Ep41 Shame vs. Guilt

"...and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us."
~ Romans 5:5

So much of human life is marked by shame and guilt. We feel the weight of our mistakes, sins, and failures. Shame and guilt are both difficult to feel, but are they both bad? Do they serve a purpose? Do they drive us closer to God or farther from Him?

In episode 41 of This Whole Life, Fr. Nathan LaLiberte returns for a conversation that delves deep into the themes of shame, guilt, and our personal struggles with them. Together with Pat & Kenna, they reflect on the Biblical roots of shame and guilt and the ways that they each affect our spiritual lives & relationships. The discussion also touches on the factors that contribute to shame, the antidotes to shame, and the place that guilt holds in a healthy spiritual life. Despite the weighty topics around self-talk and self-condemnation, the episode is punctuated with lighthearted banter and humor, as you are invited to explore your internal monologue and to begin overcoming shame.

Episode 41 Show Notes

Chapters:
0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
15:52: The origin & roots of shame
20:29: The ingredients of shame
24:49: The antidotes to shame
33:58: The value of guilt
42:53: Examples of shame vs. guilt
48:15: Challenge By Choice

Discussion & reflection questions:

1. How do you distinguish between shame and guilt?
2. Reflect on a time when you experienced shame and how it affected your self-image. What steps have you taken to address these emotions and move towards healing?
3. Consider the difference between guilt and shame in your own life. How do these experiences show up in your thoughts and actions? 
4. Explore the impact of internal dialogue on your emotions, behaviors, and relationships. How can recognizing and reshaping negative self-talk contribute to a healthier sense of self-worth and compassion for others?
5. When was a time that you brought a fear or humiliation into the light and shared it with another? What was the result of that process? What did you learn from it?
   
   

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

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Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 15:52 The origin & roots of shame
• 20:29 The ingredients of shame
• 24:49 The antidotes to shame
• 33:58 The value of guilt
• 42:53 Examples of shame vs. guilt
• 48:15 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:00:00]:
Shame you can't recover from because it's I'm already messed up. Guilt is a hopeful statement because, oh, I did a bad thing. I can do something better next time.

Kenna Millea [00:00:17]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, A podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm with my husband, Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader. We invite you to our kitchen table. Okay. Not literally, but but you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having Once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes, we're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes. It is not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care. So let's get talking about This Whole Life.

Pat Millea [00:01:09]:
Welcome back to This Whole Life, friends. It is such a blessing to be here with you today. It's a blessing to be alive. It's a blessing to have another great conversation about the plan that the Lord has for each of us. Yes. And it's a blessing to have that conversation with the 2 of you. Hello, Friends.

Pat Millea [00:01:26]:
And one of whom I happy happen to be married to.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:29]:
Yes. Which is not me. Yes.

Pat Millea [00:01:33]:
To clarify, Kenna, how are you?

Kenna Millea [00:01:36]:
I'm I'm good. My voice would betray otherwise, but I believe I'm on the path to healing. And I am just going to, think, clean and healthy thoughts right

Pat Millea [00:01:50]:
I was thinking about that when we this morning, the way that our podcast works is it comes out every 2 weeks. Right? So it feels like to people, you've probably been sick For about a month and a half.

Kenna Millea [00:01:58]:
A million years. You know what, guys? It feels that way too. Okay? But no. Not so. Not so.

Pat Millea [00:02:05]:
Oh, and we welcome back Father Nathan LaLiberte, welcome back friend. How are you?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:09]:
Very well. Super happy to be here, and I am completely jazzed about this topic because we've been waiting for a long time.

Kenna Millea [00:02:16]:
You've been sitting on it and being like, guys, when are we gonna record? When are we gonna record?

Pat Millea [00:02:20]:
Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:21]:
This is the moment.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:22]:
This is the moment.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:22]:
It has all come together.

Kenna Millea [00:02:23]:
And then Pat tells you it doesn't get released till 2025.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:26]:
And you're like, what the heck?

Pat Millea [00:02:29]:
I love the nature of both of your work Where both of you independently and Father you about this topic today, both of you will come to me and say, I have to start giving this topic to people. So we need to record it so I have something to point them to.

Kenna Millea [00:02:40]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:02:42]:
Self-serving.

Pat Millea [00:02:43]:
Yeah. Clients, people in confession. Yeah. Exactly. Oh my gosh. Well, it's gonna be great.

Kenna Millea [00:02:50]:
How are you?

Pat Millea [00:02:50]:
Down to it.

Kenna Millea [00:02:51]:
Nobody asks you. How are you doing?

Pat Millea [00:02:52]:
I'm fine. I'm I'm just kidding. I wanted to be dramatic.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:56]:
What a dad response. No. Don't worry about me. I'm fine. It's just

Pat Millea [00:02:59]:
I wanted to be dramatic because you were very kind and and pointed it back toward me. I'm doing very well. Thank you, love. Yeah. Appreciate it.

Kenna Millea [00:03:05]:
You're in your comfy sweatshirt.

Pat Millea [00:03:06]:
I am in my comfy Sweatshirt.

Kenna Millea [00:03:08]:
I'm still in my work clothes,

Pat Millea [00:03:08]:
That you got me for for Christmas. Because some of my favorite lyrics from one of my favorite songs.

Kenna Millea [00:03:12]:
We should link it up.

Kenna Millea [00:03:13]:
I think people will love this sweatshirt.

Pat Millea [00:03:15]:
I think so.

Kenna Millea [00:03:15]:
And just introduce people to Sarah Sparks.

Pat Millea [00:03:17]:
Exactly. And the song. Yep. Yep. We'll put it in the show notes. Guest, why don't you be our guest and kick off our highs and hards there, Padre?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:26]:
Sounds great. So, as I have done many of these, actually, I mingle the high and the hard together. Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:03:33]:
It is the way of life is like

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:34]:
life is just like it's both and. Right? So I was able to, announce to my parish, recently that, I have been allowed to take on a new assignment, come the summer months of 2024, and I'll be able to get my master's in counseling, Whoop whoop. Which is something that I have wanted to do for a long time, and I have started and stopped and failed, because my duties as a pastor, rightfully so, took precedence, and so I have been doing independent hack study work. And now I get to do it full time. And so I I am so excited, so grateful. It's like I'm just seeing, like, dreams coming true and vistas, and I just I can't wait To do more about mingling theology and spirituality and psychology, and I just I think it's they're supposed to go hand in hand, and I'm just I'm so happy, and I feel so grateful to God. So then that leads to the hard

Pat Millea [00:04:30]:
Yep.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:31]:
Is I have to leave my people. Yeah. And I'm a parish priest. You know? And I had been in a parish for 13 years. Not the same one, unfortunately. I've been moved a couple times. But you you form these relationships. You have just like you have the daily Mass crowd.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:46]:
You have you know, for hear confessions, and you're walking with people, and you see the highs and lows of life. You And so, like, to know that I won't have that is grievous, and especially just the particular of saying goodbye to Nativity right now. They've been so good to me, and I've just learned so much for them from them. And also too in a very selfish way, my my mom is in that parish as well, ironically. So unique. Unique.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:11]:
It is so unique. I know. Whenever I hear the passage of, like, you know, Jesus is preaching and his mom and his brother are outside, I'm like, totally get it, totally get that. Yeah. So it's just if there's

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:22]:
a lot of things that will change, and and and I don't know. I think that's that's the nature of change. Right? As you say hello to one thing and goodbye to another. And Yeah. And so that there is there's a bittersweetness for sure. My people have been so kind. And they're like, we hate to see ya go Father, but we know it's a dream of yours. And so I just I I I fallen even more in love with them as they've Really really tried to support me even though they're upset about the transition and having to learn a new random priest.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:53]:
And we're so eccentric and weird and, like, people have to adapt, and there's idiosyncrasies. And, like, the people nativity have really been kind. So that's mine.

Pat Millea [00:06:03]:
That is that is difficult, I'm sure, but exciting for you

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:05]:
for sure.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:06]:
It is.

Pat Millea [00:06:06]:
And mostly, I am excited because I can't wait to hear about the stories of what people do when they have a priest in their Master's degree class.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:12]:
I know.

Pat Millea [00:06:13]:
It's gonna be so fun.

Kenna Millea [00:06:15]:
Maybe I'll come. It's like a field trip. I'm sitting in on class.

Pat Millea [00:06:20]:
Can I audit right? Milady, high and hard.

Kenna Millea [00:06:23]:
Okay. So before I even go ahead and my high and hard, can I be honest with you guys something? And the irony is, of course, like, I think I came up with the idea of doing highs and hards, but I actually find sharing my hard really difficult.

Pat Millea [00:06:38]:
Would you say it's hard?

Kenna Millea [00:06:41]:
I would say it's hard. But I I find it I I find that I'm worried that I sound like I'm complaining Yeah. Or that I can't share authentically. Like, I feel like I have 1 of 2 options. I can either share something kind of, Like superficial and goofy. And then it doesn't really feel like I'm inviting people into my life and into, like, my like, in in sincerity. Or I can share something very real, and then I sound like I'm whining. So I'm just I'm just being honest that I'm really, trying to understand, like, what what is that? Like, what's the process going on in me sorting that out? So if ever you wanted to open the brain of a therapist and see all of the the gears turning. That's a little bit of what's in there.

Kenna Millea [00:07:27]:
So I'm going to lean into the discomfort And, choose authenticity and trust. Yeah. Just just let go of the fear of the judgment that I sound like I'm complaining. So with that, preface, my hard right now is seeing our kids need space. Certainly, I'm speaking for of the old ones. The younger ones, I would welcome a little bit of space.

Kenna Millea [00:08:00]:
I love you, ladies, and also a little space. But but our older kids, knowing that developmentally, what they need is space, and freedom to, express themselves and sort things out in their own way also. Like, there's not just for formula of, like, this is how you parent a 12 year old, that that each of them different temperaments, different personalities, just the uniqueness of my connection with each of them. Though is uncomfortable, and it really, I think, pulls at some, you know, mama bear overfunctioning, maybe some codependent tendencies of mine and just, like, seeing that is is challenging. And, yeah, it's it's a hard and walking with other parents who are going through similar things and just being like, Ugh. Like, hearing myself reflected in in their struggles too.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:08:58]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:08:58]:
So that is is challenging. Mhmm. Mhmm. I know how much I want them to grow and to grow up and to be autonomous and independent and self sufficient. Yep. And this is requisite to get there. It doesn't mean it it's not gonna be painful. Doesn't mean it's not gonna be, yeah, nerve wracking at times.

Pat Millea [00:09:16]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:09:17]:
And our kids aren't even doing, like, naughty things. Like, it's just it's just emotional space that they need for me. So that is the hard lately. I would say my high, Pat, we had the really awesome opportunity to work together recently and present a retreat for an organization, Which we haven't done anything like that in a long time. Right? We're we're more in the, like, psychology and mental health teaching, psychoeducation world.

Pat Millea [00:09:46]:
Teaching, workshops, skills and tools, things like that. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:09:49]:
So to actually, like, lead prayer together and, really be intentional about what helps people, encounter the Lord in a very intimate and and personal way, led you to bring your guitar along, and we were able to have Praise and worship music along with Adoration, which just like that was so normal in my twenties, like, especially working in ministry Yeah. And just like, That was a very young adult thing to do, and I just forgot how, what a beautiful conduit of prayer that setting is for me. And so just yeah. Had a lot of gratitude for the gift that that you bring our family when we can have that together, and on these in these ministry settings. But, yeah, just this experience of prayer and just thinking about, like, Man, I hope other people have something like that. Right? It doesn't need to be praise and worship for everybody, but have something like that, that just feels like, Yeah. Instant connection with the Lord and connection with community. So thank you.

Pat Millea [00:10:56]:
You're very welcome. Yeah. And thank you for sharing in a way that Did not at all sound like complaining. Thank you for your authenticity. I love it. It's great. More of that, please.

Pat Millea [00:11:04]:
Nice work.

Kenna Millea [00:11:06]:
I'll work on it.

Pat Millea [00:11:07]:
Doing my best Father Nathan impression, minus the cool beard, is

Kenna Millea [00:11:12]:
It is fierce right now.

Pat Millea [00:11:15]:
It is fierce, this is winter beard right now.

Kenna Millea [00:11:17]:
Take some social media photos because this might need to be documented.

Pat Millea [00:11:19]:
Good point. Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:11:21]:
With the flannel, it's It's just a whole, it's a whole thing.

Pat Millea [00:11:24]:
Father Lumberjack. Right?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:11:26]:
Yeah. Duluth company is right or Duluth Trading is right kitty corner of my parish.

Pat Millea [00:11:31]:
Oh, that's right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:11:32]:
I have all the best products. Gotta conform to the neighborhood. You know?

Pat Millea [00:11:36]:
So my high and hard are also related. A good friend of mine has been bugging me to listen to this podcast called The Exorcist Files for a long time. And I was listening to Catechism in a Year all last year, so I didn't have the time, and it was it was fine. But I've been listening to it the past week or for. And the high is that I I am I've always been really struck by the truths that come out of people that talk about genuine spiritual warfare. You know? Like, I remember years ago, there was an episode of Abiding Together, Kenna, that you told me about that I listened to a couple times with one of their friends who's an exorcist as well. And one of his grand reflections about getting into the training of being an exorcist was it's all true. And she goes, what do you mean it's all true? He goes, everything we believe.

Pat Millea [00:12:22]:
He's like the sacraments, the prayer, the holy salt, the rosary, the pope, The bishops. It's all true. And just seeing the way that Jesus not only triumphed on the cross, but he continues to be victorious In the lives of people who need to be liberated, it's just it's really powerful. It's great.

Kenna Millea [00:12:39]:
Wait. You mean it's all I forgot the episode. But you mean it's all true because the devil hates that, and that's what's revealed in the exorcism.

Pat Millea [00:12:45]:
Many reasons that he knows that it's true, but but that's one of them. Is that anytime something that is genuinely True, capital T, for us as Catholics is brought into an exorcism situation, it is anathema, appropriately enough to the demons. Like, the prayers of a spouse for their spouse because they're sacramental prayers if one is possessed, terrible to the demons. There was a story I listened to last week where, the exorcist asked the demon, who is your greatest nemesis in heaven? And he finally got out of this demon that it's Thomas Becket, Saint Thomas Beckett. So he called his other exorcist friend, just told him the story, and he goes, Oh, I have a 2nd class relic of Saint Thomas Becket. You want it? So he overnighted it to him. The next day, he goes into an exorcism session, holds it up against this guy's forehead.

Pat Millea [00:13:32]:
And he said it was both unnerving and pretty amazing that, like, the full fury of hell was unleashed by this demon who was just, like, barely touched on the forehead by Saint Thomas Becket's alb. You know? Just like all of the things that we love about Catholicism, it's all true. So I I love the power of that, and it's really consoling. What are you doing?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:52]:
No. Just let literally, when people listen to this podcast, they're just gonna listen to this clip, Yep. Too. Because, like, that

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:58]:
is, like, the Catholic caviar that everyone wants. It's like,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:02]:
oh my gosh. These stories are amazing. Everything else, like, whatever.

Pat Millea [00:14:05]:
Yeah. Right. Exactly.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:06]:
So for those who

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:07]:
just fast forward through highs and hard, you just missed

Pat Millea [00:14:08]:
Show's over.

Kenna Millea [00:14:11]:
The actual show.

Pat Millea [00:14:12]:
That's a good point. Oh, gosh. But, anyway, it's so good. It it's just it's it's very spooky. They dramatize some of the exorcism interactions. So it's, you know, it's it's they make it spooky on purpose, but It's really just striking in a faith way as well. Very consoling. The hard is that I this is gonna get I I could talk about this for a long time, and I won't.

Pat Millea [00:14:33]:
When I lay down at night, I have a a nightly, very "memento mori" moment. And it's Because of this podcast? No. No. No. For years and years and years and years and years. Like, when

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:44]:
Before you, Kenna. It's not you.

Pat Millea [00:14:43]:
I started when I got married. No. Years and years, like, since adolescence, lay in bed. It's quiet. There's no distractions. The lights are off. It's dark. I'm not afraid of the dark, I promise.

Pat Millea [00:14:59]:
But all these feelings of, like, oh, boy. What is the end gonna be like? It it's really it's strange. It's weird. So, that happens literally every night, and I just I've learned to, like, channel it into prayer and, like, little, you know, act of contrition moments, things like that. Right? So then add in a little exorcism podcast, and then I'm laying in the dark, and I'm, like, listening for every sound of, like, it's a demon. There's a demon in the backyard.

Kenna Millea [00:15:28]:
Oh, no.

Pat Millea [00:15:29]:
Was that shadow in the corner a demon? And, like, Father, you blessed our house. I'm sure we're fine. But It's a funny little, like, like, at night when I'm laying in bed.

Kenna Millea [00:15:39]:
I can say a spousal prayer over you, Pat. They're very powerful.

Pat Millea [00:15:42]:
I would welcome all of them. Okay. That's great. Yeah. So on that note, we get to.

Kenna Millea [00:15:49]:
Wait, this isn't about exorcisms?

Pat Millea [00:15:50]:
No. Believe it or not.

Kenna Millea [00:15:51]:
Podcast is

Pat Millea [00:15:52]:
But the pivot is that we are gonna talk about some things that the demons love. Oh. And one thing that the demons really hate.

Kenna Millea [00:16:00]:
This guy This guy is a magician.

Pat Millea [00:16:02]:
Telling you what.

Kenna Millea [00:16:02]:
Magic weaver.

Pat Millea [00:16:03]:
Not just a pretty face.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:04]:
Dream weaver.

Pat Millea [00:16:05]:
And not even not even that. So To get into the conversation today about shame and about guilt, how they are distinct from each other, what the difference would be. Father, how would you introduce us to the idea of shame and guilt and where we kind of even came up with these concepts as a human race?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:27]:
Okay. So extremely creative how you got us here. I'm so excited to be able to present on this because as Kenna and I have been, you know, tormenting you, Pat, to get this podcast recorded. It's just because we it's it is so important that we navigate through this. And shame in particular is is very, very deadly for the human psyche. It's even deadlier for the soul. And if we just look at the very beginning of creation, right, with Adam and Eve in the garden, we see the one of the techniques that the enemy uses is Shame. And it really is one of the catalysts for the downfall of human beings.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:06]:
Like, we always say, like, oh, pride is the original thing. Well, how did the serpent trick Eve and Eve in dialoguing. Mhmm. He said, Eve, you're not enough. Mhmm. Eve, there's something wrong with you. Yeah. You heard that God created you good, but, no, you're actually not.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:20]:
So you need to eat this fruit because then you'll be better than you are. Mhmm. So Eve bites onto the shame before she even bites the fruit, and the shame leads her into the fall. Right? And so what we see in that then is right after the fall happens, right, we we know, like, they go and hide away from God. They don't wanna be seen by God. Yeah. They see that they're naked, and they're ashamed of it. They cower.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:45]:
And God's like, hey. Wait. Where are you guys? And they're like, well, we're hiding. And he's like, what have you done? Now if you see, like, God doesn't speak shame. He speaks guilt. What have you done? He doesn't say, oh, you gross little creatures. Like, you know, I created you better,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:01]:
and look what you've done. Like

Pat Millea [00:18:01]:
What's wrong with you?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:03]:
You're filthy. Yeah. Like, he just says, what have you done? Because that statement, right, is it's a It's a guilt soliciting statement of I've done something wrong. I need to repent of it. And so because both shame and guilt appeared on the scene at the same time, I think humanity has had a really hard time navigating it, and we just lump it all into 1 big thing Mhmm. Which actually isn't helpful Because guilt is actually a gift to help us to strive to something better, whereas shame is solely, since the very beginning, A language that only Satan speaks.

Kenna Millea [00:18:40]:
So is it is it fair to say shame has to do with my being and guilt has to do with my doing? Yeah. So my actions, my behaviors, my choices, that's appropriate with me.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:51]:
Right n. And I I'm just gonna quote Brene Brown, I think, has, like, one of the best quotes on it. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna read it. It's it's So or say it. Sorry. Shame is a focus on self. Guilt is in our focus on behavior. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:04]:
Shame is I am bad. Guilt is I did something bad. And so this is the huge distinction. Right? Is shame you can't recover from because it's I'm already messed up. Guilt is a hopeful statement because, oh, I did a bad thing. I can do something better next time.

Pat Millea [00:19:22]:
I at the end of Genesis chapter 2, I was just looking back at it. It it makes a point of saying they were naked, and they felt no shame.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:29]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:19:30]:
Right? Because they were confident in their dignity. They were confident in their identity. They knew that they were connected to God, that they were good because they were made very good. Right? And then the very next verse is, Now the snake was the most cunning of all the wild animals. Right? So which it maybe it's no coincidence that we end the last word is no shame, And the very next word is, now the snake was the most cunning. Like, the snake knew that, so he went after that. And sure enough, I mean, he he does attack in the version of pride. Did God really say you shall not eat from any of the trees?

Pat Millea [00:20:02]:
So he's saying you can't trust him. Right? But then the the snake comes down in verse 5 and says, God knows as well that when you eat of it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like gods who know good and evil. So see, to your point, Father, he's he's pointing out the deficiency. Mhmm. You are not good enough. And, of course, they were made very good. They know that until the snake puts in just this little instance of shame into them, and it starts to change everything.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:20:28]:
Right. And and this is actually again, just to further so shame needs Three things to grow. It needs secrecy. It needs silence, and it needs judgment. So let's look at the Adam and Eve thing again. Where is Adam in all of this?

Pat Millea [00:20:45]:
Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:20:45]:
It's just Eve. So he's she she didn't say like, hey, Adam. I had this really weird conversation with this, like, strange creature in the garden, and, like, he was saying all this crazy stuff. Like, what do you think? Nope. Secrecy. No one else can know. It's only just this this thing that's going on, and there's always some sort of a judgment. Where now Eve is judging herself.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:21:06]:
So this is where shame really, really kind of flourishes in a human person, secrecy, silence, and judgment.

Pat Millea [00:21:12]:
Which strikes me as a common thread that runs through all sinful habits for all of us sinners. Right? That that at the heart of habitual sin are those 3 criteria. The the the idea of Secrecy, the idea of judgment of myself that I'll never overcome this. I'll never be better than this. That that, certainly, in the case of something like an addiction, That kind of secrecy, that kind of judgment, that kind of despair feels like it really can can grab hold. Mhmm. You know?

Kenna Millea [00:21:41]:
Well and I think too just going back to what you said, Father of, like, Shame is devoid of hope. I just I hear that when there's the judgment and there's this sense of, like, my very substance is disgusting, is defective, is in insufficient. There's no sense of hope and growth and moving forward. And, you know, as we know, that's never of the Lord. That's precisely what the devil wants us to believe, in order for us to despair And create more distance from God who is hope.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:12]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:22:12]:
So, yeah, those those are key ingredients I can imagine.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:15]:
And I I see too when people are really wrapped in shame, it's kind of like a strait jacket that gets, like, tightened tightened tightened tightened because you lose your freedom when you're experiencing shame. Like, if you, you know, look at look at little kids who, like, don't really even have self awareness. Like, they're like, like, all over the place. They don't care. Like, they're, like, dripping boogers, you know, they're just like I mean, they're probably covered in other stuff. You know? And, like, they have no qualms. Like, everything's just fine. And then suddenly, they start to become, like, the self where it's like, something's wrong with me, or I'm not cool like the other kids.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:48]:
Yeah. And then there's, like, a tightening. And then someone, like, actually shames them. And what they say, it tightens again. It tightens again. It tightens again. And then we can be full grown adults, And we're carrying around so many shameful statements, so many shoulds of what we should be doing and all these things that is like we're walking around in a strait jacket every day. And this is why God really wants to break us from shame and why I really wanna talk about it too because What is inhibiting a lot of people to enter into the realm of sanctity is they're just bound.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:21]:
So maybe it is a thing that you've shared about exorcisms. Like, there is there is a binding that happens. And so it it's not an uncommon thing when I'm hearing In confessions, if I hear someone you know, and they're saying like, oh, I've done this and done this. And you can kinda hear it, especially I'm sure as as parents, you guys can is You can hear the inflection in someone's voice if they're manifesting something with shame. Mhmm. Like, it's almost like they're like they don't they feel sorry about even speaking. Right? And so as I'm hearing someone confess their sins, and I can just sense this shame, I'll say after they're done kind of saying their things, I'll usually give something kind of a line like, you know, I I I appreciate, you know, you confessing these things. But I said, what I hear underlying all of this is just a substantial shame.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:06]:
Are you feeling a lot of shame today? And I I would say 10 out of 10. They just start either Crying or they're like, yes. Mhmm. And then my exhortation to them is, okay. So we we gotta stop More than anything, right, is I'm yeah. The simple behaviors are one thing, but we need to stop dialoguing with the devil because God does not speak the language of shame. God speaks guilt to convict us of things. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:32]:
God doesn't even know the language of shame. He would never speak it, And so you need to stop dialoguing with the devil.

Pat Millea [00:24:38]:
So with all of the shame that you two come across, obviously, in more pastoral and clinical settings and the shame that all of us come across in our lives, in our families, in ourselves. If those are the recipes, Father, to grow shame, what shame needs to thrive, what are the ways is to destroy shame.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:56]:
Yeah. Right on. I love it.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:57]:
What's what's the remedy? Right?

Pat Millea [00:24:59]:
Yep.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:59]:
So so if if secrecy, silence, and judgment cause shame, It is light, being around people, and feeling accepted that destroys shame. And, like, I I think I I think I just just even shared, like, kind of examples of this Yeah. To make it very practical because every single human has experienced shame, But, hopefully, you've also experienced some of the remedies. So, I mean, have have you guys ever experienced, like, where light has come in and suddenly the shame just begins to break apart?

Kenna Millea [00:25:31]:
Yeah. Well, actually, the story that came to my mind I don't even know if you remember this one, Pat, but, it was a long time ago, I had re I'd carried in secrecy. I'm just thinking about these ingredients. Right? I carried in secrecy A concern about, Pat, a friendship that you had with another woman that we were all friends with before we started dating. Mhmm. And, thinking about just the darkness and keeping it to myself, how it was able to grow. And it was this story that I'm not as good as her. Right? I'm not as desirable as her.

Kenna Millea [00:26:13]:
And Finally. So I forget what the circumstances were, but there was an evening where I was like, I have to tell you, like, what this heavy thing is that's just got me. Father, you talk about the strait jacket. I'm like, oh my gosh. I literally remember what it felt like. Just I was, like, backed into a corner, and I had nowhere to go. And I remember thinking to myself, like, I I guess I'll just try telling him and, like, see how this goes. And so sharing with you this concern and some of the things that had happened that had contributed to this, you know, false belief, thanks be to God, of mine, but belief nevertheless at that point and just, like, getting it out there and saying it and being able to be real about this thing that had been just pent up inside of me Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:27:03]:
And and how that, Like, it it's unreal to me how after so many years of carrying that around, how quickly I was able to then see that it really hadn't been about you anymore. It had been about me. It had been about my lack, my not enoughness, It's my you know, like Mhmm. That was a very powerful moment of taking that leap into the light. But, I mean, it really was. I don't really know much about vampires. I don't listen to exorcism stories, but, like, I imagine that, you know, just like, like, the evil one was like, don't do Like, just, like, so mad that I told you Yeah. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:27:40]:
Because it had grown, you know, just Infinitely inside of me. Mhmm. No one else knew

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:46]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:27:47]:
For all those years. Mhmm. So yeah.

Pat Millea [00:27:48]:
Which I would imagine is one of the great powers of confession is the light that shines in the confessional when people bring their sins out into the open.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:56]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:27:57]:
Yeah. You talk, Father, about being around people, And I immediately was thinking of, a situation in college. There was a guy who, started dating a girl, like, during freshman orientation for classes even began freshman year. He he lived about 4 doors down from me in the dorm that I was in, And he started dating this girl, and there was nothing wrong with either of them. She's a really great girl. He was a good guy, but he completely lost himself in this relationship to the point where they were the same major. So I if I'm exaggerating, it's not by much. Almost every weekday of the entire first 3 months of college, he would wake up before the rest of us, walk across campus and eat breakfast with her and her friends.

Pat Millea [00:28:43]:
They would go to all their engineering classes together. He would study with her and her friends. They would have dinner together. He would study with them for, and they would come back to the dorm about 11 o'clock, go to bed, and go and do the exact same thing the next day. So no exaggeration. I saw this guy probably 4 times in 3 months in the for and he lived 30 feet from me down the hall. Right? End of freshman year, they break up. And I remember the the experience of him just being locked in his room, basically.

Pat Millea [00:29:13]:
And I don't know that it was Shame necessarily. So it may just be a metaphor for shame in my head.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:29:19]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:29:19]:
But there may have actually been some legitimate shame from him. Not that there was anything necessarily wrong with the relationship. I don't know. I I I I can't speak to that. But even if both of them were great, if the relationship was great, just the shame of, like, I I can't believe that I put so much energy and time into that relationship, and I have nothing to show for it now. Like, he had no friendships with us. He had no connections outside of this 1 girl and her friends. And it really did take some friends in the section at the end of freshman year to be like, just open the door,

Pat Millea [00:29:50]:
Barge in. Hey. You're coming out with us. Let's go. Right? Like, in the tough love that maybe, you know, guys and girls probably do just in different ways, but just like you need to be you are going to, like, shrivel in this little cave of your dorm room if you're left here to fend for yourself. You gotta be around people. You gotta be reminded what Connection looks like you know?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:10]:
I do see that in a lot of youthful relationships as they lose themselves in the other person.

Pat Millea [00:30:15]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:15]:
So then when the relationship ends, they don't know who they are. Yeah. So they feel like there's something wrong with them because they mess the relationship up.

Pat Millea [00:30:22]:
Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:23]:
And they can't separate that, actually, I'm okay. It just didn't work. Yeah. But and and so and that's exactly usually the response. Right? It's just shame draws them in, and they're like, well, I'll never have another relationship. No one will understand me. You know, this is and they just They just lock in.

Pat Millea [00:30:37]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:38]:
No. I I I I know when I shared in the highs and hards about kind of pastoring. And for me, Just that kind of third aspect of blasting away shame of needing to find some sort of acceptance or feel acceptance.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:50]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:51]:
So, I'm sure both of you experienced in your own ministry of feeling like a fraud.

Kenna Millea [00:30:57]:
Gotta love impostor syndrome.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:59]:
Imposter syndrome. That's a better word for it. So when I first became a pastor, I was just like, I'm messing this up. I'm messing this up. I'm messing this up. And I I I was honestly, like, just bearing this heavy shame that, like, I I sucked. Like, I was I was I was terrible at it. The only person that sees all of that, right, is me because I'm, like, living my life.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:24]:
Mhmm. So then I'm going back home, and I'm living with other priests, and I'm hearing them talk about their work. And I'm like, oh my gosh. These guys all know what they're doing, like, and they're sharing stories. Like, how was your day?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:33]:
I'm like, oh, it was really good. Like, you know, this happened and this happened and, like, I'm a cool kid too. Like And I I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:41]:
just I I remember, like, I'd go to sleep at night, especially the 1st year of my pastorate, and I was like, I I'm doing this all wrong. So finally, Father Tony O'Neill, who I was living with at the time, I remember talking to him and just kind of saying like, hey. I think I'm messing this up at the parish, this up at the parish. And he goes, oh, dude. He goes, that's totally normal. I was like, what? What? He's like, oh, yeah. He's like, that's there's nothing wrong with you. He's like, yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:06]:
That's what happens all the time. Like, it's just a growth edge. It's fine. And I I remember just feeling like, Nate, you idiot. Like, You could have fixed this months ago. Like, you have

Kenna Millea [00:32:17]:
Did you just shame yourself?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:18]:
I I did. Yes. I did. Yes. I did.

Pat Millea [00:32:22]:
He had to get one final shame in before he gave it up.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:24]:
Exactly. You feel like the ratchet of the strait jacket.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:28]:
But it it was

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:29]:
it was one of those things like, you could've you if you would've just shared your heart with this brother who's in the same work that you're in And I know that I I'm I've heard from both of you too, like, in your parenting lives. Right? Is it just like, hey. Here's what's going on with my kid. Like, here's how I handled it. What do you think of it? They're like, oh, that's totally normal. And you're Okay. I'm accepted in the parent crew again. Like Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:51]:
Just that feeling that I belong eradicates shame.

Kenna Millea [00:32:55]:
Yeah. Normalizing that. Well and I think that social media has not helped us in this in this place of, You know, filters and putting our best face forward and, yeah, I I think that has added on to this sense of shame. Now there are these very, you know, visual measures of how I'm not adding up, how I'm not measuring up to others. And so, you know, we a whole another episode could be spent particularly on youth who have been raised with social media presence their entire lives. But I just I know as a as a 40 something year old woman, I struggle with it. So how does a 14 year old deal? You know? Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:33:36]:
It does break my heart. Because I I see it a lot with our young people, especially the school is they get so obsessed in the image of who they should be that they actually just they're not even becoming who they're supposed to be. Yeah. And who who they're who they're created to be, who like, the gifts that they have, they're forfeiting so much because they wanna be like some influencer, and I don't know. But anyways okay. So there's the shame piece. Right. Then the guilt piece.

Pat Millea [00:34:02]:
Which sounds like it's gonna get even worse, but this is the the pivot toward the bright side, actually, believe it or not.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:34:09]:
Guilt guilt is like the inverse of shame. Okay. It's it's actually really, really helpful. So here's what happens if you don't have guilt. You become a sociopath. Okay.

Kenna Millea [00:34:19]:
Self concerned, taking out everyone in your path.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:34:23]:
Because you're never wrong. Like so it's like the classic narcissist. Like, you know, like, I no. I've done I haven't done anything wrong. Like, Everything's great. Like, I'm good. I'm it's like this no. No.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:34:32]:
No. Guilt is actually really helpful to know, like, I've hurt someone, And I need to apologize. And, like, we actually are supposed to treat guilt. We're supposed to teach guilt. I'm sorry. Very Early age, right, is you hurt someone, you need to say sorry. Mhmm. Versus shaming them is, you are such a bad kid.

Pat Millea [00:34:51]:
Sure.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:34:52]:
So, like, one of them actually is a very hopeful telos. Is it saying, look. If you just say I'm sorry, everything's good again.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:00]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:00]:
And so guilt is actually allowing for the development of virtue, the development of moral encompassing. And it it's just been so fascinating too is as as you had mentioned, the social media piece, Kenna, is as society has waded more and more Into achievement based life, right, is this is what life should look like if you don't have this money, don't have this car, don't have this house, don't have these friends. Something's wrong with you.

Pat Millea [00:35:25]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:26]:
Versus how do I live the virtuous life. And I just it it gets so much more emphasis on achievement rather than actually being. And I think part of it is moving away from the reality of guilt.

Kenna Millea [00:35:39]:
Well and I what I'm thinking about particularly is 2 phrases, Catholic guilt and mom guilt. Oh. Like, those are those are just out in the culture, Alter these catchphrases and how they are, looked at as like taboo. Right? I I I don't want that. And so what I hear you saying is when we don't allow guilt to be in our awareness, then we lose sight of virtue. We lose sight of striving for excellence. So we lose sight, I would say, for striving for holiness. And so maybe just to to help, yeah, put put some more meat on that, like, I don't know.

Kenna Millea [00:36:20]:
I I guess I'm personally thinking that I'll often in my own head, my narrative, I'll think to myself, Oh, that's my mom guilt showing up, but I think it's actually my mom's shame. Mhmm. I don't think it's my mom guilt. I a a bad habit, admittedly, I will go on record as saying a bad habit I have is I have this friend who is a delightful human And just like an amazing mom. And she lives in my mind as the epitome of great mothering. And so when I have an interaction with a kid or something doesn't go well, I have this reflex oftentimes of, like, is that how so and so would do it? How Mrs. Smith would do it? And, you know, thinking originally, like, this is a a good way to, like, emulate good mom behavior. And hearing you now, I recognize, like, that is a, like, permanently lodged source of shame Yep. In my mind, of, like, I am bad because I'm not just like this person.

Kenna Millea [00:37:25]:
So so yeah. So, I mean, back to the guilt thing, but but I I think I need to maybe it sounds like semantics, but I think it's important That when that shows up in my thought pattern, in my narrative to go, I think I'm mom shaming myself

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:38]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:37:39]:
Which has a very different effect than mom guilting. Right? Because I I do want to feel experience guilt. It's a good thing it's preventing me from being a sociopath. So so to to change that verbiage in my mind, that's gonna be important.

Pat Millea [00:37:54]:
Well, it's fascinating to me that you talked about how in the beginning, guilt and shame got tied up together. So it's important but difficult for us to distinguish those 2 things. And and it makes Perfect sense to me. I think that that shame attacks the person that I am bad, and there's once Once I've been labeled and identified as bad, there's no coming back from that, you know, in my own mind. That guilt says I have done something bad. And because I am good, I deserve to do better things So that my actions are in line with my dignity. You know?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:38:31]:
So as we live in a culture, which is interesting, where we're trying to get rid of guilt. Like, we don't wanna tell people what's right or wrong Yeah. Which is kind of moral ambiguity. Shame rises because we need something to govern the conscience. Sure. So shame is actually the effective means that society has embraced as the modern kind of how do we keep people in line. So what it results in is cancel culture.

Pat Millea [00:38:54]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:38:54]:
You are gross. You are bad. You don't get to speak. You're off this platform. Bye. Yep. And so we use shame now rather than guilt, which creates a virtuous society. And so the fruits of shame, right, in in a society are high addiction levels, high depression levels, bullying, suicide, and eating disorders.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:11]:
Mhmm. Like, this is what shame produces, whereas guilt, it produces actually people who want to strive for the better. Mhmm. And so, like, to your point, even kinda you you mentioned the mom guilt and Kind of unraveled it. I've heard so many people be like, oh, you got the the Catholic guilt going on. And it's like, okay. So let let's just differentiate. If you talk about the nuns back then, And they said, you know, you are a terrible person.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:31]:
You're not gonna amount to anything. Okay. That would be Catholic shame.

Pat Millea [00:39:34]:
Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:35]:
If the nuns are saying, hey. You know what? Here's a better option, and I bet you could do this a little bit better. Let's try this a different way. That's guilt, and it's stirring the conscience to the better.

Pat Millea [00:39:45]:
The guilt is motivating in in to move toward the light. Yeah. And I keep coming back to the the this kind of scriptural image of these 2 There's characters in the Bible of Judas and Peter. You know? Both of them betrayed Jesus. Judas's betrayal was clearly more grave, so I'm not gonna they try to pretend that they're the same, but Peter did try to stand between Jesus and the crucifixion. Peter denied Jesus 3 times In the agony and and during his trial, Peter didn't do what he was called to do at the end of Jesus' life. He didn't stand with him. But where where Judas went in the direction of shame and ultimately to his own destruction because he he identified himself as bad.

Pat Millea [00:40:29]:
Peter went in the direction of guilt that he knew his sin. He was weeping as Christ was walking by with the cross, But he let that be a launching point kind of that if that was rock bottom, like people have said, put your feet down firmly and jump. You know? He He was willing to move from that place toward Christ. And to be healed and to move in a direction of goodness instead.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:52]:
Yeah. That's excellent. I like that analogy and that imagery from the Scriptures.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:56]:
You know, one of the things too just to kind of tie in Christ's ministry, you will not find Christ shaming anyone in the gospels. He'll convict. Right? As to say, you know, what you've done is wrong, but he won't say things to people like you're dirty, you're gross, Something's wrong with you. It's always calling to for. It's like, you know, go and sin no more. Or, you know, like, Why why why do you, you know, pick the, splinter out of your brother's eye and forget the log? Like, it's these are, like, convictions within the heart. And so I think this is what we wanna actually be good at as Christians is even in our language when we speak, especially if you're a parent or a grandparent, just to really make sure that, like, when you are offering corrections, that it's not shame based, but actually guilt based. And to make a very conscious to say, okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:41:48]:
How can I correct this person giving them hope and clear direction rather than saying you're gross, you're bad, you're disgusting.

Pat Millea [00:41:57]:
And I I even when Jesus uses really harsh words for, like, the scribes and the Pharisees. Right? You are whitewashed tombs. He he's saying it's still with that edge of behavior. Right? You tie up heavy burdens on people, and you don't lift a finger to move them. Right? So it's not that You are terrible, and you are beyond redemption. It's you you your actions do not match your call.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:24]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:42:24]:
So I'm gonna identify your actions. I'm gonna convict you in that. And, hopefully, that's the motivator that it ought to be when we can embrace it in humility. You know?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:33]:
And that that exact verbiage that you use are the whitewashed tombs. It's to wake them up. Yeah. It's like, hey, guys. You think you look all good on the outside? There's something wrong on the inside. You gotta look at that. Mhmm. So, like, even that statement, it's not, Like, something to shame them.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:48]:
It's literally to wake them up to some sort of a conscious decision.

Pat Millea [00:42:52]:
And I think all the time about ways that we try, God willing, to speak to our kids and to use language that builds up their sense of self and their competence in their own dignity. And when it's appropriate and necessary to identify actions of theirs that need to be better because they were made to be better. So I'll I'll try in my better days, not every day, but in my better days, I'll say things like, you know, buddy, you are good. God made you good, And you deserve to have your actions match the goodness that's in your heart, things like that. You know? And that's

Kenna Millea [00:43:28]:
Well that's what's so incensing. Right? As a parent, when our kids misbehave, when they haul off and slug each other in the eye, it's like that is not reflective of who you are made to be. It's because it that isn't in alignment. Your actions aren't in alignment with your very dignity. Like, that's why this is so upsetting. If you were made to be a base animal, then I would expect you to haul off and just slug your brother in the eye. But but, yeah, I think that is On our best days, like, the way we can speak to each other, I think it's really challenging, guys, to talk to ourselves in that way. Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:44:04]:
I I get to be, you know, in in the mind and in the internal dialogue of a lot of people, and it is, we are we are critical. We are tough to please, and, I think the hope that I'm getting out of this conversation, is just to to recognize that, like, that is not how the for motivates. It's not what he desires me to be hearing, And that there's actually something that I can be doing, to help uproot that voice, which is maybe a good, turning the corner into the challenge by choice, Father. But but I'm just I'm thinking about that that, like, there is, you know, lots I can do about the way I speak to others, being mindful to, really speak about guilt with my children or those who, you know, I supervise. But, man, it's gonna be that internal change that's gonna be tough.

Pat Millea [00:44:59]:
Yeah. When I think about even just in kind of the self talk that we that we give ourselves, the way that we think and and speak toward ourselves. I, character flaw, I put it in, like, athletic terms very quickly. Right? That there there's a big difference between a good coach and a bad coach. Mhmm. And from peewee football all the way up into to professional sports leagues, NBA, NFL, Major League Baseball, whatever, bad coaches will shame their players, and they'll humiliate them in front of their team. They will point out their flaws, And they'll they they won't identify the action.

Pat Millea [00:45:34]:
They'll say, what is wrong with you? What you I can't why can't you do any you you never do anything right. You know? And there are stories like rife throughout even, again, grown men and women in professional sports leagues who the coach, quote, unquote, loses the team because they they they're belittling. They're humiliating. They're shaming. And the team says, well, Screw you. I'm not following you. You're not a leader. I'm not gonna play for you.

Pat Millea [00:46:00]:
I'm not gonna work hard for you. I'm not motivated at all. You know? On the flip side, great coaches know exactly how to get the best out of their players. And the best they can get out of their players is by motivating them, by showing them you are not doing well enough here. You can do better. It it's not about you as a person, but you can do better than this. I'm gonna give you everything I can to help you do better. And I'm gonna point out when you fall short of that, but it's to help you excel, not to demean you in front of other people.

Pat Millea [00:46:30]:
There was a a video a a couple weeks ago, I think, of, Mike McCarthy, who's the head coach of the Miami Dolphins right now, in a Monday morning meeting with his team. So they had just played a game on Sunday, and they were doing the the feared film breakdown of let's get better, which means let's find all the problems, Right from Sunday's game. And it was this fascinating thing. He's a he's a 1st year head coach. He's energetic. He's young. He's really he seems to be really authentic from what I can see In videos and things. And there's this just raw footage of this team meeting.

Pat Millea [00:47:03]:
And what he knows he has to do is call out the quarterback of the Dolphins who missed a read, a totally open wide receiver, didn't even look his way. And what he starts with is a 30 second kind of hammering on his own mistakes as a head coach in that play. So he says literally, like, that was a trash play call, you guys. I put you in a bad spot. All of us need to do better. I need to it starts with me as your coach. And then he eventually gets to basically a paraphrasing. And by the way, quarterback, if you could throw it to the open guy, that'd be that'd be really nice, you know?

Pat Millea [00:47:37]:
But but he's he first of all, he's he's Fine with accountability. He's good with humility that it's not just your problem. It's our problem. We're a part of a team. And second of all, I'm not here to demean you, to belittle you. I'm here to encourage you to be better than maybe even you think you can be because I see the good in you that maybe you don't even see. So, you know, I with apologies to you, Father Nathan, who I've been told maybe doesn't have much of a sports background, That's where my mind goes. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:05]:
No. That's fine. That's fine. It's valid. It's good. It's illustrative, and I appreciate it. I cannot relate to any of those persons that you spoke about, but it's okay. So are you okay if we do the challenge by choice? Because I just I think that, I just wanna summarize those things.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:20]:
So

Pat Millea [00:48:20]:
Let's get practical. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:21]:
I I really want I really want to challenge the listener to ask the question, who are you dialoguing with? Who are you speaking with? And because shame is oftentimes a dialoguing with the devil, right, is are you kind of saying, like, I'm bad. I'm gross. There's something wrong with me. Are you dialoguing with maybe someone from the past? Or even as you had given that example Kenna of like this other person who's, you know, a mom who's has literally said nothing to you about your motherhood, but you've got in your mind of, like, this person is constantly I'm talking with them. Am I good enough? Am I this enough? And just to say, who are you speaking with? Because if you're speaking with God, what he's going to say is, Yeah. You made some mistakes. Like, what do you wanna do tomorrow? Like, hey. I I gave you I gave you this day, and Please, God.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:13]:
You know, there's another one, and let's let's see what happens tomorrow. So just to really kind of make that pivot internally to say who am I dialoguing with It's oftentimes one of the best ways to start to engage the battle between shame and guilt. And so that would be my challenge.

Pat Millea [00:49:28]:
It's one particular challenge that is convicting to me because I can think of about 3 times a day when I make a silly mistake. And I, like, I'll drop something because I tried to carry too many things. And the first word in my brain is you idiot. What the blank is wrong with you?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:43]:
Yep.

Pat Millea [00:49:44]:
What the you moron. Just like All kinds of terrible shaming self conversation that doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't help me do better next time. It just makes me feel like crap in the moment. You know? It just yeah. So that's really concrete for me. I appreciate that.

Pat Millea [00:50:01]:
Yeah. Gotcha. Father, would you like to pray for us, please, and send us off to to live this life of guilt.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:08]:
I would love to. I just love being on this podcast with you two.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:11]:
Awesome. Alright.

Kenna Millea [00:50:13]:
Is it because the snacks are really great?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:15]:
Yeah, cause the snacks are super great.

Kenna Millea [00:50:16]:
Because I was in charge of snacks tonight.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:17]:
Should should I give them a run time of what you picked? I'm gonna, I'm gonna. Not for shame, but just to like, share. Arugula, blueberries.

Kenna Millea [00:50:28]:
A salad kit, man. It's such, I didn't just hand you arugula.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:29]:
Arugula, blueberries, chips, guacamole, cheese, and salami.

Kenna Millea [00:50:36]:
I think that sounds great.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:37]:
It was all wonderful.

Pat Millea [00:50:38]:
I'll be in charge next time.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:39]:
It was it was all wonderful.

Kenna Millea [00:50:41]:
And then Pat brought a beer.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:42]:
And then but it was it was just I saw it come on. I'm like, I love it. It's just like we're so free. Like, you're not presenting anything. You're just being you, which is I just love.

Pat Millea [00:50:52]:
Authentic self.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:53]:
Yes. In the name

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:54]:
of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, amen. Amen. Heavenly Father, in the beginning, You created us, and you called us good. And we repent of any voice that would take away from your voice. May your voice resound deep within our mind, our heart, and our soul to speak those words on the very day of creation that we are good. Let us fight for your voice that we may allow it to conquer the evils of this world, and that we may be truly reject The enemy and his advances in our lives and in our families. Mother Mary, we ask for your powerful intercession to stamp upon the head of that serpent that he may no longer speak into our ears the lies that lead us away from our true vocations. We ask all this through Christ our Lord. Amen.

Pat Millea [00:51:45]:
Amen.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:46]:
Amen. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Kenna Millea [00:51:48]:
Amen. Thank you, gentlemen. As always, such a gift. Truly such a gift to, just, yeah, be my whole self with you and, to to share this with our listening community. So to you, our listeners, thanks again for staying with us, for sticking to the end of this episode. Would you be so kind as to subscribe if you haven't already to rate and review us, let us know, what benefit this is. I do pray that it is a benefit to you And, that you would help us to understand how we can serve you better through our website, thiswholelifepodcast.com, or through social media, @thiswholelifepodcast. And until next time, God bless you.

Pat Millea [00:52:37]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Kenna Millea [00:52:58]:
Wait. Sorry. Real quick. Sorry. Where where is the outline that you made?

Pat Millea [00:53:03]:
In the podcast thing

Kenna Millea [00:53:04]:
Okay. Thank you.

Pat Millea [00:53:04]:
Thing. Oh my gosh. I had, like, the breath there

Kenna Millea [00:53:08]:
are no just

Pat Millea [00:53:09]:
The breath's gotten right here and you spoke.

Kenna Millea [00:53:14]:
Okay.

Pat Millea [00:53:15]:
Alright. Here we go.