Ep48 Sanity & Sanctity with St. Thérèse: Book Study Part 2

“It is the love of God dwelling in our actions that makes us whole. It is love that keeps us sane.”
~ Fr. Marc Foley

It's the grand finale of our book club! In Episode 48, Kenna, Pat, and Fr. Nathan LaLiberte wrap up their discussion on The Love That Keeps Us Sane by Fr. Marc Foley. Together, they reflect on moments of conviction, the essence of love as our primary vocation, and the interwoven nature of holiness and sanity in everyday life. From personal anecdotes to spiritual insights, the trio navigates the challenges of showing true charity, letting go of expectations, and embracing the beauty of ordinary moments.

It's appropriate that, in approaching a great saint who sought to do "small things with great love," we consider this small book with such great opportunities for transformation. Join the conclusion of this transformative journey as we all uncover the profound impact of living a life grounded in charity and authenticity. St. Thérèse of Lisieux, pray for us!

It's never too late to join our book study on The Love That Keeps Us Sane by Fr. Marc Foley, OCD!
Order your copy here 

Episode 48 Show Notes

Did you miss Part 1 of our book study? Check out Episode 47 here.

Chapters:
0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
10:43: Chapter 4: The Sanity of Loving Freely
23:11: Chapter 5: The Divine Perspective of Charity
31:10: Chapter 6: An Attended Life, an Authentic Life
43:03: Challenge By Choice

Questions for Reflection & Discussion:

1. What is one specific thing that you're taking away from this book study?
2. How does the concept of being gentle with oneself and embracing "more littleness" resonate with your own experiences and reflections on life?
3. Do you see the concern with "becoming a saint" as a focus on my efforts rather than on God's grace & mercy? What do you see as the defining goal of your life?
4. How do you view love as your primary vocation in life, and how does that perspective influence your daily interactions and decisions?
5. When is it most difficult for you to see people and situations with God's perspective? How might you see with the eyes of God more consistently?
6. How might you apply the concept of right care (attentiveness in the doing) over wrong care (worry about the outcome) in your spirituality, relationships, and pursuits?

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

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Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 10:43 Chapter 4: The Sanity of Loving Freely
• 23:11 Chapter 5: The Divine Perspective of Charity
• 31:10 Chapter 6: An Attended Life, an Authentic Life
• 43:03 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:00:00]:
Oftentimes in my parish, the people are just living completely ordinary lives, and they're just raising their kids. They're coming to confession because they know that they're weak. They're just sincerely approaching the life of grace, and, like, I see that, and I'm like, that's sanity, and that is holiness. You are encountering the incarnation of love before you, and sanctity and sanity have come together.

Kenna Millea [00:00:33]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm with my husband, Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader. We invite you to our kitchen table. Okay. Not literally, but but you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having. Once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes. We're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes. It is not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care.

Kenna Millea [00:01:13]:
So let's get talking about This Whole Life. Welcome back to This Whole Life, friends. Thank you so much for joining us for this second episode, second edition of breaking open The Love That Keeps Us Sane.

Pat Millea [00:01:36]:
The grand finale.

Kenna Millea [00:01:37]:
Yes. I'm here with my love, Pat Millea, and you, Father Nathan LaLiberte. Hello. Who can I tell everyone that my nickname for you is FNL? Like, SNL. When I texted this to you one time Finale. I like that.

Pat Millea [00:01:49]:
FNL. I like that.

Kenna Millea [00:01:50]:
FNL. I just it just, like, rolls off on

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:52]:
the couch. It's like Friday Night Live.

Kenna Millea [00:01:53]:
Oh, Friday Night Live. There you go. Friday Night Lights.

Pat Millea [00:01:54]:
Friday Night Lights, that football TV show.

Kenna Millea [00:01:56]:
Maybe that's what it is. I bet there's a good logo out there for you then as a result of that.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:01]:
There probably is. I know.

Kenna Millea [00:02:02]:
I will look into this. Maybe we can have actual merch someday. Anyhoo, welcome back. And I know, Father Nathan, you wanted to give a little a little disclaimer here as we kick this off.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:12]:
Yeah. So I I mean, I am of the temperament when I listen to a podcast. If they're like, hey. We're gonna do a book review. I'm like, turn off. Because it's like, I I I maybe haven't read the book. Right? But, like, I wanna I was talking with Pat and kinda after the first one. I'm like, you know what? You didn't even need to read the book to listen to that.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:29]:
And so just to be able to say, we you you can listen without having read. Like, I mean, I would love I would love for you to support Father Marc Foley's book because it's amazing and just to have that text and to be able to give it to someone, but you do not have to read it.

Pat Millea [00:02:43]:
You will not be lost. We will read you portions of the book. We'll cite pages for you to look up later if you want to, but you'll be able to follow along very easily having not read the book.

Kenna Millea [00:02:53]:
So stay on, my friends. Stay on. That is what we're saying. Okay. Well, if I kick off the episode, it means I get to decide who goes first in our highs and hards.

Pat Millea [00:03:00]:
Oh, is that right?

Kenna Millea [00:03:01]:
Look what happens when Kenna gets power. Here we go. You guessed it. Pat, you're up.

Pat Millea [00:03:08]:
One of my, very proud fatherly highs recently has been, the extent to which my oldest two children have been willingly brainwashed into the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

Kenna Millea [00:03:21]:
Yeah. I don't even know Father knows the depths to which they have all.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:25]:
Do tell. Do tell.

Pat Millea [00:03:25]:
For this, Father. So the game apples to apples. Right? Yes. Where you you match up nouns and adjectives, and it's a fun game. There's no real winner or loser. You keep points, but it's just for fun. Have making fun comparisons. Our children, the oldest 2 who have now we've we've gotten up to Doctor Strange is the next movie on the docket for to for tomorrow night.

Pat Millea [00:03:43]:
They have created maybe a 100 of their own handmade apples to apples cards of only MCU characters and items. So that they can sit around and they can pull out one of the normal green cards, like

Kenna Millea [00:03:59]:
Funny.

Pat Millea [00:04:00]:
Like self centered or funny or enigmatic, and they can have goofy discussions about which Marvel character or item most fit that adjective.

Kenna Millea [00:04:09]:
It is They take it to school and play it at lunch with their friends.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:12]:
Pat, I am so proud of you as a father. Like, I I just I

Kenna Millea [00:04:16]:
You probably need to come over and play with them.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:18]:
I do need to.

Pat Millea [00:04:19]:
You really should.

Kenna Millea [00:04:20]:
It's so great. They have, like, laminated the cards. Like, it is there's, like, artwork. They've looked up quotes from movies. Because you know how the apples to apples card looks now. It'll have, like, a little snippet about the person. It's not really biographical, but but It's

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:31]:
I'm kinda like tearing up. This is so beautiful.

Pat Millea [00:04:33]:
It's the greatest. It is the greatest.

Kenna Millea [00:04:35]:
You need their spiritual father and take credit for this, Father Nathan. FNL. Okay?

Pat Millea [00:04:40]:
Oh, my gosh. My hard is a really minor hard. It's so good, but it's just a minor difficulty that at the end of every school year, as any parent can tell you, everything happens at once. Everything. Every concert, every project at school, every final field trip, and all of it happens in the month of May, basically. And we are just now, as we record this, dipping our toes in the water of signing a permission slip every day Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:05:09]:
And going to project is to

Pat Millea [00:05:11]:
There's a concert every night for the

Kenna Millea [00:05:12]:
next 3 weeks. We need to go to.

Pat Millea [00:05:15]:
Having talking to every kid individually, alright. Tell me again, what projects do you have to do?

Kenna Millea [00:05:20]:
What do we need to build out of Legos tonight?

Pat Millea [00:05:22]:
May crowning at school, which is such a great thing, but you just it it's all good things, but all the good things happening at one time make it a complicated month. So that's all.

Kenna Millea [00:05:32]:
The other day, life got so insane that some of the children had to sit outside of my meeting at the archdiocesan offices watching Spider Man on my phone while another kid got forgotten at baseball practice. While Pat was driving across town to come get the children, I was in a meeting, and I kept getting up to look out the window to, like, check on the van. And because it was a secure parking lot. There's, like, a boom gate, whatever. And finally, the person next to me goes, is there something I can do for you? What is the deal?

Pat Millea [00:06:00]:
Our children all got home safely and happily. It's all good.

Kenna Millea [00:06:03]:
And, yeah, that one kid finally found his way thanks to another family that wasn't supposed to bring him home bringing him home. Father to you, my friend.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:11]:
Alright. So my high is I am doing an audio book that I am geeking out about. So you probably don't even know this. So my dream when I was a child, like, you know, some people say, oh, I always wanted to be a priest. Like, wasn't even on my radar till I was 18. My dream was I wanted to be a pediatrician. Woah. I love

Kenna Millea [00:06:29]:
I totally see that.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:30]:
I love medicine. I love, like, the intricacies of the human body, and I just love working with kids. And so I was like, this is gonna be the best job ever. And then God had other plans. So which is great, but I found this book that my dad told me about called The Body by Bill Bryson. And it just goes through every system of the body and just kind of dissects it and talks about how intricate it is. And I don't know, you guys. I just I I'm it's such a marvel that we work Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:03]:
As human beings. Talk about

Pat Millea [00:07:04]:
the genius of creation, man.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:06]:
I there's been times where I've had to pause it. And, actually, I usually listen to it when I'm driving into the parish, and I just I just sit there in silence dumbfounded. Like, how is this all happening? And how did I not know that all this is going on inside of me, and I don't even do anything about it. I just take it for granted. So I don't know. That's my high is I'm I'm so I'm just so grateful for what God has made and to actually be able to however much time I left on this earth, like, now I can appreciate it. Mhmm. So, I mean, even when, like, I blow my nose, I'm like, I know what's going on.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:40]:
And like, my body is actually, you know, like sifting through

Kenna Millea [00:07:51]:
Also, if you could come to my house and teach my children how to blow their nose, like, I don't know if you know, like, how difficult that is to teach someone to do. I think there should be people that

Pat Millea [00:08:00]:
Someday, good priest friend, we will initiate you into the club of the Nose Frida, and your life will never be the same. If you it's a it's a if you know you know situation, we'll leave it at that.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:08:12]:
It may become one of my hards, so So my my hard honestly is, getting really, really close to my final days at the parish and just the the transition out. I mean, like, there there's there's real grief that's kind of hidden now of the things that I want the people that I'll miss and, like, the the daily stability. And so, I mean and just also too having to look forward to what's coming next is there's just a lot of logistics. So it's, I mean, it's it's just hard because it's just a lot. It just feels like there's nothing settled, and there's a lot to do. And so that's definitely my heart right now.

Kenna Millea [00:08:47]:
Well, I will pick up on that word settled and say that my high and hard relate to the idea of of settling, settling in, settling into routine. And the hard is that there's a shadow side to that, and that can be this feeling of a of a rut, and of things not feeling brand new and sparkly and novel. And, and so I think about that, you know, with simple daily things like my my lunch routine, like, what I eat for lunch every day and my workout routine, and bigger things too like prayer life. But the the upside of that, the other, the high of that is, like, taking a deep breath. And for many, many years, just especially with the the the coming of children, and starting a business, like, it's just always at breakneck pace. And so to also be like, you know what? It's kind of fun to, have a weekend where it's like, what do you wanna do? Like, there's white space. We don't have to do a work project over the weekend. We can really just relax and embrace it.

Kenna Millea [00:09:50]:
Part of that, and I'm sure I'll talk more about it in a future episode, or, actually, Pat, you have an episode coming out about it, is the idea of Reclaiming Sunday, and really making the Lord's day holy. And so, yeah, Pat, you'll be you've got an interview, coming down for us here in the months to come. But, that is a high as well that has come with settling in, settling into a rhythm is, there's more space to worship the Lord and to be together on on the Sabbath. So

Pat Millea [00:10:17]:
Beautiful. Yep. I agree.

Kenna Millea [00:10:18]:
That's life lately.

Pat Millea [00:10:19]:
Well, episode 2 of The Love That Keeps Us Sane. So in episode 1, the first half, we talked about the introduction to the book and the first three chapters. If you have not listened to that episode, it's a great option to go back and start there. I think it's a really good foundation, but this will also be a great stand alone episode. So if you just wanna carry on and not go back or change episodes, we're we're glad to have you here, and I think you'll really enjoy it. Chapter 4 starts the second half of the book, The Sanity of Loving Freely. One of the kind of keystone quotes that stuck out to me off the bat in this chapter was on page 53. Father Foley says, what allowed Therese to live in a sane state of mind was not looking beyond her choices for a reward.

Pat Millea [00:11:04]:
And he makes this distinction that with Therese let me start with us. For so many of us, for myself, certainly, there are so many times where my effort and the goal are 2 different things. And I value the goal way more than my effort that that my effort is just a means to an end. What what I'm trying to do is just to attain the achievement, and I'm very goal oriented. What he said is different about Therese is that for her, the effort was the goal. That she would begin all of her spiritual efforts knowing that she would fail 100% confident this will not work, but it's in the effort that I'm going to show you my love, Lord, and I'm gonna trust you to pick up for when I fail.

Kenna Millea [00:11:47]:
That's so hard. Like, that is so against our human nature. Like, I mean, Pavlov's dog. Right? Like, we are made, like, as creatures, like, give me the reward. Give me the I'll do the thing. If you give the reward. I'll jump through the hoop if I get the prize. This was pronounced a lot in my conversation in my interview with Father Foley, which precedes the first episode of this book study.

Kenna Millea [00:12:08]:
And it actually reminds me of, an episode of the CFR's podcast, Poco a Poco. And I'll try to find it for you guys and link it in the show notes. But they were talking about and, again, this was eye opening for me. They were talking about this trend among faithful to say, I wanna be a saint, and to, like, focus on those, like, I wanna be a saint.

Kenna Millea [00:12:27]:
And they were saying the flaw in that is you want the reward. Right? You want the acknowledgment from the Lord of, like, well done, good and faithful servant.

Pat Millea [00:12:36]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:12:36]:
And they're like, no. What we wanna do is be with God. Like, we we want to do the thing that allows us to to be close to him and to please him and to glorify him. And, yes, the result of that is likely sainthood. But, actually, what we really wanna put our efforts on, to your point, Pat, is, like, loving the Lord and and being attentive to his will. And I was like, oh, dang. Like, that is like that's a mind shift.

Pat Millea [00:13:00]:
I have started really getting, like, bristling at that kind of language, honestly, of, like, I wanna be a saint. I wanna be a saint, and it's become more common. It feels like in the past 10 or 15 years, maybe. I don't remember anybody talking like that in college. Maybe because we were not focused enough on sanctity. So there's a flaw there too. But I I do think that that that language, I wanna be a saint, what's not in that language? God is nowhere to be found in that claim, in that desire. I.

Pat Millea [00:13:28]:
I. Right?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:29]:
I want this. Mhmm. I got smacked down hard when I was doing my 30 day retreat, and I was expressing the same thing to my director. It was Father Mark Toups. He does, like, a lot with Ascension stuff. Yeah. He's phenomenal. He's a spiritual director.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:42]:
And, I just talked about, like, yeah. I wanna be a saint. I wanna be a saint. He's like, hey. Do do you know what's gonna happen when you you get up to heaven and you meet Padre Pio? And I'm like, think he's gonna give me some revelation. And I'm like, what what? He's like, they're gonna say, can I tell you about Jesus?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:58]:
And then you're gonna go to Mary Magdalene. And she's like, can I tell you about Jesus? Because all heaven is about is the glory of how Jesus allowed us entrance into it. Yeah. And so maybe we should spend more time about you encountering Jesus here than about you telling me what you want to be. And it was one of those moments where I just, like, I paused. It changed the entire trajectory of my core, course of my retreat.

Kenna Millea [00:14:22]:
Well and I think of, like, isn't it the litany of humility, like, that I may that others may be holier than I had provided that I've become

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:29]:
As holy as

Kenna Millea [00:14:30]:
I should. And and, yeah, just that, like like, Lord, all I need is what you desire for me to have, Nothing more, nothing less. Yeah. So I was thinking on, I think it was page 55, the idea of this, like, distinction came into my mind of, in parenting that right care of my children

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:51]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:14:51]:
Is when I'm attentive to to the doing. Right? Attentive to, to just like this is in line with my values. To parent you in this way is reflective of who I believe I'm called to be as your mom. And wrong care is, what do I need to do to get you to be valedictorian, to get you to be to win that prize, to get you to be the, you know, all state athlete? Like and and it it shows up in me. Like, I am not immune to this. I don't know if that scandalizes you both, but, like, I am not immune to no. You both know me. But, I am not immune to this.

Kenna Millea [00:15:25]:
Don't look like that Father.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:26]:
Awkwardly look away, actually.

Kenna Millea [00:15:28]:
It's like I've I've heard your

Pat Millea [00:15:29]:
I don't know what you mean.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:30]:
Who is she talking about?

Pat Millea [00:15:32]:
But, no, even, like, really valuable Christian versions of that. So maybe it's not, I want my kid to be valedictorian. I want my kid to get the D1 scholarship. Maybe it's, I want my kid to be a saint. Right? That even that best possible hope for my child, that is still worry about the outcome. And at the end of the day, I do not decide on the eternal fate of my children.

Kenna Millea [00:15:55]:
I don't have control. I don't have control. That would be not living in reality to assume that I control this. Certainly, I influence it, but, again, it comes out of this place of my authenticity to go back to things we talked about in the first half of the book. Like, I parent because this is who I truly feel called to be to you as my child, not because I think it's going to result in something that is crazy making that's that's gonna make me feel nuts.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:20]:
As Foley summarized, the effort and the goal were one and the same for Therese. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:16:24]:
What page is that, Father?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:25]:
That's on page 54. It's a midway. And it's like, the effort and the goal were one and the same for Thérèse. And, like, the fact that I'm doing something with all of my heart, that is the goal.

Kenna Millea [00:16:36]:
Right. Right. Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:37]:
Rather than I'm only gonna do it if I get a result. And I I I I don't know. I I joke with some of my friends that I'm a perpetual, like, quitter or perpetual failure. Like, I picked up so many random hobbies. Like, I'm gonna get a guitar, and then I'm gonna play a guitar. And then I could learn 3 chords, and it hurt my fingers, so I quit. I'm gonna do this, and then I and then I quit. And it's like, I I rather than just saying, like, how can I enjoy the gift of today? And that's my goal.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:02]:
It's always endwards. Then then there's all this self condemnation that comes in, and it's this eye focus. It's like, what do they call that? When the water starts spinning around Whirlpool. Oh. Vortex. Vortex. It just sucks you in.

Pat Millea [00:17:13]:
Uh-huh. Well, I think of all the just, like yeah. The the armies of parents out there in the world who are living with the deep pain of a spouse or a child who has completely left the faith, you know. And and again, that is

Kenna Millea [00:17:29]:
Or, like, walked away from their values.

Pat Millea [00:17:31]:
Or walked away from their values. It's making choices that their parents did not raise them with and are objectively harmful to themselves and others, You know? And that that is that is the best desire that we can have for someone that we love and care about. But that's that distinction that Father Foley makes, like you were saying, on page 55. He says, the right care it's not it's not that we don't care what happens to our kids. That's not the answer. That's not the way out of this box. He says the right care is in our attentiveness in the doing. The wrong care is in our worry about the outcome.

Pat Millea [00:18:03]:
So so the big question for all of us, whether it's somebody who's left the faith or, whether there's something going on at work that is maybe somewhat out of my control, The right question is what can I do? Maybe the most I can do. There's nothing I can do but pray for this person that I will never meet or I don't talk to anymore. Maybe that's the most I can do. Maybe I can fast for their well-being. Maybe there is something tangible, something action oriented that I can do, but not being obsessed over the outcome. Doing what is in my control, letting the rest be up to the Lord.

Kenna Millea [00:18:37]:
And I think sometimes the thing that we can do is let go of our expectations, which is where the chapter continues to go, especially on page 56. I loved that he said in the middle of the page, Therese did feel the sting of ingratitude. Yeah. Like, I'm like, yes. She had feelings. They were upset sometimes. Yes. Saints have upset feelings.

Kenna Millea [00:18:55]:
However, she did not become trapped by her feelings because she didn't bring expectations to situations. And on the top of page 57, that first full paragraph, the reason we often give grudgingly is that we feel that something is being taken from us. And he talks about resentment there. When we have inwardly decided to give before we are asked, the feeling that something is being taken from us disappears because we already made a choice to give it away. And I think resentment is something for me, for my clients, like, we talk about so often from our related to our parents, related to our spouses, and related to our kids. Like, all of these critical relationships in our life, we hold these expectations of what they will do to repay us for our love and our sacrifice and our suffering, forgetting that the love, the sacrifice, and the suffering, like, that was that that was the good for us, actually. Like, it was good for our soul to love and to sacrifice and to give. And and we had our eyes set on this expectation that never comes.

Kenna Millea [00:19:56]:
And so naturally, we're like, there's a gap. There's a gap.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:59]:
So this is the mic drop moment where the things come together. Like, you know, I wanna be a saint. I wanna be a saint. Okay. Then do what is sanctity and love without condition, because the saints have no condition just like God has no condition. Yeah. And so, like, there's another it says, Therese was not hurt by the ingratitude of others because there were no strings attached to her charity. She gave freely.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:20:24]:
And so 56 again? It is page 56. Yes. Like, whenever we say, I wanna be a saint, okay, well, then love without condition. If you're loving without condition, then I have no expectations that someone's gonna receive me, to understand me. I mean, what what is that prayer of Francis, that I may not so much seek to be understood?

Pat Millea [00:20:43]:
So not to under Yeah. To be understood as to understand.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:20:47]:
Yes. I mean, it's just this whole understanding that, like, okay. Be be unconditional, and you will find yourself on the path to holiness, but no one wants that. They want the badge.

Pat Millea [00:20:56]:
If there was one section that was difficult for me in this book, it was this section right now.

Kenna Millea [00:21:01]:
Really?

Pat Millea [00:21:01]:
Oh, man. Because what is my main source of anger and resentment in my life? It is when my children do something that I think is mine, and they take it from me accidentally.

Kenna Millea [00:21:15]:
Like, free time, sleep, quiet, food.

Pat Millea [00:21:16]:
Let's say in theory say a child decides to wake up at 5:45 in the morning Mhmm. And I have decided or earlier the night before Your alarm was that I am owed my alarm. Right? That at at, excuse me, 6:20, 6:30, that is when I will wake up. And, oh, wrath be upon the person who decides to arise me from my slumber before 6:20 in the morning because that is my time. Just this total misappropriation of what is mine, and getting back to, again, living in reality, authentic living, none of this is mine. It's all gift. So it's appropriate and most sane producing, to make up a phrase, for me to just give that gift to other people freely.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:04]:
And that's pain that's it's painful to hear you recount that because it convicts me in a different level. As you give the example with your children, like, there's times where on my day off Mhmm. Like, I get an emergency call, and I am so mad. And, of course, like, who who plans an emergency?

Pat Millea [00:22:22]:
Like How dare you be on death's door on a Monday?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:25]:
I know. It's just it's one of those things where, like, there's, like, this sense of, like, this is mine. Yeah. And as soon as it gets encroached, my initial responses and, like, well, let me pray about it, Lord. How do you want me to carry this? Or let me be an intimacy with you. It's just something was taken. I'm gonna throw a fit, and then I'll come back to you, Lord, in prayer tomorrow morning, and I'm just gonna grumble for the whole hour. And then I'm gonna be nasty the whole week because I didn't get what was mine. And it's like, if I would have just simply held it lightly and say, okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:53]:
I'm gonna do this and then come back. Give me the grace, Lord, to sustain me. I could've maintained peace. Mhmm. And what was taken wouldn't be seen as a sacrifice, but actually something like, okay. You're asking this of me. I respond, and then I move on to the next thing. But we get caught up, and we lose everything.

Pat Millea [00:23:10]:
Yeah. That that's a a good, probably, transition point into this idea of charity as well of looking at things in the lens of love, of self gift. Chapter 5 is on the divine perspective of charity, and Father Foley talks about these these examples in Therese's excuse me. Starting with Thomas Merton's life, but also in Therese's life of seeing with God's perspective, seeing the world the way God does.

Kenna Millea [00:23:36]:
Yeah. And I think, I I try in my best moments when I'm really struggling with another human to be like, Lord, grant me your divine sight, like, to pray about how do you see them. And I I imagine it came from this book. At the bottom of page 62 in particular, Father Foley says, love has the power to see into the life of things. Choosing to look beyond the irritating behavior of people in order to perceive the best in them is not some Pollyanna exercise. It is choosing, again, that word, to focus on that which is most real in them. And then further on, he says, charity grounds us in reality and thus helps to keep us sane. And I just I loved this because it's the first of all, just the both and, the reality of, like, absolutely.

Kenna Millea [00:24:25]:
Every single one of us has irritating idiosyncrasies and quirks. We have our weaknesses, our shortcomings, and our shadow sides, and, also, there's more to that story. And, again, in my conversation with Father Foley in the episode two before this, he gave a great, example from, Teresa of Avila's writings in the interior castle about this as well. But but just in this moment, I think about how practically, Pat, you and I have this, tradition of what as often as we can, we safeguard Saturday mornings for each of us to take turns, going to Mass with one child. And so we go to daily Mass, and then we take them on a little outing. Usually, it's like a donut and coffee or something really simple, but, like, an hour away. And what often happens is we will if we lose track of, like, whose turn it is and whatever, we'll go like, well, who needs it?

Pat Millea [00:25:18]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:25:18]:
And it usually is about what child are we struggling to love the most. Yeah. And we choose lately, it's been one kid in particular, but that was like that was like, that kid has gone out a lot lately. Like like, every time we have free choice, that child goes.

Pat Millea [00:25:32]:
There is a preferential preferential option for the poor there. Yeah. But maybe not to the neglect of all our other children.

Kenna Millea [00:25:39]:
Right. Right. But but I think that has been so like, that comes out of this wisdom. Right? Like, of I I need to remember, like, my delight in that child. Like, I need to see not just how that kid leaves their clothes everywhere and loses every lunchbox and water bottle, and it's just a real pain in my behind. But, like, I need to remember, like, the goodness and the sweetness and the beauty. And so I think that's kind of a practical way, that that we can live out this charity that Therese shows us.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:06]:
Mhmm. The the first Corinthians 13 is, like, one of the most important things about charity, you know, in the scriptures just because it gives out, like, love is this, love is this. And everyone uses it at their wedding and which is great because I don't know about your vocation, but love's pretty important.

Pat Millea [00:26:23]:
Kind of. Yep.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:23]:
It's not it's not a Hallmark card. Like, it actually means something. And if we if we do not have love and and fully, I think, beautifully articulates this and actually draws us into the gospel on page, 64 when it says, when we are on the lookout for someone to make a mistake, we become blind. The scribes and Pharisees were blind to the beauty of a miracle taking place before their very eyes because all of their sight was lying and waiting for Jesus to make a mistake. And and so this is one of the things in first Corinthians 13 is love doesn't rejoice in the wrong. It rejoices in the right. Yeah. And this is often where we can kinda find our heart.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:05]:
Have we become you know, basically, are we not anchored in Christ because we're literally waiting, like, I can't wait for this to mess up Oh. Or I can't wait for this to befall them or, like, come sweet karma justice. You know?

Pat Millea [00:27:17]:
That schadenfreude, like, my pleasure in someone else's pain.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:20]:
You become blind to reality.

Kenna Millea [00:27:22]:
We talk about that in therapy, especially in couples therapy as positive and negative sentiment override. And the I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:28]:
English.

Kenna Millea [00:27:29]:
And the and the idea that when I'm in a state of positive sentiment override, I'm just giving you the benefit of the doubt. You know, the same event can happen. And the way that I read it, we could talk about narratives, which I know, Father, you love speaking in that language too. I'm not the only one with the jargon around here, but but, but when I when, you know, Pat's, like, the trash can gets left on the curb and I slam into it with my car, like I do every Monday morning, again, and when I'm in positive sentiment override, I go, oh my gosh. He had all 7 kids getting out the door by 7 AM. Oh my goodness. Of course, he didn't have time to move the trash can and think about the path of my car, whatever. When I'm in negative sentiment override, I'm like, that in what? Unthoughtful

Pat Millea [00:28:12]:
I can't wait for this word.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:28:14]:
She can't even get the words out. There's so much frustration.

Kenna Millea [00:28:16]:
I was like I was like, man, can I no? I can't say that. Okay. So but I think bad thoughts. And so, like, that is that negative sentiment override. What is that expectation? Back to that word. Expectation I have. What is it that I'm hoping to see? Because I will find evidence to support whatever the story is in my head. Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:28:33]:
So if it's one of charity, I will continue on the path of charity. And if it's not, not real.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:28:38]:
So I use that in direction, but I call it thresholds.

Kenna Millea [00:28:41]:
Okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:28:41]:
So I'll say you will endure someone's behavior, and you'll overlook all of their faults until you cross over a threshold where they do something which in your mind is just unforgivable or not okay, and then you debt collect. Mhmm. And all the things that you overlooked don't matter anymore because you cross that one threshold, and then boom, it's all erased. Whereas if you don't hit that threshold, you overlook everything. And so it's just this interesting thing because we can be very loving people, but we have the stipulation as I will love you as long as x, y, or z.

Pat Millea [00:29:17]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:29:18]:
And as soon as that thing happens, checkbook's coming out, and you're paying back all you owe me. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:29:24]:
And that charity really does, change our perspective on situations, but maybe especially people, in in the best way. There's a toward the end of chapter 5 here on page 71, Father Foley says, the warmth of charity softens our mental rigidity in which our vision has become frozen in judgmentalness and allows us to see the beauty that is before us. And I just think of all the different times in my life that I have jumped to a snap judgment of somebody on a first impression that has been totally unfair, unfounded, or even if it's not unfair, even if it's grounded in reality, that I have now created an identity of a person around one flaw or one mistake. And in my best moments, then the Holy Spirit sneaks in and I cooperate in charity to see the beauty of this person before me. They're they're not defined by one mess up, by one sin, by one character flaw.

Kenna Millea [00:30:21]:
And I think too on on page 67, when I would I would guess, Father Foley would say, like, this is kind of the thesis of the book. He talks about Therese seeing all things in the light of eternity, and that light is one of charity. Right? Like, in in the light of mercy, in the light of charity, in the light of God's unconditional love. I mean, so many of these things we've talked about. Like, she saw it in that perspective, and it kept perspective. It kept the small things small. And, you know, what's that thing? Don't sweat the small stuff, and most of it is small stuff. Like, that's that cliche.

Kenna Millea [00:30:57]:
Like, she saw that. She had that, ability to borrow God's wisdom and his sight, and it allowed her to maintain her sanity, like, to see things for what they really were.

Pat Millea [00:31:08]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. So moving on to the very final chapter of our beautiful short little book together. Chapter 6, an attended life and authentic life, which is just the the beautiful summary of everything that Father Foley has reflected on in Therese's life up through this entire book study so far. He says that the deepest excuse me. He says the soul's deepest regret is that it hasn't heeded its true vocation, the call to love. And he goes through a couple of vignettes about people who are looking back on their life, and they're identifying the ways that they've been motivated by things that aren't love, by by work, career, achievement, success, whatever. And looking back in regret at the lost opportunities to love people and their families, people around them, and that so many of those calls to love are right in front of our noses in this very moment.

Pat Millea [00:32:02]:
And he I love Charles Dickens for a lot of reasons but he brings up that image of Scrooge that I had never considered before in my life. I've I've seen and read A Christmas Carol a 100 times, but never have I thought, okay, after the most dramatic conversion that a sinner can have, where is he sent right back to his little counting house to his same life in front of the same people that he was raging at 3 days before? Because for most of us, not everybody, but for most of us that's our mission is to live authentically, to live in reality, in charity, right in front of the people that God has placed us.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:37]:
So I mean, just kind of going off that, I love that point as well when he says we actually kind of envy Scrooge. And he he beautifully just says it because we all want that transformative moment

Kenna Millea [00:32:47]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:48]:
Where we can approach things in a different way and go back into our life with gratitude. And so we we see what happened with intrusion. This is why everyone goes, hey. How many times? A 100 times you read it and watched it and that and we keep going back to it because, like, we want to be that person that knows we're we're not as grateful as we should be. We maybe we are scroogy, and we just want something that wakes us up to make us go back into our life with gratitude.

Kenna Millea [00:33:10]:
Well and I think that that is the good news and the bad news. Right? Like, the good news is that we have what's what's necessary to to be holy and to be sane, because we all have a life filled with choices. I'm thinking about, what he's saying here at the top of page 77. Love is a step by step journey into the heartland of the ordinary, choice upon choice, choice within choice. And so I say that that's the good and the bad news because the good news, we have we have what's necessary. Right? I have a very ordinary life that I that is filled with myriad choices, And the bad news is, yeah, there's nothing magical about that. It it's within my decisions. It's within it's how I'm gonna use my agency and my will, what perspective I'm gonna choose to have.

Kenna Millea [00:33:54]:
That's what's gonna make it different, and and that can be disheartening. It's not as maybe glamorous and glitzy as, you know, we would have hoped, but that's the truth.

Pat Millea [00:34:05]:
But what is glamour and glitz but the admiration of others? That that we have this fallen human inclination to want things to be attractive to others. I I want the fame. I want the adulation. I want it to seem like my life is worthwhile to humans. And Therese just fought that at every turn. There's, Father Foley in in maybe kind of the the the cornerstone of your approach kinda to your work, your clinical work, your family life, your entire walk with God. Father Foley says on page 78, In the introduction to this book, I said that I would be not would not be writing about the spirituality of Saint Therese as a way to holiness but as a means to sanity. However, as I draw near to the conclusion of this book, I realized that I could not separate the 2.

Pat Millea [00:34:56]:
For to be deeply sane is to be deeply holy. And that that beautiful connection, the the hand in hand between those two realities, the two things that God has made us for. He's made us for himself in sanctity, and he's made us for reason and order and fulfilled lives for his glory and sanity.

Kenna Millea [00:35:19]:
Well, I would say too he yes. He's made us for for ordered lives, but he's made us for this life and he's given us the the ability to be sane so that we can be in relationship with others and not lose ourselves. So if we think about the great the great commandment to love God and to love others, like, those are those are intertwined in this. Right? Like, to give us the ability to to love him and to ascent our will to his and also to hold on to ourselves so we have something to give as self gift to others. I think at the top of the page where you're just quoting, Pat, page 78 when he says, to love is a fearful thing

Pat Millea [00:35:54]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:35:55]:
Because it threatens to change our lives, to rob us of what we cling to, time, energy, and the like. However, by not loving, we deprive ourselves of what we need, God's life. And I get to work with a lot of moms who have really complex feelings about their vocation, and understandably so. But to to acknowledge that that, yeah, loving a child into being is a beautiful thing. It's a privilege. It's also really freaking scary, and, like, it's it's vulnerable and it's hard. And I think that's what sanity and sanctity gives us, though. It it it gives us the tools we need to do that, to love God, to love neighbor, to be courageous.

Kenna Millea [00:36:37]:
I it it requires courage from where I sit.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:40]:
You know, the the sanctity and sanity piece. I mean, this this may maybe this will sound a little judgmental, and it could be, and you can call me on it totally. I mean, priests have lots of faults as well. But when I'm seeing someone in the parish who maybe is, like, collecting devotions and is, like, you know, perpetually on their knees. And they're like, you know, like, Father you know, like, people are talking before Mass, and people should be quiet in here. And, you know, have you done this holy will book, and you need this, and you need this, and you mean to be telling this to your people. And, like, there are all these declarations of what people should be doing, and yet and they're collecting all of these, you know, holy things, and, like, they would heaven forbid, they would ever walk into any secular environment. Right? Because I would never defile myself.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:24]:
Like, I encounter that person. I think someone's off. Mhmm. Like, there's something that's not ordered to the good, and I'm I'm even though the person's presenting as holy, right, and all checking all the boxes Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:39]:
There's a little bit of insanity going on. Mhmm. Whereas, like, if someone who walked off the street who didn't know Christianity encountered them, they'd be like, woah. Okay. I'm gonna go across the street. Please don't follow me. Mhmm. Whereas oftentimes in my parish, the people who are just living completely ordinary lives, and they're just raising their kids.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:57]:
They're coming to confession because they know that they're weak. And they're like, you know you know, hey, Father. You know, I I let my kids watch this program. It wasn't the greatest, and, like, I really am sorry about it. And we talked about it afterwards, and they're just sincerely approaching the life of grace. And, like, I see that, and I'm like, that's sanity, and that is holiness. And I almost wanna, like, bow before them or, like, some like, figuratively take off my shoes because it's like this, like, burning bush moment where, like, you are encountering the incarnation of love before you, and sanctity and sanity have come together. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:38:34]:
Mhmm. Is So maybe was it judgmental? Like, feel free

Pat Millea [00:38:37]:
No. No. I think that's that's there's reality to that. You know? It it feels like, you know, not identifying any individual like this because that would be judgmental, but that's the caution of the Pharisee and the tax collector in the temple. Right? You know, thank God I'm not like those people, those sinners out there versus, God, I am a sinner, and I know it. And I'm not concerned about their sins because all I'm responsible for is mine. I I think there's a key distinction there. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:39:07]:
So here we are, friends, at the end of a beautiful book, a holy book, thankfully for you listening maybe, a short book. As we wrap things up, any closing thoughts about what this book has meant to you, what you think it might be calling you to do, or or what it might mean for folks listening today?

Kenna Millea [00:39:28]:
Yeah. I mean, for me, I think just this there there's have been a lot of moments of conviction, and reminders that to well, number 1, to be gentle with myself when I see this, but but to really spend time regularly allowing the Lord to to point out places where maybe my heart isn't as purely, focused on on his will and pleasing him, and and to find, yeah, that that there may be ways he's inviting me into into more littleness, in life. So I think that's my biggest takeaway at the moment.

Pat Millea [00:40:03]:
Yeah. Father?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:04]:
Yeah. I'd say, honestly, mine, and what I'm so grateful I I've gone through this book a couple times now, and and just it's been fruitful even just talking with you both about it, is, I think just to slow down and to simplify because I I get in my mind every so often. And if I just did this, this, this, this, and this, then I would be holy. If I just did this, this, this, and this, then I'd be a good priest. And at at the core of what Therese is, and this is why it's a little ways, if I can just kinda stay in my own lane, go into the sanctuary of my heart, love heroically, not expect anything in return, and just be at peace with whatever comes, I would actually become holy. And it's just it's just I don't know. I I'm glad that the book is short because it makes that point too. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:52]:
It's not complicated. Like, just just slow down, ease up, and focus on what's important.

Pat Millea [00:40:58]:
And even reading a 300 page book can be an achievement. Yeah. Something to accomplish. Yeah. I think for me, the, you know, in the very end of the book, page 80, Father Foley quotes Therese's great proclamation that, oh Jesus, my love, my vocation, at last I have found it, my vocation is love. Thus I shall be everything, and thus my dream will be realized. That that all of us have these great dreams for our life, and and most of them are very, very good. You know, great beautiful families, healthy kids, healthy marriages, successful in business, no speeding tickets, whatever your dream is.

Pat Millea [00:41:36]:
Like, just very, like, laudable good dreams. But Therese is bringing us back to the center that years before Vatican II proclaimed the universal call to holiness, which is good, she did it first. She has receipts, you know, that that her vocation is love. Like, that that kind of consolation and reminder, I think, that my vocation is not to be the most successful business owner in the world. My vocation my primary vocation even is not to love you, Kenna, well or to love our kids well, but there's a vocation that runs deeper than that. And the beauty of that vocation of love is that it does feed into my marriage and my parenting and my work and my rest that all of those get their life from this vocation, from God's heart. And it's just the it's the perfect place to end a book like this. The very final words of the book on 82, Father Foley says, it is the love of God dwelling in our actions that makes us whole.

Pat Millea [00:42:36]:
It is love that keeps us sane, that that our sanity is rooted in the love of God. And when those influence our actions, then we become whole people. You could almost say that we have a whole life with we live with God's love.

Kenna Millea [00:42:52]:
It's as if we read this before we end up the podcast. It's true.

Pat Millea [00:42:57]:
Friends, it's been such a joy. What a great opportunity to walk through this book together, to be with you, to be with one another. Brief challenge by choice. What's a way that you can embrace this vocation of love? What's a way that you can, like the chapters today talked about, love freely? What are ways that you can look at others through the perspective of love and to see the beauty in the midst of the complexity and the mess. What are the ways that you can see your own beauty in the midst of the mess? And how can you live this authentic, this this holy life of love? With that in mind, Father, can you send us off to do this good work?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:30]:
I'd be honored. In the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. From 1st Corinthians 13, love is patient. Love is kind. It does not envy. It does not boast. It is not pride.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:44]:
It does not dishonor others. It is not self seeking. It is not easily angered. It keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. Heavenly Father, may we be your love in this world that as those who encounter us may see this love and see your very present presence.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:17]:
We ask all this through Christ our lord. Amen. Amen. Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Saint of Therese of Lisieux.

Pat Millea [00:44:22]:
Pray for us. Thanks for our little book club here, friends.

Kenna Millea [00:44:26]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:44:26]:
I appreciate you. I appreciate you bringing this into our lives, Kenna, we appreciate all of you listening out there for joining our little book club. Thank you for your for reading along, for listening along. Feel free to check out the discussion questions and the info that we'll have in the description and in the show notes here. You can please, please let us know what's on your mind. What did you take out of this book? What were your favorite passages? What what questions are still lingering for you? You can send us an email by visiting thiswholelifepodcast.com. You can send us a message on Instagram at Facebook @thiswholelifepodcast.

Pat Millea [00:44:59]:
And let's just move forward. Let's live this life of sanctity and sanity. This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Kenna Millea [00:45:32]:
We got our mics. Check 1, 2, 1, 2.

Pat Millea [00:45:34]:
Check 1, 2. We're ready.

Kenna Millea [00:45:36]:
Hear me?

Pat Millea [00:45:38]:
Mama, can you hear me?

Kenna Millea [00:45:41]:
What is that?

Pat Millea [00:45:41]:
I can't remember. Some musical from What's it from?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:45:44]:
It it so it's Frozen, but then Deadpool took it on.

Pat Millea [00:45:48]:
No. Before that

Kenna Millea [00:45:50]:
It's

Pat Millea [00:45:50]:
No, because he makes a comment about how that is the same as do you wanna build a snowman. Hold on. Can you hear me?

Kenna Millea [00:45:57]:
Oh, I had to inhale my lunch, but now we're gonna look this up.

Pat Millea [00:45:59]:
It is from, this is important.

Kenna Millea [00:46:03]:
This is blooper right now.

Pat Millea [00:46:05]:
Papa, can you hear me?

Kenna Millea [00:46:07]:
Yeah. What is it?

Pat Millea [00:46:08]:
Is Barbra Streisand

Kenna Millea [00:46:09]:
Yes.

Pat Millea [00:46:09]:
The title role in Yentl.