Ep53 How Women Heal from Sexual Sin w/ Rachael Killackey

"There is a God close to us who calls us by name and says: 'Rise, cease your tears, because I have come to free you!'"
~ Pope Francis

Pornography, masturbation, sexual sin, and sexual addiction are not only problems for men.

In Episode 53, Kenna and guest Rachael Killackey confront the sensitive yet crucial topic of sexual sin and addiction among women through the lens of faith and mental health. The discussion addresses the complexities of female sexuality, the impact of "purity culture", and the essential role of women sharing and understanding each other's stories. The episode offers insights into the relational nature of women's hearts, the importance of parenting with both moral formation and humble openness, and the necessity of holistic faith-filled sexual education for children. Rachael also joyfully shares her journey of founding Magdala Ministries, the first of its kind in the Catholic Church, to support women struggling with sexual addiction.

This beautiful episode offers a step toward hope and healing for women burdened by sexual sin, and clarity for those who want to better love & support the women in their lives. Join the conversation and take the next step toward freedom and wholeness!

Rachael Killackey is the founder & executive director of Magdala Ministries and a Colorado native (depending on your definition of native). She earned her bachelors and masters degrees in Theology from Ave Maria University, and since first sharing her testimony in college, Rachael has had the privilege of hearing dozens of beautiful stories of healing from sexual addiction, and is pursuing certification in sexual addiction therapy. Rachael married her husband, Tommy, in 2021. They now live in Tampa, FL, with their daughter, where they enjoy the beach (almost) as much as they enjoy the mountains. Her book, Love in Recovery, is available through Ave Maria Press.

Episode 53 Show Notes

Chapters:
0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
12:30: The origins of Magdala Ministries & Rachael's healing journey
20:10: Moving from addiction to openness & healing
27:49: Gender differences & purity culture
40:10: How can we help our daughters & granddaughters grow up in the age of pornography?
48:22: Challenge By Choice

Questions for Reflection & Discussion:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. Do you think woman have been excluded from discussions around sexual sin? Why or why not?
3. What impact have you seen "purity culture" have on Catholic approaches to sex?
4. How can parents help prepare their children to confront pornography in a healthy and resilient way?
5. What kind of freedom has the Lord offered you in the face of sin?

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

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Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 12:30 The origins of Magdala Ministries & Rachael's healing journey
• 20:10 Moving from addiction to openness & healing
• 27:49 Gender differences & purity culture
• 40:10 How can we help our daughters & granddaughters grow up in the age of pornography?
• 48:22 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Rachael Killackey [00:00:00]:
What we do know about Mary Magdalene, and this is why we we named the apostolate for her, what we know is that she was a woman entrenched in in deep sin. Through Christ's healing, she transforms into the apostle to the apostles, like, the herald of the resurrection. Right? And so we just kind of hold her as a prototype for what we think women who receive healing are capable of.

Kenna Millea [00:00:28]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast along with my husband, Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader. We invite you to our kitchen table. Okay. Not literally. But you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes. We're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes. It's not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care.

Kenna Millea [00:01:09]:
So let's get talking about This Whole Life. Welcome back to This Whole Life, friends. It is so good to be with you on another episode, to have you back with us. Or if you're joining us for the first time, welcome. I am so excited about the episode we have to share with you today. And before we get into that, before I share with you my my mystery guest, I just want to ask a favor. Would you please consider sharing This Whole Life with a friend, with a family member, with someone who may need that word of encouragement to live that more integrated life, to pursue both faith and full humanity, and to glorify god in this way. So thank you for considering doing that for us.

Kenna Millea [00:01:58]:
And I wanna thank you, Rachael, Rachael Killackey, who's here with us today, joining us from afar. We're connecting here through technology. Praise technology when it serves us.

Rachael Killackey [00:02:10]:
Like I know. I know.

Kenna Millea [00:02:11]:
Things like this would not be possible. So let's use it for good. But Rachael Killackey here from Magdala Ministries. So thank you, Rachael, for being with us.

Rachael Killackey [00:02:23]:
Oh my gosh. Of course.

Kenna Millea [00:02:24]:
And, yeah, I wanna just say a word about Magdala Ministries and and how we came to find you, Rachael. Yeah. So Magdala Ministries offers support, community, and accountability, for women over the age of 18 who are experiencing addiction, and they do this through both virtual groups around the world and in person groups in parishes and on college campuses. So, Rachael, you are the founder and the executive director of Magdala. Yes. And you're here to to join us in this ongoing conversation, that we are having around the reality of sexual addiction, in our lives and in our Church. So, you know, in episodes, I think it was 35, 36, Pat and I shared our own story, the impact that pornography had in our marriage and on each of us as individuals. And in doing that, received a lot of feedback from listeners around, can we talk about women? Can we talk about the reality of women's experience in the midst of sexual addiction and, disordered use of their sexuality? And your name came up again and again, Rachael, and Magdala Ministries too.

Kenna Millea [00:03:35]:
So thanks for the yes to this invitation.

Rachael Killackey [00:03:38]:
Oh my gosh. Of course. And thanks for sharing your own story as well and just creating a space for people. Yeah, to to be broken, to need help. I think that's beautiful.

Kenna Millea [00:03:48]:
Yeah. It's, it's so freeing, I have found, to admit that we are broken and how, the pressure is off when you're, like, you know what? Even as even in the public eye. Right? Like, to be, like, you know what? I'm I'm not gonna wear a facade. I'm not gonna pretend that I'm something I'm not. Yes. It's is really freeing. So thanks for joining us in that in that mission, within the mission as well.

Rachael Killackey [00:04:14]:
Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Kenna Millea [00:04:15]:
Yeah. So, Rachael, just a little bit in terms of allowing people to to have maybe a peek into life lately for you, we start our episodes with a high and a hard.

Rachael Killackey [00:04:26]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:04:26]:
So is there something you'd be willing to share with us in that category of a high and a hard?

Rachael Killackey [00:04:31]:
Yeah. I like to start hard first, and then on the note of positivity. Yeah. Hard, I would say lately, has actually just been just some pushback, in my work, like just in some criticism or talks being canceled, articles being pulled, just like pushback from people within the Church. And I think it's just been an experience again of, like, we're the Body of Christ, but that doesn't mean we don't always like, we we don't always see eye to eye on how to address these things and so these are really wonderful people who are giving pushback. But, yeah, that's just been a source of discouragement and pain, I think, recently. It just felt like things are happening back to back. It's It's been one of those seasons.

Rachael Killackey [00:05:16]:
So I'd say that's my hard, is just how to continue on, be confident in God's call, admit mistakes, but then also know when to my like, stand my ground against critics and, yeah, and just not not take it, I guess, in a in a polite and terrible way. That's my hard. My high has probably just been, my incredible husband. He's just awesome. And I think since we're both in ministry roles, but, since becoming parents, we've just, entered a season of, like, a lot of growth, like, really hard growth over the last 18 months. Just really digging into, hard conversations and roles and just, like, how we're both serving each other and our family. And, I feel like lately, we've just had a lot of breakthrough on how to love each other better, and I've just, yeah, I've just felt so grateful to be his wife. So I think I'm just seeing, yeah, that's my high.

Rachael Killackey [00:06:20]:
He's he's the best, so I just love him. But, I'm grateful for for that that season of of digging in and of hardship and, yeah, because I just think that's that's what this sacrament is. You know, this is that's what the vocation is, is repeatedly doing that, you know, throughout your life with somebody. So, we've been married for almost 3 years and, yeah, it's just it's just kind of a beautiful time of renewal, I think, and I'm just very grateful for that, especially as we're, like, expecting our second child. And so it's a it's a good season for a family, I think. So

Kenna Millea [00:06:54]:
That is beautiful. And I there's something about the juxtaposition of the high and hard that you are

Rachael Killackey [00:06:59]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:07:00]:
Of, like, yeah, that that in ministry, right, we could say your work, just so many maybe crosses to be born, so much suffering maybe to endure, and just deep hard discernment and then to have your marriage as this place of refuge

Rachael Killackey [00:07:16]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:07:16]:
And and refreshment. And, like like, ultimately, that is our highest call is whatever. You know, sacramental vocation, we're called to.

Rachael Killackey [00:07:26]:
Yeah. And it takes work to create that, I think, is what we've been seeing is it takes such work to make it a place of refuge. It's not automatic. And, yeah, it's it it takes intentionality and time and suffering even to make it that place. And so that's an encouragement even in of itself. It's like you get to see the suffering bear fruit of, like if we put in the time and effort it takes to make our home and our marriage a safe space, we're gonna see it, you know, whether today or in a year. But, yeah, I'm just grateful grateful for the fruit of the labor there.

Kenna Millea [00:07:58]:
Yes. No. Absolutely. And I think you're right. I that that idea of, it it takes work. It takes intentionality. Like, there's no set it and forget it image. I think there's a lot of ways in which the culture sends us that message

Rachael Killackey [00:08:12]:
and Completely. Oh, yes.

Kenna Millea [00:08:14]:
Yeah. It tells us that it's always the honeymoon and, like, always coming up roses, and there's something wrong if it's not. And it's, like, actually, it's in the grit that, like, real marriage happens. Mhmm. You know, praise God for the for the joyful romantic moments, but, man, the bulk of it is in the grit in the day in and day out.

Rachael Killackey [00:08:33]:
And 100%.

Kenna Millea [00:08:34]:
Yeah. In the human human human meeting human.

Rachael Killackey [00:08:38]:
Yeah. Speaking of brokenness.

Kenna Millea [00:08:41]:
Okay. So my high and hard, like you, I like to start with my hard. My hard lately has been this shift in our family. So, Rachael, our oldest is 13, and so we are moving into these teen years of kids being up later and of quality time happening much, much, much later in the evening. And Pat is naturally a night owl, and I have really, through the years of mothering, have become more of a morning person. Like, I've just trained myself, I think. And I'm now learning to, like, flourish and thrive in that place and and appreciate that. And so I'm kind of, like, in this in this moment of, do I need to shift? Like, I'm finding that when I want to go to bed, when I wanna turn in at, like, 9, 9:30, they're still up.

Kenna Millea [00:09:33]:
They're reading together. You know, Pat and the older kids, they're having good conversations. They're listening to music. Pat's really just getting, like, like, ready to go with that's when he tends to ask me, like, what was the high and hard of your day, honey? Like, you know, he tends to the questions that I've been wanting to talk about with him all day long, but it's been so busy. And then it really does get quiet right when I wanna wind down. Or if there's, like, big topics, like, hard topics we wanna talk about, it's actually then. And and so it sounds kinda silly, but, like, as someone who has for the last 13 and a half years, like, worked to get herself to be a morning person, I'm, like, what? Change again? Like, you want me to transition again? Oh. And, oh, by the way, the toddlers still get up at 5:30.

Kenna Millea [00:10:18]:
So

Rachael Killackey [00:10:19]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:10:20]:
It's not totally a new season. So anyway, that is just, I'm finding myself in this spot of like, I don't quite know what I'm going to do. And, yeah, some really good FOMO, like, legit. Like, I wanna be with all of you all the time and and also have a little bit of quiet time. So Yeah. So that is my hard lately. My high has been, we moved into a house, a new house within the last year and in a new community, a different suburb of the Twin Cities. And it just hasn't totally felt like home yet.

Kenna Millea [00:10:55]:
Right? It's a house, but it hasn't become home. And lately, we've been, having the opportunity to host folks, some overnight guests, and some for brunch, some for, you know, dinners or just to hang out. And it's it's now I'm seeing, like, okay, it's a process. Like, it really is a home, because of what happens there. And we just haven't lived there long enough to have a lot happen there yet. And, so just really feeling, yeah, so grateful for this desire that's on both Pat's and my hearts to host and to be hospitable and how that's making, like, our setting feel, a bit more familiar and, just a bit more comfortable.

Rachael Killackey [00:11:36]:
So Yeah. It's amazing how that creates that. Right? It's, like, hospitality and opening up. Your home makes it feel more like home. Yeah. I I encountered that when we moved as well. It's just beautiful how that it takes a community almost to make your home home.

Kenna Millea [00:11:51]:
It does. It does. And I'll be honest, We still have literal cardboard boxes in most rooms of our house. Like, maybe that should embarrass me because we've lived there for, like, 8 months. But, we warn people before they come, like, please step over the boxes. It's not it hasn't become a home because I've, like, decorated it exactly how I dreamed, but because we're welcoming people and their stories and their lives in. And, yeah, it's just it's a gift.

Rachael Killackey [00:12:16]:
It is such a gift. I love it. I love it.

Kenna Millea [00:12:18]:
I love it. We even ate off paper plates this last weekend, and I was like, well, that's a whole new level of Love it. Kind of surrendering. Yeah. I think to this season of life.

Rachael Killackey [00:12:29]:
I love it.

Kenna Millea [00:12:30]:
So, Rachael, to go back to Magdala Ministries, and I wonder if you could take us back to the beginning of how, you know, how did you hear this call? What in your own life, what in your own story drew you, to wanna support women who are experiencing sexual addiction?

Rachael Killackey [00:12:48]:
Yeah. That's a beautiful question. It was a pretty hard and fast call. I'll put it that way. I think I started sharing my own story when I was a junior in college. That was the first time I really started stepping into sharing. And by that point, I was probably about a year into my recovery journey. And I would share on my I went to Ave Maria in in Florida.

Rachael Killackey [00:13:16]:
And so there's just some opportunities to share at women's retreats or different things like that. And every time I would share or give a testimony, brief talk, whatever, I would be approached by several women. Usually about a third of the audience, which statistically at the time, like, made a lot of sense. And, you know, they would ask me for help. They would share their own stories. And so I ended up approaching campus ministry as a college student and asking if I could start a support group, which I I did start as a senior with the help of some fellow students as well, and, I ran that for a year. There was no, there's no book, no nothing out there for women specifically at the time, so I wrote a curriculum, as a senior in college, like, just kind of a a 10 step sort of thing, based on my own journey and then what I was hearing from women of, how can we walk through this together in prayer, but also just kind of in a little bit of psychological formation as well. So I led that group my senior year, and then I I took a break.

Rachael Killackey [00:14:19]:
It passed on to another leader. And I went to grad school. I got my master's in theology and then I was working, for the Diocese of Nashville. I was, in their Formation and Catechesis office. And, I had been kinda deep in that world for a couple years, like the theology worlds, the catechesis world. I thought about getting a PhD. Like, I was very much heading the academic or Church work kind of direction. I was engaged to my husband at the time, and I gave a talk again, on the topic of of women and sexual addiction very randomly.

Rachael Killackey [00:15:00]:
And it had been a few years, but it just re lit this fire, and this love for the topic. And so I reached out to, Matt Fradd, who hosts points with Aquinas, and he's also he's just been very involved in the, you know, I guess, breaking the silence for men on the topic of pornography in the Church. And so I reached out to him. We had gotten connected a few years prior, but nothing had really come of it. And so I sent him an email just saying, like, is there a retreat anywhere? Is there somebody writing something? Like, is there any ministry going that I could just lend some prayer or brainpower to, or I just wanna help? And he set up a call with me and said, there's nothing, and I think you should try. If you do, I'll do everything I can to support you. Like, he just extended his support, his encouragement, and he's like, you've got a week to decide. And so yeah. And I was like

Kenna Millea [00:15:53]:
What was with the deadline?

Rachael Killackey [00:15:55]:
I think he just knew, like, no person in their right mind is like, heck yeah. I I wanna be the porn girl. You know, like, I think he just knew that. And it was what I needed. I'm like a very choleric temperament, so I actually work very well under under deadline, and pressure and intensity. But I think, yeah, I was 3 months out from our wedding. I was in a pretty intense job, and I said yes. It's like, let's go for it.

Rachael Killackey [00:16:24]:
And so Magdala has kind of built itself. It's been very much like a work of the Lord just to see it build itself because I'm, there's a lot about me that is not qualified to be director. You know? Like, there's just there's so many gaps in my knowledge and my experience, and and I I you know, I was young. I am young starting it. So I think I think it's been it's just been such a a grace to see it build itself of like, okay. What are we gonna offer? How are we gonna offer it? And then just letting the women tell us what they need too. I think because we are the first of our kind in the Catholic Church, it's also just been, like, a largely creative work of, like, we get we don't really have anything else to compare to, so there's, like, a little bit of harm in that, but there's also some a a lot of freedom and a lot of creativity of we just get to let women tell us what they need. Women get to tell us what serves them.

Rachael Killackey [00:17:16]:
We get to figure out what works for us as a team too of, like, okay. Is this healthy? Is this is this in the integrity of our mission? But I went full time in January of 2023. So I've been working full time hours, but in addition to another job. And then when I became a mother, I just wanted to go kind of all in on Magdala and my motherhood. So I've been blessed to be full time, for over a year now and get to be at home with my daughter, and it's it's a huge gift. But that's where we find ourselves now. So my my hats are many. I am in direct ministry.

Rachael Killackey [00:17:53]:
I mentor our volunteer leaders. I mentor our campus leaders and parish leaders. I do stuff like this. I do media, because a lot of our organization's work is also just kind of narrative reversal is what we call it. It's just like a lot of, yeah, just just a lot of almost like, I guess, a a work of catechesis, of of opening up this conversation to the Church of how, pornography, masturbation, sexual sin, and addiction affect, not just men, but women. I think women were left out of the conversation for a long time. So we do that. I write.

Rachael Killackey [00:18:31]:
I speak. And then I'm the businesswoman, so I do, like, a lot of tax paperwork and a lot of meetings and, a lot of that kind of stuff, a lot of donor relations. So, it's been a joy, honestly. I love my job. I I I wouldn't trade it. And it's but it has just been, like, a a real act of God, and his power and his creativity to just see it build because it could not be could not be by our own doing. But that's kind of a long it's a long explanation, but that's Yeah. Where we are in Magdala right now.

Kenna Millea [00:19:01]:
No. I love that, and I love, yeah, the way in which it's evident that God's hand is upon you and, yeah, that that he's called you. I mean, what a what a resurrection story, truly, to to see the way in which something that could have kept you in the darkness, in the shame

Rachael Killackey [00:19:21]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:19:21]:
In isolation, has become this source of community and this source of outreach and this source of education and and, like you said, breaking silence. So I I wonder if we could even go back farther from where you started there, Rachael. And I'm curious about, that first witness you gave, and and just what what moved you to do that? I'm just thinking about listeners who maybe, are recognizing that they have patterns, habits of addictive behavior around their sexuality. And, I guess I'm looking for a seed of hope and courage for them. Not that everyone is gonna share their story in a public way and found

Rachael Killackey [00:20:07]:
Of course.

Kenna Millea [00:20:07]:
You know, found a ministry, but but, but it it didn't start as a ministry. Right? It started as you being willing to to step out and to acknowledge this reality for you. So if you could take us back there.

Rachael Killackey [00:20:19]:
Yeah. It's a beautiful question. I think the first time I ever talked about it I was still in active addiction at the time. I was 18. I actually wrote an article for an outlet called The Young Catholic Woman. And looking back, I can see even some of my own self justification at the time, in that article. I still think it's a good piece, you know, especially, like, written by an 18 year old. But, but, yeah, that was kind of me getting my feet wet.

Rachael Killackey [00:20:56]:
I think I've always I I've been blessed with just, like, a penchant for talking about hard things. Like, I I love debate. I loved I I grew up with a lot of Protestant friends, Protestant Christian friends, so I was very prone to, like, apologetics and, defense of the faith. And so I think when I see a topic that's untouched, my inclination isn't to avoid it, but to dive in, and I'm grateful for that inclination. So I don't know if I had the same hesitation surrounding the topic that I would have had without that inclination, if that makes sense, if God hadn't prepared me a little bit to dive in. The first, like, the first time I really put my story out there, like, as my personal story was at a Young Life camp. I was a Young Life leader in college. It's an ecumenical youth ministry.

Rachael Killackey [00:21:49]:
So I was at this camp with about 500 people, like teenagers and and adult leaders. I wanna say it was 4 to 500 people. And they had this activity called cardboard testimonies where you wrote on one side, like, a sin you had struggled with or just a broken area of your life and you flipped it over and showed how Christ had healed or redeemed you. And they asked all of us, leaders. I was I was in college. I was heading into my junior year of college, and, they asked all of us to submit something. The camp directors asked us to submit something that we would put on the cardboard. And pornography and addiction was the first thing that spring to my mind.

Rachael Killackey [00:22:28]:
And and that time, I was sitting there and I was writing. I was like, no, Lord. I no. I can't I can't do that. And and then I just felt this prompting of, like, write it down. Write it down. And so I just I was like, okay, Lord.

Kenna Millea [00:22:41]:
Were you in recovery at that point, Rachael?

Rachael Killackey [00:22:42]:
I was.

Kenna Millea [00:22:43]:
You were working on recovery? Okay.

Rachael Killackey [00:22:45]:
Yeah. I was close to a year, clean, for lack of a better word, at that point. And I yeah. I I felt like I could write it down, and I I just kind of surrendered it briefly to the Lord and said, if you want me to share, you'll you'll let them pick me. And, they put the list up at our meeting the next day of all the all the camp leaders, and mine was mine was the first name on the list. So it was like, oh, okay. It's time. And and there's just an acceptance of that, I think.

Rachael Killackey [00:23:17]:
Like, it was probably just a grace of acceptance. And, yeah, I think I remember shaking in my boots behind, like, the curtain before walking out with that cardboard. But once I got out there, it was just, like, just silence and quiet just fell over my mind and my heart because it was just like there is something so freeing about own owning the truth about yourself of, like, this is, this is what I've done. You know? There's a relief in that of, like, this is what I've done. And I had dear friends in the audience. My boss was in the audience, an ex boyfriend was in the audience. Like, so it's just kind of, like, really owning it in front of those people that meant a lot to me. And each one of them just embraced me with such with such grace, especially my ex boyfriend.

Rachael Killackey [00:24:07]:
He he extended such grace to me after that cardboard testimony. And I actually think his reaction gave me a lot of courage to keep going forward. So I think that's another grace is, like, each time that I shared, especially in the beginning, I was met with such welcome, and such affirmation usually that and and that's not necessarily the case as much now, which is funny, but I think I've built up a little more a a little more resilience. But at the beginning, the Lord was so good to just give me, people who were ready for that conversation, and were ready to embrace me and love me in that. And so, yeah, I I loved that experience, but somebody came up to me afterward, and this will always stick with me. It was one of the camp directors, and I didn't know him at all. But he came up and he just took my hand and he said, you have no idea the chains that you broke today. Please do not stop talking.

Rachael Killackey [00:25:05]:
Do not stop talking. And I was like, and I didn't I didn't do much after that for a little while, but, like, that I I very viscerally remember him, like, looking me in the eyes and taking my hand and saying that. And something so I know I know something hit my heart at the time of like, hey. This is this is what you need to do. I didn't think he was talking about my future full time job. But I, yeah. So just like people yeah. God was so good to just give me give me people who are ready to affirm and ready to receive is, yeah, such a gift.

Kenna Millea [00:25:42]:
Well and, Rachael, that makes perfect sense then that that is what Magdala Ministries is. Like, it's a place where you can be assured to be met with that same kind of acceptance. And and I loved when you said, you know, I put it up on that cardboard. This is what I've done. Not this is who I am, not this is my value or my worth. This is what I've done. And we're so clear here on the podcast to distinguish between being and doing, and that sin is an act of of doing. Right? It's an act of action, and that's what we're asking for forgiveness for.

Kenna Millea [00:26:15]:
Our goodness has already been spoken for. Christ has already spoken the truth over us of of our goodness, our value, our worth, that we are enough, even, you know, we are in a habit of sin. So I just yeah. There's so much of that that I I of course, hindsight being 20/20, I can see how the Lord was preparing you for Magdala Ministries, because it really came out of your own authentic, like, personhood, your willingness to go there first maybe and to be this trailblazer for others and say you can do it. You can join a group like this and and have your story known and trust that you'll be accepted. Like, do this risky thing. Walk out on that shaky limb and and be met. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:27:02]:
And and that that's not always the case. Right? Like like you said, like, since then, you've had many experiences No. Of rejection and ridicule Yes. And skepticism. And so, yeah, to maybe even that's a word of hope for listeners of, like, if that has been your experience of rejection, shaming by others, you know, can can you have the hope to try again maybe in a place that's even more prepared like a Magdala Group?

Rachael Killackey [00:27:30]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:27:30]:
I know we have clients who have participated in Magdala Groups, and that concurrent with their talk therapy, they're like, it's it's making the change in my life.

Rachael Killackey [00:27:39]:
Praise God.

Kenna Millea [00:27:39]:
You know, to to be free and, to live the life that I know is made for. So Praise God. Thank you. Thank you. So a couple things too that I wanna come back to. You know, you've said, women were left out of the conversation around pornography, sexual addiction, sexual sin. Tell me more about that, the difference between men and women when it comes to, to, yeah, habits around our sexuality, and also why do you think women were left out of that conversation?

Rachael Killackey [00:28:09]:
Oh, gosh. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:28:11]:
Two big ones, I guess.

Rachael Killackey [00:28:12]:
No. You're hitting them all. I love it. I think as time has gone on because at first, I just saw my own experience. And at the start of Magdala, that was kind of the toolkit that I had, was my story, and the stories that I had heard in in one on one kind of accompaniment work. But now, it's an incredible privilege, but also an incredible weight to carry the stories of so many women. You know? And I I can imagine as a clinician, you experience this too of just, like, you carry those stories and, you can learn healthy ways to let go, but they never they never leave you. And so I thought for a time, I was like, maybe this is just me, and then I realized, okay.

Rachael Killackey [00:28:57]:
No. This lack of catechesis is systemic. And, I think it's kind of bridged into, like, a a current passion of mine is just researching, purity culture, like, the role of purity culture in the Catholic Church and because purity culture was largely an evangelical movement, but it absolutely bled into Catholicism and we kind of had we have our own version of it. And so I'm still I'm still doing a lot of research and, and writing on that topic and stuff forthcoming. But Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:29:29]:
Would you mind, Rachael, just, like, in a nutshell, what do you mean when you say purity culture? Like, what does that phrase entail when you think of it?

Rachael Killackey [00:29:37]:
Yeah. Right now, I generically describe purity culture as, any movement, any ideology, any education of sexuality or chastity that holds sexual purity as the highest moral good and sexual sin as the lowest moral failure and saw purity sexual purity well, purity as a virtue collapsed into solely sexual purity, first of all, in kind of an external reality. And then, kind of saw purity as something that we all are born with and hold, and then once marred is marred forever, which is, I mean, one of my kind of nerdy, like, theological research angles to this is, like, that that's not that's not in line with an Aristotelian view of Virtue. It's not in line with a Thomistic view of Virtue. So it's actually very much not Catholic theology to treat purity that way, but that's, you know, song for another time. So I think a lot of the the leaving out of women came from a purity culture mindset, because also within purity culture, men's sexual agency, men's sexual, drive, which is ultimately a very good thing intended by God. Right? It was acknowledged, but it was also often kind of typified as, like, out of control, so a little animalistic. It was acknowledged that men could be very, visual, very prone to lust because of that, that sort of thing.

Rachael Killackey [00:31:10]:
But out of that kind of acknowledgment of men's struggle that sometimes became, you know, too reductionist and too extreme, out of that came these harsh stereotypes and these deep generalizations. So if men are visual and sexual, then women must not be. And I think it ended up putting this this pressure on women to kind of be, like, the gatekeeper of sexual purity. So and that's just kind of historically been the case even outside of the church, right, is, like, the sexual misbehavior of men is overlooked or celebrated, and the sexual misbehavior of women has been blamed and even criminalized. Right? We see this even in the gospels. One of my favorite gospel passages is John 8, a woman caught in adultery. We use it all the time in Magdala, for women to reflect on. It says nothing about dragging the man who is caught in adultery to stoning.

Rachael Killackey [00:32:04]:
Right? It's her. You know? So this is kind of just historically been the case. And I think purity culture placed so much emphasis on the physical purity of women, and it didn't acknowledge their drive. It didn't acknowledge their agency. It didn't acknowledge, like, I mean, the complexity of the female drive either, like, in the complexity of female sexuality, which I think is where this an important kind of distinction is hormonally speaking. Yes. Men experience a lot of consistency of libido. So that's going to contribute itself to their sexual behavior.

Rachael Killackey [00:32:43]:
Women experience fluctuation, typically. Some some would have more consistent drives, but that's very rare. Most women experience drives in accordance with the fluctuation of their hormones. So they're going to experience right. You know, we, as women, are going to experience a spike around the time of ovulation. Right? Like a a big old spike in libido. So a lot of women in Magdala, that's when they will engage in their compulsive sexual behaviors. And sometimes it's the only time of the month that they do, but they'll go on a binge for several days at a time.

Rachael Killackey [00:33:17]:
But, oh, you know, a lot of times this isn't acknowledged as addiction or, you know, this is kind of overlooked because we think of addiction as something you do every day, which isn't necessarily true. But I think, yeah, just kind of in our purity culture, chastity, education, we just focused heavily on men because the porn industry also was created to target men. But I think over time, they realized they were missing a massive target market by not including women as well. So even we've seen we've seen an increase of numbers of of women engaging in pornography and other sexual behaviors primarily since kind of the dawn of the Internet and, like, streaming pornography. So, it's been a good 20 plus years, but we are pretty late to the party on acknowledging it. So there's, like, a whole sorry. My toddler is she's with a babysitter, but she's crying. So something has happened.

Rachael Killackey [00:34:14]:
But, but, yeah, there's so many I know I'm jumping all over the place. There's so many reasons why women got overlooked, but I think it's and I I think the danger is not just in that we were overlooked and kinda went unacknowledged. It's at that simultaneously, that pressure to be the counterpart to men's lack of sexual purity was also placed on us. I remember hearing stuff in my own kind of chastity education about, like, you set the standard for sexual purity in a relationship. So if you set the standard, like, a guy will rise up to you. And as a 16 year old who was engaging in pornography consumption, my thought is, if I'm the standard, what can I hope for then? You know? Wow. And it was never this chastity as a co responsibility. It takes conversation.

Rachael Killackey [00:35:03]:
It takes acts of self mastery and will on the part of both people in the couple. Yeah. I was I was told plenty of things. Like, you know, your struggle is gonna be primarily an emotional virtue, and, that was not the case for me. You know? So it's it's just kind of like these these generalizations. How I like to put it is that we gendered the problem when we should have gendered the solution. So, lust is a human problem, but it should take, the solution and the healing should take a masculine and a feminine form. Mhmm.

Rachael Killackey [00:35:35]:
That's why Magdala is an all female community is because we are focused on what does the female healing journey look like? What does it look like to heal as women? Because I think in sexuality or just sexually related topics, we should be able to heal, like, with people of the same sex. That's the there's something incredibly powerful about that. You see that in brotherhood, in, in men in recovery too. But, we gendered the problem. We we made porn a guy's issue, and then, I don't know, other women didn't have too many acknowledgment of sexual issues. It was like modesty, you're gonna think about your wedding too much. You know, just like kind of these emotional things.

Kenna Millea [00:36:16]:
Mhmm.

Rachael Killackey [00:36:17]:
But, yeah, just this pressure of just make it easier for men as much as possible, and not the space to acknowledge our own flaws. So it was a very, very long roundabout explanation. Oh, no. I think about this all the time. This is what keeps me up at night. Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:36:32]:
Yes, that's what it means to have a passion.

Rachael Killackey [00:36:34]:
Right? Like, to be Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:36:35]:
On fire for something. So I wanna come back to, what you said about, to to gender the solution and to respond to women to help them receive healing Mhmm. In a way that speaks to their gender. Can you say more about that and what you're learning Yeah. Magdala, is really impactful for women?

Rachael Killackey [00:36:57]:
Yeah. I think women heal through relationship in a very powerful way. I think there's something, just from the men that I I know who have shared their stories with me or or just even professionally encountering stories over the years of men, there's something deeply healing for men and just accountability of, like, facing another man as an example. 90. Right? Exodus 90. Quintessential example. Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:37:24]:
Your exodus 90 group set up. Like

Rachael Killackey [00:37:27]:
Yeah. That's why it's so powerful for so many men and praise God for it. Because it calls on it calls on that masculine heart of, like, ownership, strength, courage. Like, yeah, these beautiful parts of the masculine heart. And those parts are present in the female heart as well, but what we've seen to be so powerful is just like women are so capable of deep strength and vulnerability, of just, like, exposing their stories, laying their hearts open, creating space for other women in their hearts. I think that's, yeah, just this ability to be relational. Like Edith Stein says, the destiny of every woman is to be a bride and mother. Mother.

Rachael Killackey [00:38:07]:
Right? So there's something just so relational about the heart of woman. And it's the antithesis to what porn teaches us to do, to what compulsive behavior, sexually teaches us to do, which is just to think of ourselves, to close ourselves off, for whatever reason. But seeing women turn that into a reason to open their hearts up and turn that into a reason to extend grace and love to one another is incredibly powerful. It's like a paradox. So group recovery, I think, really uniquely works for women. We've seen that. But often just even that, like, first acknowledgment is huge. Women just need to share.

Rachael Killackey [00:38:49]:
They need to share their stories. They need to be heard, understood. I think that's a big one. It's just understood of, especially kind of in the face of the Church being behind on acknowledgment. There's just so much healing for women and understanding. But, yeah, we're we're learning every day what works for women. It's been super interesting just to see my own kind of thoughts evolve on how we need to structure our organization over time because of that. But those two tenets of making space for community and reception of story are just kind of, those are still the integral parts of what we see as the the female recovery journey.

Kenna Millea [00:39:30]:
Yeah. No. That that makes sense. I mean, it certainly speaks to me as a therapist. You know? I mean, I think that's that's my work. I mean, what you're describing, is in so many ways, I get this privileged seat as therapist to hear stories and to connect with people's stories that they maybe aren't ready yet to share, with others in their life. Yes. They aren't they haven't quite been able to to trust that there could be redemption of whatever the story is.

Kenna Millea [00:40:02]:
And so, yeah, that resonates and absolutely speaks to why I think talk therapy is also effective.

Rachael Killackey [00:40:08]:
Oh my gosh. Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:40:09]:
Yeah. Well and so then it it makes me curious too and and maybe even drawing on your own, teenage experience, Rachael, of, like, you know, as I told you, I have a 13 year old daughter. I have three other little bitty daughters and not in a not from a place of fear, but from a place of reality of, you know, what is out there in the world in terms of access to, means of, you know, pornography, addictive behaviors, what have you.

Rachael Killackey [00:40:38]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:40:39]:
What are what are things that we can be thinking about, again, as community of of fathers, mothers, godfathers, godmothers, aunts, uncles, grandparents, you know, just those who are listening and going, again, maybe this is or isn't something that has affected my life personally, and, also, I want to be part of, this, we could say maybe awakening, this maturing in the church, and being aware of this issue, of this concern, and helping to care for those entrusted to us. What are things that that we could be mindful of, that we could be thinking about? Again, to go back to maybe your 15, 16 year old self of, like, what would she have wanted Yeah. In the adults in her life?

Rachael Killackey [00:41:20]:
Yeah. That's a beautiful question. I was just talking about this on my podcast with somebody, like, right before hopping on this interview. So I'll you know, I'm gonna hack into some of her wisdom that she shared too. I think it starts with, just an integrated sexual education first, and, I mean, that's the responsibility of parents as primary educators. I think our our approach to sex ed has just long been, lacking. It's been inadequate. And, whether that's you're not using inclusive language or we're just coming at it from a moral standpoint and not from, like, a holistic, sexual development based standpoint as well.

Rachael Killackey [00:42:06]:
I was just talking with this this guest on my podcast about how if if porn and masturbation are only presented to children as moral failures, so, like, this is a mortal sin, they will hide. Like, guaranteed, they will hide from you, because they're afraid of of being shamed and condemned as we all are, so we hide. But I think I think we have to we have to talk about them as realities first, moral failures second. And that's that's a hard thing to do because, you know, our our little like, faith based Catholic radar goes like, no. No. You know, call sin sin. But we're we're trying to talk about, like, long game. So I think it's hard for parents, but I've told them before.

Rachael Killackey [00:42:51]:
And this is one of the areas I've received criticism and pushback actually is telling parents it's not if your child sees pornography or engages in masturbation or some other, you know, unwanted sexual experience or behavior, it's it's when. I like, at this point, everyone will face this at some time or another, and pornography is is literally everywhere. So, it becomes more and more expansive as time goes on, whether that's through social media, through TV, through movies, through peers. Like, your your child will probably be exposed to porn. So it's not about if, it's about when. And I think parents can be aware. Like, you get to prepare your child for that, and you get to be the place that they come back to, and that needs to be the goal of just making sure that they know what it is. They know how to identify it when they see it, and they know that whatever their reaction is to it, whether that's curiosity, enjoyment, disgust, fear, a combination of all of those, they can come to you and share, and you're going to receive and understand.

Rachael Killackey [00:43:58]:
Because I think that's what was missing from a lot of my generation was pornography and masturbation or just sexual behavior in general. It was like danger, danger, danger, danger, danger, and whether that's moral danger or, STDs or, like, just kind of we were just taught about the danger of going wrong. We were not talk talked to about, like, the reality of this will probably happen to you. You will probably engage in something you're ashamed of. When that happens, I'm here and I wanna navigate I wanna navigate with you back to your integrity. Like, I I I've done that myself. I wanna help you. So, I just think I think we have so much hope for the future as those conversations evolve between parents and children.

Rachael Killackey [00:44:40]:
Like organizations like mine have a lot of hope for what that's gonna bring. I think I think that could even be preventative of addiction because it's just we have to be received. I think also just inclusive language, is huge. So kind of ending that that gendering of the problem, teaching, boys and girls about their sexual drive, their sexual agency, being honest about it. Not over stereotyping. Because I think generalizations are helpful on masculinity and femininity when they serve a greater purpose. Right? Like, something like we were talking about Exodus 90, speaks to the heart of men. Maybe not every single man relates to what Exodus 90 is saying to them.

Rachael Killackey [00:45:21]:
Right? But, but they're doing it for the sake of a wider community. So I I think, generalizations help us in that way, but they can be really harmful when they become rigid. So, we have to speak about lust in kind of a more inclusive way and and then kind of approach, generalizations when stories are being shared, I guess. But, I think, yeah, just becoming a safe space for our own children, it's so hard because, yeah, I I was just sharing, like, this is this is a place I've received pushback. I was like, well, you're acting like the only option is just to receive when something bad has happened and not to like, you're saying nothing about catechesis, you're saying nothing about moral preparation. I'm like, no. I am talking about that. I'm just saying it's not enough.

Rachael Killackey [00:46:12]:
And it's so hard to accept. Right? This isn't enough to prevent your kids from sinning, and you have to untether your your identity and your own moral failure from your children at a certain point, which is so hard. Right? I'm sure as a therapist you see this, but it's just like you have to you have to have enough individuality and you have to let your child have enough individuality to look and say, okay. You chose this and I didn't choose it for you. I would have chosen the opposite for you. And I can accept responsibility where maybe I contributed to this problem, but I'm not going to accept it as my own failure. Right?

Kenna Millea [00:46:46]:
Yes.

Rachael Killackey [00:46:46]:
So there's just so much there, but I think that's a big talk or part or topic in this too.

Kenna Millea [00:46:53]:
Yeah. I mean, a couple things. 1, the the phrase that I use in my office often is it's not what happened. It's what happens next. So, okay, there was use of pornography. There was some unwanted sexual experience for my child to know that and for myself to be considering, like, okay. That's what happened. All of my wishing, all of my shaming them and blaming them or blaming myself, shaming myself, like, it's not gonna change that reality.

Kenna Millea [00:47:20]:
What I do have control over is how I respond and what happens next. So that's one piece. The other thing that you are absolutely spot on that I talk a lot about in my office, primarily with with parents and their adult children, because when they're teenagers, I think they're still just like, well, the jury's still out on how this kid's gonna turn out. And then when their adult children are making decisions that they don't like, working with parents on that. And, one of my clients shared with me yesterday on some devotional app that she has, there was this reflection on, you know, how is it that we, adults we parents hold so tightly to our children's choices as a reflection of us when God himself, his firstborn perfect children sinned. Right? They introduced sin into the world, and he didn't take that as a reflection of, like, I must be a bad god. Like, I must be a bad father. And

Rachael Killackey [00:48:17]:
Well said.

Kenna Millea [00:48:17]:
I'm like, oh, that's that's so convicting. Yeah.

Rachael Killackey [00:48:20]:
Well said.

Kenna Millea [00:48:21]:
So this is so, so good. So, I'm wondering, Rachael, if if you have thoughts for us, you know, kind of taking all of this together, knowing that our listeners come from a broad spectrum of their own experience of, yeah, unwanted sexual behaviors, addiction, some challenge by choice that could help us to be more reflective, about some of these big themes that you've presented to us today. Yes. Really, yeah, calling us to, to be real about what are the stories that we hold around sexuality, maybe related to gender, related to sinful actions. What's a challenge by choice you could leave us with today, Rachael?

Rachael Killackey [00:49:04]:
Yeah. Thanks for asking. I think I think what I would recommend I mean, Mary Magdalene is the patroness of our apostolate. It's been interesting hearing people's feedback of why they think we picked her because, some people will reach out to us and be like, you know, she wasn't a prostitute. You know, she didn't engage in sexual sin. We actually don't know those things, first of all, at least not in a sense of, like, permanence. It was Gregory the Great who had the theory that, she was potentially a prostitute and that got spread throughout tradition. But, what we do know about Mary Magdalene, and this is why we we named the apostolate for her.

Rachael Killackey [00:49:45]:
What we know is that she was a woman entrenched in in deep sin. I think it's Luke's gospel said she was delivered from 7 demons. But that that transforms through Christ's healing into like, she transforms into the apostle to the apostles, like, the herald of the resurrection. Right? And so we just kind of hold her as a prototype for what we think women who receive healing are capable of. And it's not by their own ability. It's not by, you know, their own, like, grin and bear it, like, grit. It's it's, it's by Christ. It's by his healing.

Rachael Killackey [00:50:24]:
It's by his tenderness with them even in, like, the darkest, most sinful places. So I would just encourage people to pray with Mary Magdalene, to sit with her and her story, whether it's sexual sin that's a huge part of your life, that's gone acknowledged or unacknowledged, or just some other area of kind of deep bondage that you've walked through, deep suffering that you've walked through, I think she can shed light on all of those things. One, one kind of, I guess, theory from biblical exegesis is that when it says she was delivered from 7 demons, those represent the 7 deadly sins. So that she experienced, a wide variety of deep sinfulness in, like, every single category. So it's an interesting theory that I like to kind of land on, just that she can be a a disciple of Christ who understands what it feels like to walk through many different types of bondage and suffering. So whatever wounds you're kind of looking to heal more deeply from, I would encourage you to walk with her, and let the Lord kind of show you through her story what his plan is for you, which is to be a herald of the resurrection, somebody who he has so much intimacy with that he reveals himself to at such a key moment. But we believe I I believe that for myself by the grace of God, but that's what he wants for me. I believe that for you.

Rachael Killackey [00:51:54]:
I believe that for every single woman who comes through, our organization. It's just that, gosh, he just he wants such deep, resounding intimacy with us no matter what we've done. And yeah. So I just encourage reflecting on your life through through her eyes.

Kenna Millea [00:52:09]:
Oh, I love it. I love it. That is yeah. I can already see it setting us up for a rich prayer. So thank you Yeah. For giving that thought. Can we pray together to round out this episode?

Rachael Killackey [00:52:20]:
Love that. Thank you.

Kenna Millea [00:52:21]:
And we'll send us on our way. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Lord Jesus, you are, the giver of life. You are light from light, and you come to to release us from the darkness that isolates us and that threatens to to keep us small and to keep us, from being bearers of this good news, of this truth, that that you are our saving Lord and, that that we can do all things. We can face demons. We can face, habits that have kept us in the dark through you, through your grace, through the accompaniment of your Holy Spirit. So we pray, Lord, that we can have the courage to bring to you those areas, where where we need your grace lavishly poured upon, need your Spirit to give us a sense of courage, so that we might be able to walk with greater freedom, with greater joy, and, to to bring others to know this fullness of life that we experience through you.

Kenna Millea [00:53:34]:
We ask for the prayers of Mary Magdalene, the prayers of the apostles, and and all of your holy men and women. So pray all glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.

Rachael Killackey [00:53:46]:
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

Kenna Millea [00:53:52]:
In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Well, thank you so much, Rachael. I'm going to be linking up, some of the things we've talked about in the show notes, including the link to Magdala Ministries website. But for those of you who are listening and wanna get connected with Rachael, wanna read more, of what Magdala Ministries has to offer, the website is magdalaministries.org. And, again, that'll be in the show notes. So thank you, Rachael, for your time. Thank you for your courageous witness for the church, and for, yeah, all of our listeners today.

Kenna Millea [00:54:30]:
And thanks to you listeners for being with us. And until next time, God bless. This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com. Yeah. From one choleric to another.

Rachael Killackey [00:55:04]:
Yes. Choleric women unite. Oh my gosh. It needs to be like a support group in itself.

Kenna Millea [00:55:09]:
And maybe the men who marry us.

Rachael Killackey [00:55:11]:
Yes. I know.