeah, just torn down, but to really just Name the thing.

Kenna Millea [00:48:57]:
Name the thing and be like, hey. I'm asking for change on this. Hey. This bugs me that it goes this way.

Pat Millea [00:49:02]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:49:02]:
So yeah. So that's criticism in a nutshell. Easy. I know. Right? Like, why do we even do this?

Pat Millea [00:49:08]:
Unfortunately, it is also easy to do. But it should, in theory, at least, be easy to understand And easy to begin the process of rooting out, you know, using using gentle start ups, using communication that actually Helps us to talk to each other about what's going on inside of us and not just throw stones and sling arrows about specific behaviors that Make us criticize the person themselves. You know? We should at least be able to to take that 1st step toward healthier, more joyful, just more productive Interactions between the 2 of us as well. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:49:44]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And, yeah, like we said, we'll put everything in the show notes, so you can look back and be reminded of what are these antidotes because that really is the key. Right? It's not just get rid of this behavior, but it's replace it with more helpful behavior, with behaviors and habits that move us toward who we want to be and the marriage that we desire and that we're made for and that we want.

Pat Millea [00:50:07]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:50:07]:
So it is possible.

Pat Millea [00:50:08]:
And I presume that the challenge by choice for this episode is to start using some general startups.

Kenna Millea [00:50:14]:
Yes.

Pat Millea [00:50:14]:
Get out there, tell people how you're feeling, what it's about, and what you need.

Kenna Millea [00:50:18]:
Absolutely. The gentle start up is, again, applicable in so many relationships, not just in our marriage. And so we can practice with a wide variety of people. We get opportunities all the time. We just gotta be looking for them, and we gotta be just trying it, just trying it out.

Pat Millea [00:50:34]:
Maybe it's not telling that coworker, we need to talk. Maybe it's, maybe it's something gentler than that. You know?

Kenna Millea [00:50:42]:
Absolutely. No. That's good.

Pat Millea [00:50:43]:
That's beautiful. Well, I'm excited to get out there and to not criticize you ever again.

Kenna Millea [00:50:48]:
Well okay. We're gonna leave a little room for margin of error.

Pat Millea [00:50:50]:
God willing. I'm gonna try real hard.

Kenna Millea [00:50:52]:
Yes, I appreciate where your heart is at.

Pat Millea [00:50:54]:
A for effort. And goodness knows, fallen humans as we are, we can't do that without God's help. So let's Pray as we close out this episode and ask for the grace to do it. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Amen. Heavenly Father, we love you. We praise you, and we thank you for your grace, for your goodness in our lives. Thank you for leading us into these Relationships with your sons and daughters that we treasure. Thank you for connecting us to so many people that are invaluable to you, that you love perfectly.

Pat Millea [00:51:32]:
In particular, thank you for the gift of, these beautiful relationships, marriages that you've called us to those of us who are married. And, Lord, I ask for your your will to be done, for your loving Mercy to be shown in our marriages, in our relationships. Lord, help us to be selfless. Help us to be humble. Help us to be, giving and generous in the ways that we talk to each other. We pray that you would uproot Any spirit of criticism or, or personal attack that comes up in us that we direct toward others. Help us to be gentle like you. Help us to be meek like you and to speak and act around others with your Holy Spirit animating our lives.

Pat Millea [00:52:23]:
We pray, Lord, for your healing to be on any marriages, any relationships that know That know pain and difficult and heartache and separation for your healing and restoration to be with them and for all of us who, seek to be closer to you and more connected to each other day by day. We ask, Lord, all this in your name as always. Amen.

Kenna Millea [00:52:45]:
Amen.

Pat Millea [00:52:46]:
In the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Kenna Millea [00:52:49]:
Thanks, babe, for another awesome episode and for finishing this series. The the world's longest drawn out serious effort.

Pat Millea [00:52:55]:
Woo hoo.

Kenna Millea [00:52:56]:
And thank you listeners for being with us. Again, go back and check out those other episodes if you've missed them on the first 3 horsemen that we covered, or if you just need a refresher, like I know I do. And also, check us out on social media, @thiswholelifepodcast on Instagram and Facebook, and connect with us. Let us know what you wanna hear through our website, thiswholelifepodcast .com. And until next time, God bless you.

Pat Millea [00:53:22]:
God bless you.

Kenna Millea [00:53:29]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Pat Millea [00:53:50]:
Oh, you should see all the coughs we cut out of there, friends.

Kenna Millea [00:53:55]:
Just for you.