Ep42 Your Body is a Gift: Body Image & Eating Disorders w/ Megan Lawrence, LAMFT

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?"
~ 1 Corinthians 6:19

"Why isn't my body different?"
"Why did God give me this particular body?"
"What if I feel frustrated by, or even hate, my own body?"

All of us have feelings & questions about the bodies that God has given us, and sometimes those feelings can become deep experiences of sadness, disgust, or shame; especially in a culture that idolizes only some appearances & body types. In this episode of This Whole Life, Kenna invites Megan Lawrence, LAMFT in that tender and crucial conversation to help shed light on the dark places of struggles with body image. Drawing on Megan's personal and clinical experience with eating disorders, they reflect on the meaning and purpose of the human body as God's gift for the good of his children. And informed by St. John Paul II's Theology of the Body, they propose a stance of non-judgment as a path toward acceptance of your body as the beautiful and definitive gift that it is.

Megan is a Licensed Associate Marriage and Family Therapist who holds a Master's Degree in Marriage and Family Therapy from the University of Nebraska - Lincoln.  Megan approaches therapy through an attachment-based, trauma-informed lens, and is trained in EMDR.  She has specific experience within eating disorder recovery. Megan received bachelor degrees in Studio Art, Printmaking and Drawing, and Art History from Drake University.  While serving four years as a missionary with the Fellowship of Catholic University Students (FOCUS), Megan's passion deepened for accompanying others on their healing journey. She enjoys exploring art museums, thrift stores, and the outdoors.

Episode 42 Show Notes

If you or someone you love may be struggling with an eating disorder, please reach out for support. The National Eating Disorders Association is a great place to start.

Chapters:
0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
10:45: Understanding body image & eating disorders
26:36: The power of the Theology of the Body
39:15: Gratitude for the body & acceptance of the body
50:08: Challenge By Choice

Questions for Reflection & Discussion:

1. What is one thing that is sticking with you from this episode?
2. What feelings do you have about discussing body image & your own body?
3. When have you had a difficult time seeing your body as a good & valuable gift from God? What experiences led to those difficulties?
4. Do you see the value of your body in its appearance (the way it looks), in its function (in what it can do), or as a gift (the simple fact that God gave it to you)?
5. How does God see & value your body? What do you imagine God wants you to know about your body?

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

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Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 10:45 Understanding body image & eating disorders
• 26:36 The power of the Theology of the Body
• 39:15 Gratitude for the body & acceptance of the body
• 50:08 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Megan Lawrence [00:00:00]:
But I once was bringing, kind of my own body image pieces to confession. And, yeah, I was really blessed by the response of a priest expressing, this is the body that God has chosen to make you a saint in.

Kenna Millea [00:00:20]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast along with my husband, Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader. We invite you to our kitchen table. Okay. Not literally. But you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes. We're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes. It's not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care.

Kenna Millea [00:01:00]:
So let's get talking about this whole life. Hey, everyone. I'm so excited to share today's episode with you. It's my interview with my colleague, Megan Lawrence, a licensed associate marriage and family therapist, actually with us at the Martin Center For Integration in Minnesota. Megan received her bachelor degree in studio art, printmaking and drawing, and art history from Drake University, then went on to serve 4 years as a missionary with Focus, on college campuses. Megan went to the University of Nebraska Lincoln to pursue her master's in science in marriage and family therapy. And Megan is such a gift to us at the MCI, and I'm excited to share her with you today. So welcome, Megan

Kenna Millea [00:01:53]:
To our new podcast location.

Megan Lawrence [00:01:55]:
Thank you.

Kenna Millea [00:01:56]:
Megan came in here and she was like, oh. If you could see there are blankets hanging to try and buffer sound. There's artwork canvases leaned up against walls. It is it is something to be here.

Megan Lawrence [00:02:09]:
In progress.

Kenna Millea [00:01:53]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, Megan, we are actually the studio is in the MCI's office, our clinical office, which you and I roam these halls most days of this week. But it's really quiet here today. Especially, there's been some construction at the end of the hallway. So I'm hoping that we can catch the workers on their break and, and, yeah, be without disruption today. But it's so good to be with you.

Megan Lawrence [00:02:39]:
Thank you. It's a gift to be here. I'm really grateful. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:02:42]:
Yeah. So, to warm us up and also as a way for our listeners to get to know you, we share a high and hard at the beginning. So do you have something? Are you ready to roll?

Megan Lawrence [00:02:56]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:02:57]:
Okay. Sweet. Bring it on.

Megan Lawrence [00:02:59]:
I was thinking about this a little bit. The hard that was coming to my mind as I was reflecting, it's not, it's my hardest hard for sure, but it has been a unique hard of this winter. Those of you who are listening in Minnesota will know that it has been a very abnormal winter for us. It's been like

Kenna Millea [00:03:19]:
So weird.

Megan Lawrence [00:03:20]:
50 degrees for the last 3 weeks, which is, yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:03:24]:
And before that, it was, like, negative 15 for a week. I just wanna be clear. We're still paying our dues. Sorry. Go ahead.

Megan Lawrence [00:03:29]:
No. It's true. And so my hard is not that it has, the weather has been different than normal. It has been beautiful. You can't be mad at 50 degrees. The hard has been that it hasn't been snowing. I really, really love snow. It's, yeah, something that I find tremendously beautiful, really peaceful, and just like a way that I receive a lot of love from the Lord.

Megan Lawrence [00:03:51]:
And, yeah. So there's been kind of a unique poverty there for me this year, but it's also been a way that he's been expanding my awareness of his of his love. So, yeah. That's

Kenna Millea [00:04:03]:
Even outside of the snow. Right. Which I would say most people, Pat included, would say that snow is is an obstacle to experiencing God's love sometimes. Yeah. So this is helpful. This is helpful to see there are other perspectives and that you live in Minnesota on purpose. Like, this is a choice you have made.

Megan Lawrence [00:04:22]:
I do really love winter a lot. So I've had friends who are sending me, you know, photos of their snowy backyard. So it's a delight to know that other people get to experience it.

Kenna Millea [00:04:32]:
So it is snowing in other places Yeah. Just not here? Okay. Cool.

Megan Lawrence [00:04:35]:
People who live very closely to us, actually. Okay. So it's been pretty unique. Yeah. So not not the hardest hard, but a a kind of internal place that the Lord has been present. And then in terms of my high, this hasn't, occurred yet but I'm anticipating it in the next couple weeks. In the fall I started going to figure drawing sessions.

Megan Lawrence [00:04:59]:
There's a couple places in the cities that, will have a model present and people can come and draw. And, so I was going in the for. I, like, took a break and have now restarted. So I'm looking forward to getting to go back again.

Kenna Millea [00:05:11]:
Very, very cool. Which, makes sense to me then. Megan, we had asked you to create some artwork for a holy card that we offered to our clients this Christmas. And you did a beautiful painting of the Madonna and Child. And so I'm imagining you were drawing upon, a lot of your skills from that and it came out beautifully. Maybe we should link that up too. Maybe we can find a way to put the image up on the podcast, show notes because it really was incredible.

Megan Lawrence [00:05:40]:
It was a gift to be able to do that. Thank you.

Kenna Millea [00:05:43]:
Very, very cool. Okay. So my high and hard, I will start with my hard, which has been maybe, you know, connected, not maybe. For sure connected to this episode, Megan. And just knowing that you and I are gonna be talking about, body awareness, body acceptance, but gratitude of our bodies. And just being more, like, honest and and reflective about my relationship with my body. And I just I think because I have never formally experienced an eating disorder, you know, anything like that, I was like, oh, yeah. I'm good.

Kenna Millea [00:06:26]:
I'm good. I'm good. And as I began to prepare for today and look over some of the things that you had shared ahead of time of, like, hey, let's talk about these things for I wanna share this with listeners, I was like, oh, man. Like, there may be more healing there than I realized. And I think particularly, you know, coming out of many years of bearing children and nursing babies and, you know, getting up in the middle of the night with babies and what have you, like, there's a way in which, yeah. And this is maybe even getting into the episode, but like a way in which, I haven't been as expressive of my thanks to my body and really given myself the space to consider, like, what how it has served me and and what a gift that is. So just the hard of, like, man, I, like, looked in that corner and there's, like, some work to do, and and there's always work. But, but, yeah, that kind of took me by surprise.

Kenna Millea [00:07:16]:
I'm I'm grateful. I'm grateful that this episode is prompting me, and we hope that's what it's doing for our listeners too, prompting them to consider, how how they might grow and heal in this regard. But, yeah, took me by surprise. Mhmm. So there's that. A little a little teaser for you. And then I would say my high is, so, Megan, I'm not sure if you're aware, but Pat is in the custom of reading aloud to our oldest kids.

Kenna Millea [00:07:48]:
Mainly mainly the oldest too because he's done it with them for so long. The the younger boys are starting to get into it. The girls, the toddler girls are just too squirrelly still. They can hardly make it through a picture book. But, but he has like read all the Harry Potters with well, not all. I think they haven't read the 7th yet. But, 6 of the Harry Potters, the Narnia series, you know, just these books that Pat, like, really values and and wants to be present to talk through with him. And, so I chose, someone reminded me the other day of the book, The Boys in the Boat.

Kenna Millea [00:08:20]:
Do you know this book?

Megan Lawrence [00:08:21]:
Yeah. I haven't read it, but I am familiar with it.

Kenna Millea [00:08:23]:
Okay. Have you seen the movie? I just found out that it's a movie too.

Megan Lawrence [00:08:26]:
It is. I haven't seen it yet. No.

Kenna Millea [00:08:27]:
Okay. So, I do not think of myself as an athlete. And I was a rower in high school. And so it's kind of fun because my like, I'm sharing something about myself, like, through this book. So like we read one of the first sections and then my our my kids are like our oldest 2 are like, I don't understand what they're talking about when it comes to rowing because it's just not it's not like basketball or football or baseball that you just observe, like walking through life as an American. And so I was, like, let's look up some YouTube videos. And so watched some videos on technique and then watched some videos from the coxswain's view of one of the most prestigious races that we hold here, a collegiate race here in America. And so, they were just like, woah, you know, and like, mind blown.

Kenna Millea [00:09:12]:
And, and it's just been so fun, number 1, to have that quality time with them. But number 2, to, like, be connected with something in myself that, like I mean, high school was a long time ago for me. It's more than half my life ago. And so, to to be reconnected and to, like, find this energy, and there's a bit of nostalgia, and also maybe connected to the body, like, woah, like, that's amazing that my body did that. The book actually says like, comes out and says that it is, more difficult than any other sport out there. Like, the intensity and the compactness that the, like, the effort occurs in. And so my kids were just like, man, that's amazing. I'm like, yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:09:57]:
That is amazing. Not that I was like an Olympic athlete level at it, but, but it's just been really fun. So that's been an unexpected little gift this winter is to read with them.

Megan Lawrence [00:10:08]:
That's really lovely. Yeah. I have a friend who's reading it right now.

Kenna Millea [00:10:10]:
Do you? Okay. Do you plan to read it?

Megan Lawrence [00:10:12]:
I'm hopeful to. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:10:13]:
Yeah. It's I mean, it's challenging. I mean, it takes place for, you know, on the heels of the Great Depression and then leading into World War 2. And so, there's a lot that are, my daughter was saying. She was talking to friends at school about it, which is really cool, but she's like, you guys, his life, like the main character, his life was so hard and so sad. And I was like, yeah. Like, we don't maybe talk about this enough because of, you know, we live in a a place of privilege. So, I'd be curious if if you read it, what you'll think.

Megan Lawrence [00:10:43]:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Kenna Millea [00:10:44]:
Yeah. So let's turn the corner into our topic today. And, you know, oftentimes, Megan, as is the case in this situation, when we invite someone on to be a guest on the podcast, we say to you like, hey, what do you want to talk about? What is it that you would like to share with our listeners? What do you think would be of value? So maybe I'm just gonna hand it over to you and kind of break open. What is it you wanted to share you know, discuss today? And then maybe also, what stirred this in you that you thought this would be of value for This Whole Life listeners?

Megan Lawrence [00:11:20]:
Absolutely. The topic that we're gonna step into, as you mentioned earlier today, is, around body acceptance and body awareness and this experience of receptivity, this posture of receptivity towards our bodies. And, it's a really, I think important topic to me, an important space in my own, like, journey of healing both personally and professionally. And, yeah, it's just, it's pretty, pretty close to my heart. In terms of my personal experience, I am one of 3 siblings, I am one of 3 siblings, one of whom is my twin. And, when we were in high school, she experienced the onset of an eating disorder and kind of that journey of recovery is one that that existed kind of many years beyond that. But it was it was probably my first experience at least, like, in close proximity with mental health. And, yeah, and is one that as I've come to explore and understand my own story, was impactful.

Megan Lawrence [00:12:38]:
And so I think we'll get into to those pieces a little bit more later. And then additionally, professionally, so I've I've been here with the Martin Center for, a little over a year. Yeah. Yep. And prior to that, I was working in a residential treatment center for adolescents in eating disorder recovery. And, yeah. I had a a really profound experience working there. It was, yeah, a tremendous gift to my own healing and, yeah, profound is kind of the word that kind of continues to come to my mind I think because it's such difficult and raw work.

Megan Lawrence [00:13:21]:
Yeah. And also, just an amazing witness to the possibility of healing, the resilience and wisdom of the body, and so many other things. So, yeah, it was just it's an an experience that I have a lot of gratitude for. Yeah. I'm I'm certainly better for getting to walk with each of those, individuals and, yeah, has has impacted me a lot.

Kenna Millea [00:13:49]:
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, maybe, Megan, we could start with that earliest encounter with mental health and with eating disorder that came about in your own family of origin with your sister. And, can you would you be willing like, it's it's such a privilege to be able to hear from you and hear your perspective, your story. But what was that like as you look back and reflect? What stands out to you? Maybe lessons learned or perspectives gained from your vantage point within that situation.

Megan Lawrence [00:14:23]:
Mhmm. In those experiences, I think as I look back now, it was something that kind of all of us were new to. It wasn't something that we had had experiences with before. We were certainly, like, learning within the process of it. And, yeah, I think something I learned from that experience and and also my work in accompanying people in recovery is that the healing of excuse me, the the journey of healing, the journey of recovery is not linear. Yeah. It's not linear and that that's not a reflection on the person pursuing it. It's it's the reality of of humanity and and healing.

Megan Lawrence [00:15:11]:
Yeah. And I think personally with, the person who was experiencing the eating disorder being, my twin. Mhmm. There yeah, were a lot of different layers that were present. And one of the things that I noticed in terms of the the narrative that I took on in terms of my own body was, a fear that it was facilitating or, like, encouraging the, like, eating disorder behaviors, that it was an example or a witness of something my sister didn't want to look like. If that makes sense.

Kenna Millea [00:15:55]:
Yeah.

Megan Lawrence [00:15:57]:
Yeah, today I know more about eating disorders. I know more about my own story. I know more about the protectors in me that were showing up in that space. Right? That, that we're trying to make sense of witnessing somebody I love going through something really difficult and really painful and, like, the suffering of that fight. Mhmm. Yeah. And so there's there's a lot of, like, work that's occurred in that in that space to be in a place of understanding that differently today. But that was, yeah, a narrative that, like, really impacted the story that I was holding about my body, like, in my life.

Megan Lawrence [00:16:41]:
You know? The the the fear that it it was hurting somebody that I loved. Yeah. Does that make sense?

Kenna Millea [00:16:47]:
Yeah. Well and I and I imagine and you and I have had the privilege of talking about a sense of responsibility that can show up in all of our lives in our different roles, but that's a word that comes to mind. Like, am I responsible for or connected to, and in such an intimate way? One of our you know, we have twin daughters, and one of our daughters asked the other day if there will ever be a time that she's not a twin. Mhmm. And, it struck me as, like, oh, that is fascinating. Like, no. Like, there is this link. There is this way that that you are uniquely different than any of the other kids in our family.

Kenna Millea [00:17:25]:
And and so in a way that I can't understand even as the mom, of what that bond is like, and so what that experience could have been like for you to even just be peers, you know, at a similar developmental stage and age and and all of that. Mhmm. So thank you.

Megan Lawrence [00:17:44]:
Yeah. And maybe it's important also to share that, like, my family, my sister, like, nobody was verbally communicating this to me or even yeah. Peers is maybe a different story, but that's not necessarily needed to, yeah, to go into here.

Kenna Millea [00:17:59]:
What I think, resonated with me was when you mentioned a moment ago, Megan, like, this was part of how my system made sense of what was going on. You know, that we are meaning making machines, and even if the meaning we take out of it for the responsibility we put on ourselves or the blame and the shame we put on ourselves, like, even if that's maladaptive and unhelpful, ultimately, we're just looking for things to make sense because that's where we find security and stability and safety. So I don't know if that's maybe part of what you're hinting at.

Megan Lawrence [00:18:31]:
Correct. Yes. Yeah. There weren't kind of people in my support network that were speaking or affirming this about my body. It was, yeah, a way that I was trying to make sense of something that that I didn't understand. Yeah. Which I I now have more awareness of today.

Kenna Millea [00:18:50]:
Well and I also think too, Megan, that you are really pointing at the systemic nature of mental health and the impact that a mental health disorder has, not just on the person who receives the formal diagnosis, but all those around them. The ways that it touches them and impacts their perception of reality. So I'm wondering, I we're not making this whole episode about eating disorders, but I do think that we have this privilege as you and I are, you know, trained in marriage and family therapy, and understand mental health, to just talk a little bit. Would that be okay if we just dip into a little bit around eating disorders? I imagine there are folks who are listening, who perhaps actively, you know, know that this is actively happening for themselves or for someone in their family and this could be helpful. Or for those who are listening and and there's maybe a curiosity or something doesn't seem right. And so maybe sharing some more clinical, technical information could be helpful. So, you know, in my mind, I'm thinking about kind of, I referenced earlier, right, in my heart that this awareness of, like, I know I've never had a diagnosable eating disorder. And also, I think I'm uncovering like, oh, I got some body image stuff that that deserves some healing and some light around it.

Kenna Millea [00:20:05]:
Can you talk to us a little bit about the difference and the distinction and just how you see that clinically, particularly?

Megan Lawrence [00:20:11]:
Yes. Absolutely. I think you are bringing up a really good, point here. Often there is ways that we see overlap in these two places. Experiencing obstacles or barriers in terms of how we relate with our body does not necessarily mean that I have an eating disorder. However, there can also be, and often are, experiences of those obstacles within the experience of an eating disorder. There are a variety of eating disorders and a handful of symptoms that we would be assessing for. I can share a few of those.

Megan Lawrence [00:20:55]:
Binge eating, so that would mean food or nutrition intake without a sense of control. Purging, the act of, like, purging or eliminating food or nutrition intake from the body, restriction, of food or nutrition intake, either kind of on a general or a specific level. And, another one that often we would commonly see is, engaging in excessive or compulsive, like, movement or activity. And I think when it comes to considering an eating disorder, we would be exploring patterns of engaging in these behaviors, and it would also be possible, to see a combination of these symptoms, such as a binge purge cycle or a binge restrict cycle. Body image can certainly play a role in the expression of these behaviors and it isn't uncommon for us to see concern or distress around body image in connection with eating disorder behaviors. But body image is not the only or, like, primary symptom, that we are often looking for in diagnosing an eating disorder.

Kenna Millea [00:22:05]:
So so for thinking about maybe some of the ways this shows up because I know some of these were new to me when I stepped into the field of mental health. So I think of, you know, food restriction or anorexia is, like, the classic, like, what most people would think of first, binging and purging. Can you explain a little bit of what maybe some of the symptoms or signs of that would be?

Megan Lawrence [00:22:26]:
Mhmm. A an experience of binging would be consuming kind of of without the feeling of control. That it's not something does that make sense?

Kenna Millea [00:22:41]:
So not being mindful of, like, I'm eating till I'm full and satisfied, but eating without connecting to my body? Correct.

Megan Lawrence [00:22:49]:
Yeah. Yes. Eating? Sometimes it could it could fall into that category. Absolutely. And when we would be looking at binging behaviors, what would be being considered there is, kind of the experience of of eating and not feeling in control of that action.

Kenna Millea [00:23:10]:
Okay.

Megan Lawrence [00:23:10]:
Or, kind of seeking to kind of fill a need through through eating. Does that make sense?

Kenna Millea [00:23:18]:
Mhmm.

Megan Lawrence [00:23:19]:
A purging behavior would be, yeah, purging. Eliminating. Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:23:26]:
Yep. Getting rid of.

Megan Lawrence [00:23:27]:
Mhmm. And often I shouldn't say often, actually. A purging behavior would be, the, yeah, the elimination or getting rid of, of nutrition or or or food fuel. And, it's not uncommon that we would see an overlap in these behaviors. It's possible that somebody could be experiencing a binge and restrict cycle, a binge and purge cycle, that they kind of develop a pattern of relying upon each other. Does that make sense, those behaviors?

Kenna Millea [00:24:02]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, that just seems to be the theme, like overlap, connection. Like, I'm also thinking about related to you mentioned energy output. Mhmm. So exercise. I know that was really new to me when I was in school of learning that there can be, you know, ways in which, an individual is expressing an eating disorder through over exercise, through their movement. Do you wanna say more about that?

Megan Lawrence [00:24:27]:
Yeah. Absolutely. In terms of, like, assessing what is overexercise, I think, like, seeking, yeah, medical input would be valuable there. But, usually, in terms of an eating disorder, I would say most often the way that it's showing up is to, challenge the nutritional input or to offset the nutritional input. Mhmm. Yeah. We're not seeking to have the nutritional input be supporting the energy that we're putting out. Does that make sense?

Kenna Millea [00:25:00]:
Yeah. Yeah. Those are helpful ways to, like, orient things in relation to each other. So my nutritional input related to my exercise. Like, I don't know. Even just in my own mind, I'm, like, thinking, like, okay. Like, this is helpful even in talking with my kids and in helping to speak to them as they become more independent and manage, their own, you know, dietary needs and input. They're away from us more.

Kenna Millea [00:25:25]:
They're, you know, making more decisions with friends and at the vending machine at school and, you know, all these kinds of things. So this is a helpful, you know, way to to think about that. And I and I wanna say, you know, first of all, Megan, like, we do not consider you an expert in eating disorders. We are grateful, for what you bring here at the MCI in terms of your background, in working in residential recovery and treatment and certainly in your own personal story. But, but just, yeah, wanted to, offer a little bit of of what we do look for as clinicians. And then to encourage our listeners, you know, if any of that is of question or concern for you or someone you love, get an assessment. You know, through whether it's your primary care doc or through a a specialized eating disorder clinic or dietitian. There are just so many professionals that can help to shed light.

Kenna Millea [00:26:15]:
And, you know, there it's a spectrum. Right? It's, sometimes people are on on the edge and skirting with, with a diagnosis. And so it can just be helpful to get some professional eyeballs on you to consider, hey. Do I need support on this? Do I need treatment for this? So, you know, another thing that we haven't actually mentioned yet, Megan, but I'm aware of is your own training in the Theology of the Body, which by the way, as I was thinking about this, isn't that how you found out about the Martin Center? Was it at a Theology of the Body conference or something?

Megan Lawrence [00:26:52]:
Yes. Yeah. There was a woman that I met. This would have been in 2021, the end of it? No. 2022. The end of 2022. And, yeah, I was at a conference, and there was a woman reading the, like, meta model that she had just been given.

Kenna Millea [00:27:08]:
Yes, from, Divine Mercy University.

Megan Lawrence [00:27:10]:
She had just been given this book. She was really excited about it. She's talking to me about it, and it came up that I was, yeah, pursuing my license working working as a therapist. And, she found out that I was in Minnesota. She herself, I think, was living in Kansas, maybe. So I have no idea how she had this connection, but she yeah. She was like, oh, you live in Minnesota? You should totally check out the Martin Institute is what she said.

Kenna Millea [00:27:31]:
Most people call us an institute.

Megan Lawrence [00:27:33]:
Yeah. She was like, I just heard about them. Like, yeah. Totally look them up. And, I was like, okay. So I come home and I I

Kenna Millea [00:27:39]:
And where was this conference?

Megan Lawrence [00:27:41]:
Pennsylvania.

Kenna Millea [00:27:41]:
Is it? Okay. So she's from Kansas. Yeah. You're okay. Cool.

Megan Lawrence [00:27:45]:
Yep. And so I come home. I'm doing a little searching and not finding anything Right. Because I'm searching the Martin Institute. But a mutual friend of ours, I shared this with her, and she was like, oh, I totally know the people who are starting that.

Kenna Millea [00:28:00]:
I used to live with them. Our old nanny.

Megan Lawrence [00:28:04]:
And so, yeah. She put us in contact and, got a conversation.

Kenna Millea [00:28:09]:
What I think is, first of all, amazing. Like, she was this is this woman's from Kansas, like, far away. But also, like, the MCI was so little. It was in its infancy. I mean, you were the first clinician to join on. So this is a little bit of a digression, but I just I was thinking about this the other day when I was going over, yeah, some of the wisdom that you've gained through your Theology of the Body training. And I was like, wait a minute. I have that training to thank for bringing us together.

Kenna Millea [00:28:32]:
Yeah. So okay. Anyways, back, tangent over. So so through your Theology of the Body training, my understanding is it brought you even more insight. And maybe I can just hand it over to you to share with us what you've learned and how you think this helps us to relate to our bodies.

Megan Lawrence [00:28:49]:
Yeah. Absolutely. It has been a a profound gift. I'm I'm still, like, receiving, training there. I'm certainly still and probably will forever be a student, like, of of the Theology of the Body, but it has been a really profound, gift in my own healing and understanding of of myself and the reality of, like, givenness. For those of you who aren't familiar, the Theology of the Body is, essentially a series of talks that Pope John Paul the second, gave over a course of, I think, about 5 years starting in, like, 1979. Over, like, 130 talks.

Kenna Millea [00:29:34]:
It's a behemoth of archives.

Megan Lawrence [00:29:38]:
Yeah. But rooted in kind of the anthropology and theology of humanity and sexuality, and really uncovering the gift of our humanity through understanding the way it it reveals and reflects theology.

Kenna Millea [00:29:54]:
Yeah. And, you know, culturally, socially, my understanding is that JP2 is was really responding to the sexual revolution, to the legalization of abortion, you know, just to so much. And and he's just seeing this lack of respect for the dignity of the human person embodied physically, that inspired these talks, but we as a Church have have taken them together, and created this Theology of the Body, and there are different ways in which people can learn, you know, with him. I remember in college, groups would gather to listen to the Christopher West CDs, And so you are part of a program where you get to go take retreat slash classes, like, grad level classes, to be trained further in it. So, yeah, such, again, such a gift that you bring to us here, your perspective.

Megan Lawrence [00:30:44]:
Thank you. Yeah. It's been a huge a huge, gift, like I said, to my own life as well. And I think these, like, really core, for truths that as human persons, we are body soul creatures. We are not separate from our body, and in being embodied we have a very unique experience of relating to God because of the truth of his Integration, that he also is man. He's not only man, but he is fully man, and he he gifts himself to us in his son, Jesus. The the gift of our humanity is this, like, point of connection in communion.

Kenna Millea [00:31:38]:
So to be dismissive or even to denigrate the body would be to miss this incredible source of communion and connection with our Lord. And so Theology of the Body would say, like, we delve into it in order to, like, be more intimate with our God, you know, through our embodied experience. So how does, you know, what you've learned in Theology of the Body and and what you've learned also clinically, psychologically, how does all this connect to this body acceptance, gratitude of the body? What are the things that you see lining up together?

Megan Lawrence [00:32:19]:
Mhmm. That is a great question. It is true that God created our bodies, that God comes to meet us in our bodies, and that God loves our bodies. But I would say both in my personal experience and my clinical experience, often, it is not the case that that posture of, like, gift and love for our bodies is one, that's held. And I I think part of that is because, right, as embodied creatures, we experience life for through our bodies. Right? Our bodies are the avenue through which we encounter our experiences, positive and negative. And just as I shared, right, in the example earlier from my own story, there are ways that we make meaning of those experiences. And often because our reality is body and soul as one, the meaning that we make of those experiences can often include meaning about ourselves or our body.

Kenna Millea [00:33:28]:
So my goodness, my worth then gets tied up in my body. Like, my story about my body begins to impact the dignity of my very personhood. Is that am I following you? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Which, you know, we've recorded an episode recently with Father Nathan on shame. And so it just feels like these could, you know, connect deeply around. We make the distinction in that episode around being versus doing.

Kenna Millea [00:33:59]:
And so, you know, guilt relates to my doing. Oh, I made a mistake. Oh, shoot. I didn't do as well with that as I could have. And my being is like, I'm a mistake. I'm not good. I'm not worthy. I'm not lovable.

Kenna Millea [00:34:11]:
And so I hear this as, like, yeah, there could be a lot of light shed if we think about, oh, what kinds of stories might I be shaming stories might I be telling about myself in my body that have become globalized to be about my personhood, my very sense of self.

Megan Lawrence [00:34:31]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely. We again, we experience everything in and through our bodies. And so, yeah, if we think about maybe it's the experience of an accident or an injury that impacts my mobility or my functioning or efficiency for, experiencing chronic pain or or a switch in a nutritional need, something that feels outside of my control. Yeah. It's it's not impossible for us to develop narratives about our body or to even experience distance or or trying to separate from the needs that that is expressing. It's it's also possible, right, that experiences of trauma, the way somebody receives or rejects our body, the way somebody, violates our body or doesn't respect our boundary, All of those things can impact the narrative that we hold towards ourselves.

Kenna Millea [00:35:30]:
And there's so much research that's, you know, been ongoing, but I feel like it's really hit kind of mainstream, around our bodies and how they hold trauma that I often say to my clients, like, our bodies are truth tellers. We do a lot of, like, somatic influenced work. Somatic is using the body to gain information around my thoughts, my beliefs, memory, things like that. And, you know, clients will question me, like, what are you doing all that? Like, what do you notice and put your hand on your body part and all these things. And and I'm like, because our minds are actually quite easily manipulated, our bodies are truth tellers, and they hold on to things. And and they're good at storing things too for a while, and then often, you know, they they emerge. But but, yeah, I'm just I'm thinking about how actually to go to go back to the conversation about eating disorders specifically, that eating disorders actually are such confirmation of how interconnected the the body and the soul are. And so, yeah, I don't know.

Kenna Millea [00:36:35]:
I'm just I'm I'm noticing a lot of food for thought here for me. I don't often work with, specifically around, you know, body image and what have you, but I'm also thinking about, man, there are ways in which this could be incorporated into a lot of folks' therapy, therapeutic work, because the truth is, like, there are stories. We've all got an embodied experience, and for, we're telling ourselves a story whether we're aware of it or not. We're telling ourselves a story.

Megan Lawrence [00:37:03]:
Yes. I would certainly agree with that. Our bodies are wise. So wise. And, usually I would I would say that the reflection of, some type of either symptom of distress towards our body or some narrative, of disrespect or distress towards our body is, yeah, revealing a deeper need.

Kenna Millea [00:37:29]:
Yeah. So that perhaps if there are symptoms showing up in my physical person, I could give give permission to be curious around, like, hey, might that be pointing to that deeper need?

Megan Lawrence [00:37:44]:
Yes. Absolutely. There's actually a podcast that's that's, coming to my mind as you say that. There are a few episodes, on the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast. Early on in the beginning, stages of this podcast, Doctor Peter looked at, mind, body, soul, and heart and did a series kind of on each of these elements of our humanity. And in the body set series, there are a couple episodes that I think would be really valuable to to link here just as kind of next steps and exploring these things. And the first one is, yeah, him offering this invitation of how do we engage with a listening ear to to our bodies? How do we address that what our what our bodies are expressing through emotion, through, our physical experience, etcetera. Like, what those are communicating to us.

Megan Lawrence [00:38:38]:
And he, yeah, guides kind of offers a guided reflection on on how to do that. But I I think it could be really supportive.

Kenna Millea [00:38:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess, though, as I'm listening to you, it seems that there's this this necessary first step of being attuned to my body, of being aware of it, acknowledging of it, And, you know, the goal, as I'm hearing you say, would be acceptance, maybe even gratitude is further down the line. Can we go back to that beginning though? Like, you know, for so many of us, we are disconnected from our bodies, or we have difficulty being with our bodies in our bodies. Thoughts about that, concrete ideas. I mean, even for myself, like, I'm like, okay. If I'm gonna, you know, open up this door toward healing related to my relationship with my body, like, how might I start to increase connection and attunement there?

Megan Lawrence [00:39:43]:
I think you are spot on. You're spot on. I would maybe go back to something referenced earlier. Right? Like, the journey of healing, the journey of, growing in integration, like, isn't a linear one. So I'm not gonna say that, like, it has to be this before it's this. Like, it's not rigid in that way. But I think the more in which we have a posture of acceptance, that we have a posture of, curiosity, and we have a posture of gratitude, the more possible it will be for us to step into the work of processing the story around how we have come to hold kind of this disconnect or this distrust or this disdain for our body. The the more space we have for encountering our body in reality, the more support we will have in stepping into that space.

Megan Lawrence [00:40:45]:
Does that make sense?

Kenna Millea [00:40:46]:
Can you say more about that reality bit? What do you mean by that?

Megan Lawrence [00:40:49]:
Yeah. So acceptance is, I think, in its nature, receptive. Okay. Is that fair to say? Yep. Yep. I'm with you. And so when we think about the reality of our body and accepting our body, the reality is that it is a gift to us. I did not create myself.

Kenna Millea [00:41:13]:
I didn't choose this. Correct. Yeah. It was given to me. Like, the Lord saw fit that this should be the body that I receive.

Megan Lawrence [00:41:21]:
Okay. I actually once, this is just kind of a side note, but I once was bringing, kind of my own body image pieces to confession. And, yeah, I was really blessed by the response of a priest, expressing, this is the body that God has chosen to make you a saint in. Wow. That can be a really difficult reality. Yeah. But it but it is reality, actually. Yeah.

Megan Lawrence [00:41:50]:
It is true that God gifts us to ourselves. Yeah. That he gifts himself to us. And that he created us in love and with intention and purpose. Like, he he cares for our creation. Maybe the one other piece, is it okay if I share this to you? Yeah. I have a long not that long ago, I guess. When I was a missionary with FOCUS, one of my teammates, a dear friend of mine, shared this, like, really profound kind of insight around affirmation.

Megan Lawrence [00:42:27]:
And, it really struck me. It sticks with me today. But he said creation is the highest form of affirmation. And I think as I continue to sit with that in my life, this awareness of, ongoing gift. Right? That that it is our existence is an ongoing, like, affirmation of the gift of who we are. Right? We are being sustained at this moment by God, and that is is an affirmation of of our givenness. And so in each moment, we also we also hold this space, this opportunity to be receptive there. Does that make sense? Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:43:12]:
Yeah. I mean, I guess I'm hearing you say, like, I I get this choice. Right? The for the Lord has gifted me my body, my, like, corporeal existence and with its limitations, with its strengths, with whatever attributes it holds. And, and it's it's up to me. I get to decide if I'm going to embrace that and be grateful for that and and utilize it

Megan Lawrence [00:43:37]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:43:37]:
In a way that glorifies him. But, that at each moment, there's an opportunity to to turn toward him in faith. Because maybe I don't understand, particularly if I'm living with some I mean, I think about, you know, infertility or disability, perhaps an ability that's that hasn't been present even since birth, you know, or like you said, in an accident. But but I'm just I'm thinking about those very difficult things to accept and to grieve. But each moment, like, I'm I'm welcomed into. The Lord puts his hand out to me to say, can you step toward me in faith and in acceptance of what I've offered you? And in the ways that I want to reveal my love to you through your body. Again, through what it can and what it cannot do. I think that for me, I'm just reflecting on, like, in this Western modern culture where there is such an emphasis on productivity and on perfection, this is really challenging.

Kenna Millea [00:44:43]:
Like, this, it's countercultural, I would say. I don't think I'm overstating it to live in this way and to to think about myself in this way and to respond to others, about themselves in this way.

Megan Lawrence [00:44:58]:
I would agree. I think it's a a really difficult, practice. Certainly something that requires patience, requires practice.

Kenna Millea [00:45:06]:
Okay. I'm I'm trying to resist the temptation to get all linear, Megan, because I do believe what you're saying. I've certainly seen that in my own life, and I certainly see it with my with my clients, that healing in any way is I mean, just think about our moral life. Right? I I leave that confessional, and I have so much enthusiasm and conviction, and then there I am 2 weeks later, you know, saying much of the same things. So I I get that it's not linear. And, also, I kinda wanna put some things together that we've talked about today. So, I'm I'm hearing you say that there is, a maybe a a a first step, in being like, meditating on this gift of what we have received. This living in reality of, like, this is the truth.

Kenna Millea [00:45:55]:
Right? Like, whether you for I believe it does not cease it being truth. So that's maybe one of the pieces. And then the other is it feels like there's something of great value and necessity in acknowledging our own beliefs. In in naming that story, I guess, you were talking about earlier, what is the narrative that that we all carry a narrative? Whether we have taken the time to be reflective enough and to articulate it for ourselves, We have some kind of relationship, stance, story that we are telling about our bodies. And so, to get real about that. Right? There's a further living in reality of, like, okay, what's the reality between my ears, that's going on for me? And then it seems that, there can be this welcoming in also of much of what JP 2 offers us in the Theology of the Body around our body's goodness. And and in all things, right, we want to be integrated, but it seems like then a coming together is possible of, like, for, here's the truth of where I'm at. Here's the truth of what I believe.

Kenna Millea [00:47:04]:
Here's the truth of what I see when I look in the mirror, when I look down, when I see myself engaged in these activities. Bring your truth. You know, for, I'm I'm open, to you coming and enlightening me and broadening my view, giving me a different perspective. Other things that you imagine could be helpful, in this work of healing that I'm being really bold in saying that there's a little bit for all of us to do. I'm just gonna go out and say that. So there you have it. Not saying we all have eating disorders. I'm saying that we all have some ways in which our relationships with our bodies could use attention and could use grace and the Lord's enlightenment.

Megan Lawrence [00:47:48]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And maybe I can also normalize that the the consideration of encountering the story of my body, if that feels terrifying to you, like, that's not your fault. Yeah. And it's also not uncommon Totally. Because of these pieces that we've been talking about today. Yeah, it actually probably makes a lot of sense if if we were to look at the for. Like, why why there is such distance maybe that we have in encountering our body for or, why it would feel safer to to, make space from encountering my body for to resist encountering my body.

Megan Lawrence [00:48:33]:
And the story kind of connected to it. So I just want to, like, reverence the the reality that that this is a tender place for a lot of people and, that's not that's not something that, we need to be ashamed of.

Kenna Millea [00:48:46]:
And I also want to say for men and women. I really hope there's a lot of guys out there that are listening to this episode because I think for so long, again, in our culture, it has been said like, oh, body stuff, eating stuff, that's for women. And certainly, there are particular messages that we've received, but I also think that actually the way in which we haven't talked about the impact, the relationship of men with their bodies to their sense of worth and self has actually made it very difficult and even more shaming. Because then men who are attuned enough and aware enough have difficulty coming forward and saying, I need help with this.

Megan Lawrence [00:49:25]:
Absolutely. Yeah. I have, yeah, worked with a variety of individuals, not only specifically women. So I think that's a really important point for us to make and to just, yeah, normalize. Absolutely. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:49:42]:
No, I appreciate that.

Megan Lawrence [00:49:43]:
We are all human persons. We all have an embodied experience and, yeah. Yes. In thinking about taking initial step towards encountering our body in a new way. My invitation would be, would be to start with a nonjudgmental stance.

Kenna Millea [00:50:07]:
So is this our challenge by choice? Is this what you're giving us this week to practice?

Megan Lawrence [00:50:11]:
Yeah. Yes. Yes. It is my invitation. And the reason that I would invite us starting here is because, again, this is a place of tenderness. And so being able to start in a place that feels approachable, I think is tremendously important, like, for this work to actually be impactful, for, change and and transformation to actually occur here. This isn't something we can, like, will to happen.

Kenna Millea [00:50:40]:
Right. Like, muscle our way through.

Megan Lawrence [00:50:43]:
Right. We want to respect the place that our system's at.

Kenna Millea [00:50:48]:
Mhmm.

Megan Lawrence [00:50:48]:
Right? We want to respect the the state of the relationship in reality today with our body. Acceptance does not mean that I approve of it or that I want it to be that way, but it is important to be in reality about it. If I am denying that, it's going to be a barrier to making change. Does that make sense?

Kenna Millea [00:51:07]:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Megan Lawrence [00:51:09]:
So my invitation around a non judgmental stance, this is, a tool connected to the practice of DBT therapy. Yep. And it's essentially the invitation to hold a posture of non judgment.

Kenna Millea [00:51:27]:
So is that like like I think of like balance neutral, like neither good nor bad. Mhmm. Just like factual.

Megan Lawrence [00:51:33]:
Correct. Yeah. Okay. When I was, working in a treatment setting, we would consider, body neutrality, kind of within this space. But the idea of saying, can I have a neutral posture towards how I'm encountering my body. So this could be starting with, like, a statement like, this is my body. Right? As a way to challenge maybe the narrative of shame, of negativity, of opposition that exists to practice when I notice that narrative. Right? Practice becoming attuned to the fact that that narrative exists and seeking to respond or to make space for reality, to step with our body into reality, to say this is my body.

Megan Lawrence [00:52:19]:
I am not defined by my experiences. I'm impacted maybe by them, but I'm not defined by them. These are my hands. Does that make sense? Like, starting with this space of just, like, familiarizing ourselves with what is reality. And from there, we can expand it to include gratitude or acceptance, but I would say this familiarization is a first step and an important step, yeah, to lead to this work of telling this story, processing this story. One additional episode within that body set series, Doctor Peter interviews Doctor Andrew. I'm forgetting the last name, I apologize.

Kenna Millea [00:53:06]:
It's all good. It'll be in the show notes.

Megan Lawrence [00:53:09]:
Yeah. Okay. Center interviews, someone named Doctor Andrew who expands a little bit more on the obstacles that we could encounter in, receiving our body as a gift and then walks through, more of a meditation around receiving the gift of our bodies, as kind of additional steps for walking towards for ourself with that for that story, telling telling or processing the story that we hold towards our bodies. So again, a link for, like, kind of further exploration can can be found in the show notes. But I think in terms of my challenge by choice, yeah, being able to start with this place of nonjudgmental stance and to kind of hold compassion with ourselves for where we're at in in this relationship with our body today.

Kenna Millea [00:53:57]:
Yeah. Which I think is that nonjudgmental stance is tricky. Mhmm. I was listening to a conversation among some of our children the other day, and I'm just like, wow. And and and granted, it's developmentally appropriate when you're 6 and 4 like they are. But the the human inclination to good, bad, you know, like, and to just categorize things, put them in buckets.

Megan Lawrence [00:54:18]:
Yeah. A nonjudgmental stance can be really hard to hold and and maybe it can often be the experience actually that we're we're kind of unaware that we're having a judgmental stance.

Kenna Millea [00:54:28]:
Yeah, so quick to put things in buckets.

Megan Lawrence [00:54:31]:
Mhmm. And so one of my invitations maybe for encouragements would be to, in in practicing practicing holding a nonjudgmental stance or familiarizing ourself with that, would be to start with considering the body and its function. And maybe I can share a couple

Kenna Millea [00:54:47]:
Yeah. Please. Please.

Megan Lawrence [00:54:48]:
Of what that could look like. Maybe also an additional invitation. Depending on where you're at in your relationship with your body. It would probably also be my encouragement to start with a less, distressing part of your body.

Kenna Millea [00:55:04]:
Yes.

Megan Lawrence [00:55:06]:
Yeah. A less distressing part of your body when you're gonna practice this.

Kenna Millea [00:55:09]:
Maybe a part that you do, like, embrace Yeah. And appreciate, like already have an inherent appreciation for it. Mhmm.

Megan Lawrence [00:55:17]:
For or a part of your body that seems, more neutral, kind of in how you relate to it. And so we can maybe use the example of our hands. So, we could have any kind of sort of judgment towards our hands. There's lots of different ways that that could look. But in terms of kind of holding that non judgmental stance, starting with saying these are my hands and then considering how do they serve me? How do they allow me to encounter my life or those I care about, throughout my day? Maybe I could say these hands, allow me to, hold my child, maybe wipe their tears or comfort them. Maybe these hands allow me to care for my neighbor or my friend. Maybe they allow me to make art or to write, to do something that I'm passionate about, to garden. So just, like, let yourself consider how they further support, your participation in your life and kind of begin to expand that consideration of their gift, their gift in, their aspect of your creation.

Megan Lawrence [00:56:41]:
It is important, I think, to mention in the space of this challenge that, it it's not our body's function which makes it good. Our bodies are, like, good and sacred because they exist, because they reflect the image of God in a specific way that is unique to each person. Yeah. They they are good in themselves. There are ways that the function of our bodies or the way we choose to use them can and, like, ought to glorify God, but that is not why he loves them. He loves our bodies because they are a gift as they are.

Kenna Millea [00:57:23]:
Yeah. That's I mean, that is, in a sense, like, seems so simple. And as I listen to you, I'm like, oh, man. Like, that is profound. And and just to to be aware of how much we ask of our bodies and expect of our bodies. I often talk about, you know, reminding myself that I'm not an instant pot and just I I I demand so much of this physical being Mhmm. Without taking the time to really honor it and to, to look at it, speak about it, consider its care and its need for refreshment that that comes out of its dignity, that it's not just an object to be used. But it is, again, back to your first point, like, it is a gift to be received.

Kenna Millea [00:58:14]:
So yeah. Beautiful. Any further thoughts?

Megan Lawrence [00:58:17]:
Yeah. One thing that is coming to my mind, there is, another work by Pope John Paul the second. It's called A Meditation on Givenness. And in it, I would say he's expanding on a lot of these, concepts of of Theology of the Body, in particular, like, the way that we relate with another. And one of the lines in it, he's talking about how we ought to receive another And he says, it, the body, is to remain ever an object of your respect, considering, right, another. And I think this applies deeply to our experience of relating to ourselves and kind of connects to what you were sharing there. That, like, being able to slowly expand this space that we hold for the reality of our being, the gift of our being, the more there is this space to receive its dignity, to approach it with respect, and, and to trust its givenness.

Kenna Millea [00:59:25]:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, beautiful. If it's okay with you, I just want to lead us right into prayer, Megan, because I my my heart is moved to speak to the Lord about so much of what we've shared today. So let's go ahead and pray in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Lord of life, we praise you, and we thank you for the gift of our lives and particularly for wisdom, your genius in giving us our bodies, and in sending your son in the fullness of his humanity that he made holy the physical experience, that we have as humans. God, you are you are so wise.

Kenna Millea [01:00:21]:
You are so perfect in your providence and in your plan, And I pray that you would give us the grace to to be open to understanding your plan more and more, to be open to seeing the the wisdom and the genius in what you have planned for us even amidst the trials, the disabilities, the pains, the traumas. Lord, be with us. Be close to us. Sustain us. Heal us. We place ourselves. We place our loved ones. Perhaps anyone that we know is struggling in a in a serious way in their relationship with their body.

Kenna Millea [01:01:11]:
We entrust this all to you, for, and ask you to hold it and to carry it. And we pray all of this in your powerful and holy name. Amen. Amen. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Well, thank you so much, Megan.

Kenna Millea [01:01:30]:
Like, words cannot really express my gratitude to you for what you've given me in my own personal story, and the ways that I know I'm benefiting to support clients as well. Certainly excited about our listeners getting to receive from this and to consider that challenge by choice invitation you've given them. So thank you, our listeners, for, being with us for another hour of incredible conversation and considering how we can pursue this life of sanity and sanctity. If you haven't already, subscribe. There's more good stuff to come, so be with us. Get our emails and know when, you know, what topics are dropping, what episodes are coming out next. Connect with us on social media, @thiswholelifepodcast on Instagram and Facebook. And for sure, we are waiting to hear from you at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Kenna Millea [01:02:22]:
Until next time. God bless you all. This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com. Sorry. It's okay. Wait. Pat, we're waiting for a plane to go by.