Ep56 Therapy, Spiritual Direction or Confession? w/ Fr. Nathan LaLiberte

"But woe to the solitary person! If that one should fall, there is no other to help."
~ Ecclesiastes 4:10

How do I know if I need therapy or spiritual direction?
Why doesn't my pastor offer more counsel in confession?
Do I need to talk to a priest or a therapist - or both?

In episode 56, Kenna welcomes Fr. Nathan LaLiberte to delve into the nuanced interplay between confession, therapy, and spiritual direction. Together, they distinguish between these different, but sometimes overlapping, practices of spiritual & mental healing. Fr. Nathan shares his experience as a confessor and spiritual director, and now in school for counseling as well. Listeners are invited to evaluate how they seek spiritual and emotional guidance for the sake of their wholeness. Join us for an honest and clarifying conversation that's sure to help you know where to turn for support!

Episode 56 Show Notes

Chapters:
0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
21:54: Defining Therapy, Confession, & Spiritual Direction
28:48: From confession to spiritual direction
37:17: Parish life as primary spiritual direction
44:41: Directing change & the various styles of spiritual direction
53:25: Challenge By Choice

Questions for Reflection & Discussion:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. What experiences have you had with confession, spiritual direction, and/or therapy?
3. How do you understand the differences between therapy and spiritual direction?
4. When have you had a powerful experience of healing? Was it in confession, therapy, spiritual direction, or somewhere else?
5. Which of these types of healing would you benefit most from right now?

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

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Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 21:54 Defining Therapy, Confession, & Spiritual Direction
• 28:48 From confession to spiritual direction
• 37:17 Parish life as primary spiritual direction
• 44:41 Directing change & the various styles of spiritual direction
• 53:25 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:00:00]:
So here, God is appearing to then Saul, all of his glory, saying, here's what I want you to do for your life. And then he's like, and to finish this conversation, I want you to go talk to Ananias. And Doyle says this is exactly what spiritual direction is, is that God loves to use his mystical body to help lead people to him.

Kenna Millea [00:00:26]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast along with my husband, Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader. We invite you to our kitchen table. Okay. Not literally. But you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes. We're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes. It's not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care.

Kenna Millea [00:01:06]:
So let's get talking about This Whole Life. Welcome back to This Whole Life. It is awesome to be with you again this day wherever you find yourself. We are so glad that we get to be along for the ride with you. And welcome, Father Nathan, back to our illustrious recording studio.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:31]:
It's more and more beautiful each time I come.

Kenna Millea [00:01:33]:
Welcome to the new addition, which is foam tiles.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:37]:
Taped onto the wall and laying on the ground all over. It is great.

Kenna Millea [00:01:42]:
Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. And it's, yeah. Great to to know that we are gonna have your wisdom and your perspective on our topic today around therapy and confession and spiritual direction. So I'm looking forward to this. We know that this is a topic that a listener specifically reached out about and others have, kind of hinted at. So so here it is folks.

Kenna Millea [00:02:04]:
We hope you're tuning in. And while you're tuning in, we would love it if you just take a moment, to consider, is there one person that you could share an episode of This Whole Life with, to increase our reach, to strengthen the way in which we can build up the church, build up the culture, build up the world around us, and be a voice of truth and a conduit of healing? So one person that you could share the episode with, that would be an incredible act of gratitude, for us here. So while you're thinking on that, Father, I have a surprise for you. So normally, Pat is the one who gets to be the master of surprises. Oh, no.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:45]:
Are we playing a game?

Kenna Millea [00:02:46]:
We're going to play a game. Well, it's not really a game more of like, like conversation starters and an opportunity to, to get to know you more, but also just to talk about some really fun and possibly inane things. But I rarely get to be in this seat. So go easy on me as the game show host. Okay? So super simple. We are probably all familiar with the concept of would you rather. And my children are really into this game right now, and they have some zingers. I think they spend their lunch hour, like, with their friends coming up with great would you rather questions, and they've asked some really good ones lately.

Kenna Millea [00:03:23]:
So, I got their input and we chatted about this. So I've got a series of would you rathers, and also just we'll just chat about

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:32]:
I feel like the whole Millea clan is, like, scheming at this moment. Like, we've consolidated our best questions.

Kenna Millea [00:03:38]:
That is the general life of a child, I think, actually, Father. Every now and then, we parents are privy to be a part of that. So okay. 1st, would you rather question this is really silly. Would you rather not be able to stop dancing or not be able to stop singing?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:59]:
Oh, well, so interesting thing. And if Pat was in here, he would rejoice because in the Marvels movie, they go and visit a, race that can't stop singing. And so it is super obnoxious. So I actually saw what that would look like.

Kenna Millea [00:04:14]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:14]:
And no. Thank you.

Kenna Millea [00:04:15]:
So it would because here's the like dancing on the altar. Like like dancing during the consecration.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:22]:
Okay. Well, I mean, like, when you put it like that, that is absurd. I have seen some priests that look like like the machine outside of, like, car salesman where it has, like, the floaty thing where the arms are going up and down.

Kenna Millea [00:04:32]:
Those noodles, noodle men.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:33]:
They're like this, like unbelievable ability to, like, keep moving their arms. Like, I remember I was with, a bunch of seminarians. We were at Mass in somewhere in Colorado, and, like, the priest literally was, like, waving his hands in the orans position. And, like, we were like, we could stop laughing.

Kenna Millea [00:04:48]:
And they're

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:49]:
like, this is, like, during the consecration. I'm like, this is It was uncomfortable. Okay. So if I could take Mass out of the equation

Kenna Millea [00:04:55]:
Yes.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:55]:
I would choose to dance.

Kenna Millea [00:04:57]:
Okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:57]:
Because I just I absolutely love to move. Like, I mean, if you could see my hands, they're always moving. Yes. Literally right now as I tell you

Kenna Millea [00:05:03]:
Wild gesticulations.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:04]:
Yes. So that part, yes. Mass dancing would be no. Okay. So if it was if it had to pour into the celebration of Mass, then it would be singing.

Kenna Millea [00:05:12]:
Okay. Okay. One of the funny things that Pat still talks to people about is when you, Pat, and I, and then Father Luke Marquard from our parish were on our pilgrimage in Greece, how much he sings normal everyday things. Yes. Like, I'm getting on the bus. I'm getting on the bus. Like, just, like, rant. Like, that's what I envisioned when I asked this question.

Kenna Millea [00:05:36]:
Or got it. It was, like, just that you sing, like, stream of consciousness Mhmm. Vocalization.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:41]:
Not not for that. Definitely not for that. I would choose dancing except for Mass.

Kenna Millea [00:05:46]:
Dancing except for Mass.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:47]:
Do you have a strong preference?

Kenna Millea [00:05:48]:
Duly noted. I think mine would be I think mine would be singing. Would it I think that would be kind of fun. And, I will say it is maybe not a healthy habit, but when I am, like, pushing up out of my window of tolerance, i.e. about to lose it with my kids, I sing to them that I'm about to lose it. So I'm like, I'm losing my patience. Like, I'm like that to them, and they're like, oh, she's serious. Like, because, like, that could easily turn to yelling, and, also, it's not pleasant to listen to me singing anyway. So probably singing, I'm just, like, more naturally inclined. So

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:26]:
That is fascinating. So if you ever to sing me, I will know there is a smackdown coming.

Kenna Millea [00:06:29]:
I'm on the brink. Yes. The brink of meltdown. Alright. Number 2. Think clearly about this one. I had to read it a couple times.

Kenna Millea [00:06:37]:
Okay. Would you rather eat your favorite meal for every meal for the rest of your life or never be able to eat your favorite meal ever again?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:48]:
Oh, super easy. I would never eat my favorite meal ever again. Okay.

Kenna Millea [00:06:52]:
What's the favorite meal?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:54]:
So I I really love Chick Fil A.

Kenna Millea [00:06:57]:
Okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:58]:
And so I just couldn't do it every single day for the rest of my life.

Kenna Millea [00:07:01]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:02]:
But if I could never again eat Chick Fil A

Kenna Millea [00:07:04]:
You'd be fine.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:04]:
I'd be okay. I'd be okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:05]:
How about yours? I mean, like

Kenna Millea [00:07:07]:
My first thought was, like, a poke bowl.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:09]:
Poke bowl. Okay.

Kenna Millea [00:07:10]:
Yes. Like that. And I'm like, could I never go again? I guess, the never go again is, like, I could find a different variation. Right? Like, for you, is it just like you would eat a different kind of

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:21]:
Chicken.

Kenna Millea [00:07:21]:
Fast foodie, chicken e I mean, there's a million.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:23]:
I know. But there like, Chick Fil A's got, like

Kenna Millea [00:07:26]:
For sure. Hands down.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:27]:
The everything. I mean

Kenna Millea [00:07:28]:
We call it Chick Millea in our house. Oh my gosh. We've we've owned a corner of Chick Fil A. So I think mine would be a poke bowl, which is like sushi with all the fixins.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:41]:
You could still have sushi if you can never have a poke bowl. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:07:43]:
So it's something to be like, would I have to eliminate the whole category of sushi? Like, would that be actually a more fair way to ask this question? And if that were the case, I I think I could eat at every meal. Like, I really I think in Japan, they do eat sushi for breakfast. Like, I think they don't really distinguish between breakfast, lunch, dinner. I think. So, yeah, I'm gonna go with it.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:08:06]:
Generalization, sure.

Kenna Millea [00:08:08]:
I think I think I've read that. I think I watched that on a documentary once. That's awesome. Someone fact check me there. Okay. Number 3. Would you rather have to wear socks in the summer or no socks in the winter? Okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:08:24]:
Again Mister Minnesota. Why these are easy questions for me, but, like, I I must have strong opinions. That must speak what it comes down to. I would rather have no socks in the winter. Fascinating.

Kenna Millea [00:08:34]:
Yeah. I'm a 180 degrees opposite of you.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:08:36]:
Yeah. I don't socks are gross. I wear them every day. So just in case you're curious. Alright? But I do I like, one of the rituals at the end of my day that I revel in is taking my socks off.

Kenna Millea [00:08:47]:
Is that a is that a male thing? I don't mean to gender check. I'm like, my boys leave their socks all over the house. Like girls don't? No. No. Not I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:08:54]:
mean, they

Kenna Millea [00:08:55]:
are more predictable Okay. About, like, where they're like, I find them in places

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:08:58]:
that I'm,

Kenna Millea [00:08:59]:
like, in the pantry. I'm, like, what were you doing in here that, like, I'm, like, what were you doing in here that, like, prompted you? Like, I can watch and I'm, like, wait. Wait. Hold on. Before you do that before you do that, put them right side out. Go walk them to the laundry room. Like, they just they love to discard socks.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:17]:
Glory to God. Nope. I don't mind my feet being cold either. So, like, I know some people, like, they can't sleep if their feet are cold. I just I I love everything cold.

Kenna Millea [00:09:26]:
Oh my gosh. I wear the most obnoxious fuzzy socks at night, like, so cold. So so cold. And then the thought of wearing socks in the summer. I'm like, well, I think I just pick, like, appropriate footwear.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:37]:
I wear socks all summer because I have to wear normal shoes for priesting. But, like so it's not a big sacrifice.

Kenna Millea [00:09:42]:
You can't wear, like, Berkey's without socks with your clothes.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:45]:
I I just feel like people would stare at your feet rather than focus on the Mass. I mean

Kenna Millea [00:09:49]:
Feet are very they're a touchy subject.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:51]:
I I don't see shoes. Oh, okay. I I don't do you see shoes? Yeah. Alright. Some people, like, it's, like, off the radar. So, like, I know, like, people get, like, all expensive shoes and things like this. I don't even see them.

Kenna Millea [00:10:02]:
Oh, not even paying attention. Just blends right into my

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:10:05]:
shoes. Hey, human. I see colors more than shoes because, like, all I wear is black all day.

Kenna Millea [00:10:12]:
True.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:10:12]:
So people are wearing bright colors.

Kenna Millea [00:10:13]:
I'm like,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:10:14]:
oh my gosh. That's amazing.

Kenna Millea [00:10:15]:
Yes. Like a glass of water in my desert of of black from neck to toe. Okay. We have 2 more. Would you rather have a really loud voice or be barely audible?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:10:32]:
Barely audible.

Kenna Millea [00:10:34]:
Okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:10:34]:
Voice modulation is a serious disorder, Tina. I mean, like, it's like Will Ferrell's skit on SNL. But I I don't know. I I I've been I think it's just because I hear confessions. Yeah. And what always makes me so uncomfortable as a confessor is when the person's confessing too loud, and I know other people can hear, but you can't do anything because a lot of the time, like, they

Kenna Millea [00:10:57]:
have like, some hearing problem. Hard of hearing. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:11:00]:
So they're just like, bless me, Father. I've said here, like Yeah. Please. Like and they're like and I did this and this. They're like, okay. Everyone in line is now participating.

Kenna Millea [00:11:08]:
Do you feel like you have to meet them at that volume? Like, are you worried that they

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:11:11]:
have No. It's it's just Okay. I I know what the receiving of that is like, and I would rather have people say, I can't hear you. I can't hear you.

Kenna Millea [00:11:19]:
I see, I see.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:11:19]:
Plus, I'm I know sign language, and so, like, voicing inaudible is not huge for me.

Kenna Millea [00:11:24]:
And interestingly, I would rather be loud.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:11:26]:
You'd be because you are soft.

Kenna Millea [00:11:28]:
I that's funny because I think I'm incredibly loud.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:11:31]:
Okay. Whose microphone got turned up by Pat before he left?

Kenna Millea [00:11:34]:
True story. But that's just, like, because I'm right here. But, like, I feel like in every day, like, just yeah. When I think about our family life, I'm like, we are so loud, like, just shouting at each other all the time.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:11:47]:
And you wanna maintain that?

Kenna Millea [00:11:49]:
I guess so. Like, it feels like it feels like it's necessary. Like, it feels like this is what it takes to be heard over the din that is a lot of children. So I don't know.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:11:59]:
Of course. Alright. I'll give you

Kenna Millea [00:12:01]:
Last question. Would you rather I thought of I thought of Marvel Cinematic Universe with this one. Would you rather be able to fly or be able to turn invisible?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:12:11]:
Oh, man. I have thought about superpowers so many times. Yeah? Maybe in a couple holy hours too. But, but Jesus, I will be a superhero for you if you give me this. I so I love heights, but I, I don't like to stand out. And I think if you flew, you would stand out.

Kenna Millea [00:12:34]:
Yeah. Unless we all get this superpower. Unless you're praying for all of us.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:12:37]:
Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yes. Everyone, Lord. Just like Moses was praying with spirit of God would descend upon the people. Yes. I I the Pentecost of flight.

Kenna Millea [00:12:45]:
So to be invisible would be the literal opposite of standing out.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:12:49]:
That is correct. And you would literally blend in. And, like, I don't I think I I wouldn't use it for, like, creepy, like, where you're just, like Right. You're in a room and no one knows. Like, I think it would more so just be, like, and now it's private time, and I don't have to get watched by anyone, or I can't be disturbed, or I can easily I can just, like, vanish. Yeah. I think it also too like, I love to just, like, watch people in, like, Mall of America or, like, my state fair. State fair is one of my all time favorite things.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:17]:
It is the Minnesota great get together and also to the Minnesota, like, where did you come from?

Kenna Millea [00:13:21]:
Yes.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:21]:
I mean, where have you been all year? Because I have never seen this demographic of people before.

Kenna Millea [00:13:25]:
Yes.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:26]:
And just to be able to, like, watch people interact with each other in a natural way would be fascinating.

Kenna Millea [00:13:31]:
Without being known that that's what you're doing.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:33]:
And you would choose

Kenna Millea [00:13:35]:
Okay. So when you said the heights thing, all of a sudden it occurred to me, if I choose flying, do I suddenly also become much more comfortable with heights? Because I'm not terribly comfortable with heights. What if I just, like, flew at, like, 2 story house level? Like, what I thought of was, like, how much more efficient I could get from place to place.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:52]:
I love it. Efficiency was okay. So you're choosing, like, weird values for certain powers.

Kenna Millea [00:13:57]:
So because I could, like, go as the crow flies. Right? Instead of having to, like, bend by the river and, like, wait until I can cross over on that bridge, like, I could just, like, get home. So but then you brought out the heights. So now I'm, like, dang. But I can't really see any reason why I'd wanna be invisible. So I think just, like, process of elimination, it leaves me with Okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:16]:
K. Let me give you a reason. Ready? K. Mom, mom, mom, mom, mom, mom.

Kenna Millea [00:14:19]:
Oh, my gosh. How did I forget that so fast? Being henpecked to death. Okay. Right. Okay. And, invisible, you're right. If I could, like, be they'd be, like, why are the dishes doing themselves? Because it's after dinner and mom cannot have any more sensory overload from all of you. Okay.

Kenna Millea [00:14:35]:
Well, thank you for playing my game.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:36]:
You're welcome.

Kenna Millea [00:14:37]:
Well done. Pat is more maybe more creative with his games, but I That was great. Know a lot about you. So

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:42]:
Thank you much. Your growth edge is astonishing.

Kenna Millea [00:14:44]:
I'll tell my children that the game passed with flying colors. Which brings us to our check-in, our high and hard time, Father. How are you these days?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:54]:
I am doing very well, but I just feel injustice. Like, I I just got berated, so I wanna berate you. Do what now? Berate you with the questions

Kenna Millea [00:15:02]:
Oh, okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:03]:
Of how you are doing.

Kenna Millea [00:15:04]:
Oh, I see. I see. I'm turning

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:06]:
on you. I'm making you lead. I'm making you lead.

Kenna Millea [00:15:08]:
You're not the only one with surprises. I am. Okeydoke. Okay. High and hard lately. Well, my hard, you and I were talking about this before we jumped on, is just there is some stuff going on related to being a small business owner and it is tricky. Like, it's when you think about the desire to share your passion and to share your idea of how to do something, like offer therapy to others, you don't I didn't necessarily think about how much of that work would be consumed with behind the scenes administrative things. I thought about supporting therapists.

Kenna Millea [00:15:47]:
I thought about, you know, championing them and advocating for them and helping them set good boundaries. And, like, all those things behind the scenes, I thought about, but I did not consider a lot of the, like, legal tax law things, which is what Pat and I are up to our eyeballs in right now. And just it's it's not my strength. So it's when I think about, when I think about, working genius, if you're familiar with working genius and, like, you've got your, like, genius sections where you thrive, and then you've got the places where you're competent and you can, like, survive, and then you've got your deficits where this just, like, drains the life out of you. I'm, like, oh, this is a lot of living in the red, like, in the draining piece. And so, yeah, knowing, like, how to take breaks and, like, manage like, yes, we need to get this done and also, like, we can't burn out on this. Like, we've there's still a lot of really important valuable work to be done that has nothing to do with tax law. So that is a definite hard

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:48]:
Soul crushing.

Kenna Millea [00:16:49]:
Yeah. And it I will say it also is just so, clarifying to me that it was absolutely well discerned that Pat and I would be in this together. Like, I cannot imagine being alone. And I I really and truly like, I'm I'm sure if it was the case, we would figure it out. But I can't imagine doing it with someone who isn't my spouse either.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:09]:
Interesting.

Kenna Millea [00:17:10]:
Like, to to be able to share the emotional toll with someone that I am, you know, vulnerable with and comfortable with and trust deeply. Like, it it I think it it's challenging, but it also allows it to be, a more full human experience than just the business. Yeah. Than just the business. So that's the hard. My high is, you know, I had something else in mind, but I'm just gonna say this. I got to have coffee with a friend this morning. And it's a weekday morning, and I work full time.

Kenna Millea [00:17:41]:
And this friend stays at home with her kids. And so I just I had this hour and a half where I was like, I could go do work, but kind of maybe back to what I'm saying of, like, my soul is just, like, you need more balance in this kind of, like, you've been crunching numbers and having lots of business y conversations. And so just to go and to speak with someone about motherhood and values and faith and Beautiful. Just checking in about how our spiritual lives are these days and and just to share some, yeah, wins and some ways that the Lord is gracing us, like, that one on one. You know, we spend time in groups together, this friend and I, but there's something different about that, just mano a mano, like soul to soul connection, and it was so, so good. So, so good. Awesome. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:18:26]:
I think too to be in a relationship where there's reciprocity. You know, I'm often speaking with people, and it's a one way street. Right? And and and it makes sense. That's my job. It's what I get paid for. But to be with someone where it's just, like, wow, I really feel like a peer. I feel like I just get to be cared for you, and I get to care for you. So, yeah, it just reminded me how important it is for us to have those relationships in our life.

Kenna Millea [00:18:48]:
Beautiful. Yeah. It was good. It was good. Okay. Now So back to you.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:52]:
Alright. Fair enough. Fair enough. Felt like I was off the hot seat for just a moment. Alright. So I I kind of am enjoying actually the both ands when I do my highs and hards. It's having, like, the same thing for both.

Kenna Millea [00:19:03]:
Oh.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:03]:
I just I don't know why, but I've it's changed how I look at things of, like, things can be both good and bad at the same time.

Kenna Millea [00:19:10]:
And they often are.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:11]:
And they often are. Like, there's, like, this song by, Ben Abraham that I'm just absolutely in love with. And,

Kenna Millea [00:19:17]:
What is it? We should hook it up here.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:18]:
Man, I I'll still remember this

Kenna Millea [00:19:19]:
too, though.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:19]:
Because I I just but it's it's like Check

Kenna Millea [00:19:21]:
Check it out in the show notes.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:21]:
I've never been good I've never been so good. I've never been so bad. It's kinda like the refrain.

Kenna Millea [00:19:26]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:26]:
And I just, like, I just really love those lyrics. But, anyway, so my high and my hard are transition. I announced on one of the podcast previous that I was, going into full time, school, to get my master's in counseling. And so, like, the high is, like, I'm super excited. Like, it's just, like, the fulfillment of so many dreams and seeing the practicalities come into play and, like, trying to look at courses and, like, you know, who I'll be studying with and locations, and just like what the day to day life will look like, what my order of life will look like, which is way different than it's looked for the last 14 years, actually, even probably before that in seminary. So it's just I'm super excited because it just feels like this new adventure. The hard part about transition is that there are all those things that are no longer stability for you that kind of anchored you, and you didn't even realize it until they start to get uprooted. So, of course, you know, one is, you know, I parish life.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:20:26]:
Like, I mean, I if you've never talked with a priest who often their favorite people in the parish are, it's almost always the daily Mass crowd because you worship every day with them. Like, every day, you share the fruits of your prayer. You lead them in worship. You share the Eucharist. Like, they'll come to you after Mass and say, hey. Here's what's going on. Can you pray for me? I mean and it's just and if you don't see someone for a couple weeks and you get worried about, like, are they doing okay? And it's just it's like a little mini family. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:20:53]:
And so, like, that that stability, I'll really miss. I'll still do daily Mass, but it's gonna be either on my own or with kind of a small contingent of students and staff, which will be great. But then the other kind of transition pieces where I'll be living will be different. And also to just kind of when you're not tapped into the parish life, you kind of the, liturgical order, which usually orders your entire life, has just changed a little bit. And it kinda becomes more of a secondary piece rather than the primary piece. So I will be a Saint Paul says one formed abnormally, during this stage. So transition is my high, or hard and my high.

Kenna Millea [00:21:35]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's, I mean, what you said about don't even know the things that stabilize you until they're gone. Yeah. Absolutely. And it just sounds like an opportunity for a lot of reflection for you around, like, how do I get, you know, those Yes. How do I, yeah, acquire those things?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:21:54]:
Maybe I could use some spiritual direction or counseling or maybe even confession.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:21:57]:
Oh, maybe. Is that the end?

Kenna Millea [00:21:59]:
Maybe. That was a smooth segue. So okay. So, yes. Let's let's begin. So, Father, you and I were chatting about how discussing spiritual direction, discussing therapy, discussing confession, acknowledging that there are a lot of overlaps

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:16]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:22:16]:
And also distinct important necessary differences that this could be really helpful to our listening community, who really do strive to live this holy life, a life that is conformed to the will of God. So I'm wondering if we can start with basics of, like, let's define them. Like, let's what are we talking about here Yeah. So that we all have a shared understanding. So I'm gonna Do you want my definition or your definition? I wanna hear yours first, and then I can share my thoughts.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:42]:
My definition or your definition?

Kenna Millea [00:22:43]:
I wanna hear yours first, and then I can share my thoughts.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:45]:
Okay. So, I think I would start with I think the simplest one to define would be confession, where literally you are going to a priest, confessing your sins, like, literally what the what what the document says, number and kind. Right? And

Kenna Millea [00:23:00]:
Can you say more about what that means?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:01]:
Number and kind. So it's like, if there's a a a mortal or grave sin, like, what's the frequency at which you've confessed it? Like, if it's, like, you know, habitual mortal sin or grave sin, you don't have to be like, you know, like, oh my gosh. I don't know. Was it 6 or 7 times? It's just like it's been more than 5. You know? Like, and then in regards to, like, kind, is it's like, okay. What what was the sin? You don't have to give the whole backstory. So it's I mean, just at the bare bones of what confession is. You go.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:31]:
You confess your sins. You receive penance, absolution, and then you're off on your way. So it's, like, bare bones. Then you have confess or I'm sorry. Then spiritual direction. Spiritual direction is when the person is actually seeking how to grow in their relationship with God. So one of the best images that I received was like a triangle. And so it has the director on one side, spiritual directee on the other, God at the top, and the goal of the director is always to push the person up to God.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:01]:
So the director is truly, like, just trying to help the person encounter their higher power, the Lord, and literally help them to see how is God working in ways that they may not. Then counseling is much more of a processing basis where you're just kind of, like, looking at family of origin things. You're kind of seeing maybe, connections that you never have seen within your interpersonal relationships or even how you're emotionally regulating with yourself, your spouse, with other people. And so it's much more of a kind of a horizontal rather than the vertical dimension. That's my understanding. So I'm Mhmm. Happy to receive

Kenna Millea [00:24:37]:
Yeah. No. That's I like that distinction too. Just the con like, how you concretize that. Like, horizontal horizontal, being what shows up in counseling and therapy, and the vertical being the goal of spiritual direction and also confession. I guess one thing I'd love to swing back on around confession, and then we can talk maybe more about some thoughts I have about the difference between direction and therapy. When it comes to confession, it varies. In in fact, my kids and I were talking about this.

Kenna Millea [00:25:08]:
We have 3 kids now, praise God, who get to receive the sacrament of reconciliation. And they've talked about different priests give different counsel once they've heard the number and kind

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:20]:
Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:25:21]:
Of your sins. And our kids were saying, I really like it when my priest is one who gives more feedback, gives me ideas, gives me something to consider. It's separate from my penance.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:33]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:25:33]:
And and priests are really good, in my experience, are really good at saying, like, this like, they'll maybe recommend a book to me, and they'll say, this isn't your penance. Right? Because that would be binding. But, but I have an idea that could be helpful to you. So can you say a bit about that, of how you as a priest think about the counsel you might offer to people in connection?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:50]:
Where I was really excited to get to this topic because it is not an all or nothing. Right? So to go to the and I think the the reason I wanted to state, like, what is the bare bones of what confession is?

Kenna Millea [00:26:00]:
Because it doesn't have to include counseling.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:02]:
It doesn't have to. So, I mean, just to be able to kind of help us to set our expectations. And I don't have penitents that usually will do this, but it would be so helpful is that the penitent literally was just like, hey. I'm just coming in for a cleanup. Like, I'm I already know what I'm working on. I've got a counselor. I've got a spiritual director. I literally just need absolution & forgiveness.

Kenna Millea [00:26:24]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:25]:
And I think that there's there's actually a frustration on both parties. Right? Is one is if the penitent is coming in just literally wants a cleanup, like, they don't need a lot of counsel to just get a cleanup and not have some rando priest saying like, oh, I'm gonna fix all your problems. You know? Here's here's some things I bet you never heard, and you're like, actually, I've heard that for years now, but thank you very much. I appreciate it. Yes. I am a habitual sinner. Or the other way around, right, where's where you come and maybe the priest is used to having long lines. Right? And they gotta turn over a ton of people, like, if it's the cathedral or something that's high traffic.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:58]:
And they know, like, in the back of the mind, the priest, he's like, I'm not gonna get through all the people. And, like, as a priest, that just sinks your heart.

Kenna Millea [00:27:06]:
I can only imagine. Because there's People are hungry.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:08]:
Know, and and they're they waited like, I'm just thinking about, like, the person who's been there for 40 minutes, and then you have to come out for Mass. And you literally look out, and there's 5 more people, and you're like, okay. I'll come back after Mass, but sometimes you can't. Mhmm. And, like, it's just it it hurts the priest's heart, and there's nothing they can do because, like, everyone has everyone's different in the line. But I think that it's it's just important to say it can be more too. And there are times with I can hear when the person's confessing is does the person want to receive more counsel. Right? And sometimes and this is super helpful as well is when the penitent will say something like, you know, I could really use some advice on this.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:50]:
Like, you know, I I committed this, this, this, this, and this. And, hey, I really want some advice on how I can be more patient with x, y, or z. Mhmm. Or do you have any recommendations?

Kenna Millea [00:27:59]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:28:00]:
And I think that it also helps the priest to calibrate better. One more piece on that, Kenna, is I think that so, personally, I mean, I love the world of counseling, and I love the world of spiritual direction. So it is not uncommon for it to bleed into my confessions with people as I'll hear things and be like, okay. I just I need to offer them a little bit more. And, and I do pretty readily try to get right to the I always in my confessional, I always have post it notes next to me

Kenna Millea [00:28:29]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:28:30]:
Because I'll kind of write down either scriptural recommendations, and this is where I've loved this podcast. So I can be like, hey. Here's a podcast Yeah. That talks about this stuff. I can't spend an hour with you. I would love to, but listen to this episode. And that also has been really helpful to give resources out.

Kenna Millea [00:28:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. I is it is it ever appropriate, Father, that if someone says, I really want more help in this direction, and you know you have a long line, let's say, do you ever say to them, can you make an appointment? Like, can you can you come back at a different time?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:29:02]:
I have said that too. So I I I mean, because it's my parish, I'm usually hearing confessions, and I'll say, hey. If you grab a bulletin, my email address at the bottom. If you just shoot me an email. I mean, part of it, I always wanna be super respectful of the seal.

Kenna Millea [00:29:15]:
Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:29:16]:
So, like, I don't I wanna I always say, like, hey. You do not have to reach out. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:29:19]:
Because then there they are no longer anonymous Correct. Which is part of the gift of confession.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:29:24]:
The gift of confession. Well, even if it's face to face, a lot of times, I don't know who they are. So just to be able to say, like, hey. If you want this, you're welcome to follow-up. But just the the reality, Kenna, is I also do have a parish of a 1,500 families. And so if I'm getting random people that come in, like, I can't always take them on. I can maybe for, like, 1 or 2 meetings of that, but, sometimes it's difficult. But if I'm able to even like, I created a list of Catholic therapists.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:29:49]:
Yeah. And so there are times too where I say, hey. I don't have a list on me right now, but if you want a list, here they are. Yeah. And so I I will sometimes extend outside the confessional if the person reaches out.

Kenna Millea [00:30:02]:
Okay. Okay. So okay. So that's helpful. To go back to spiritual direction and therapy, one thing that I would say stands out to me about therapy is and it's been it's been helpful to think about it as, like, physical therapy. Like, why do we go to physical therapy, because something is wrong? Right? So the mechanics behind going to therapy, we have to confer a diagnosis. Mhmm. There has to be a disorder, right, in the book of the disorders.

Kenna Millea [00:30:33]:
Yeah. That's the story. Yeah. And and we have to be able to identify there is something that is not right. That feels very different than spiritual direction where we're saying, no. This isn't because you are wrong, bad, or whatever. I mean, you're broken because you're broken and you're human. But, that feels very distinctively different.

Kenna Millea [00:30:52]:
And, honestly, sometimes people come to therapy, and I'm struggling to confer a diagnosis because what they really do want is someone to just, like, process life with. Yes. Like, more of life coach, more of direction, And I have to remind them, like, hey. Like, we've got to you know, part of my my ethical standard is, that I acknowledge some kind of diagnosis and then create a treatment plan, which again feels different than spiritual direction. But I have to create a treatment plan and be accountable to this and be able to demonstrate progress. And so I I think particularly for Catholics, and I'll I'll speak for us here at the MCI, you know, because we are overtly in this business of integrating mental health and faith, some people come to us and and probably are more, in need of life coaching direction, you know, that area. Because when we go to write the treatment plan, when we go to look at a diagnosis, we're coming up empty. Either they're just not interested in looking at I mean, there are things, but they're not interested and that's okay, but that wouldn't be the focus of our work.

Kenna Millea [00:32:00]:
And so, I have to say, hey, you know, what are we actually doing here? Yeah. And make sure we're we're calling it for what it is, being attentive and accountable to that.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:09]:
I have a little tangent question on this. Have you found that a lot of the things that people come to outside of those that need diagnosis is just a lack of friendship.

Kenna Millea [00:32:20]:
For sure.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:21]:
Like they just don't have friends to talk to or family to talk to. So, like, they're hiring a therapist to be that person.

Kenna Millea [00:32:28]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And and I can say to them, one of our goals could be, how do we increase social supports? I mean, that would absolutely be an appropriate thing to work on in therapy. But, again, I'm stating there's there's a deficit here, and my job is actually to work myself out of a job.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:46]:
Yep. Perfect.

Kenna Millea [00:32:47]:
So I kind of, again, to go back to, like, a physical therapist or an occupational therapist parallel, the idea is that we want to create change. Right? When I think about times that I, myself, or my kids have been in physical therapy, it's been because we want to eventually be able to to maintain this new posture, this new, this new gait, or, you know, whatever it is that we're working on to make our body physically function better. Same idea here in therapy. Like, I want, like I said, work myself out of a job, where spiritual direction, I think of that as like ongoing, lifelong, like, until I, you know, meet my maker and, God willing, welcomed into heaven, like, it's not about something being wrong, it's about recognizing, like, I'm not yet a saint. I'm not yet in heaven, and so this is a piece of my spiritual life. So yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:33:38]:
Yeah. Let me put some boundaries on the spiritual direction then.

Kenna Millea [00:33:40]:
Yeah

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:33:40]:
Just as you do with the counseling. I love that. So I I was able to do, training for spiritual direction the Institute for Priestly Formation, and I've had the luxury and the gift to be able to do some direction at the seminary with the diaconate program and as well as with lay folk. And, one of the books that they had us read was it was it was almost like a classic back in the day. It's by Doyle, and it's Father Doyle, and it's called Guidance and Spiritual Direction. But he starts out by depicting the story of Ananias and Paul in the acts of the apostles. And he says, okay. So here, God is appearing to then Saul, all of his glory saying, here's what I want you to do for your life.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:34:19]:
And then he's like, and to finish this conversation, I want you to go talk to Ananias. And, like, I don't know if it strikes us as weird, but, like, you're literally talking face to face with God, and he's like, I want you to talk to a person as an intermediary, and then I'll give you the rest of the mission through them. And Doyle says this is exactly what spiritual direction is is that God loves to use his mystical body to help lead people to him where it's not his preference that it's just me and God and no one else as he loves to have other people as mediators. And he says that's where we see the first instance of essentially spiritual direction in the scriptures. But then Doyle goes on and he says, there are different means of spiritual direction. And so he says the primary means of direction for the lay faithful is actually the sacramental and preaching life of their home parish. So, like, it's kinda like this new modern phenomenon, especially with, like, kind of orthodox Catholic circles. It's like everyone needs a spiritual director.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:19]:
I'm like, I'm not taking my faith journey unless I have a spiritual director. And it's like Doyle would actually come against that and say, actually, if you are living your life in your parish, that should actually be the spiritual direction. So even like the little bit of counsel you're getting in confession, how the priest is hopefully praying over the readings and preaching, how the community life is unfolding around you, even the books that you're reading and the prayer life you have, all that together should be the providence of God directing you. He says then the secondary one is what would be, like, short term. Like, hey. This spiritual experience happened, or I went through this difficult thing, and I'm having a hard time seeing God in this. Can you help me? So it's not that long term relationship that you're talking about, but more of just, like, situational direction. And for me, actually, as a priest, like, I love this.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:10]:
Like, someone will come and just say, hey, Father. Can I just meet with you for, like, 2 or 3 times? And, like, one, I'm like, yay. The person's got boundaries. Like, I love this. But also to it, it's like the person understands that this is just to help them get back on the path, and then the ordinary means will carry them. Then he says the 3rd category is for the person who's doing an extraordinary thing. So that would be like, I don't know, someone starting an institute. It would be, someone who is, discerning religious life or the priesthood.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:40]:
It's someone who is maybe discerning marriage or, like, you know, should I have a career change? Someone who's actively changing something in their life. And oftentimes, those are the more long term things, and why we'll see a lot of the saints who were founders refer to their spiritual director a lot is because there's so much substantial movement Mhmm. That they need that other voice speaking into them. Like, there's that, somewhere in I think it's Ecclesiastes. Maybe it's Proverbs, but, like, woe to solitary man, for if he falls, there's no one there to pick him up.

Kenna Millea [00:37:12]:
Mhmm. And

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:13]:
it's kind of harvesting that reality.

Kenna Millea [00:37:15]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. That is super helpful. It's interesting because I have this list of things I've heard said about spiritual direction, and one of them is, your pastor's homily should be your first form of spiritual direction. And, I, yeah, was curious where that came from. I don't remember who said that to me originally, but now I can see the merit and the validity of it. And I think that is super helpful to hear, father, because I think you are absolutely right that that in the lay culture among the faithful, like you said, those who really are like, I really wanna take my faith seriously. Like, no.

Kenna Millea [00:37:50]:
Really, I want Christ to be the center of my life. It does feel like the the cool thing to do is get a director, and then there are no directors out there. Right? Pre shortage and lay people aren't getting trained and just it's it's expensive. It's difficult. And so it can feel like, your hands are tied. And, like, how am I supposed to advance in in in the spiritual life, like, in my relationship with the Lord? So I I love that encouragement of, like, can we consider can we really go back to of course, it it requires that we are invested in our parish life too. Right? How are we caring for our priests? How are we, showing, yeah, love for them, love for the community? But, but love that encouragement of, like, see that homily as your first form of spiritual direction.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:38:39]:
You mentioned the lay spiritual directors, and I just wanna touch on that for a minute. So at both my last parish and my current parish, I have been very supportive of lay people who have come forward and says, Father, I think I'm being called to do spiritual direction. And so one, I always like I say, okay. First off, I will walk with you because it's like a spiritual multiplication. It's like, then I can send people to you. I'm I'm happy to support you in whatever way I can. But I have been floored by after these people have went through rigorous training through different institutes all over the US, they pop out. They got their certificate.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:13]:
They're incredibly competent, but people are like, oh, no. I I want a priest.

Kenna Millea [00:39:18]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:19]:
And I'm I'm thinking in my mind, like, okay. There's a lot of priests who literally have no idea how to do spiritual direction. This layperson is exceptional but because they don't have a collar on their neck suddenly they're not valuable. Mhmm. So when I hear that I'm also kind of curious to say okay does the person want a status symbol like well I have a priest as a spiritual director, so my spiritual life is very valuable. Mhmm. But if you have a layperson as a spiritual director, well, then it's it's not as good.

Kenna Millea [00:39:47]:
It's like a gut check Yeah. Of, like, what is it we're actually seeking? Can we be honest with ourselves? And can we see this great gift that's in front of us? Yeah. I'm thinking about, I was, giving a presentation a few weeks ago and someone approached me who is a lay spiritual director, and she shared, a a way in which someone can get connected director around the country, here in the United States. And so I'm thinking we can, post that in the show notes. But, Father, you and I can talk off air as well. If there are other resources that you could direct folks to who maybe are going through situational, like, circumstantial, experiences where they need particular support or are maybe discerning, like you said, one of those, longer term, life changes or vocations, and might need support in that way. Okay. So one of the other things that I've heard said about spiritual direction is that your spouse should be your spiritual director.

Kenna Millea [00:40:50]:
And judging by your face, I but I'm just so curious, like like, can you can you I think when when I heard it, when my friend shared it with me, we were all like, oh. Yeah. But can you give us some meat behind that? Like, yes, we have this visceral human response, but tell us what about that feels wrong.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:41:08]:
Yeah. I mean, I think, so by the nature of a director, it means that you're over someone. Right? And so I think that I always have viewed, at least my understanding of marriage, and you're in it, so I'm I'm feel free to fire back if I'm way off, but that you're going side by side with the Lord as your focus. And I think this is part of the beauty of the vocation is that you're helping one another to see how God is showing up in your life, like pointing him out, sharing experiences, but not necessarily receiving direction. So I would say in the spousal relationship, it's certainly much more of support, encouragement, and even, like, vision or sight to help people to see. When it comes to direction, I don't know. There's there's just something in it that feels so

Kenna Millea [00:41:58]:
Like a power differential that feels inappropriate for the vocation? Or

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:02]:
I think it's just it it it so, like, here's the here's the deal. Right? Like, if I'm doing spiritual direction for someone, I'm not sharing with them what's going on in my spiritual life.

Kenna Millea [00:42:11]:
There's not that mutuality.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:12]:
No. It's like it's because the goal, right, is that triangle again is to say, how can I push them to God? Not to have this enmeshment of, like, well, let me share my spiritual movements and, like, oh, Father, that's so beautiful. And, like, let me share some of mine. And now it's like this weird horizontal relationship.

Kenna Millea [00:42:29]:
Well, that

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:29]:
that's actually what you want with spouses.

Kenna Millea [00:42:31]:
In a marriage. Yeah. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:33]:
It's like, here's what's like, here's my spiritual experience. I'd love to share it with you. Like, oh, that's really beautiful. Here's mine, but it's different than direction. Yeah. So I think it would be, erroneous to say that couples should not share their spiritual lives. They should. I think it's it is erroneous to say that the spouse is their director.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:53]:
Mhmm. That just seems like a weird enmeshment.

Kenna Millea [00:42:56]:
Yeah. Okay. So you bring up something else that I'm realizing I wanna touch on, and that is, like, the idea of advice or, like, like, maybe being directive about what someone should do. So, I can speak as a therapist that is it is actually unethical for me to tell someone what to do. Right? If I if I tell you, you should quit your job. You should leave your spouse. You should, you know, you should start talking to your mom. Like, that would be unethical, reportable to the board, really bad things.

Kenna Millea [00:43:27]:
Right? Like, that is overstepping the bound, and it's it's compromising, actually, the integrity of what the relationship is set up for. I'm I'm really there to be this container. And a lot of what we a lot of these ideas we discussed in, I think it was episode 21 on do I need to go to therapy, with one of my dear friends, Vonda Tiede.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:45]:
That's an excellent episode, by the way.

Kenna Millea [00:43:47]:
It was super fun. Yeah. It was so, so fun to talk that through with her, and to really, like, have this meta conversation about what we do every day. But so there's a lot of gems there. So if you are interested, if therapy is sounding more and more as we're talking with this, like, if that's emerging as, oh, that's what I need, check out that episode. But point being, one of the one of the things that I think is so important is, that we are this container as the therapist. Right? I am I am I create this sense of trust and safety so that you can explore things that may be out there in the world it doesn't feel even possible to utter and to think about. And we come into my office and I go, no.

Kenna Millea [00:44:26]:
No. No. We're not here to make change. We're we're here to talk about it. And then you go out there and and affect the change. But in here, I'm this sounding board. I'm this mirror back to you. And so I'm curious about that as distinct from direction.

Kenna Millea [00:44:39]:
Like, do you share that? Do do you direct change in people's lives?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:43]:
Yeah. It's fair. I mean, obviously, there's no board that I'm responsible to other than, like, you know, more yeah. God. Like, moral malpractice. Like, okay. Woah. That was an overstep.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:52]:
I I always get super nervous when people, like, are like, well, I hear God telling that you should do this. It's like what what I couldn't say that's a little bit more kind of direct than you could maybe even say in the therapy office is something like, you know, hey. You brought this situation, this situation, this situation. I'm not seeing how God is supporting or blessing this. Can you give me some advice and counsel? Like, I'm telling this to the the directee. Can you give me something that would help me to see it in a different light? And oftentimes, it's like, no. That's probably what it is. So it's a lot more kind of illuminative, but there's different methodologies and direction.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:45:27]:
And so I'm just gonna go give a couple of them, and they'll change the direction of how you receive it. There's one that's very popular called evocative contemplative. The name sounds weird as all get out. But evocative contemplative is simply to ask lots of questions and then to pause during the questions responses to say, okay. I hear the Lord speaking. So it'd be something like, I hear you saying that the Lord has abandoned you. And you just pause and wait. And you say, can you can you share what it tell me what abandonment feels like with the Lord.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:45:58]:
Then the person talks a little bit like, okay. Let's just sit with the Lord and just kinda feel that. So it's kind of trying to create this prayerful experience and dialogue. It's almost like a merging kind of a therapeutic practices and spiritual direction. So it's evocative, contemplative, and that's what, the Institute For Priestly Formation forms their people in. So a lot of the priests who are getting formed are formed of that mentality. The Dominican mentality is virtue based. So they're not gonna, like, pause and be like, oh, well, let's just see what the Lord is saying.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:26]:
They're gonna be like, okay. What virtue do you need to work on? Okay. It sounds like from what I'm hearing, you're struggling with temperance. Okay. So here's some things about temperance. Here's a book you can read about temperance. Here's what temperance is. Here's what it's not.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:36]:
Here's what prudence is. Here's what it's not. And so it's much more directive. So if that's what you're looking for, that's what you wanna move towards is, you know, Dominican. Ignatian direction, which IPF has a little bit of, it's gonna be a lot more of imploring of the senses and discernment of spirits. And so Ignatius has these beautiful first set of 14 rules, second set of 10 rules, and consolation, and it's watching where desolations and consolations are existing. And so what you wanna know when those are going on is, okay. I'm hearing a lot of discouragement, a movement away from God.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:47:12]:
Okay. Therefore, the person's probably walking away from God. This is probably rule number 3, so let's implore that. So it's much more kind of using these rubrics of how spirits move and helping the directe be illuminated to it. Then there's the Carmelite thing. Alright? So Carmelite's dealing a lot more with mystical things. And so the Carmelite mentality is often to acknowledge the experience that's happening and then how do I kind of move forward. Teresa of Avila has those beautiful interior mansions and things like this.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:47:41]:
Mhmm. And Teresa of Avila is the one that's famously quoted as if I was looking for a spiritual director, I would rather have a learned director than a holy director. And the reason why she says this is a holy director only knows the path that he or she has taken and can only lead people along that path. A learned director sees all the various paths and can meet the directee exactly where they're at. So, again, like, this is in the Carmelite approach where it's a very unique individualistic direction of, okay, how do I format myself to the person who's coming?

Kenna Millea [00:48:18]:
That's super helpful. I had no idea about those, and, yeah, that's I'd I guess part of me is, like, well, if we don't even have the luxury of having a lot of directors in abundance, I maybe don't get to be choosy. Beggars don't get to be choosers. But to just understand kind of the the system in which the direction is being done, like, that is really, really helpful. Okay. So one thing I was curious about, Father, is I I've had people suggest or ex actually go through this, spiritual direction as a couple when they are discerning maybe a decision. I had some friends who were considering taking on, like, a co leadership, like, ministry responsibility, and so they receive direction as a couple. And so, I was just thinking about, like, oh, couples therapy versus because, absolutely, couples therapy is another place where people come to me around life changes and, you know, big times of transition.

Kenna Millea [00:49:19]:
Have you had experience with that? Would you encourage that?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:23]:
Yeah. Dumpster fire. Okay. I I try. I I mean, it could just be me. It did not work at all.

Kenna Millea [00:49:28]:
Yeah. What do you think was so different about it than being with an individual?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:31]:
Because it's that triangle reality. And, like, how do you like, because because both individuals are interacting with God on us

Kenna Millea [00:49:38]:
I mean In different ways.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:39]:
So here let me just step back for one second. Okay? So when I'm doing, engagement kind of preparation, preparation for marriage, I'll usually tell the couple. I'll talk about praying with one another. And I I'll always say I know this is a really vulnerable thing, and I I learned early in my priesthood how strangely vulnerable this. Because in seminar, you're talking about your spiritual movements and blah blah blah blah. But you realize that people don't usually share that because it's the most intimate part of them. And I had this couple who was cohabitating, and they were like, you know, I said, well, do you pray together? And the woman, like, cackle laughed. Like, no.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:15]:
Absolutely not. That's too personal, Father. And then I cackled laugh right back, and I go, you're sharing a bed with each other. Like, you're literally seeing the most vulnerable parts and, like, praying is too intimate? Like, what? But it was at that moment I realized, like, how sacred that is and how I don't know if I wanna share how I see God or how I communicate with God. It's very personal. Yeah. So then, boom, go back to the couple's direction. I've just oftentimes found that, like, God will speak to the individual person, and then as they share it together as a couple, it's for them then to start to discern with each other versus to have that 3rd party as a director, which almost feels invasive.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:58]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:59]:
I tried it again, the dumpster fire reality. So then after that didn't work, I separated the couple. And so I said, okay. I'll meet with him, from 2 to 3 and then her from 3 to 4. That worked amazing because the one spouse would go into holy hour, do a hour of adoration while the other one's coming to me. And then on the drive home, they would share each other's spiritual things, and then they would do the work together. Mhmm. And I just found, like, unbelievable fruitfulness through that.

Kenna Millea [00:51:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. And thank you for that alternate route. But, yeah, that struck me as, like, I could absolutely see, you know, maybe in retrospect, Pat and I should have been in some kind of conjoined therapy direction as we started the MCI. But, but I could see where a couple really wants that outside perspective, and a question of, like, how do we get that? So okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:49]:
Have you heard it successfully done?

Kenna Millea [00:51:52]:
I mean, I don't know what success is. Like, I mean, I've had friends who came to a decision, you know, because I mean, it really was it was circumstantial or situational. And so it was like, okay, we've got this deadline, and we've got to make a decision. So

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:05]:
Was it more counsel than spiritual direction then?

Kenna Millea [00:52:07]:
I don't know. I mean, I wasn't in.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:08]:
It's not an answer. Yeah. I'm just curious. Yeah. So so with with couples therapy, is there any different rules that you would employ?

Kenna Millea [00:52:14]:
Well, I would love to do. I just lit up like a Christmas tree. We will probably do a whole episode on couples therapy because it is such a different beast than individual therapy. And I, of course, love it. I have a bias toward it. I will make I will make one plug for, couples therapy has the greatest outcomes for couples who come proactively, which sounds so counterintuitive. Yeah. Because who wants to take the time, spend the money, and talk about hard things with someone that they're getting along with? Let's wait till we're fighting and can't stand the side of each other.

Kenna Millea [00:52:48]:
That'll work. No. Like so the statistic is that couples wait 7 years too late to go to therapy.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:55]:
Wow.

Kenna Millea [00:52:56]:
7 years of resentments building up. Can I mean, can you just even imagine?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:59]:
That would be sick. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:53:00]:
Like, something with a friend even. Like like, upset feelings with a friend and waiting 7 years to have, like, real meaningful conversations and interventions.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:08]:
Just the arsenal that's collected after that one on time.

Kenna Millea [00:53:11]:
Right. Yeah. We just have so much we've we've so many arrows in our quiver, right, at that point. Okay. So that that Do an episode, please. Is a trailer to couples therapy. Father, what is our challenge by choice? I am so curious.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:23]:
Sounds good. Alright. Thank you very much. So I think here's my challenge by choice is all of us have different various issues and stuff in our life, things that we've went through. And I'm just curious. I mean, how we gain what is what is by actually looking at and to see what what things fit in what boxes. So even just to look back on your experiences to say, okay. What is something that I could have should have just dealt within the confessional? Right? It was just a sin issue.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:47]:
I needed to repent. But maybe I turned the confessional into a mini spiritual direction session when actually I should have reached out outside of it and then, like, had people waiting in line. So, like, can I think of a time where maybe I use the confessional as therapy or con or a direction and vice versa? Right? Has there been a time where maybe I could have engaged therapy where there was actually something wrong, a malady, that I just was kind of brushing or because I didn't wanna make the humble call to get a therapist or even to have that, you know, short term diagnosis relationship? Or, right, was there a time where maybe I should have reached out for direction where my spiritual life is really floundering, and I have no idea what to do. I don't know what books to read, and I could have made 1 1 hour appointment with some priest, and maybe I could have actually done this. So just to kind of review a little bit of your life to see if you can fit some of those things into the particular boxes. It's like those, like, shape boxes that kids play with

Kenna Millea [00:54:42]:
Yep.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:54:42]:
Yep. To see which ones fit in which holes. Yeah. So my challenge by choice is just to kinda look back and see which shapes fit in which holes. Holes.

Kenna Millea [00:54:48]:
Yeah. And and, presumably, then there's insight and wisdom going forward that when I find myself in a similar place, when I experience such things, I know which resource to to grab for. Yeah. Beautiful. I love it. Okay. You got my wheels turning. Can you close us in prayer, Father?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:55:08]:
Be honored.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:55:10]:
So in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, amen. Heavenly Father, we thank you for your construction of the church, your institution of the church, and in doing so, demanding that we rely on one another for support. We ask that you may fill your church with good leaders, directors, that your holy spirit may be upon your people that they may know where to go to receive the help that they need, and that you may provide for those who they go and seek help from the knowledge, wisdom, and sight to assist. Saint Paul, we ask for your powerful intercession upon this journey, for we offer all these prayers through Jesus Christ, our lord. Amen. Amen. Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Kenna Millea [00:55:57]:
Amen. Thank you so much, Father. And thank you to our listeners, for being with us, and we pray that this, yeah, can take root in your life and be a fruitful gift to you. This information, these distinctions, can make a difference going forward as we're all seeking this life of sanity and sanctity. So until next time. God bless you.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:56:22]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Kenna Millea [00:56:42]:
1, 2, 3. Oh. I just wanna see how much noise. Yeah. I just wanna see how much noise I have to make to it's funny because your guys' laughter and voices seems to be registering. Yeah. Stronger than mine.