Ep51 Holy Friendship w/ Fr. Luke Marquard

"I no longer call you slaves, because a slave does not know what his master is doing. I have called you friends, because I have told you everything I have heard from my Father."
~ John 15:15

Friendship is one of the highest experiences of human life, but it can also be the source of some of our greatest pains and struggles. Why do we desire deep and abiding friendship? Are all friendships the same? What does the Lord desire in our friendships, and which friends are best for us?

In episode 51 of This Whole Life, Pat is again joined by guest Fr. Luke Marquard to delve into the complex and profound topic of holy friendships. They explore the various levels of friendship, the importance of deep connections, and the role of faith in nurturing meaningful relationships. Drawing from personal experiences and insightful reflections, they highlight the beauty of seeing others as gifts and the pursuit of heavenly glory within friendships. Fr. Luke shares valuable insights on the influence of virtue, intentionally seeking of like-minded individuals while allowing ourselves to be challenged and stretched by our friends. With heartfelt discussions on the challenges of loneliness, manipulation in relationships, and the importance of incorporating Christ as the center of it all, this episode offers invaluable guidance for listeners seeking to deepen their connections and appreciate the gift of true friendships.

Fr. Luke Marquard is pastor of St. Joseph Catholic Church in West St. Paul, Minnesota.

Episode 51 Show Notes

Chapters:
0:00: Intro, Over/Under and Highs & Hards
16:19: Focus on Friendship
22:57: The Three Levels of Friendship
33:40: What does bad friendship look like?
40:06: The parish as a source of friendship
46:21: When it's hard to make good friends
58:19: Challenge By Choice

Questions for Reflection & Discussion:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. Who are your best friends? What makes them so valuable to you?
3. Can you identify people in your life at all three levels of friendship? What feelings or reflections do you have about the people at those levels?
4. How might healthy recreation and solitude lead to better and deeper friendships?
5. What is the Christian vision of friendship, and how is it distinct from a more worldly version of friendship?
6. When has someone been a true friend to you, and how did it impact your life?

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

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Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro, Over/Under and Highs & Hards
• 16:19 Focus on Friendship
• 22:57 The Three Levels of Friendship
• 33:40 What does bad friendship look like?
• 40:06 The parish as a source of friendship
• 46:21 When it's hard to make good friends
• 58:19 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:00:00]:
Like, I don't have to compromise with this group because I know where I'm gonna be known. And where I'm gonna be loved. That's my desire anyway.

Pat Millea [00:00:18]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast along with my bride, Kenna, a licensed marriage and family therapist. This is the stuff she and I talk about all the time, doing dishes, in the car, on a date. We're excited to bring you this podcast for educational purposes. It's not therapy or a substitute for mental health care. So come on in. Have a seat at our dining room table and join the conversation with us. We are so glad you're here.

Pat Millea [00:01:12]:
It is This Whole Life friends and we are glad that you are with us. I use the word friends all the time I just realized and only in this episode is it as fitting and appropriate as it could ever possibly be. Because today we have the great privilege of talking about the value of friendship and holy friendship with Father Luke Marquard, who is our home pastor at Saint Joe's here in the Twin Cities and because of a little road trip that we took to Greece a few months ago became a friend of ours as well. So Father Luke, welcome aboard.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:01:47]:
Thanks for having me. Good to be back.

Pat Millea [00:01:49]:
Yeah. Good to be back with you as well. Yep. If you're listening now, you may, remember Father Luke from our episode on superstition that we did in the city of Athens in Greece. We do not have an Acropolis in our backyard right now, Father. But

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:02:04]:
Nor are we recording on an orb.

Pat Millea [00:02:06]:
That's correct. Yeah. We have microphones with a little better sound quality than when the 4 of us were crammed into a hotel room recording at midnight or whatever it was.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:02:17]:
It was late. It was late. We were delayed.

Pat Millea [00:02:20]:
This is a little bit

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:02:21]:
We won't say more.

Pat Millea [00:02:22]:
More reasonable. Correct. Well, for the sake of helping everybody get to know you a little bit, Father, and for the sake of just having fun, because we are here to rejoice in the Lord as well as offer some instruction and accompaniment, hopefully. We're gonna play a little game called over under, and it's gonna go like this. I'm gonna ask you a variety of questions about your your life, your experience, things that you've done, people that you know. But there's gonna be a number associated with it, and all you have to do is tell me if what's true for you is over or under that number. And if you wanna expound on that, you can. If you'd rather just say nothing else but over under and move on, that's great too.

Pat Millea [00:03:04]:
Okay? So

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:03:05]:
Over, over, under, over, under, under.

Pat Millea [00:03:09]:
That's your answer?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:03:10]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:03:10]:
Alright. We'll see if that's true. Okay. Here we go. So starting with, over under 40 years of age. Over. Over. Okay.

Pat Millea [00:03:20]:
44. So far, 44. Alright. The best of the forties.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:03:25]:
Probably the ultimate age. We're ultimate age. Aquinas' treatment of the glorified body lately, and he says that we'll have, that perfect age where we get over the defects of childhood, but the defects of old age have not begun yet. And so you're looking at it.

Pat Millea [00:03:43]:
There it is. Model of human perfection right in front of me. I always had a weird reflection about the age of 33.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:03:51]:
Like Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:03:51]:
When I lived longer than Jesus, it made me feel strange for some reason, and I don't really know why. But whatever. There's no major spiritual significance. It just made me feel weird.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:04:00]:
Yeah. I was ordained at 33. That's about right.

Pat Millea [00:04:03]:
Does that feel appropriate? Yeah. It's Mary. The day you were crucified. That's right. I mean, resurrected. Sorry.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:04:09]:
All of it. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:04:11]:
Next up. Over under 27 years that you spent in school in your life. It's gonna take a little math.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:04:20]:
Some math. Mhmm. So 12th grade, 16th grade, 18th grade, 24th grade. It's close, but I'm gonna call it under.

Pat Millea [00:04:32]:
Probably under?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:04:32]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:04:33]:
Okay. Gotcha. Alright. Seminary gets tricky in there. That's a lot of years. Yeah. You're in

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:04:38]:
the ACE program. That was 2 years. Mhmm. Mhmm. So I think I think I'm at 24th grade.

Pat Millea [00:04:43]:
24th grade. Alright. Congratulations. That's great. No wonder you're so smart.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:04:47]:
That's right.

Pat Millea [00:04:49]:
Next up. Over under 2 siblings that you have.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:04:55]:
It's not possible to answer. No. I have 2 siblings. You

Pat Millea [00:04:58]:
it's a push? Alright. I should have done the the Vegas thing of making it 2 and a half. 2 and a half. Over an yeah. 2 and a half. So it's not a tie. Okay. So 2 siblings.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:05:08]:
Yeah. Oldest of 3.

Pat Millea [00:05:09]:
Oldest of 3.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:05:10]:
A younger brother and a younger sister.

Pat Millea [00:05:11]:
Nice. And they both know that you're in charge obviously because you're the oldest.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:05:15]:
Yeah. We'll pretend.

Pat Millea [00:05:17]:
Sure. Over under 10 years as an ordained priest.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:05:24]:
Over. I'll hit 11 on May 25th.

Pat Millea [00:05:28]:
Nice. Alright. Yeah. So just barely over 10? Barely. Okay. Man, that's great.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:05:33]:
Which is crazy to think about that it's already been a decade.

Pat Millea [00:05:37]:
Because it's a blink of an eye or because it feels like 30 years? It's fast. Okay. Fast. Good.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:05:41]:
Like, I'm almost a year at Saint Joe's.

Pat Millea [00:05:42]:
Right.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:05:43]:
That's fast.

Pat Millea [00:05:44]:
It's not wild. Yeah. I know. Blink, man. I'm telling you. Okay. So you may have to think about this a little bit and you can just guess. This one is probably not as easy to put a specific number on it.

Pat Millea [00:05:56]:
Over under 10 times that you have watched your favorite movie, And I would also like to know what movie it is, please.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:06:04]:
Easily over. Really? Yeah. And that, you know, that shifts. What's the right answer there? But probably The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou.

Pat Millea [00:06:15]:
Oh, seriously?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:06:16]:
Yeah. And it used to be one of these that because I was so familiar with it, I would just put it on when I was going to bed.

Pat Millea [00:06:24]:
Yep.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:06:25]:
Because it didn't matter if I fell asleep because I knew what was gonna happen. But that might be the most watched. I went through a a real big I Heart Huckabees phase. I can't recommend either of these, by the way, as your pastor.

Pat Millea [00:06:40]:
Correct. These are not church approved movies in a previous,

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:06:44]:
yes.

Pat Millea [00:06:45]:
And those are both Wes Anderson movies. Right?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:06:47]:
The first one is I don't know who did I Heart Huckabees, but it's definitely in that same

Pat Millea [00:06:50]:
Sure. That same kind of vibe. Yeah. I love the Royal Tenenbaums.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:06:54]:
Yes.

Pat Millea [00:06:54]:
It's so good. It's not I I don't know if I've seen it 10 times, but it's probably close if I haven't. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so great. Well, that's a glimpse into your sense of humor. If nothing else, that's good.

Pat Millea [00:07:05]:
Weird. Sorry. Your former sense of humor. Yeah. That's right. Over under 5 foreign countries that you have visited. Counting with his fingers. Over.

Pat Millea [00:07:17]:
Over. K.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:07:19]:
I mean, we just got 2, didn't we?

Pat Millea [00:07:21]:
We did. Yep. I I loved it made so happy that when we were in Greece we were in the nation they pronounced it this way so I'm not being weird they said Turkiye not not Turkey.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:07:31]:
You loved Turkiye.

Pat Millea [00:07:32]:
I loved it. I loved Turkiye. And I love the fact that I was in Asia for like 6 hours, but I could check it off my box. Right? So yeah. So those 2, you and I were in together. What else?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:07:44]:
Canada, Mexico Mhmm. Italy, Spain, England. Nice. I feel like I'm missing 1, but

Pat Millea [00:07:59]:
did you go to Iceland with those other Iceland. There you go. Okay. Gotcha. See?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:08:03]:
Sorry, Father.

Pat Millea [00:08:06]:
Okay. This one's a little spicy. You can, expound on this or not. Over. Over under. Well, we'll see. Won't we? Over under 3 girls that you dated before you entered seminary.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:08:21]:
Over to varying lengths.

Pat Millea [00:08:23]:
Gotcha. That makes sense.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:08:24]:
I'd say there were 2 and a half that were serious and one that was good.

Pat Millea [00:08:34]:
Yeah. Sure. Right. Exactly. Oh, I know how that goes. Yep. Alright. Over under 5 jobs that you had before you were ordained.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:08:45]:
Are we going to high school on this?

Pat Millea [00:08:47]:
Sure. Yep. All the way back.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:08:49]:
Dairy Queen.

Pat Millea [00:08:50]:
K.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:08:52]:
Walmart Radio Grill Okay. Yeah. The Faribault Daily News

Pat Millea [00:08:59]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:09:00]:
Conseco, Sigma Chi Fraternity headquarters, Guardian Angels. So over.

Pat Millea [00:09:11]:
So over. Okay. Alright.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:09:12]:
Those. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:09:13]:
A long way from Dairy Queen to Guardian Angels.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:09:17]:
Great job, Dairy Queen.

Pat Millea [00:09:18]:
Oh, I can only imagine.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:09:19]:
With a higher metabolism, great job.

Pat Millea [00:09:21]:
Correct. Yes. Just pay me in the soft serve.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:09:23]:
It would kill me now.

Pat Millea [00:09:26]:
2 more. Over under 100,000 miles currently on your vehicle.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:09:32]:
Just under.

Pat Millea [00:09:33]:
Really?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:09:33]:
Like, 97, 98.

Pat Millea [00:09:36]:
Creeping up there. Yeah. Okay. Alright. You gotta take a picture and be really cool with your friends when you hit 6 digits.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:09:42]:
I've thought about that a few times and then blown it completely Correct. Minutes later.

Pat Millea [00:09:47]:
Yep. Oh, I

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:09:47]:
was gonna do that.

Pat Millea [00:09:49]:
100,004 miles. Good job. Final one, most apt for our conversation today. Over under 5 friends from high school that you're still in touch with today on a somewhat regular basis? Under. Gotcha. Okay.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:10:06]:
Yep. There have been fits and starts Mhmm. With those. But, yeah, under.

Pat Millea [00:10:11]:
That makes sense. Gotcha. And we may get into a little more detail about that later on, but that's your kind of teaser for later on.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:10:17]:
So I was way off on my predictions.

Pat Millea [00:10:19]:
Yeah. I I kind of thought you were. I didn't wanna highlight it, but, it's okay. You're not psychic, and it'd be a big problem if you tried to be anyway. So it's okay. We love getting into highs and hards, Father. Now we know you a little bit better. What about the past week or couple weeks? What's been what's been high? What's been difficult?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:10:38]:
There have been a couple of great, I'll call them just sacramental highs. Mhmm. So we had our first round of first communions on Sunday, and at the end of the second Mass, at least, I can't remember if I did it at the first, I said, you know, your second holy communion could be tomorrow.

Pat Millea [00:10:59]:
Yeah. You did do that at our Mass too. That's right.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:11:01]:
And because our sub for Monday morning, got sick, I was covering the Monday morning, and there were 2 of them there.

Pat Millea [00:11:11]:
Oh, seriously?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:11:11]:
Receiving their second holy communion. So that was awesome, and just really encouraging, to see that and and the excitement, as they received. And then we had our confirmation at the Cathedral on Monday.

Pat Millea [00:11:25]:
Oh, wow.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:11:26]:
And, Bishop Williams just preached and was so good. And it it was just good as a priest, to see our bishop, sort of like a velvet hammer. Yeah. Gentle but firm, challenging those kids and their families. He used a term that I I'd never heard before, that just is is resonated with me. He said, Jesus' last commandment, do this in memory of me Mhmm. Became the Church's first commandment, the first precept, that we would be at Mass every Sunday. And the way he juxtaposed those really, caught me and then told a beautiful story about the witness, that one child can make in helping bring an entire family back, into the practice of the faith.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:12:25]:
So, yeah, it was really edified by his homily.

Pat Millea [00:12:28]:
It's beautiful. Yeah. Any hard lately that's been especially challenging at all?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:12:36]:
I think, really, just we're at this point at the parish where we're we're close, to making some hires that are really gonna help us but we're not there yet, and I think our whole staff feels it. Totally. Yeah. We're we're short, and we're beginning to feel the fatigue. You know, you begin with this excited sprint, and we're gonna be able to do this. And it's like, okay. Lord, please, soon. But all things considered Yeah.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:13:10]:
Not too hard.

Pat Millea [00:13:11]:
For sure. Yeah. But there's that reality with any job but parish staffs for sure when people are very happy to pick up the slack because they're they're generous. They wanna serve the parish well. But at a certain point, you kinda run out of human ability at some point. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:13:25]:
That's great. Well, I'm excited to see where that goes too. That'll be a beautiful opportunity. Yeah.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:13:30]:
How about for you?

Pat Millea [00:13:31]:
Yeah. Thanks. I, my high lately is that, I was telling you Kenna and I just got to go on, like, the shortest little work trip ever. We were we were out of the state of Minnesota for 15 total hours down to Missouri, Saint Louis area, and back. So it was like lickety split, no time for fun. This was not a vacation, but it was it just it it's great to be able to do, these, like, kind of work things with Kenna, who I love on a marital relational level, but be able to serve with her is really beautiful. Some of the folks down there were talking about how encouraging it is for them to see a husband and wife working together with things that affect mental health and marriage and parenting and family life that one of them said, you know, we we get a lot of female speakers to talk about this stuff, but it's really rare to have a male and especially a couple to be able to manage this together. So it was just it's a great opportunity, and I I just love traveling with her and spending time with her in general.

Pat Millea [00:14:35]:
So it's pretty great. Nice. It broke my heart a little bit that I didn't get to go to a Cardinals game when I was down in St. Louis. It's my favorite baseball team, but that's not my hard. It was just a minor sadness. My hard is that actually because of that conversation, I'd I've spent a a little bit of time last night and this morning reflecting on the the reality that so here what we do at This Whole Life, what the broader organization, the Martin Center for Integration does is all about faith and mental health. Doing the best of both a sound integration of the human person, things like that.

Pat Millea [00:15:11]:
And if what I spend so much time right now in this kind of work ministry life doing is around mental health and faith, Being very aware of the reality that men have a really difficult time taking either of those two things seriously. So just this sense of, like, sadness in a way that I think for a lot of reasons, not because men are bad, but just for a lot of different cultural reasons men have become really comfortable just giving up their ground when it comes to faith and their own mental health, caring for the mental health of others and being in good complex holy relationships and just but on the flip side too, kind of motivated to continue doing things about it to hopefully lead men into a better space where they're able to be just more authentic, I think, in what

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:16:02]:
Sure.

Pat Millea [00:16:02]:
God has for them. So yeah.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:16:04]:
That sounds like a series.

Pat Millea [00:16:06]:
Yeah. Exactly. Right? Tell me about it. Yeah. Stay tuned. Father Luke will be back to tell men how to live their lives.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:16:14]:
There's a great need. Seriously? Great need.

Pat Millea [00:16:17]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Well, speaking of great need, I am really excited about this because you and well, you brought this conversation up to Kenna, first of all. And, it should be a vote of confidence for how highly we think of you that when when somebody, you know, when somebody comes to us and they say, hey, I would love to come on your podcast and talk about things

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:16:40]:
Did I say that?

Pat Millea [00:16:41]:
You not in so many words, but they're oftentimes the oftentimes the people people have their own axe to grind sometimes. Right? So people come to us, and sometimes we just have to, in a charitable way, say, you know what? I don't know if that's in our plan for the podcast coming up soon. But you went came up to Kenna and wanted to talk about holy friendship, and our immediate first thought was, yes. That sounds great, and he's the perfect one to do it. So, so I guess just to to get things started, what is it that got you kind of reflecting on and and thinking about the idea of friendship within a context of faith?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:17:17]:
Yeah. I think primarily borne of, just a vision that I have for the parish which isn't my vision, but the vision for the parish, coming from Acts 2:42, telling us about the early church. They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles, to the common life or the fellowship, the koinonia, the breaking of the bread and the prayers. And how the Lord's placed on my heart a desire that the parish would be a place where people can find true friendship, good friendship. And I thought, well, if that's something that the Lord's putting on my heart and that I desire for people, I should probably learn something about that. And so, you know, I'm no expert on friendship. I haven't studied this extensively. I've failed miserably as a friend many, many times, but it's of great interest to me.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:18:16]:
And in in all of that, I found a book, by John Cuddeback, called True Friendship. Mhmm. And it just spoke to me the way that he outlines Aristotle's treatment of friendship and dives into that, and he brings in the Christian perspective, the, the authority of the saints and our Lord himself, and just this role that friendship plays in our lives. Mhmm. And, yeah, so it's like my desire that the parish would be a place where our people are known and loved, where they know and love, and a place where even if they don't, necessarily find that perfect friendship, which can be difficult to find, at least it's a place where everyone around them is a good candidate, for good friendship. And they themselves, are good candidates for that.

Pat Millea [00:19:08]:
Yeah. Yeah. What what have been your experiences just growing up and coming of age, even into adulthood, of good friends, whether whether you kind of stumbled upon it or sought it out on purpose? When have friends really helped you along your path in your life?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:19:26]:
Yeah. I can think of a few the one thing I might say is just, like, as I learned more about friendship, at least in Aristotle's model, I came to realize that I've spent most of my life, at what he calls the pleasant friendship, which is one that's born of, like, common interests. So you can think of, like, your fishing buddy, or it's based on location. And so, which stings a little bit, honestly, as I look back and make that recognition. But I can pick out a few, times in my life where people at least have exhibited to me that good friendship or that true friendship. Mhmm. And I've seen that mostly in the way, that they've been fearless in confronting me, frankly, and not out of a desire, to put down or humiliate, but out of a desire to bring something better out of me. Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:20:27]:
And there are 2 that, are coming to mind as I I say that. 1 is, a college friend named Ashley, who really with one conversation, I think, changed the trajectory, of my life. Wow. And she said something so simple, but it was one of those things that cut to the heart. Mhmm. I was making all sorts of excuses, and I ended with whatever I was saying with, I'm not doing anything that bad. And she said, but you're not doing anything good. And there was just that changed.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:21:06]:
It changed me, and that was born of, like, her friendship, her love for me. And this is gonna seem a little strange given that he's such a frequent guest on your podcast here, but Father Nathan

Pat Millea [00:21:22]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:21:22]:
Has shown me that good friendship, that true friendship. I mean, if we get into it, I I I would have some some reasons probably why because of the man he is. Yeah. But, like, I've given him plenty of reasons to just say, alright. This isn't gonna work. And he comes back time and again, extending that hand of true friendship, along with, just honestly telling me what I need to hear.

Pat Millea [00:21:54]:
Yeah.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:21:55]:
I think that's a mark of a good friend who will tell you what you need to hear even if it's not easy.

Pat Millea [00:22:01]:
I'd love that.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:22:02]:
Because he has your good in mind. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:22:05]:
I really wish that I had had that line from your friend, Ashley, all the times that a high schooler told me in youth ministry, well, it's not like I killed anybody. Right? I'm like, I had responses. Don't get me wrong. I said a lot of things, but that that is such a pithy and really, like you said, not shaming, not humiliating, such a motivating truth

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:22:26]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:22:26]:
That is is are we made to just not be that bad? Right. Or is there something we're actually made for? Is there a way to orient myself toward the good and really be capable of that? You know?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:22:38]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:22:39]:
Oh, that's beautiful. What about so you mentioned the the idea of Aristotle's level of, you know, pleasant friendship, basically. What what other kind of truths or or distillations from Aristotle and and from, John Cuddeback's work did you kind of find useful for yourself?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:22:56]:
Yeah. So after he he outlines the levels and where he wants to get us to is that true friendship, that perfect friendship. And so Aristotle will give us 3, levels. The first is the useful friendship or the friendship of utility. Mhmm. And we can think here of I have a friendship with a person because there's some sort of benefit that I can get out of that. Mhmm. And I guess as soon as I read that, I thought this kid named Mark, who, you know, he was 2 houses down when I was growing up and don't know much about him.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:23:29]:
He was one of the neighborhood kids, but wasn't one that I sought out, to spend time with until he got, and I'm gonna date myself here, but until he got the Sega Genesis.

Pat Millea [00:23:39]:
Yep.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:23:40]:
And then it was like

Pat Millea [00:23:41]:
I knew it was gonna be a video game system the moment you said that.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:23:44]:
Oh, Mark. Buddy. Hey, buddy. What's going on? Right? And so, you know, that can be good, but it's not great friendship. And then the one above that is that pleasant friendship, and this is that friendship between you and another, that's born of a common interest. You have a good time together. Mhmm. Again, good but not great.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:24:08]:
And the problem that he shows with both of those is if interest change, if that utility goes away, then the friendship is so easily dissolved. And, you know, that's the part that spoke to me. I recognize I have I I would have considered good friends at these various stages of life. But I've lived in multiple places, and, you know, as soon as I was gone, those faded. Mhmm. Right? And and I know a lot of that's on me. That's a part that stings. You know? But then he wants to bring us to a the perfect friendship or the good friendship, the true friendship, which is, not born of, hey, there's some benefit I get, or hey, we have a good time together, and those things might still happen.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:24:53]:
But this is because of who you are. Mhmm. I love you because of who you are, not for any sort of use, not because it's pleasant, but because you are. And so that's what I would desire for myself. That's what I desire for others. And the beautiful thing is that's a friendship that we can have with each other, and it's a friendship that we can have with the Lord.

Pat Millea [00:25:21]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's that's one of the fascinating places that I'd love for us to get to, in a little bit here is the idea of friendship with God. This this almost insane seeming contradiction of how we as a human being can be friends of God. Jesus says it that way. I don't call you slaves anymore. I call you friends. Right? And the idea that the omnipotent creator of existence itself would be able to identify us as a friend, and we could have a friendship with God is just so baffling.

Pat Millea [00:25:54]:
But I'm I'm getting ahead of myself. So, so we've got this kind of fundamental Aristotelian basis of friendship. I would imagine based on some of the things you've already said that that you would say that there is that that friendship has a purpose. That there's there's a goal, that there's there's a reason that we're led into friendship, and maybe that's the turn toward a Christian understanding of friendship. What what would you say is the purpose, the point of friendship at all?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:26:23]:
I would say it's for the good. Your own good and the good of the other. Mhmm. And I I think that's how Aristotle would put it. And, we can say, well, we know what that good is. That good is life with God forever. But and this is where it becomes difficult, and Aristotle recognizes this, but, like, that true friendship, that perfect friendship is difficult, for a couple of reasons, but one of them is because if I'm gonna have that, then I need to be oriented toward the good. Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:26:59]:
There needs to be virtue in me, excellence in me. Otherwise, I'm not gonna be able to seek that for the other if it's a foreign concept to me. And so if I desire perfect friendship, good friendship with another, part of that is what's my orientation as it relates to the good? What am I doing in my life, to cultivate virtue, so I can seek that for the other, encourage the other toward that, and be open to the same encouragement from the other. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:27:34]:
Is that is that one of the differences maybe between, a Christian view of friendship? What it would mean to for someone to seek holy, virtuous friendships, and maybe a more worldly view of friendship. Not not a bad view per se, but just a more secular view that's not connected to this idea of the good that you're talking about. Is that one of the distinctions you might draw?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:27:58]:
Yeah. I think, like, I I've been thinking about this because we use that word friend to cover a multitude of relationships. Right. It it would be nice if we had I mean, we have acquaintance, but nobody's, like, ever pumped because, hey. You're my acquaintance. We wanna have friendships, but they're not all the same. And my experience has been, and my observation has been that, we're really content even if we're not recognizing it. We're content, to stay at those lower levels of friendship.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:28:37]:
Mhmm. They're easier. They don't require as much out of us, and they might be more fun. Yeah. Right? Right? That's the bummer, and that's where it's important to say, okay. So what do I mean when I say friend?

Pat Millea [00:28:51]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:28:52]:
And what am I seeking when I say I'm seeking friendship? And that's one of the things I just love for people to be thinking about more intentionally, as they're making those decisions. But, yeah, I think I don't hear a whole lot of conversation just out there in the, we'll call it the world, about looking for someone who's gonna help you enter heavenly glory. Right. Right? But please, god, that could be the case, at least in our circles, that that would be the aim.

Pat Millea [00:29:26]:
Right. Right.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:29:28]:
Because that would be a true love. That would be a true friendship, that I desire for this person to be happy forever.

Pat Millea [00:29:36]:
And we talk about that in in the language around marriage very appropriately, very fittingly. That's that's what the vocation of marriage is for is salvation of the world but starting with my spouse that I can serve them help journey with this person toward heaven. So it is maybe a little strange to me that we don't seem to talk that way about friendship quite so much. And and again I think a lot of people probably understood holy friendship a lot better than I did in high school and college but I had I had great friends in high school and college. Some of them I'm still great friends with today. One of them in particular that I've been friends with since middle school is godparent and with his wife to one of our children who just got his first communion actually on Sunday. Just really great holy friendships. But even with him, I don't know that in high school and middle school I was even in the mindset of I'm trying to help you know God better and to help you have a straighter path to heaven, you know.

Pat Millea [00:30:37]:
I think I was probably living that way, but more accidentally than intentionally. You know?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:30:42]:
And then, like, a question I would have there is, like, when you were that age and as you've that friendship has progressed, like, when along that line did you even recognize that for yourself Right. As a desire?

Pat Millea [00:30:54]:
Right. True. Yeah. I mean, that wasn't until the middle of high school for sure. I had kind of a, I guess, a reversion because I had always been Catholic, but I don't know that I had ever known Jesus. So probably a conversion in the middle of high school and and that's when both of us together, I mean part of our friendship is that we both kind of had this unfolding of faith at the end of high school throughout college. So it was really this like kind of partnership in growing and holding this a little bit in high school and beyond, at least for me. So it was definitely part and parcel.

Pat Millea [00:31:26]:
Yeah. Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:31:27]:
Yeah. I just think back high you know, I was in a Catholic high school, but I can recall no conversations, among my friend group where we were talking about the good. Right? Where we were talking about virtue or we were talking about eternal life. Mhmm. Just wasn't a part of the vocabulary. And so learning about it later in life, again, that's another one of those things that stings a little bit. Mhmm. This is one of the reasons I'm hopeful, like, I want our young people, to realize, like, why they exist.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:32:06]:
Right. Right? And it's it's one of those basic things that maybe used to be more well known. You know, you could ask the Baltimore Catechism question, why did God make you?

Pat Millea [00:32:16]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:32:17]:
And people could answer it. And I'd wonder, like, how many of our young people today, even if they haven't like, it's not integrated, they haven't taken it in, could give that answer.

Pat Millea [00:32:28]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:32:29]:
To know him and love him and serve him in this life and be happy with him forever and the next.

Pat Millea [00:32:33]:
Right.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:32:34]:
Right. To know our purpose is

Pat Millea [00:32:37]:
huge. It's kind of everything. Yeah.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:32:39]:
It is. It is.

Pat Millea [00:32:40]:
Or at least it touches everything that if I don't know my purpose, then how in the world am I supposed to know the purpose of a friend? You know? Right. What friendship is even for in the first place?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:32:48]:
How I'm supposed to navigate this world?

Pat Millea [00:32:50]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:32:51]:
And I I don't know. I would imagine that you and the work here encounter a lot of people who just aren't certain why they are.

Pat Millea [00:33:00]:
Yeah. Absolutely. That's a major part of the work that all of our clinicians do. It's obviously a big part of what we do with This Whole Life, but that that's a huge thing is helping people recover a sense of of their value, of their dignity, first of all, but that their dignity is not rooted in their own achievements, actions, experiences, whatever that is rooted in God and so is their destiny too. That that's where they are from and it's what they're for and it's what their their best friendships are for too, you know, is is journeying like that together. You talked about this a little bit with some of those lower forms of friendship with Aristotle and utility friends, things like that. What what are ways that you have seen friendship maybe get, get twisted, maybe be misunderstood, misused? What are ways that people might have been hurt or maybe themselves done some harm in friendships?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:34:00]:
Well, my immediate thought there goes to, what we would see in, you know, romantic relationships, friendships, when there's a misunderstanding, or an intentional twisting of, like, what love is, and how one person could feel pressured to compromise on something like their purity, because the message they're getting is, if you loved me, you would do this.

Pat Millea [00:34:31]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:34:32]:
And there's yeah. So there's misunderstanding, manipulation in that. And, I I think that sort of idea would spread out into others. Like, bro, if you were a good friend, man, you'd come with me on this, and it's something that I know that I shouldn't be about. If you were if you were my you know, that whole, if you were my friend. Mhmm. Mhmm. And it can be placed out there as a challenge, and now I'm feeling like, well, I wanna be a friend because we all want friendship.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:35:04]:
Right. Right. So am I gonna now compromise, my values in order to fit in? I mean, it's the whole peer pressure thing. It's like, mom and dad were right. You know, be careful about the people you're with.

Pat Millea [00:35:17]:
Yep. Yep.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:35:19]:
A good friend wouldn't do that. And, you know, when you're in high school, at least I couldn't hear that sort of thing, from my parents. But a good friend wouldn't do that. Right. A good friend would never ask me to do anything that's gonna compromise my good, my eternity.

Pat Millea [00:35:36]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:35:38]:
But I think that friendship card gets played in a lot of ways that are unhealthy, that are not true.

Pat Millea [00:35:45]:
And I always get the sense that that behind all that when when someone, myself included, feels so desperate for connection and community that I'm willing to to do whatever you want, be whoever you want just to be in this relationship, just to be in this group of friends, whatever. Beneath all that, there feels like there's a lot of fear that that if if I if you are not my friend, if you abandoned me, then I'll be alone.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:36:12]:
Right.

Pat Millea [00:36:12]:
Or if if I don't give you what you're asking for in this relationship, if I compromise myself, my values, my morals in this way, then we'll break up and then I'll be alone. And so many of us are so deeply motivated by connection which is good. We were made for connection, made for communion, so that's why it's so powerful. We wouldn't care if we weren't made for it, you know. But that desire is not an ultimate desire, like that desire for connection has a purpose itself and it turns out loneliness is not the enemy. That there are things worse than loneliness including a lack of authenticity, a compromise of self, sin. These are all worse than being alone. And and it also is it's the kind of lie that the devil's really good at because it's not even rooted in truth.

Pat Millea [00:37:01]:
Like, what it feels like when someone breaks up with me is I will be alone forever and I will die alone. And the truth is I'll probably be dating someone next week. Right? At least in high school I probably would have been, you know, or like if I'm not friends with this group of friends, the ones that I think are the really valuable group of friends to have, then I will have no friends. And it's just not true like I will find it it may be difficult. I don't wanna diminish the struggle and the pain of being lonely for a while but this illusion that I'll be alone forever is something that that the evil ones are really good at turning up the volume on to really get our attention you know?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:37:38]:
Yeah. And it's speaks to the importance of not just being able to say it or know it, but to be able to experience this reality that I'm never alone, because the Lord is with me, and that can seem like a platitude, until it's experienced. Mhmm. Right? But this would be, another reason, especially, like, with our young people. I think you mentioned it was maybe high school before that idea of a friendship with Christ. Right. It was later than that for me. Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:38:12]:
For a long time, I thought that was, pardon me, but some sort of crazy Protestant idea. Right? But if our young people can be cultivating that friendship with the Lord, hopefully, they'd be able to then reject or renounce that lie that you're gonna be alone if this friendship doesn't work. And and the other thing that makes me think of is part of that desire that I have, that the parish would be this place of communion, of fellowship, and how it's really a cultural shift that we need, and I think this work of friendship would be a family affair. And it's one of the things that brings my heart great joy is when I see that when people come together at the parish, there is that connection. And sure, maybe they're not great friendships, but if I know that when I'm there, they're gonna be there Mhmm. That can combat some of that too. Mhmm. Like, I don't have to compromise with this group because I know where I'm gonna be known Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:39:24]:
And where I'm gonna be loved. That's my desire anyway.

Pat Millea [00:39:28]:
That's beautiful. I get the sense that a lot of folks, including I would say probably a lot, maybe the majority of Catholics, when they think of a place where they're going to make friends or hang out with their friends, they don't immediately think of their parish.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:39:47]:
Right?

Pat Millea [00:39:48]:
So, you know, maybe they'll think of a coworker that they really enjoy hanging out with at work. So maybe they're gonna invite him to go watch the game at the bar or something like that. Or they they have, you know, some neighbors that they seem to get along with when their kids play together. So what if they have some, like, deeper conversations, things like that? What what do you think it would take to make the parish a place where it's more fertile for these kinds of deeper connections and more consistent

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:40:24]:
I've been in more than 1, probably more than 5 funeral planning meetings with families, when I'll ask the widower widower. So, like, what's your story? How'd you meet? The parish dance.

Pat Millea [00:40:41]:
Seriously?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:40:42]:
Yeah. So, like, this used to be a thing. Or then I think about, when I was in one of those over 5 countries that I've been to. The seminary did a trip to England, and at several of the parishes there, there was a parish pub. And it was the place where they would go. You could so you can think about, like, what would our equivalent be. We know that many of our people are gonna be watching a football game on Sunday afternoon. Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:41:12]:
Their idea is, why not do it here? Yeah. And so that why not do it here, it's one of the driving forces between some of the the events that we're trying to that we are hosting at at Saint Joe's that are not at the surface. They don't seem like a church event, and part of that's exactly the point. Yeah. My desire is that, there's some easy entry into life at the parish. And so maybe I'm a guy who's not ready to do a day long retreat, but I like trivia.

Pat Millea [00:41:51]:
Yeah. Right.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:41:52]:
And so, like, the more touches that I can have with this parish where I see that there are people here who I like. There are people here who are normal. I can have a good time doing this. I think that's opening the door to friendship with others from the parish, and it's opening the heart, to let the Lord in. So I've been operating somewhat on this idea that, yes, Christ needs to be the center of everything, but he doesn't need to be at the surface.

Pat Millea [00:42:25]:
Sure.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:42:25]:
And so we can do a cocktail event, and people come, and they have That was longer than

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:42:41]:
man. That was longer than our vigil, and our vigil was just shy of 3 hours. And it was beautiful.

Pat Millea [00:42:48]:
I heard tales told of some priests that we know here on the podcast doing the cha cha slide at 2 in the morning.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:42:56]:
I was witnessing the cha cha slide. Slide.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:42:59]:
I know not how to cha cha nor slide.

Pat Millea [00:43:04]:
But it was beautiful. You're right. I mean, the the vigil is this great triumphant moment of the church's year. And it's just it's the liturgy to end all liturgies. So it's appropriate to celebrate that, you know. And it doesn't have to be an after party right after, but I appreciate that it is an after party right after.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:43:21]:
We have some great people who are making that happen, and it's it's like, yes. This this is what I'm after. Let's pray hard. Let's play hard.

Pat Millea [00:43:30]:
Yeah.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:43:31]:
And let's have this be a place where this is actually where I can go to find friendship.

Pat Millea [00:43:36]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. You sound like any good dad who just like like me and, like, hopefully, as if I am calling myself a good dad. I sure try to be. But, like, any good dad will seek out good and holy friendship on their own so that they can be fulfilled, so they can become this this constant unfolding of who they were made to be. They can live in authenticity and truth. They can be challenged when it's appropriate like you said. But any good dad is also gonna do everything in his power to help his kids be in communion and be connected to great friends.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:44:12]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:44:12]:
That, you know, when when kids are little, you have all the control in the world. My kids, when they're toddlers, they're friends with who I let their friends be, you know?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:44:21]:
Right.

Pat Millea [00:44:21]:
And we will we'll organize play dates with the families that we really think are gonna be great influences on our kids. And obviously as they grow, you lose some of that control. You should lose some of that control. That's the entire point. But still having enough influence to help my kids at least reflect and be mindful of the kinds of people that they're connected with. So this idea of just having parish events that are focused on fellowship communion, it just feels like putting a bunch of your kids in the same room with a bunch of other good friends and saying, like, alright. You guys talk to each other. Have fun.

Pat Millea [00:44:53]:
You know?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:44:54]:
It's amazing. Yeah. Like, few weeks ago, it was one of these non donut Sundays.

Pat Millea [00:45:02]:
Right.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:45:03]:
Where the 9 o'clock Mass gets out right around 10, and at 10:40, there are still kids having sword fights with rolled up bulletins. And they like, because the people are to get us, like, that's right. That's right. They see each other. They know each other. It's familiar. But on that point about, like, a good father, I think it too, it speaks to how important it is to have ongoing relation this sounds silly. Ongoing relationship with your children Yeah.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:45:35]:
So that they trust your judgment and they know that you have their good in mind. Mhmm. That you're not just saying this because you don't want them to get in trouble. But you desire for them what you desire for them because you love them and you're concerned about their good. I don't know if that conversation comes up, how often you talk to a 6 year old about their good. Right. But in that way, like, so that they know that and they can trust you and your judgment, which is why I think cultural familial, if we wanna see a resurgence in good friendship, that that's that's not just a an individual enterprise.

Pat Millea [00:46:15]:
Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't just happen with me making decisions for myself, by myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What about, what about the challenge that folks come across? I I think everyone probably struggles with this occasionally. I know of some folks who come to mind right away, who have struggled with this for years maybe at a time, who have a really difficult time making good true faith filled friendships.

Pat Millea [00:46:42]:
People who just, you know, they're connected to people. They're not sitting at home every single night of their lives, but they just don't have this deeper kind of friendship that they desire, that they feel known, that they feel accepted, they also feel challenged in a healthy way. What what kinds of tips, pointers, thoughts would you give someone who is really struggling with that kind of a sense of loneliness or just superficial friendship?

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:47:09]:
Yeah. And so I won't pretend to know those individual struggles, and so I might have all sorts of ideas that people are gonna hear them and say, you have no idea what you're talking about, dude. But but I think of a couple of things, straight away. One of them would be, where am I looking? And I say that because not everybody is a good candidate for that deeper friendship.

Pat Millea [00:47:49]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:47:50]:
And so who are the people that I'm even approaching and looking for this with? And this is where I think it's so important where we we would have places where we're striving as individuals for the good, for the virtuous life, for holiness, because those are good candidates. So am I surrounding myself with good candidates?

Pat Millea [00:48:14]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:48:15]:
That'd be a question I would have. Yeah. I would also ask the question, what are you doing? And this is where I wanna be careful. What am I doing with the help of God's grace

Pat Millea [00:48:29]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:48:30]:
To become a virtuous person? Because I myself am not capable of that, if I lack a virtue. Or to the extent that I lack virtue, I lack the ability to have good friendship because it's not in me. And and that can be a tough question to ask yourself.

Pat Millea [00:48:49]:
Oh, boy.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:48:50]:
I mean, it's an important question to ask ourselves often. What am I doing with the help of God's grace to grow in virtue? Mhmm. And it's tough because it means that there is something of this that is on me. Mhmm. So I'd wanna know that. And then I'd I'd even wanna take a look at, like so just tell me about your day. Tell me about your week. Like, is there order in your life? Are do you have leisure? Do you have recreation? Because I think one of the things that might happen is because those things are out, I'm seeking everything in this other person.

Pat Millea [00:49:29]:
Sure.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:49:29]:
And and all of a sudden, I go to this person, and I'm in I I I I'm in such great need that it's like the person's gonna, like, say, woah. Like, you're coming on strong there.

Pat Millea [00:49:42]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:49:42]:
And so the more that I know who I am and, frankly, the more content I am to be alone, I think the better my chances of finding that friendship. Mhmm. Do I know how to be alone? Do I have order? Do I have recreation? Or am I pinning all of what I'm looking for on another person.

Pat Millea [00:50:06]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:50:07]:
That's rough.

Pat Millea [00:50:08]:
Yeah. I can think of one kid in high school that I remember. One one specific fellow student who for me growing up and maybe this was my own unfair assessment from a distance, but was just the model of that kind of desperation that you're talking about. And, you know, he he was not, like, the coolest kid at the school and neither was I. So there's zero judgment there.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:50:33]:
Close second though.

Pat Millea [00:50:33]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sure. I was running for vice president. Right. But he he just lived with this kind of, like, agitation almost of, like, trying to impress people and trying to be the kind of person that people want to be around all the time. And he was in in band with me. That's how cool both of us were.

Pat Millea [00:50:54]:
We we were in band together. And there were times throughout high school where maybe a small group of us would be, you know, like at at on a band trip or before a football game or something and would be able to have some, like, heartfelt and not hopefully condescending conversations about, like, man, I think if you just didn't try so hard, I think it might go better for you.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:51:16]:
Right.

Pat Millea [00:51:16]:
You know? And gradually, toward the end of high school, that is exactly what happened is the the desperation kind of was able to settle a little bit and maybe it was because he got a little more comfortable being alone and he didn't feel like there was this hole that was empty and needed to be filled by another person for him to be happy. I'm not sure. But but there was that sense that I got over the years and I've seen that in myself too from time to time that when I'm feeling lonely or sad or bored or whatever that I'm willing to kind of be whatever people want me to be for the sake of what looks like connection. Sure. But then the irony too is that that that type of connection is just a utility friendship like you were talking about. Like, when I'm that desperate, all I want is just somebody to fill the void. So I'm kind of using that person in a way to just make me not alone. That Right.

Pat Millea [00:52:07]:
That's that's the extent of it on a certain level. So it it seems really valuable just to take whatever time, whatever prayer is necessary to get to a better sense of self so that I know what I even have to give someone else in the first place.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:52:20]:
A part of this too that's coming to me now is, like, recreation is important. And that idea of recreation in the sense of being recreated, being made new, that there is something in my life, that's bringing me joy even at the natural level, so that I'm not one of those who, sort of reeks of desperation. Like, there's nothing in my life I need you to provide it. And so, you know, if if somebody is really struggling with loneliness and, maybe it is currently a friendlessness. I would imagine there's all sorts of other stuff around that that's not very fun either. That's not a good place to be. So what would bring me some joy at the natural level, to start working my way out of that? Again, with God's grace, I gotta be careful that I'm not stepping into heresy and all of this. But, you know, God does call for our cooperation.

Pat Millea [00:53:29]:
You were talking the way you were talking about recreation, Father, makes me think of what might be kind of a healthy both and in the realm of good holy joyful friendship as well. The the both/and about being serious and silly. You know that that if I am nothing but goofy and having nothing but a good time with my friends, it's a very pleasant friendship. Like you said, it makes me frankly more fun sometimes Right. Than the more deep profound friendships. But that's not necessarily what friendship for and it won't always be for my good especially if we're not in the right environment surrounded by the right things, you know. So there's kind of there's a way you can fall off the horse on that side, but then on the other side, if I can have great, profound, deep conversations with a friend and that's all we can do together, that will pretty quickly probably become exhausting

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:54:24]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:54:25]:
And not feeding my natural self in the way that I desire as well. So I I would imagine, at least for myself it's true, that the best friendships that I have with with Kenna, with with other great friendships over the years are very firmly in both both arenas that

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:54:43]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:54:43]:
In in the right moments, we have no hesitation about talking about deep, sometimes really difficult things. And also, we can just laugh for hours Yes. For no higher call or no reason. You know? That that kind of balance feels really healthy to me.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:54:59]:
Yeah. And I think too, for, like, I would imagine I or how would I say it? I can't imagine getting to a perfect friendship, true friendship, without that passing through pleasant friendship.

Pat Millea [00:55:14]:
Sure.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:55:15]:
Alright? And and so, you know, one thing I wouldn't want people to think is that those are bad friendships, the pleasant friendships. I think they're really vital for us, and we're not gonna have that perfect or true friendship with every single it's just too much.

Pat Millea [00:55:30]:
Right.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:55:30]:
There are too many people.

Pat Millea [00:55:31]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:55:32]:
And there is a place for, you know, your gym buddies. Yep. And that's a good thing, and, like, I wouldn't wanna downplay that at all. And I I just think that's a that's a great starting place, is, you know, I see the same guys at the record shop every time I go.

Pat Millea [00:55:53]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:55:54]:
Like, maybe I say hello. And maybe that can become something that gives a little life, to my day or my week. Mhmm. I know just from my own experience over the past couple months, we've got a parishioner who I see at the gym all the time. Yep. And at first, you know, I I can sense that going deeper. Sure. And that's happening in the midst of squats and deadlifts.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:56:21]:
You know? Like Right. Right? You know, it helps that we know that there's something deeper that we're both after in our own lives, but that's great. And so I would let's not say that a pleasant friendship is a bad thing. I think that's a great starting place.

Pat Millea [00:56:39]:
That's a great finer point, I think, too, because, it it it gives the lie to the idea that the only friendships worth having are, quote, unquote, true friendships. Right? That that is that is not the case. That is a false dichotomy that

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:56:56]:
Right. Right.

Pat Millea [00:56:57]:
Some friendships will always be in that pleasant friendship level or utility level, and those do not mean that those are bad friends

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:57:04]:
Right.

Pat Millea [00:57:04]:
Or that's an unhealthy friendship. You know? They're and and they're

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:57:08]:
Unless you have a good time robbing banks.

Pat Millea [00:57:11]:
Yeah. If that wasn't experience

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:57:15]:
It's probably not the way to go.

Pat Millea [00:57:17]:
Oh, I do love a good heist movie, though. I don't know. But but there can be that sense of sadness. Like, man, I I really, I feel like this friendship should be deeper than it is. Mhmm. When the fact is, like, maybe that's not what God's plan is for that friendship. Right. And and maybe it's nobody's fault.

Pat Millea [00:57:37]:
Maybe just by nature of temperament, personality, circumstances, one of you graduates a year before the other one. Maybe it just it doesn't work out that way. You know? And it's okay to feel the sadness in that, to feel the the the weight of that. But, it would be false to think that if someone is in my life, we have a great time together, but we never talk about deep things that I need to eliminate that person from my life because clearly that's not useful for me or or good for me in the long run. You know? Yeah. That's beautiful. Well, this has really been pleasant and also more meaningful than that. So thank you for a great conversation, Father.

Pat Millea [00:58:18]:
Thanks for your wisdom. Thanks for your faith. We're gonna offer a challenge by choice in the realm of friendship, and it's a 2 parter. So I'm gonna throw this out to you, good listener. And, Father, you can let us know how you feel about 1 of or both of these if you want. The first opportunity, the first invitation is to to make a tangible way to connect with an existing friend just to say I really appreciate your friendship. That's it. And it can be a friendship at any of these levels.

Pat Millea [00:58:48]:
Right? Just to to shoot someone a text, send an email, give a call, next time you see him, hey, man. I'm really glad that we're friends. You know? No agenda. No big parade necessarily, but just to express gratitude for that friendship and maybe even to give God thanks for that friendship as well because he's the author of that friend, he's the author of friendship in the first place. So a stance of gratitude toward a current friend, and then the second invitation is to reach out to someone who might benefit from deepening a friendship with you and maybe you might really benefit from deepening a friendship with them. So maybe there's a person you see at church every single Sunday and you sit 2 rows ahead of them and you feel like it's past the point where it's socially acceptable for you to introduce yourself because you've seen them for 18 months straight and you haven't said hi yet.

Fr. Luke Marquard [00:59:41]:
12 years.

Pat Millea [00:59:41]:
12 years straight. So maybe today's the day. Maybe after Mass on Sunday, after church on Sunday, you just introduce yourself and say, hey, man. I should have done this a long time ago, but what's your name? What's your story? Where are you from? Whatever. Or maybe there's someone who is a, you know, pleasant friendship level and you feel like there may be an opportunity, a call appropriately to have a deeper conversation. So maybe you invite them to a parish event or a bible study or just have them come to your house and, you know, talk about some things that are more than just football and and what you're doing for vacation, you know. So what's a way that you can reach out to someone where both of you might benefit from deepening that friendship somehow? Beautiful.

Fr. Luke Marquard [01:00:25]:
I approve of both.

Pat Millea [01:00:27]:
The Father Luke Marquard, much sought after stamp of approval. That's excellent. Well, Father, while I've got you with us, can I put you to work and have you pray for all of us to, wrap up our episode here?

Fr. Luke Marquard [01:00:40]:
You know, I've had this conversation that we're having now sort of rolling around in my brain this week. And and something hit me during the gospel today, where the Lord, says I came not to do my own will, but the will of the one who sent me. And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it on the last day. And this idea that the Father has given us to the son. And then, later in John's gospel 17, when Jesus is praying for us, you know, we who, I pray not only for them, the apostles, but those who will come to believe through them, he says, Father, they are your gift to me. So that we're, you know and so this idea that we are a gift to Jesus, hit me today, and then am I able to see others as a gift? And that maybe would be the baptism of what Aristotle is talking about with that true friendship. Sure. Right? I wanna be I see this person as a gift for who they are.

Fr. Luke Marquard [01:02:02]:
And that's just, anyway, that's been rattling around today.

Pat Millea [01:02:05]:
Love that.

Fr. Luke Marquard [01:02:06]:
And so maybe we can pray with that.

Pat Millea [01:02:08]:
Please.

Fr. Luke Marquard [01:02:08]:
In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Heavenly Father, we love you and we thank you for loving us. We thank you for making a gift of us to the son, to Jesus. And in his holy name, we ask first, that we might always experience the truth, that he sees us as gift, that he delights in us, that he chooses us, that we are never alone. And in his holy name, we ask the grace of seeing the other people in our lives as gift. Help us to love them for who they are, to love them as you love them. And, Lord, we also ask, just for the grace, to seek you, to seek our good, to seek heavenly glory in all things, so that we might more readily, receive what you offer us, and so that we can become capable of being good and true friends.

Fr. Luke Marquard [01:03:22]:
We ask this all in the holy name of Jesus who is Lord forever and ever. Amen.

Pat Millea [01:03:27]:
Amen.

Fr. Luke Marquard [01:03:28]:
In the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit. Amen.

Pat Millea [01:03:33]:
Father Luke Marquard, it's been a joy. Again, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for flexing, although no one else will be able to appreciate the gun show that I just got as your official sign off. And all of our friends out there are true friends even if I don't know your name and you barely know mine. Thank you for being with us today. We would be so grateful if you would rate and subscribe, if you would be a friend by following us on Instagram, be a friend there.

Pat Millea [01:04:00]:
You can make friends with us at thiswholelifepodcast.com. We are praying for you, and we will see you next time. God bless you.

Kenna Millea [01:04:15]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Fr. Luke Marquard [01:04:35]:
Cool.

Pat Millea [01:04:35]:
Alrighty. You sound great. Here we go. Feel free to do that right in the middle too. Pop pop. Exactly. Okay.