Ep43 From Conflict to Connection: Process Over Content

"Pure love is capable of great deeds, and it is not broken by difficulty or adversity."
~ St. Faustina

Do you have the same arguments over and over again? Are you frustrated by a lack of connection in your relationship? Is it possible to still be connected when you disagree with the person you love?

In this episode, Kenna and Pat Millea explore the transformative power of prioritizing Process over Content in communication and relationships. They delve into the significance of empathy and vulnerability in fostering genuine connection, especially during times of hardship or conflict. Through personal anecdotes from their own marriage, Kenna and Pat demonstrate the healing potential of empathy and authenticity in a relationship. The truth is that our arguments aren't really about the content: the thing that happened or what someone said. On a deeper level, our conflicts are about the process: how we were affected, and how badly we desire to be loved, known, and understood, even in times of conflict.

Join Pat & Kenna for a fun and fruitful episode and take the next step toward conflict that connects!

Episode 43 Show Notes

Chapters:
00:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
13:52: Empathy creates connection
22:24: Process over Content
28:59: Fostering connection by focusing on Process
41:15: Challenge By Choice

Questions for Reflection & Discussion:

1. What is one thing that is sticking with you from this episode?
2. What is a time that someone has truly empathized with you and worked to understand your feelings? How did that make you feel?
3. When have you fallen into the trap of prioritizing being "right" over fostering understanding and connection in a conflict? How might a focus on Process over Content have led to a different outcome?
4. When is it most tempting to get bogged down in content? How can you focus on process instead?
5. What is a first step you can make to prioritizing process over content moving forward?

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

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Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 13:52 Empathy creates connection
• 22:24 Process over Content
• 28:59 Fostering connection by focusing on Process
• 41:15 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Kenna Millea [00:00:00]:
And here's the really beautiful thing. Your empathy toward me, your ability to stay in the process with me was exactly what I needed to start healing from that experience.

Pat Millea [00:00:19]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader, and I'm here with my bride, Kenna, a licensed marriage and family therapist. This is the stuff she and I talk about all the time, doing dishes in the car on a date. We're excited to bring you this podcast for educational purposes. It's not therapy or a substitute for mental health care. So come on in. Have a seat at our dining room table and join the conversation with us. We are so glad you're here.

Kenna Millea [00:01:09]:
Welcome back to This Whole Life, friends. It is so, so good to be with you here for another episode, and good to be with you, my darling love.

Pat Millea [00:01:16]:
Even better to be with you.

Kenna Millea [00:01:17]:
Yes. Good to see you this day. And I mean that with all my heart because I really didn't see you this morning. It was a blur.

Pat Millea [00:01:24]:
Yes. Correct.

Kenna Millea [00:01:25]:
And it is just about lunchtime here. And, I'm just seeing you for the first time.

Pat Millea [00:01:29]:
So if you hear a dull roar, it is my stomach and not a rogue dog that got into our podcast studio.

Kenna Millea [00:01:37]:
Here's the deal, though. Not my stomach because I have had my daily allotment of tortilla chips. I I have I have

Pat Millea [00:01:46]:
Your whole allotment? Because your daily allotment is kind of a lot.

Kenna Millea [00:01:50]:
I eat so many tortilla chips. It's it's weird. They're like my preferred chip and okay. So that and citrus, I probably can and like vegetables, but, like, I consume that every day.

Pat Millea [00:02:02]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:02:03]:
That's weird. Right?

Pat Millea [00:02:04]:
So here's here's my, like, here's my thing. Right? It's kinda like the like the the was it the tweet I showed you a while ago? that was, like, why why is it okay for introverts to not be able to function after 8 pm? But it's not okay for us more for no it was night people, morning people. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:02:21]:
Night owls and morning people.

Pat Millea [00:02:21]:
Why is it okay for a morning person to be unable to function after 8 PM? But it's immature for a night person to not be able to function before 8 AM right?

Kenna Millea [00:02:29]:
So true.

Pat Millea [00:02:30]:
So that first of all, double standard that I don't appreciate. 2nd double standard. Why is it okay for you to eat potato chips or tortilla chips every day? But my M&M addiction is suddenly a problem.

Kenna Millea [00:02:42]:
I don't know why, but it feels different. I like I think it's because I'm finally embracing my own tortilla chip dependency.

Pat Millea [00:02:56]:
Oh my gosh.

Kenna Millea [00:02:56]:
And I'm just being honest about it. And I think I'll come around to your M&M situation. I just haven't yet. Yeah. It's just it's because it's not how I see the world. Like, I don't see that as a necessary every day, but to me, like, salt. Yes. Up that up that blood pressure.

Pat Millea [00:03:14]:
I agree that it's the way, I would even say most people probably see the world that way. I would just put that on the fence post and say that feels unfair to me. That's all.

Kenna Millea [00:03:22]:
I I I receive what's in your picnic basket up here on the fence, and I agree that it deserves some further consideration. But

Pat Millea [00:03:32]:
I'm glad everyone could be here to be a part of it.

Kenna Millea [00:03:35]:
All this to say, my tummy not rumbly because I just had some chips and guac. Okay. So, anyways, also, those little guac cups are, like, the best thing that happened to me for maybe the worst because now I, like, have fresh guac. Right.

Pat Millea [00:03:49]:
I'm eating fruit and chips. It's great.

Pat Millea [00:03:53]:
Is an avocado a fruit?

Kenna Millea [00:03:54]:
I don't know. When you said that, I was like, I think he means the avocado

Pat Millea [00:03:56]:
A different topic for a different day.

Kenna Millea [00:03:58]:
Anyway, this is why we don't run a food podcast, before we get rolling, because I know you want to ask me my high and hard. But I'm gonna jump in Because I've been thinking about all of these amazing listeners who I'm like, you're our family or our community right now, who have heard our request to give us their ideas, give us their feedback, tell us what they wanna hear, and who have listened to us. And so I just wanna, like, like, celebrate that for a second and just give a couple shout outs to say thank you for taking the time. Thank you for maybe working up the courage. I don't know. And letting us know and to tell you that we hear you and we are working on it. Mhmm. So I'm thinking about my friend, Thomas, who wanted to hear about the relationship between mental health and spiritual direction.

Kenna Millea [00:04:43]:
So, like like, therapy. Right? Psychotherapy and spiritual direction. What what, if any, is the overlap? What's the difference? We've got Father Nathan working on an episode about that right now. So look forward to that. Heidi, you reached out to us and told us that you hear us saying this phrase, amoral decisions. And you're like, what is that? Help me understand it. So, we're gonna talk about that soon. So many of you wanting to hear about postpartum.

Kenna Millea [00:05:11]:
Postpartum mood disorders, anxiety, depression. And so I'm really pumped in the next few weeks I get to interview, a family practice doc on postpartum mood. Several of you, including Katie, asking about body image, tell us more. One of our listeners just coming forward in vulnerability and saying, I need to hear about advice on divorce. The changes and the challenges that come with divorce. So we'll go ahead and dive into that. And then, Matthew, you're gonna stretch us but you wanna hear about finances and marriage which we know statistically is a really big deal and we should address it. So that is coming up soon too.

Kenna Millea [00:05:49]:
So to all of you who have, messaged us, emailed us, know that we are listening, know that we are working on it, and we have a really exciting lineup coming up and there'll be more about that too in the next couple weeks. So, without further ado.

Pat Millea [00:06:03]:
All the more reason for you to send us your feedback and rate This Whole Life, share us with a friend, send this episode especially to somebody that you think could benefit from it. If you send it to your spouse, maybe do it in a not passive aggressive way.

Kenna Millea [00:06:19]:
Maybe start with the date night episode.

Pat Millea [00:06:21]:
Correct. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:06:21]:
Reach back into the archives and start with something a little low barrier.

Pat Millea [00:06:26]:
And then 3 months later, hey, babe, since you've listened to a bunch of these happy ones, let me just float this into your lap real quick. So, yeah, if you would just do us the favor of sharing on social media, check us out @thiswholelifepodcast on Instagram and Facebook, thiswholelifepodcast.com. Bring it on. We can't wait to hear from you.

Kenna Millea [00:06:42]:
Let's do this.

Pat Millea [00:06:43]:
Speaking of bringing it on Yeah. Kenna, can you bring on your highs and hards for us, please?

Kenna Millea [00:06:47]:
Yes. I can. So, hard to think there's any hards right now when the sun is just, like, streaming in through this window, and I'm like, it's a great day to be alive. And, also, also, I did not feel that way this morning when the alarm went off. So my heart is that I am I'm bringing it back. I'm bringing back the heroic minute, which is that commitment to get up as soon as your alarm goes off. And in our house, that has the added benefit of potentially not waking up all the toddlers with with hitting snooze

Pat Millea [00:07:19]:
Correct.

Kenna Millea [00:07:19]:
And waking up more people than I mean to. And it's it's it's been hard. Like, it's just been this willful decision to fling my fling the covers off and throw my feet to the floor and just start the day. I've been trying admittedly some little incentives. I've been my gosh. I feel ridiculous saying this, but I'm just gonna tell you

Pat Millea [00:07:44]:
So excited because I can see your embarrassment on your face.

Kenna Millea [00:07:47]:
Okay. So I've been leaving a half a stick of gum on my prayer table because then, I'm

Pat Millea [00:07:56]:
Your incentives are very different from mine.

Kenna Millea [00:07:58]:
It's like, wait. Hey, man. There's tortilla chips coming later. But it, like, wakes me up a little bit because I try to, like, wake up and have some prayer time before I go down in the basement and workout. And so just that, like, half a stick of gum, like mmm that minty goodness. So that's been my like little incentive. One morning you saw, I tried to like make myself a cup cup of tea in a thermos.

Pat Millea [00:08:16]:
You were so excited about it the night before.

Kenna Millea [00:08:18]:
I forgot to tell you it tasted terrible.

Pat Millea [00:08:20]:
I felt really bad that it was so bad because you were more excited about that than most things in a month.

Kenna Millea [00:08:20]:
I thought I'd found the loophole. Like I was like, this is how mornings are made. Not the case. Okay. So the hard reinstituting the heroic minute. I'm working on it. Pray for me. Okay.

Kenna Millea [00:08:36]:
The high. The high for me is it has been an awesome couple weeks of a few clients of mine wrapping up their therapy. That's all I'm gonna say about that. And just, like, reflecting with them. So one of my, like, requests of my clients is that we both get to know when therapy is over. i.e. don't ghost me. Don't stand me up.

Kenna Millea [00:09:02]:
and then just, like, never reschedule again. Like, it's okay you to say to me. And I think it's actually really important to do the vulnerable thing of, like, I think I'm done. Or I'm really mad at you, Kenna, and I don't wanna come see you anymore. Yeah. That works too.

Pat Millea [00:09:13]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:09:14]:
But these clients had the courage to tell me that this was over at least this season. And so, we get to walk through what I call closing interview, kind of like an exit interview maybe for an office space. But just like we talk about, like, what was it like when they came in? What was life like? What goals did they have? What's it like leaving? And, oh my gosh, it's just so rewarding, and I I love my clients. I mean that with great sincerity. Like, I will their good. And so it's a joy for them to be finishing up and to say, hey. I've got what I need for this leg of the journey. So that has been a definite high, and it just matches the sunshine right now.

Pat Millea [00:09:52]:
Which is really helpful too. I think for people that maybe have hesitations about therapy, it it for someone who has had hesitations about therapy myself, just those hypothetical people out there who hesitate to go to therapy or counseling. It really is. It was comforting, consoling to me to hear you talk about the joy that you have when people wrap up. Because what I was hearing was you don't have to go to therapy forever. And for some people that is going to be really helpful for them. They they need that kind of ongoing, almost permanent interaction. Totally fine.

Pat Millea [00:10:22]:
Totally acceptable. But for most folks, I would say, there's kind of a set time, there's a goal, there's a destination, and when that goal is met then the whole point of therapy actually is to go out and to try to use those skills and tools to be healthy and happy and holy with your own resources.

Kenna Millea [00:10:38]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah. So that's me in a nutshell.

Pat Millea [00:10:41]:
Great. What about you? My hard, last week, lest anyone out there have the illusion that we have the perfect marriage and we see eye to eye in any way, shape, or form. Yeah. I've gotten lots of feedback. Just kidding. You and I got in a fight slash argument last week. And the hard for me was just like once again being aware of the discomfort of not feeling connected to you, who are the person in the world that I most want to be connected to. So it feels just like like life doesn't really click the same way if you and I aren't on the same page.

Pat Millea [00:11:20]:
So there was a few days of that. It also coincidence, causation, coincided with the first like 2 3 days of Lent. So I was

Kenna Millea [00:11:29]:
I hadn't put that together.

Pat Millea [00:11:30]:
In a physical, natural form of suffering because while you can still eat tortilla chips during Lent they tell me that M&M's are apparently illegal during Lent or something. So, so I was getting off of caffeine. That was pretty dicey. I was I was in a sugar withdrawal. That was no fun. So all of these things ended up in this blended smoothie of suffering for me, and it was just a tough 3 days. The mini high is that we have reconciled and we I'm sure we'll still talk about these things for a long time to come, but we're in a much better place today than we were a week ago, which is great. True.

Pat Millea [00:12:05]:
My other genuine high is, that this we're recording this episode in the middle of February, and we're just coming out of Cana dinner season, which is so beautiful. It's also kind of funny to me sometimes that so so many parishes across the country, probably all over the world, do celebrations of marriage around Valentine's Day. They'll have a dinner. They'll call it a Cana dinner because of the wedding at Cana and the miracle of Jesus at the wedding, all that. It's all beautiful. It's all great. But it's hilarious to me in some small way that we do Cana dinners as close to Valentine's Day as possible as if it's a liturgical observation. Right? Like Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:12:40]:
That this is like the feast of marriage.

Kenna Millea [00:12:42]:
Hey, man. You know what? Hallmark, they're just putting us in the mood. They're getting us ready. They're helping us out. They're, like, secret evangelizers.

Pat Millea [00:12:50]:
Oh, gosh. So we we were blessed and humbled to speak at 3 Cana dinners in 8 days. Yes. Which is beautiful, and I'm not complaining at all, but it is amusing to me that we all have decided we have to cram them into this month anyway. But it was really just beautiful and wonderful. It was a busy week and a half for us and and that's fine, but it was just great. I I just I love being able to be some, like, humble, flawed, but hopefully authentic witness to marriage. I love being able to work with you and to plan out talks and tell stories and God willing help give a little bit of wisdom from our Church and from the Lord about marriage.

Pat Millea [00:13:27]:
And also, Cana dinners are just really fun because it's just a celebration of marriage. Like It's

Kenna Millea [00:13:31]:
like a it's it's like a wedding reception.

Pat Millea [00:13:33]:
Oh, yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:13:34]:
Without a bride and groom, like,

Kenna Millea [00:13:35]:
we're all the bride and groom.

Pat Millea [00:13:36]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:13:36]:
And we just get to be in this lovely mood. It it was really fun.

Pat Millea [00:13:39]:
Renewing. It was joyful. And, yeah, it was just really beautiful and tons of fun. So thanks for being my, I was gonna say, copilot, but that sounds like I'm in charge or something. My date. Yes. Exactly. Thank you for being my date.

Pat Millea [00:13:50]:
Yep. I'm really excited about this episode.

Kenna Millea [00:13:53]:
Are you?

Pat Millea [00:13:54]:
Oh, date of mine. Yes. And I'm excited for a couple reasons. And and I think it gets down to, like, kind of relevant day to day specific situations that a lot of people in marriages or in relationships find themselves in. So I would say if you if you're listening right now and if you feel like you and your spouse or your significant other, if you tend to argue about the same things over and over again. Right? If that same disagreement, that same fight comes up about the same thing, whatever that whatever that detail, whatever that content is, you know, or, or if there were times in your relationship that you felt like you've been talking to your spouse or your partner, but you just are kind of missing each other. Like, you're not actually connecting really well even though you're both paying attention, you're both looking at each other, you're both hearing each other's words, but it doesn't feel like you're really clicking. I think this kind of a topic, this kind of a conversation today is gonna be really helpful for that.

Pat Millea [00:14:50]:
So how would you start us off getting into what we're talking about today, babe?

Kenna Millea [00:14:53]:
Yeah. So my excitement about the topic today on empathy and process versus content or process over content, which I'll explain what that mysterious phrase means. I I'm excited because I get to work with people about this every day in my office, and I get to use it at home with you, with friends, with colleagues, like, all the time. Mhmm. I remember, Pat, when you were a few episodes ago, you had said that, that quote vulnerability is my superpower. And I think of empathy as a type of vulnerability and it being my superpower. Like, I'm regularly trying to take on empathy. And so when I say that word, you know, you may have immediate ideas of what I'm talking about.

Kenna Millea [00:15:39]:
But to clarify, when I think of empathy, I'm thinking of a way to connect to the emotion that another person is feeling. Mhmm. What I think is so key, like, clutch about that definition is it's it's not about connecting to the situation. Right? It's not about connecting to the circumstances or the facts of the case, but about their human experience.

Pat Millea [00:16:01]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:16:01]:
And so when I say, like, I want empathy to be my superpower, what I'm really saying is I want to always be prioritizing connection over all the other things. Because connection, I think, is what gives us in our relationships a sense of security that allows us to live this this life, this this life that requires courage, that requires us to do hard things like maybe resist the M&M's. I don't know. But but to to do these hard things. Right? So if I'm thinking about that with my spouse, if I'm thinking about that with my kids, like, yeah, I want them to feel like I've got their back, that they have someone in their corner, and that's what empathy does. And so, I wanna talk about that first.

Pat Millea [00:16:50]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:16:50]:
And, to really underscore that, you know, we we empathize not in the hopes that it will make the other person's upset feelings go away.

Pat Millea [00:17:02]:
Sure.

Kenna Millea [00:17:02]:
I think that is actually a natural consequence of empathy.

Pat Millea [00:17:06]:
It often does that, but that's not the intention.

Kenna Millea [00:17:09]:
That's not the goal. Mhmm. But it's to really to to reflect that message of you are worth the discomfort that it is to be with you in this ickiness. So so, Pat, you know, last week when we had that argument, you were very humble and self reflective, and you were like, here are the things that I know that I didn't do well that contributed to our argument. Right? And and it took some time for me to, like, put down my defensiveness and, like, let my red angry fire breathing dragon go back in the cave. But when I was able to, I was able to say, you know what? Like, I know what that feels like to feel ashamed, to feel guilty, to feel embarrassed, to feel regretful. And and just to be with you in that Mhmm. Which I think naturally then helped those upset feelings to dissipate.

Pat Millea [00:18:05]:
Mhmm. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:18:05]:
But it's it's really, being with another in their ick and that implicit message that you are worth this. Like, you are good enough for me to wade into the muck with you.

Pat Millea [00:18:17]:
Mhmm. I I remember a situation, years ago. There was a girl that I was dating in college, and we worked at the same, like, summer camp together. And she got some, like, really tragic news one day that someone that she loved had died. And for the life of me, forgive me, I can't even remember. I think it was like an aunt or someone like a family member. And, I remember, sitting in one of these, like, staff rooms with her so that she could have some space, like, away from the campers to to just start processing and grieving and kind of crying and just dealing with the emotions of it, you know. And I remember sitting with her in the office feeling so useless and so clueless, like, I don't know what to say.

Pat Millea [00:19:03]:
I don't know what I'm supposed to do in this situation. Like, I didn't know this relative. At that point in my life, literally, I don't know that I had ever lost anyone really close to me like that. So I actually didn't have the experience that she was having so I didn't really have anything to really go on in terms of empathizing, connecting with her so I literally just sat there in the room and that was kind of it right and I felt like a total failure and as we were leaving the room she said something along the lines of, like, I am so grateful that you didn't try to, like, say something to make me feel better. Like I just really appreciated that you were just there with me, like your presence alone was all I really needed, you know? And so that's like the the tangible example of what you're talking about, right? That like, I don't know what you're feeling. I'm not going to pretend I do. My goal in this situation is not to try to make you feel better. Oh, it's gonna be okay.

Pat Millea [00:20:03]:
They're in a better place. You know, all the things that we say to, like, make ourselves feel better because we're kind of uncomfortable and we we do it by trying to think it'll make them feel better. Genuinely out of cluelessness I think I accidentally did a good thing. Right. Right. Yeah. Which is to just be present and to literally like sit with her in the tragedy that she was feeling you know and yeah it's it was a good it's like a stark image for me of what I try to do in lots of different situations that are often way less serious than that but just day to day even

Kenna Millea [00:20:40]:
Yeah. I think that's exactly right. And actually, Brene Brown has this awesome video that I'd love for us to put in the show notes. It's like a 2 and a half minute clip, little cartoon animation with her voice over of what empathy looks like in action. And it's exactly what you're describing, Pat, of, like, being able to go down into the stuff, right, into the sorrow, to be able to see what another is feeling. And and while you said, like, I had never had a family member, you know, die in my life, but you know what sadness is. Right? Like, you know what grief is. You've had other things that have been taken from you or lost or, yeah, prematurely ended.

Kenna Millea [00:21:19]:
And so it's it's giving ourselves the space and and risking the vulnerability, back to your superpower, risking the vulnerability to connect with that experience of our own and to go, oh, that's where you're at.

Pat Millea [00:21:34]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:21:35]:
And and as humans, our hearts go out to each other. And so the reason I wanna start today's conversation around process and content on empathy is because this is the fundamental building block for when we are trying to have meaningful communication with anyone we love, especially our spouse.

Pat Millea [00:21:53]:
Right. So if empathy is the starting point, if it's about being able to, put ourselves in the place of someone else's feelings. Right? I may not understand the circumstances. I wasn't in that meeting that you were in today. I don't know what it's like to be their mom because I'm their dad. You know? Like Yeah. It's it's not in the circumstances, not in the situation exactly but can I can I identify with the feeling that you have? Can I ask questions, sit with you, can I learn to understand and connect with you in the feeling, right?

Kenna Millea [00:22:23]:
Which leads us into this process versus content?

Pat Millea [00:22:26]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:22:26]:
Right? So so when it's when we're focused on process, and I'm defining process is the way that that things are are done, the way that something unfolds, the way the conversation happens, the way that I feel. Right? So this is the stuff like inside Mhmm. That that maybe, is is more difficult to to mine and to identify versus content is the what. Right? This is the details. This is well, then you said, and then she said, and then the way that she looked at me was, you know so, the distinction between process and content. And in my office till I'm blue in the face, I will say, I want to focus on process over content when couples come to me or when individuals come to me and they just want to tell me the details of the story. The hope, of course, being that I will side with them and tell them that they are justified in a way they feel.

Pat Millea [00:23:24]:
Well we've got the juudge right in front of us. Let's just tell her the case.

Kenna Millea [00:23:26]:
Yeah. Oh, man. So many sessions like that. I'm not interested because that's not actually going to lead to intimacy and connection. What I'm more interested in is how you share with each other, how you enter into each other's world, how you meet one another at the fence post to use our our boundaries metaphor. I was thinking about how we can have the same words. Right? So that would be the content Mhmm. And how they can land so differently with a different process.

Kenna Millea [00:23:55]:
So so for example, to, to say to you, hey, could you grab milk and eggs after work tomorrow? To those are the words. Right? That's the content. That's the stuff. Right. To do that while I'm on my phone scrolling and I don't look up at you and I don't make eye contact, and I don't even check-in with what you've got going on. And I'm just, hey. Could you grab the milk and the eggs tomorrow after work? And I'm just kind of speaking it out there, how differently that could feel from me putting down my phone and looking at you, you know, probably smiling at you Mhmm. And going, hey.

Kenna Millea [00:24:35]:
Could you grab milk and eggs after work tomorrow? Like, this this the way that you are going to feel as a result of my words

Pat Millea [00:24:43]:
Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:24:43]:
In those two scenarios is it's gonna be different.

Pat Millea [00:24:46]:
The first one feels like, hey, servant or Admin assistant.

Kenna Millea [00:24:50]:
Right.

Pat Millea [00:24:51]:
Here's your next task.

Kenna Millea [00:24:52]:
Right.

Pat Millea [00:24:52]:
And the second one feels like, hey, love of my life, can you do me a favor, please? Yeah. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:24:57]:
Yeah, absolutely. Can you be my partner in this? And I asked this of you. Right. And in the first one, I imagine maybe not feeling like you can say no.

Pat Millea [00:25:05]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:25:06]:
Right. Feeling like you can be like, actually, that doesn't work for me. I've gotta

Pat Millea [00:25:09]:
I'll get fired, I guess.

Kenna Millea [00:25:11]:
And in the second one, it's this this, expression of openness to, like, hey. Does that work for you? Mhmm. So that's process, and it's really hard to grasp. It's why people come and work with me in my office because I get that it's hard to grasp. And it took me, you know, 3 years of grad school to get there, but I I want to see if we can share that today and talk about it because, oh my gosh, it changes so much.

Pat Millea [00:25:36]:
And content is so tempting to get bogged down in.

Kenna Millea [00:25:40]:
So tempting. I had a I had a professor that said, content is sexy. Like, content is like, she said what? He used what? You know, what? Like, what? Like like, the story is so salacious, you know, and it's did I use that word right?

Pat Millea [00:25:55]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think so. Right. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:25:57]:
It popped into my head all of a sudden. I was like, wait a minute. Like, that is it is it's enticing and it draws you in. And as a therapist, let me tell you, it's hard to resist. Right. But process is actually where we want to stay because that is what's going to lead us to connection and resolution of our arguments.

Pat Millea [00:26:14]:
I mean, it's no it's no surprise that all of the gossip magazines and websites in the world are all content based. Right?

Kenna Millea [00:26:21]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:26:22]:
Because it just it it seems so delicious when you want, like, a little nugget of rumors.

Kenna Millea [00:26:28]:
She wore those shoes with that dress?

Pat Millea [00:26:31]:
And it's just I mean, the whole gossip industry is its own problem and that's for a different day. But, but the content is so tempting because all of us every human being has this innate desire to just be right you know like there and I think it's motivated by our innate desire for justice that comes from God so there's an angle of that that is rooted in a really good thing but all of us love to be right. I remember a friend of ours who talked about early in marriage that she they're a married couple, beautiful married couple, super faithful, love each other just every moment of their lives. But earlier in their marriage, she said, she actually said out loud to her husband, well, do you want to do it your way or do you want to do it the right way?

Kenna Millea [00:27:20]:
Which is to be honest, it's something I think regularly. Like, true confession.

Pat Millea [00:27:26]:
I would imagine. Yeah. I think it once in a while too, but only with directions and geography with you. That's the only consistent time it comes up.

Kenna Millea [00:27:35]:
Fine, you can have that. But no. I like what you're saying, Pat, about that about justice. And I wanna, like, spin it a little bit of you do get to be right when you focus on process because you get to be the authority of your experience. So process is about so so for example. Right? Let's go back to our argument. It was well timed, by the way. We can we dissect this in the public's eye.

Pat Millea [00:27:58]:
Right? We did this for you guys.

Kenna Millea [00:27:59]:
Yeah. Yeah. Don't say we don't love you. Okay. So so in that argument, when when we came back, when we had time alone to process and and debrief and be reconciled together, you started with, here's what it felt like in the midst of that interaction. Right? You told me about your internal experience. And so it wasn't about it. It really it is true that it was tempting for me to get defensive, and I definitely started going there initially.

Kenna Millea [00:28:28]:
But because you focused on here's what it was like to be me. Here were the emotions I was having. Here's what was going on in my body. Here's some of the thoughts that were running through my mind. Mhmm. It was way easier for me to get over myself of wanting to be right and to go, oh, crap. That's how he felt. And and to want to be with you in that and to soften toward you, and, therefore, to resume that connection, to restore that connection, to heal that that bridge.

Pat Millea [00:28:58]:
Which is maybe one of the first kind of practical steps toward embracing this process over content kind of dynamic is, leading with content is basically just, oh, what's a good

Kenna Millea [00:29:13]:
Adding fuel the fire?

Pat Millea [00:29:14]:
Yeah like, adding fuel to the like Oh, yeah. Leading with content is inviting someone else into a fight, basically. Like Yeah. Here is the way I see things

Kenna Millea [00:29:22]:
I dare you to see it differently.

Pat Millea [00:29:24]:
I dare you to see it differently. Right? Exactly.

Kenna Millea [00:29:26]:
Come at me.

Pat Millea [00:29:26]:
So the other person's really happy to hit that tennis ball right back and say like, oh, no, no, no. That's not the way it happened. You know?

Kenna Millea [00:29:33]:
And we're off.

Pat Millea [00:29:34]:
So so leading with content almost always is like beckoning someone into an argument and to make the fight probably even worse you know leading with process is like it it's vulnerable and it's risky because you're, like, putting your heart out in the middle, like, in mid for, you know. And you're saying, like, this is how I feel. I was hurt. I feel sad. I'm I'm afraid. I I don't I feel like you're not hearing me clearly. I I feel disconnected from you. All these things that are, like, really difficult to say out loud because the risk is what if they don't meet me there? What if what if I put myself out there and they don't come halfway and they don't sit with me in the mess? Then I have rejection on top of what I'm already feeling, you know? So the risk is so scary.

Pat Millea [00:30:22]:
But in our anecdotal evidence, in your clinical experience, that is the way to true connection is to because human nature, again, empathy wants to fill in the gap when someone offers themselves in authenticity. It's it's an invitation to be just as empathetic as you are honest and vulnerable.

Kenna Millea [00:30:44]:
Well, in the the the message that goes under, right, me sharing about my process. So so in our argument, after you got done sharing and I was able to empathize and to go, oh, man, You said to me, and how did it feel to be you, Kenna? Right? You invited me forward. You were like, okay. Like, I trust the bond between us. Like, I trust that this is a safe space right now between us. Can I want to know you? And that's what process does. It focuses more on this self disclosure, which as you pointed out, is an act of vulnerability

Pat Millea [00:31:17]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:31:17]:
And really draws us closer to one another. And and it's less about the the facts of the case. It's less about the need to be right, which is so helpful. Yeah. I was thinking about someone that I was chatting with a few weeks ago about these kinds of things, and and she was sharing this frustration that, there was there was something that she had put on the calendar. I don't remember what it was, like a work commitment or something along those lines. And her understanding was that her husband was gonna take care of the carpool pickup that day as a result of of that thing.

Pat Millea [00:31:49]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:31:50]:
And he scheduled a work meeting or whatever. I don't even remember what the details were. Something was going on at that same time. And when she brought it up to him, he was, you know, she was like, I'm I'm upset about this. I'm really feeling, like, sad that you didn't see that. And I just I'm I'm wondering, like, how that happened and, like, all this concern. Right? A little bit of process mixed with content there for him.

Pat Millea [00:32:13]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:32:13]:
And he was very quick to go, oh my gosh. Well, I think I can just get my mom to pick up the kids from school because, you know, she teaches just a few blocks over, and that's no big deal. And, you know, done. Right? Problem solved. Like, no need to argue about this. And my friend was saying, like, I just it, like, stuck with me. There was this, like, residue and I was upset. And she's like, it it finally clicked for me that it was the process.

Kenna Millea [00:32:37]:
Right? Like, I was grateful that the problem was solved.

Pat Millea [00:32:39]:
Sure.

Kenna Millea [00:32:39]:
Right? Yep. Kids will be picked up by grandma.

Pat Millea [00:32:41]:
They do need to come home today. Yeah. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:32:44]:
Like, that that's okay. That's good. That's content. And she's like, but this process of feeling valued, like, feeling like he sees the worth in my commitments. Again, I forget what meeting it was that she had or what appointment. And and so I was like, yeah. Like, this is classic valuing content over process, which is upside down in our world. And so, it makes sense to really want our spouse, our partner to see, like the the importance the meaning that this had for us.

Pat Millea [00:33:18]:
I think of the just even like the metaphor of like physical posture you know the the the best posture of a marriage is a husband and wife hand in hand moving in the same direction side by side toward heaven. Right? And God willing leading their kids and a whole million other people along with them. Right? But side by side moving in the same direction, common project, common mission, we're going in the same direction. Getting into content too much starts to turn them toward each other and now they are tempted maybe to look each other as the opposition or the enemy because that person is seeing things in a different way than I am and I need to make sure they know that their way is not the right way. You know it just it's that kind of physical posture. I think of a little short video that I saw years ago. It's like 2 minutes long. I'll definitely put it in the show notes because it's just too funny and too spot on.

Pat Millea [00:34:13]:
I think it really hits the nail on the head. It's a little video called It's Not About the Nail.

Kenna Millea [00:34:18]:
Oh my gosh, I forgot about this.

Pat Millea [00:34:20]:
Have you seen this? Yeah, exactly.

Kenna Millea [00:34:21]:
You showed it to me a long time ago.

Pat Millea [00:34:22]:
I thought so. That's right. So it's, you know, husband wife, boyfriend girlfriend, whatever. A husband wife let's call it sitting on a couch and they're sitting next to each other facing each other and the wife is just complaining about just this like pressure that she feels in her life and it there's a pain that just won't go away. And, the husband's like, I I feel like if maybe you just changed one little thing, then she's like, I feel like you're not even listening to me. I I'm trying to explain to you that I feel this pressure. Like like there's a vice around my for, and then the camera kind of pans out. And there's a literal nail dug into her forehead about 3 inches deep.

Pat Millea [00:34:59]:
So it's an absurd premise obviously, but she keeps going on and on and on about like how it makes her feel, the pain, the stress, the pressure. And her husband is like, I think if you just took out the nail, it might be better. She so it's it's this whole hilarious metaphor about communication, miscommunication, but really it's a lot about what we're talking about. Right? That, that that inclination to problem solve is a very understandable one right like from a distance objectively we can sometimes see things that might make suffering a little bit easier for people that we love, you know. But what they need in that moment before we get to how to address the issue, what they need first and foremost is to be connected to the person they love, you know. Yeah. And it's not I mean, that that video is a kind of maybe gender stereotyping situation. It probably is worth saying that in our marriage, you are more likely the problem solver than I am.

Pat Millea [00:35:54]:
So it's not a gender issue at all, but just that desire to be connected before we get to the content is really, really important.

Kenna Millea [00:36:02]:
Yeah. Well and I and I like that you're bringing up that that content does need to be addressed. And my experience, again, personally, professionally, is content actually is really easily addressed once we've attended to process. Like, once, Pat, you and I, in that argument in our bedroom that night, felt like we were back to being arm and arm walking in the same direction. Right? Not seeing each other as the enemy. The issue pretty quickly resolved. Like, I mean, I think we literally had like 3 more sentences of like, okay, how do we actually tackle this thing to try and prevent it from happening again, at least in this way. And then we were like, yep.

Kenna Millea [00:36:40]:
Said our prayers and went to bed. I I think about how you had a mentor that would say to you in youth ministry, they don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And that's true for all of us humans. Right? It doesn't just work for teenagers. I mean, also for them, especially. But but, like, my ability to receive any feedback about any issue I'm facing or an, a complaint you have with request for change with me, I need to feel like I'm I'm securely connected to you again. And so that's what focusing on process does for us.

Pat Millea [00:37:16]:
And it's really valuable, I think, to to be able to say that out loud that we are going to get to content. Because ironically, I think the the fear that some people need empathy for themselves is the fear that if I get bogged down in all these emotions garbage, we're never getting anything done.

Kenna Millea [00:37:34]:
Right.

Pat Millea [00:37:35]:
We're just gonna sit in this swamp for 6 months The we're gonna we're gonna lose the house. I'm gonna lose my job. Like

Kenna Millea [00:37:40]:
No one's gonna pick up the milk and the eggs.

Pat Millea [00:37:42]:
And the kids are still at school!

Kenna Millea [00:37:45]:
That is that is a bad deal. Okay, guys. That's not what we're going for here. We are saying, while not always linear thinkers over here in this situation, process really gets to be that foundation. Right? Focusing on here's what the magic question I like to think of is, here's what it's like to be me. Maybe if I we have time for one more story that just, like, really stands out. When when I really started to get this and understand it, there was a situation that happened. I don't know if you remember this at all, but a situation that happened where we were away from each other.

Kenna Millea [00:38:17]:
Like, I was in another physical place, and you were home with the kids. I was away for a bit. And someone who is close to both of us, something had happened, and they really hurt me. And and or I should say, I was really hurt by their actions, their words. And thankfully, because we weren't in the same state at the moment, I had some time to think it through. And I was like, you know what? This is a really great opportunity for me to to practice, like, purest style being focused on process over content. And so when you and I did our, like, phone check-in that night, you're like, how's your day? And I was like, it was actually really hard. And you're like, okay.

Kenna Millea [00:38:56]:
And I said, I wanna I wanna try something, Pat. Like, I wanna tell you about something that happened today, but I'm gonna really keep my feet firmly planted in my garden. And and I'm not gonna tell you the details. I'm not even gonna tell you who this was about. And you were like, what? Right. And so I proceeded to say to you, this thing happened. Oh my gosh. I'm devastated.

Kenna Millea [00:39:20]:
Like, I am so hurt. I feel so unseen, so unappreciated, so shamed in a public way in front of other I'm just yeah. It's just so heavy on me, and I and I went on, and I shared this with you. And here's what I think was, like, such an amazing gift and fruit of that exercise was all that you had left was to empathize with me.

Pat Millea [00:39:46]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:39:46]:
There was no content for you to go, that person did what? No. You didn't hear that right, Kenna. That couldn't have been the way. They never act like this. Why would they do that to you? Like, none of that ever happened.

Pat Millea [00:39:56]:
And on my side of the phone, it was really frustrating and hard because the, again, the the gossip industry part of my heart was, like, I am going crazy. Like, just give get me out of the suspense. I wanna know who did it. I wanna know what happened. I need the details. Like but but the beauty is it's not crucial for me to know that stuff to be able to empathize with you. It's not necessarily helpful for you to say those things out loud and maybe maybe I start thinking differently about a person in our life, you know. So it really did give us both a great opportunity to just meet in the middle to be connected, which is what you really wanted in that situation in the first place.

Kenna Millea [00:40:34]:
Okay. And here's the really beautiful thing is your empathy toward me, your ability to stay in the process with me was exactly what I needed to start healing from that experience. Mhmm. Because due to the circumstances, that person was not available for me to, like, have an honest conversation with and to be reconciled with. And so what you were able to do by staying in process with me was to really validate me, to let me have my upset feelings. And as we've talked about many times on here, that once our upset feelings start to be heard, they can recede. They're like, oh, I've done my job. I don't have to be so loud anymore.

Kenna Millea [00:41:15]:
So drum roll, if you hadn't already guessed Hey. This is our challenge by choice this week. Challenge by choice is to tell someone about a process for yourself. Maybe it's your spouse. Maybe you gotta start with a friend. Maybe you start with your journal. Maybe it feels like a little too risky right now and that is okay because we all gotta start somewhere. But to try and be that purest of just retelling a story and to just tell it from, this is what it's like to be in my garden, to be in my shoes, in my body, in my heart.

Kenna Millea [00:41:50]:
These are the things that are coming up in me. This is how it leaves me feeling. This is what it's like to be me. That is the million dollar process focused question. So to ask yourself, what is it like to be me? And then to challenge yourself to stick to just that. And to see to see the kind of response that you get. To see how it feels. Is there a different quality in the kind of connection that you feel with this person that you're sharing it with than when you focus on content? So there you have it.

Pat Millea [00:42:19]:
I love it. That is very exciting and very good homework. Yep. Yep. Why don't we pray to do that? Because this is not necessarily an easy thing, and it it's worth saying as well even before we pray that it's gonna take practice if this is something that you're not in the habit of doing with your spouse, with your parents, with your kids, you know, it's gonna take practice. And if there are some stumbling blocks, if there are some obstacles, if you get tripped up along the way, do not be just do not be discouraged. Take heart. It's worth the effort to to strengthen that muscle and to work on the process of sharing the process.

Pat Millea [00:42:54]:
So, let's pray friends. Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Lord, you are the God of truth and life and we offer you our our praise and our thanks today for all the good and all the grace that you pour out on us every day. Lord, we thank you for giving us this human experience, including these, these emotions that we've been given to process the world around us, to understand the ways that we fit into the world, the ways that we're responding to it. And we thank you also for the desire that you've implanted in us to connect with others, to be connected with others, especially those who are most important to us and most near and dear to us. So we ask, Lord, for your wisdom and for your guidance in all the conversations that we'll have, in the future in seeking connection with others in the midst of hardship and difficulty, even in the midst of hardship with that particular person. Lord, please heal our hearts.

Pat Millea [00:43:56]:
Help us in times where we feel weak or afraid. Help us to take heart and to follow your voice into authentic relationships with each other, that flow from an authentic relationship with you. And we ask all this Jesus in your name. Amen. Amen.

Pat Millea [00:43:56]:
In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Kenna Millea [00:44:18]:
Thanks, baby.

Pat Millea [00:44:18]:
Well, I'm gonna grab some m&m's. What are you gonna have?

Kenna Millea [00:44:20]:
I still have a half a bag of chips.

Pat Millea [00:44:23]:
Just kidding. Yeah. I know you do.

Kenna Millea [00:44:25]:
I'll just have to wait for tomorrow. Alright. Till next time, my friends. God bless you.

Pat Millea [00:44:29]:
God bless you.

Kenna Millea [00:44:35]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Pat Millea [00:44:56]:
I do like the cha sound a lot, though. That's that's part of Italian. It is kind of fun. Che.

Kenna Millea [00:45:00]:
Che. I mean, you have, like, it has its own letter in the alphabet in Spanish.

Pat Millea [00:45:06]:
Oh, that's right. Wait. In Italian or Spanish?

Kenna Millea [00:45:09]:
Spanish. Che. Right?

Pat Millea [00:45:10]:
Che. I don't know if they do that anymore. What? There was something, like,

Kenna Millea [00:45:15]:
Who changed the Spanish alphabet. I worked very hard to do

Pat Millea [00:45:17]:
I know.

Kenna Millea [00:45:18]:
memorize that.

Pat Millea [00:45:19]:
I wanna say what is