Ep57 Faith & Flourishing in the LGBT+ Experience w/ Shannon Ochoa

“Come see a man who told me everything I have done. Could he possibly be the Messiah?”
~ John 4:29

Is there a place in the Church for people with an LGBT+ experience?
Does God have a joyful plan for people living with same-sex attraction?
How can Christians love all people and uphold the teachings of the Church? 

Pat Millea engages in a profound conversation with Shannon Ochoa, co-founder of Eden Invitation, and recurring guest Fr. Nathan LaLiberte. The episode explores the intricate intersection of faith, sexuality, and mental health, focusing on how to nurture whole-person formation for LGBT+ individuals within the Catholic Church. Shannon shares her personal journey of reconciling her faith with her attractions and the challenges faced along the way, highlighting the importance of God's grace, community, and unconditional love. Join us for insightful reflections on Jesus' mercy, the heart of true discipleship, and practical ways to support celibate individuals and foster a sense of belonging and dignity for all. We invite you into this deeply relevant and heartfelt conversation.

Shannon Ochoa is the co-founder & vice president of Eden Invitation, where she directs programs, nurtures relationships, and develops community. Shannon graduated from the University of Wisconsin-Madison with degrees in Social Welfare and Gender & Women's Studies.  She has fallen for men and for women, but ultimately she fell for the beauty of Christ and His Church. Prior to founding Eden Invitation, Shannon worked in college campus ministry with The Evangelical Catholic and Brew City Catholic. If you're looking for her, try the shore of the nearest body of water. She’ll be in a hammock.

Episode 57 Show Notes

Learn more about Eden Invitation

Chapters:
0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
10:54: Shannon Ochoa's journey of faith & self-knowledge
18:05: Bringing together faith & the LGBT+ experience
31:33: Tying up heavy burdens & the woman at the well
40:22: The work of Eden Invitation
48:02: Practical wisdom for a LGBT+ person or a loved one
57:58: Challenge By Choice

Questions for Reflection & Discussion:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. What experiences do you have with an LGBT+ experience or persons?
3. What feelings surfaced in you during this conversation? What are those feelings telling you?
4. How have you seen the Church and Christians respond well to LGBT+ persons? How have you feel Christians fail in their response?
5. How can you better carry the burdens of others? How can you invite others to help carry your burdens?

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

Follow us on Instagram & Facebook

Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 10:54 Shannon Ochoa's journey of faith & self-knowledge
• 18:05 Bringing together faith & the LGBT+ experience
• 31:33 Tying up heavy burdens & the woman at the well
• 40:22 The work of Eden Invitation
• 48:02 Practical wisdom for a LGBT+ person or a loved one
• 57:58 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Shannon Ochoa [00:00:00]:
I remember just coming before the blessed sacrament and just sobbing and just not knowing where I belonged, just feeling just the voice of the Lord really speaking the sense of that I have a home in the heart of Jesus and I have a home in the Church.

Pat Millea [00:00:22]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast along with my bride, Kenna, a licensed marriage and family therapist. This is the stuff she and I talk about all the time, doing dishes, in the car, on a date. We're excited to bring you this podcast for educational purposes. It's not therapy or a substitute for mental health care. So come on in. Have a seat at our dining room table and join the conversation with us. We are so glad you're here.

Pat Millea [00:01:13]:
Hello. Hello. Hello. Good friends. Welcome back to This Whole Life. We are excited to be with you here today. It is a beautiful day here in Southeastern, probably technically Minnesota, and I hope it's a beautiful day wherever you are. Can't wait to tell you about some of my recent travels that were beautiful, but also really really hot.

Pat Millea [00:01:33]:
And, it's gonna be great. It's not gonna be as great though as the topic, the conversation that we are gonna have today about mental health and faith, particularly within the LGBTQ community in our Catholic Church. And we've got an amazing guest that I'm really excited to introduce to you today. Shannon Ochoa is here. She is the cofounder and the vice president of Eden Invitation, which is a ministry specifically directed toward people living in LGBTQ experience within the Catholic church. She graduated from the University of Wisconsin Madison with degrees in social welfare and gender and women's studies. And before she founded Eden Invitation, co founded, Shannon worked in college campus ministry with the evangelical Catholic and Brew City Catholic, which sounds really fun. Shannon, welcome aboard.

Shannon Ochoa [00:02:21]:
Thank you. It's good to be here.

Pat Millea [00:02:23]:
Thank you for joining us. I'm excited for the conversation.

Shannon Ochoa [00:02:25]:
Thanks.

Pat Millea [00:02:25]:
And you are not the only one in the room. We are also joined by classic friend of the show, old hand by now, Father Nathan LaLiberte.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:33]:
Boring, boring. No credentials. Just you again. Priest in the room.

Pat Millea [00:02:39]:
At what point do we just call you a co host?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:41]:
That's a no. I don't know. Keep going. Keep going. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:02:44]:
You're not angling for a promotion.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:45]:
I am

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:45]:
not angling. No. No.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:46]:
Just grateful. Just grateful for the record.

Pat Millea [00:02:48]:
There we go. Alright.

Shannon Ochoa [00:02:49]:
Just here.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:49]:
Is this Shannon present?

Pat Millea [00:02:53]:
Present. Voice of the Church present. No big deal. Oh my gosh. Well, let's let's get to know each other a little bit. Bit. Let's hang out. Shannon, you and I just had the great blessing of meeting today.

Pat Millea [00:03:04]:
Well, it was a blessing for me. I guess you can do that. I can agree. You can decide on whatever you want. Do you wouldn't mind kicking us off with highs and hards today?

Shannon Ochoa [00:03:12]:
Yeah. Okay. So I am going to kick this off. Used to lead Bible studies and we would always do this, but I would start I'll start with my hard. I am coming up on a month of travel, and so mine is, like, a projected hard.

Pat Millea [00:03:27]:
Yep.

Shannon Ochoa [00:03:27]:
And because I think I'm just in a space right now of feeling, like, oh my gosh, so much needs to happen before then. I'm gonna be on for a lot of it. Mhmm. So I think my hard is just kind of gearing up for a month of that. But, luckily, I will have a little bit of break with a family vacation, so I'm excited for that. Nice. But my high is, my parents came up to visit the Twin Cities over the 4th July. We usually do a bunch of family stuff, like, at the lake, but that didn't happen this year.

Shannon Ochoa [00:03:53]:
The nieces and nephews are getting old, and they wanna go to the carnival with their friends. So, I I was home to my parents, and it was really fun. I just didn't expect it just to, like, show them around

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:04]:
Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:04:04]:
For a few days, and we did fireworks at, like, the Saint Paul Saints game. And it was really yeah. It was just delightful and just to have them experience my day to day in a different way just because they don't live here. So, yeah, it was just a blessing to show them more of my life.

Pat Millea [00:04:18]:
That's awesome.

Shannon Ochoa [00:04:18]:
Share that with them. Over my mom's obsessed with the 4th July. She brought decorations for me. Sweet. Yes. I, like, grew up knowing a ton about American history. And so all that to say, it was a blessing.

Pat Millea [00:04:32]:
That's awesome. Where are your parents where are your parents living? Where did they come from?

Shannon Ochoa [00:04:35]:
I'm from a Chicago suburb. So, yeah, I joke that my accent gets stronger the further north I move, but I still am loyal to Chicago Foods. I love Chicago dogs deep dish pizza.

Pat Millea [00:04:46]:
With the with the chili and the onions and all that stuff?

Shannon Ochoa [00:04:48]:
Yeah. Yeah. The whole shebang.

Pat Millea [00:04:50]:
You can't put ketchup on it. Beautiful. Yep. We, Kenna for 1 year worked in Chicago at Saint Clement in kind of Lakeview Lincoln Park area. So we we made a couple trips to Wiener Circle in, Lincoln Park, and it's an experience.

Shannon Ochoa [00:05:04]:
Oh, yeah.

Pat Millea [00:05:04]:
It's something special. It's a hot dog stand in Chicago, Father Nathan. As I can tell by your face, you have no idea I'm talking about.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:10]:
I I really do not like hot dogs.

Shannon Ochoa [00:05:12]:
Oh. You The silence.

Pat Millea [00:05:16]:
I'm so glad you said something because I was in silent disbelief. What happened? Did you have a bad experience? What happened?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:24]:
I don't know what's in them.

Shannon Ochoa [00:05:26]:
That's why you get Vienna beef hot dog.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:28]:
That's what's great.

Pat Millea [00:05:29]:
That's Or or that's why you have, you suspend your disbelief for a little bit.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:34]:
That's okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:34]:
I I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:35]:
I think I watched the Simpson episode where they were showing, like, what they put into it, and it was like so I can

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:39]:
tell you that.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:40]:
Every creature, and I was like, there's no way that's real. So I'm like, mom, what's in a hot dog? And she's like, oh, honey. I don't know.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:46]:
Shatter that time. Never again.

Pat Millea [00:05:49]:
The end of innocence.

Shannon Ochoa [00:05:51]:
Okay. Wow. I think the hot dog I'm

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:54]:
happy for

Pat Millea [00:05:54]:
you both. Congratulations.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:55]:
Oh, man.

Pat Millea [00:05:55]:
What do you do on the 4th July? You have, like, salad or something? You know,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:57]:
I had watermelon. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. It's American. It's like a consolation prize. Oh my gosh. Okay.

Pat Millea [00:06:12]:
Oh my gosh. Well I didn't mean to blend this into your highs and hards Father but This

Shannon Ochoa [00:06:16]:
is your hard.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:18]:
Hardest I've been ridiculed before, not like

Pat Millea [00:06:23]:
Judged by 2 friends. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:25]:
Silence was unbelievable. Just went dead silent. Alright.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:30]:
So my my hard is I am currently in between assignments. So I finished up at Nativity of Mary, which is beautiful parish. They had a just an amazing send off. I felt so blessed, and moving into Saint Mary's in Minneapolis, and August 1st. And so it's been weird not having, like, the stability of, like, the daily Mass crowd and all the stuff that normally happens. And so, you know, you you just take those things for granted when they're there. I mean, I'm still doing my holy hours and my prayer and whatnot, but, like, just not having the normal routine. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:03]:
So there was an adage that I always use in the seminary as you keep the rule and the rule keeps you. Mhmm. And so it has been just, like, this kind of strange disorientation of, like, so what does the day look like? And it's just I look at my calendar. It's like Pollock painting. Like, it's just all over the place. But, again, like, what leads into, like, the high as well is with some of the free time, I've been able to say Masses at parishes that I've never been to before, which has been really cool just to see how different places both look but also worship and then to connect with friends that I have grossly neglected, over the last 5 years.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:37]:
So it's like, you know, texting people that I haven't talked with for a while. I'm like, hey. Do you wanna grab a beer or something?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:43]:
And they're like, whose number is this?

Pat Millea [00:07:45]:
Who is this

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:45]:
Oh, man. It just hurts.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:48]:
So it's been it's been that's been a real high just to have the liberty to to connect with friends that I haven't seen for a while. So how about you, Pat? You wanna close this on it?

Pat Millea [00:07:56]:
Ooh do I ever? So my hard is the the high and harder related like they often are. My hard were were certain elements of a road trip that we just took last week in July Yep. To Houston Yes. Of all places, which is a beautiful city. I would argue maybe not in July. Yeah. Well and especially for my my thin Minnesota skin. I have learned to, like, bear with the negative 20 days in January, February, but the days that feel like a 110 and the humidity, my body is not prepared for.

Pat Millea [00:08:26]:
So, there were certain times of of the week that were hard. They just, like, the kids couldn't play outside a lot unless they were in a pool at in every minute. The road trip itself was difficult but, beyond that so there were, like, some some just, like, human hardships of road trips with a bunch of kids. Right? But it was totally worth it because it it was beautiful. It was great. The the road trips itself were fine. We drove through the night, which means that, a, we didn't have to pay for a hotel, which is a minor blessing. More importantly, we didn't have to unload all of our people and junk in and out of the van two times into a hotel.

Pat Millea [00:09:04]:
So we just powered through, took turns sleeping and driving, made it there and back safely, and the kids slept pretty well in the van it was a huge victory. The other even more significant highs were that my so I it was like a family reunion thing with my 4 siblings, their families, my parents all got this huge Airbnb in the middle of nowhere, Texas. And it was just great to, like, reconnect and hang out with them, not at my parents' house. So it was a funny kind of, like, change of dynamic even that it wasn't just the house we grew up in. It was a true vacation with them. We all still get along really well together. Our kids all play well together. So that was that was really fun.

Pat Millea [00:09:41]:
But then the whole reason we went down there was that my grandparents, my mom's parents are aging, and they live with my aunt and uncle just north of Houston. And we went to their house a couple days. Really, the kids thought to swim in their pool. The whole point was to see great grandma and granddaddy, but I got to see them and and have a good long, like, hour long conversation with them. And I haven't seen these grandparents in person for a couple years, and I've only seen them probably 5 times in the last 15 years total. Mhmm. And it was just so great. Like, we we were surrounded by children.

Pat Millea [00:10:15]:
There were no deep conversations here. But, like

Shannon Ochoa [00:10:17]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:10:17]:
If I never see them again in this life, it was a really beautiful time to just relax and catch up, talk about our kids, talk about their life, and just it was it was really sweet. So it was great. Beautiful. And now I'm glad to be back where the high is, like, 87. We complain about that. So

Shannon Ochoa [00:10:33]:
Yeah. Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:10:33]:
It was okay.

Pat Millea [00:10:34]:
Yeah. This is not the end of

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:10:35]:
your day.

Pat Millea [00:10:36]:
Oh my gosh. Yeah. It is something down there, man. Surface of the sun. Holy cow. So all my Texonians down there, Texans is probably the word. I admire your grit for living there in the summer.

Shannon Ochoa [00:10:47]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:10:47]:
As much as it's hard for us here in the winter, it's as hard as it is for them down there in the summer. Holy cow.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:10:52]:
Mhmm. No. Thank you.

Pat Millea [00:10:54]:
Well, friends, we have an exciting great conversation in store for you today. Shannon, I'm so grateful for you to be here with us. As I mentioned earlier, you're one of the cofounders of Eden Invitation. We'll get into that in a moment, and I'm gonna put all kinds of info in the show notes so that people can check out the good work that EI does. There are, like, a 100 places that we could begin, and they're all valuable and important. But the most important one clearly is your relationship with Jesus and your faith. When and how did you initially come to faith?

Shannon Ochoa [00:11:25]:
Yeah. It's complicated because it's layered and over time. So I, like I said, grew up in suburbs of Chicago and received all my sacraments growing up, and my parents would go to Mass either every Sunday or often, not all the time. Mhmm. But I just was, like, enamored from a young age with my, like, classic, like, nineties cartoon bible, and I just remember constantly flipping through it and just, like, always wanting to learn more from the stories. And I was, like, alter server as soon as I could be, which I know. I don't know. Controversial for something.

Shannon Ochoa [00:12:03]:
It is what it is. But I, I was an altar server. I jumped in then right away to, like, my youth ministry because my best friend's mom was the youth minister. And so I just I was, I think, in love from a young age with the concept of just, like, being so loved so intentionally, by god and also that, like, he wants us to be in communion with one another, and to just, like, honor one another well. And so I think for me, I just was really drawn by that. And too again, because my parents, they do practice, but it wasn't, like, integrated into the home a ton. Mhmm. That, like, when my friend would come around and talk about, like, her family practices and things like that, I just was, yeah, so enamored by it, because it seemed so foreign to me. And so I think that's really where I just, like, was fascinated by the faith.

Shannon Ochoa [00:13:03]:
And from that point, I just wanted to draw other people to it. And so, again, like, at 14, when I wanted to join my youth ministry, I, like, immediately was, like, trying to invite other people and taking on leadership roles, which that's its own story. But, you know, that I think I just I it's the whole, like, I've tasted and I've seen the goodness of the Lord, and wanted to to bring people to taste that too.

Pat Millea [00:13:27]:
That's beautiful. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When when did you, you know, parallel, but but related, when did you come to recognize that, you are having some kind of a LGBTQ experience in in the midst of growing up and Yeah. In the midst of doing all these asking all these faith questions, things like that?

Shannon Ochoa [00:13:51]:
I find it kind of funny because it's it's some of it is, like, I looked back and I should've known more, but it was probably, like, late elementary school, maybe middle school, high school

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:04]:
Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:14:05]:
When I realized I would, like, create PowerPoints of things I loved, and I realized, which also I should not have been watching Moulin Rouge at, like, whatever

Shannon Ochoa [00:14:18]:
I was obsessed, and I was obsessed with Nicole Kidman. And so I think I just was like, oh, this is, like, more than just, like, oh, I think she's cool and she can sing well. Like, I'm attracted to her.

Pat Millea [00:14:31]:
Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:14:32]:
And I, like, noticed that again too when, like, certain Katy Perry songs came out, and I was like, oh, my wall is covered with posters of Katy Perry and one David Beckham one.

Shannon Ochoa [00:14:45]:
I was like, okay. Like, why do I have these up here? And so I think I just started to realize and too, I mean, there was the interpersonal of I found myself, just kind of falling for some of my female friends at the time Mhmm. And noticing that I was often more attracted to and had crushes to, just my female friends significantly more than any of the guys that were crossing my path. And so that sounds like so passive they were crossing my path. But yeah. And so I think for me, it was really simultaneously as I was growing in my faith, and also discovering that I was attracted to women. And I think I'll some context. I mean, it was the initial conversations of legalizing same sex marriage at the time.

Shannon Ochoa [00:15:35]:
Sure. Like, the early, early conversations. And I think because I was like, well, I love Jesus, and I just don't wanna cause any problems. I'm just not gonna tell anyone. And so I I felt like I couldn't grow in my faith while looking at that part of myself. And so I just kinda shoved it down Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:15:54]:
And kind of ignored it, for a very long time. And so yeah. It was complicated to navigate that together.

Pat Millea [00:16:02]:
Yeah. What you don't know is that you're sitting in a room with people who earlier on an episode of this podcast bonded over our love for Moulin Rouge. So

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:14]:
maybe for a different reason. The music and the visuals are great.

Pat Millea [00:16:19]:
All I'm saying is we get it on some level. Not the same level, but some level. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:24]:
But but I do I do appreciate, I mean, one, your vulnerability. But I think that that in my own experience of working with folks who have come to me who are kind of experiencing some sort of an LGBT attraction, it's oftentimes where they have this, like, kind of awakening to say, like, what's going on inside of me? And I don't know what to do with this because I love my Christian faith.

Shannon Ochoa [00:16:45]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:46]:
And so this dichotomy begins to develop where I get to choose 1 or the other. Mhmm. And this is where I I have just in kind of working alongside some of the people in Eden Invitation and helping out on a retreat and and whatnot, I've just been so amazed of how you can break down that dichotomy and allow someone Mhmm. To say, okay. Let's look at that part Mhmm. Of you and your discipleship.

Shannon Ochoa [00:17:10]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:11]:
And as the dichotomy breaks apart, I think it actually brings a union to the person. And so, like, just even how you shared it, Shannon, I think is just such a profound witness that not only is it the work that you have done, but it's the work that you're committed to help others with too. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:17:29]:
And the work that the Lord has done in you and in Yeah. Anyone who's going through a journey like this. You know? That that dichotomy is is the the thing that really struck me that I think is really I I've heard it be really common for anyone who's dealing with feelings of same sex attraction or gender questions, things like that, that, I I love Jesus, but I feel like this. And maybe the world around me is telling me that they can't go together. Unfortunately, maybe the Church seems to be telling me that they can't go together. So I'm curious, I guess, for both of you, Shannon, from your experience, Father, from your experience working with and ministering to, to folks, what were kind of the complexities and the the push and pull of that interaction? You mentioned that they were both kinda going on at the same time, Shannon, of this this growing in faith with Jesus and this understanding of your own attractions and desires. What were some of the some of the feelings, some of the questions, some of the encouragements along the way?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:35]:
Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:18:36]:
I mean, I think for me, I talk about this a lot. I feel very called to, like, just remind people of their inherent goodness and their dignity.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:46]:
Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:18:46]:
Because I think for a lot of youth with LGBT+ experiences, I mean, again, especially if you're growing up in the church, it's you're not really allowed to talk about it or even ask questions about it or ask questions about the faith. And so there's a part of you that, it's kind of I would liken it to the analogy of, one of my coworkers would do this way better because he used to work in a nursery, a plant nursery. But cutting off a plant before it's had a chance, like, pruning it before it's useful to

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:18]:
Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:19:20]:
Because I feel like when you discover this within your experience and you're also trying to live your faith and you don't even let yourself understand who am I attracted to? What is it about them? What is going on in my heart when I am drawn to this person? I think sometimes we get afraid because we're like, oh my gosh. Near occasion of sin. But you can engage it without engaging into some of that space. 1, like, you can't you don't always need to assume that's gonna be inherently simple. Mhmm. But also, 2, I think there's this element to it that, like, you're stunting the growth. Right? You're, like, cutting off something a certain level of self understanding. And so I think when that happens, then, like, it comes out sideways in weird ways.

Shannon Ochoa [00:20:07]:
Mhmm. Right? If, like, I think for me for a long time, it was, like, a lot of self hatred, and, I just was really afraid of myself. And, I mean, that's not uncommon

Pat Millea [00:20:19]:
Right.

Shannon Ochoa [00:20:19]:
For people who grew up in the church and have this experience. And I think, honestly, like, trying to overcompensate by being the good kid in youth ministry, you know, and so I think when that's co occurring again, and that's, like, in a climate where, like, you're not allowed to even talk about it. Right. I think that's kind of how it manifests as it just comes out sideways in weird ways. And, you don't have as much of an opportunity for right? Like, we talk about we actually talk about, like, the concepts of, like, chastity and all that jazz is, like, integration of your sexuality, and you don't actually have the opportunity to integrate it because you don't even know what it is. Sure.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:21:00]:
You

Shannon Ochoa [00:21:00]:
don't even like, you haven't even looked at it to, like, understand it. And so I think for me, yeah, that's kind of how some of that impacted myself, and I know it impacts a lot of other people.

Pat Millea [00:21:12]:
Was there a first conversation or a first turning point where you felt like you were able to whether it was coming out or whether it was, starting to to kind of, have a level of self acceptance, understanding God's love for you within the context of faith. Was there a turning point at all where that started to kind of come together a little bit?

Shannon Ochoa [00:21:32]:
Mhmm. Again, kind of, like, my my story of encountering Jesus from a young age and that carrying out over time. I feel like it was a series of events. You know, I think back to an experience in college where I was, like, serially dating men and just, like, not living a healthy life

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:21:55]:
Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:21:56]:
And reaching a breaking point of, like, I'm not addressing this at all. Like, I've totally buried the fact that I'm attracted to women and just I remember just coming before the Blessed Sacrament and just sobbing and just not knowing where I belonged, just feeling just the voice of the Lord really speaking the sense of that I have a home in the heart of Jesus and I have a home in the church. And I think that was the initial breaking open of I need to open this up a little bit more. And I think too just in the process of coming out to people, I just was really blessed by a lot of good people, a lot of misunderstanding too from other people. But, yeah, I I think that was really big. And then I think, honestly, even to I mean, something I've had to even work through over my whole life and even in the past 7 years of doing Eden Invitation is trying to understand because also, now this has been my job is to, like it's my personal story, and now I'm ministering to people Mhmm. With this experience too and trying to help the church understand. And I think I've really just had to work on understanding what does this mean for me and not just what does this mean for the benefit of the church.

Shannon Ochoa [00:23:17]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Because, again, to my point earlier of, like, overcompensating and wanting to make sure I'm making a gift of myself to the church and don't address this, I think I just started to realize that, like, even my sexuality, which all of us in our vocations and stuff are supposed to integrate our sexuality and make it a gift to the church. Right? But Mhmm. I think I just didn't even address it as much and being, like, immediately, gift to the church. Like, here you are. You know? So go ahead.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:44]:
You know, one one of the things that I really wanna just kind of pause and honor about your testimony is before you even got into some of your experience, you said, I always affirm the good in people.

Pat Millea [00:23:55]:
Mhmm. Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:56]:
And I I just I love that, Shannon, because I think what I hear you saying is that's what I wanted. Yeah. And so I like, the the the the adage, right, doing to others is you'd have them doing to you, like, just

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:08]:
classic gospel.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:09]:
Yep. But you're you're seeing, like, this is why I I was seeking to try to prove that I was good. Yes. Because in my own mind, I couldn't be because of the attraction that you had. Mhmm. Mhmm. And even in working with different individuals who have LGBT attractions, like, I've I've found that as a commonality Mhmm. Is if I'm just good enough, the attraction won't matter.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:33]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:34]:
And for you to be able to kind of go right at the head of it and say, actually, even before you do anything and this is our theology as Christians. Like Yep. Gender set aside

Shannon Ochoa [00:24:44]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:44]:
Is we are inherently good Yeah. In our own creation. The fact that we exist. I mean, this is why pro life is so important to Catholicism is, like, your existence is good.

Shannon Ochoa [00:24:55]:
Yeah. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:57]:
And I I think when we're trying to figure out who am I and how do I fit Yeah. Then we start to say, do I have, like, the resume Yeah. To gain access?

Shannon Ochoa [00:25:08]:
Yep.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:09]:
And as I read through the gospels and just meditate upon the life of Christ, I am always enamored by the fact and, I mean, even in my own vocation, like, you call someone Yeah. To follow you who whose resume sucks.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:24]:
Like, I mean, like,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:25]:
it's just, like, it's

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:26]:
really not a great resume.

Pat Millea [00:25:27]:
Or they don't even have a resume.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:28]:
They don't even have a resume. And they're, like, what is my left and right? And,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:32]:
I mean, even looking through my own journey, I mean, I I was a train wreck coming into seminary. Mhmm. And yet, like, there was this firm calling from the Lord to follow. And so as people in the church saw something good in me Mhmm. That realization of calling, hey. I see you. You're good. It made me want to rise to discipleship.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:55]:
Yeah. And so I'm like, I think even as you're saying, it was kind of an inversion of maybe if I just do enough, then I can be called the discipleship. Yeah. And I love the again, the work of Eden Invitation that's trying to affirm the goodness first and say once you know you're good, now you're free to follow Christ.

Shannon Ochoa [00:26:14]:
Yes. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:26:15]:
Kenna uses the phrase a lot that I I think is a Brene Brown phrase, but the idea of hustling for your worth that, if I I I for example, I know that I have these sins. And maybe no one else knows about them, but I know about them. And so if I just do enough nice holy Catholic things, it'll cover up my sins. Mhmm. Right? And no one will see that. Maybe God won't even see it.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:38]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:26:38]:
But in the meantime, I won't have to look at it so much. Right? And even, like, you're talking about Shannon, not even sins, but even just desires, attractions, feelings, when there's when there's difficult experiences, when there when there's shame that goes along with that, when there's just the sense of maybe not being seen, not being known, that if I just throw myself into youth ministry or it's a campus ministry or if I if I never miss daily Mass for 3 years, it'll cover up these feelings.

Shannon Ochoa [00:27:05]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:27:06]:
I don't have to look at them. I don't have to talk about them, and they'll just never be, paid attention to. And the problem, of course, is that almost I think without exception, they will be made known. They will make themselves known even if it's in a way that's not not as healthy as looking at them and hearing them directly.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:22]:
Psychologically speaking, if you don't work through your issues, they work through you. Yep. Like, across the board. It doesn't matter what you're dealing with.

Pat Millea [00:27:30]:
That's relatable. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:32]:
But, I mean, I think I think I get a lot of parents who will come to me and say, you know, my granddaughter or my daughter or my son or my, you know, relative or niece or nephew, they came out, and I don't know what to say to them. And and, like, I don't want to affirm, like, the lifestyle that they're living. Lifestyle is, like, the huge the huge trade term. Sure. But I what I'll always say to them is exactly what I just led with is, can you just love them? Mhmm. Like, why why do you need to state an opinion on the life they're living? Because this is the whole thing is can you still see them no matter what gets revealed? Mhmm. And so when we talk about an unconditional love Mhmm. This is what we're referring to.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:28:12]:
It's it's not it's not a love that is blind, but it's a love that says I still see you no matter what is going on in your life. And even just to have, you know, an attraction to whatever, the attraction itself is not a moral issue. Right. Like, it's not a sinful issue. Mhmm. It's it's when that's engaged, and I think that that's so important even as you're trying to help affirm the person's goodness. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:28:38]:
Yeah. I think of lots of moments as a parent. They're totally different, but I think related in some ways that, you know, a a child may be doing something that I have told them not to do. Right? Mhmm. Like, don't stand on the table. Don't throw things at your sibling. Whatever the thing is. Right? There's, like, 5 a day, so it's hard to pick just 1.

Pat Millea [00:28:58]:
And

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:28:59]:
Don't leave the door open when the air condition is on.

Pat Millea [00:29:01]:
For the love. I'm gonna pound my head against this microphone and have to edit it out. I have become the father that everyone complains about because it's the middle of summer and the just walk out the door and never mind the bills that I have to pay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:29:16]:
See, and the mosquitoes are bad this year.

Pat Millea [00:29:18]:
Right. And then they'll complain later on. There's so many flies in the kitchen. Like, oh, really? Why is that? Do you think? Anyway, I just whoo hoo.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:29:25]:
That was hot. Just, like, exploded really quick.

Pat Millea [00:29:28]:
This is not like

Shannon Ochoa [00:29:30]:
hot takes.

Pat Millea [00:29:30]:
Yeah. Parenting hot takes here. But inevitably, you know, a a decent amount of the time, the child that I have just told to not do something gets injured doing exactly what I told them not to do. Right? And in my lesser parenting moments, I fall into the trap that too many of us do in all kinds of situations, not just parenting, and I'll go down the I told you so road. Right? Which is, like, if you had just not been jumping on the chair, you wouldn't have fallen off and hit your head. So next time, listen to your father. Right? And that's I what I actually want is their health and well-being. I want their safety.

Pat Millea [00:30:08]:
But and and frankly, it's a little bit of fear, I think, too that I don't I don't want you to be hurt. So I'm gonna use whatever tool I have in my bag to stop you from being hurt.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:18]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:30:19]:
And what that comes out as sometimes is shame, basically, which is not what I intend at all. And it turns out I have way more success with my kids even avoiding the dangerous behavior when I just give them a big hug and tell them, like, oh my gosh. That looks like it hurts, buddy. Yeah. Tell me where it hurts. Let me give it a kiss. Let's get you some ice. Whatever it takes.

Pat Millea [00:30:38]:
Right? That they I have to remind myself, they know it hurts. They get it. They're not dumb. They're just, like, 6. So but that that thing of leading with love is risky because it makes me have to kill my pride. And my pride says, I know best. I know what's best for you. Right? So now take that back to that same conversation, Father.

Pat Millea [00:30:58]:
I think that the teachings of the church are true. Right? So the temptation might be to hold the teachings of the church up against someone's lifestyle is the word you used and a lot of people use, Father, and say, this is dangerous.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:13]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:31:14]:
I told you so. Right? Which is which is leading with shame, and the Lord never leads with shame. We have a whole episode about shame and and the dangers that that holds

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:22]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:31:23]:
Where if you if you just love someone

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:25]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:31:25]:
It does not mean that you're signing off on their entire lifestyle or all of their choices. You know?

Shannon Ochoa [00:31:32]:
Well, and I think 2 things. 1, I feel like sometimes as a church, I think people conflate I don't think they would realize it, but I think conflate themselves with a little bit of, like, savior mentality of, like Mhmm. If I don't tell them this, if I don't do this, this, and that, like, they're not gonna know Jesus and they're not gonna be in heaven.

Pat Millea [00:31:55]:
Right.

Shannon Ochoa [00:31:56]:
And, like, then they put it on themselves as if Jesus isn't our, like, Lord and Savior, as if God our Father, like, is not the one in charge. And it I think it it almost sometimes I think we can easily then, like, put ourselves in that place as a church. And and when I say church, I'm not speaking magisterium. I'm speaking of people.

Pat Millea [00:32:16]:
Sure.

Shannon Ochoa [00:32:16]:
Right? Like, I think we can often then we think it's, like, totally our responsibility. And I think too, there's another thing that's important for people to realize. Even from the church, the general directory for catechesis goes through the progression of belief and the teachings on sexuality are really far down the line Mhmm. Of, like, to even believe in what the church teaches on sexuality, and that goes for all aspects of it. Let it be known. It's not just about same sex desires or gender stuff. Like, it you have to believe that, like, God is good God exists. God is good.

Shannon Ochoa [00:32:54]:
God wants my good. Like Mhmm. Jesus is, like, is present in this Blessed Sacrament. You know, like, there's so many, and there's so much more even before that. Right? Prayer is an opportunity for connection. It's like perfective catechesis, and it's just something I think we assume. And this is the challenge of modern technology is that all of the intense, like, perfective catechesis, the intense teaching, like, the more intense things of like, the more intense theological items are way further down the line, but it's what you see. Yes.

Shannon Ochoa [00:33:28]:
It's what gets misinterpreted.

Pat Millea [00:33:29]:
It's hard to make a sound bite out of the GDC. You know? Yeah.

Shannon Ochoa [00:33:32]:
Yeah. So yeah. I think that's just one of the things that's important to remember is, you know, when people come to us sometimes, I'm like, oh my gosh. What do I do about my my friend who's living a sinful gay lifestyle? And I'm like I mean and they, like, let's say this person was like, they used to be a youth group kid, you know, whatever. It's like, well, I don't know. Have you asked them what their experience in the church was like? Have you asked them, like, how it felt? Have you tried to actually understand? And then she was like, what book can I give on sexuality? I'm like, if you're gonna give a book maybe, like, on prayer first Sure. Not diving into the teachings of the church. And so I think yeah.

Shannon Ochoa [00:34:16]:
I think that's just another really important aspect too is, like, we we hyper focus and we don't actually seek to accompany. And we always say meet people where they're at, but I feel like this area, we don't actually always do that. Yeah. So

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:34:29]:
I think there's a lot of fear. There's just a lot of fear is if if I crack open the door this much Mhmm. Then it goes this much, then this much, then this much. And, like, now it's just, like, literally this hedonistic wherewithal, and it's just like, well, I mean, part of the beauty of Christ is he converts through love.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:34:48]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:34:49]:
And, I mean, my my one of my favorite gospel passages is John 4 with the Samaritan woman. And, like, Christ knows all things. He knows that her life's a train wreck, and he leads with, can I have a glass of water? Mhmm. I mean, like, he just he he he was so wise in knowing how to start a dialogue. Mhmm. And the the show, The Chosen, when they kinda show that episode Yeah. Like, I love because, like, the woman is snarky

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:15]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:15]:
And just sassy, and she's like, oh, really? Is that what you want? You know, just firing back at Christ. And what's so beautiful about the interchange that The Chosen depicts is this persistent love of the individual Mhmm. Is what cracks her open, and then by the end of the scene, she's running away dancing telling the disciples, you know, he told me everything I ever have done. Like Mhmm. She was rejoicing at the moral conviction. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yep.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:41]:
That all began in love. And this is the thing is it is cheap to lob a truth bomb at someone and walk away. So, like, that passage of Christ that says, like, beware you scribes and Pharisees who bind up tons and tons of burdens and you don't lift a finger. When I say to someone, your lifestyle is sinful, you're going to hell, and then I walk away, I feel really dang good about myself. I told them what they need to know, and they are not listening to the truth. And I walk away and I have my gold star and I get to sit in the comfort of my thing. And now that person walks forward and they say, see, the church hates me.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:15]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:16]:
I have no place in the church, and I'm gonna go next step. God hates me because organized religion is part of God. So, therefore, maybe there's a creator. All because you wanted to truth bomb and feel good about yourself. It's not even about helping the other person. Mhmm. But, like, when you have to take the patience of saying as you said so beautifully, Shannon, is like, do you know about this person's experience?

Shannon Ochoa [00:36:39]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:39]:
Like, I don't need to

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:40]:
know your dating experience, your sexual history. Like, that's not what

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:42]:
I'm talking about, but, like, tell me what your experience in the church was. Yeah. Like, what is it like growing up for you?

Pat Millea [00:36:48]:
What's it like to be you?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:49]:
Yeah. Like, I mean, like, was was it was it scary for you to feel different and have no one understand you?

Shannon Ochoa [00:36:55]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:56]:
What was it like for you to hide every day of your life? Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:59]:
What was it like for you to worry about where you could be employed because someone might find out about you? Yeah. I mean, like, what what is it like to always look across your over your shoulder? When I start to ask those questions, I like Jesus to that Samaritan woman watch walls come down. Yeah. And people are like, you you actually care about me?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:17]:
Mhmm. And and and now it's not like, you know, like,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:19]:
oh, now they're gonna change their life. You know, I get surprised.

Pat Millea [00:37:22]:
Right. Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:23]:
But it's like it's like now a seed's been planted

Shannon Ochoa [00:37:25]:
Yes.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:26]:
Of love.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:27]:
Well

Shannon Ochoa [00:37:27]:
and to what I was sharing earlier, a place that was dry, rocky ground because they're they weren't able to be they weren't asked those questions by people in the church. Yeah. Mhmm. And so now you're actually making the soil fertile for that seed.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:43]:
Beautiful. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:37:44]:
And that Samaritan woman's a great passage to illustrate what you were talking about, Shannon, in terms of, not just looking only and merely at someone's alleged sins. Like, we can even know what's going on in someone else's heart, but not just looking at that. What what's Jesus' ultimate goal with the Samaritan woman? It's not to get her to end her quote unquote sinful lifestyle. Like, she you you you've lived with 7 husbands and the man you your man you're living with is not your husband.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:38:17]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:38:17]:
That is, as far as we can understand it, a sinful lifestyle. Right? His ultimate goal is not to get her to change this one particular behavior. His goal is to give her living water that only he can give.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:38:29]:
Oh, good.

Pat Millea [00:38:30]:
It doesn't come from anywhere else. Right? And I I've gotta believe that when someone is willing to accept the living water that Jesus gives Mhmm. There will be transformation and conversion that comes from that. Right? Can I drop a quote? Please.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:38:45]:
John 3:30. He must increase. I must decrease.

Pat Millea [00:38:49]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:38:49]:
And Fulton Sheen has great commentary on this, and he says, when this is translated from the original Greek, it must always come first. He must increase.

Pat Millea [00:38:59]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:38:59]:
And if the Lord does not increase, we cannot decrease because there will be nothing in its place. We are not and this is not Fulton Sheen now. But we are not like Buddhist, right, where the ultimate is nothingness.

Pat Millea [00:39:10]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:10]:
Is the ultimate for a Christian is Christ is everything. Yeah. So, like, to your point, like, if you receive the living water, like, Christ is welling up in me, I want nothing but him. And no matter what the attraction might be, everything is cheaper compared to him. Mhmm. And in the moments I mean, in anyone's walk of discipleship, when Christ becomes the most valuable thing, everything else fades. I can endear kids leaving the door open, and we're air conditioning the neighborhood. And I'm like,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:43]:
I don't like it.

Pat Millea [00:39:44]:
It's a waste of resources.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:45]:
Yeah. I can deal with it, and then I go home, and it's not working.

Pat Millea [00:39:47]:
On it. I'm still conforming my will to Christ. Okay?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:49]:
But but but, I mean,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:50]:
like, when you're with Christ, like, you just can walk over to the door Yeah. And you can shut, and you'd be like, oh, the kids are having fun. You know? Like Yeah. There's there's a peace that comes over us, and nothing is resolved except for Christ has taken his seat. And when we get into these heated debates with LGBT issues, we lose what we are about as Christians is how do we increase Christ? And if we and this is if we lose that, what are we doing in evangelization? Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:40:22]:
Which is a perfect segue to get into, some of the things that you do in your ministry at EI, Shannon. And you mentioned a little bit earlier in terms of, helping, you know, interact with folks who have, a sibling or a loved one who is LGBT+ or people themselves dealing with this experience. So I I I guess I'm wondering what led you to the creation of Eden Invitation in the first place. Yeah. And what what blessings, what graces have you seen in the ministry in, the years that it's been active?

Shannon Ochoa [00:40:53]:
Yeah. Short very short answer, I I wanted to see something like that in the church myself. A big thing of of our approach is kind of whole person formation. So we obviously talk about sexuality. Right? But we also are doing formation on prayer

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:41:11]:
Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:41:12]:
And discernment and vocations and all that jazz. Right? Charisms. How do you build good community? How do you deepen your prayer life? Right? And I think I just wanted to see that existing. So that's part of it. You know, wanting it myself. Yeah. But I think also too to the point of and we're seeing this shift a little bit with younger and younger generations, but at least my generation who grew up in the very intense, again, youth ministry age, where we just wanted people I think the 2 parts are, my cofounder, her big thing was, like, a just pastoral response. Right? Again, we need something that's gonna actually serve people with whole person formation, and then, again, that piece of wanting people to know that they're good, because people are so afraid of themselves.

Shannon Ochoa [00:42:07]:
And, again, I know that's changed more and more with younger and younger generations. Mhmm. Generations.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:10]:
Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:42:11]:
But, at the initial founding, that was part of it. And so I think for us, some of the fruits we've seen, a few things. 1 so one of the things we do few things, context. You know, we we do story calls where we receive someone's story when they come to us, and we just call it that. Like, it's a story call because your story deserves to be told

Pat Millea [00:42:34]:
Yeah.

Shannon Ochoa [00:42:34]:
And received. So that's the first thing someone does when they come to us, and then we plug them in through either our online community, or a local chapter hearth group if it's available, or an online book club just to connect with other people

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:48]:
Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:42:48]:
And to process this again about your sexuality, but also the bigger picture of who you are, integrated in that sense. And I think some of the greatest fruits that I've seen are I exactly. Praise be to god. And by the grace of god, I think people not being so afraid of themselves. And people seeing their value and their place in the church. People who I think were have been in very, very, very, very, very challenging places mental health wise and didn't wanna live, find a home again. Yeah. I just I've seen hope renewed in people, and that is something that I just can't let go of.

Shannon Ochoa [00:43:40]:
And so because I think, you know, the catechism, when it talks about people with this experience, you need deep prayer. You need rich community. Right? Like, there's a lot that you need to continue to foster, especially people who are called to, like, lay celibacy too.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:59]:
Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:44:00]:
There's just a lot of structures that aren't in place for support, and I think a large percent of our population probably is going to be lay celibates. Yeah. And so, yeah, just really wanting to focus on helping people live a full life because they never never thought it was possible.

Pat Millea [00:44:19]:
Yeah. Yeah. I just I hearing hearing the way you describe it is exactly what I have seen from afar, from kind of a distance of of knowing people who are active with Eden Invitation and, the good work that you do. Just that I just wanna be really affirming of exactly what you talked about. It's just like inviting people into the place of hope Yeah. Which is exactly what Jesus wants to offer in the first place. You know? And, I mean, a lot of the work that we do here at the Martin Center, obviously, is obviously very mental health intended, and there are a lot of folks who whether it's LGBT+ or some other experience, they just carry this this heavy cloak of whether it's clinical depression, clinical anxiety, or just a sense of, like, discontent. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:45:07]:
And, like, I don't I don't fit in my own skin. I don't fit in the world. And just all all the efforts that you do to help people move into who God actually created them to be, which is good and loved Mhmm. And broken, sure, but also healed through God's grace. It just it's it's such a beautiful gift. So

Shannon Ochoa [00:45:25]:
Thank you.

Pat Millea [00:45:25]:
Thank you for that.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:45:26]:
I love what you call the intake, story call because this is exactly what set the Samaritan woman free. She ran away saying, come and meet the man who told me everything I had done. Mhmm. And so what unlocked the Samaritan woman's bondage was that someone knew her story. Yeah. And so I can't I can't even comprehend what that does to people, and what a gift it is that they have a safe spot to be able to share their stories. Because there there's a book, and it's it's I do not recommend this. Do not put this in the show notes.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:03]:
Alright? Jeez.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:05]:
Got it clear. Okay.

Pat Millea [00:46:06]:
But by all means, bring it up. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:08]:
it's it's, it's called The Drama of the Gifted Child, And it's it's oftentimes used in, like, kind of psychological fields, but it says that the most in innate desire of the human person is to be known and understood.

Pat Millea [00:46:22]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:23]:
And, of course, they reflect on it through, like, the child's lens. They wanna be known and understood, and we never grow out of that.

Shannon Ochoa [00:46:29]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:30]:
And so I think that that is such a powerful way to start discipleship. And even Christ, right, is come and follow me is he's saying, like, come and learn. Like, you know, master, where are you staying? Well, come. I'll show you. You know? And as we know someone and we see them, they open up more and they mean more, and Mhmm. Relationship develops. And if we're the hands and feet of Christ, we need to be his ears and hearts too. And, like Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:46:59]:
Yeah. Well and that's the thing the thing too with these calls is I mean, we have people who were, again, like, the good youth group kid all the way to somebody who's currently engaged to their same sex partner.

Pat Millea [00:47:10]:
Sure.

Shannon Ochoa [00:47:11]:
You know? And it's, like, no. We're truly receiving you wherever you are. Yeah. Because to your point, that's how Christ sought to encounter

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:47:20]:
Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:47:21]:
And did encounter.

Pat Millea [00:47:22]:
One of the the many great crossovers between in Eden Invitation and This Whole Life and and the Martin Center For Integration is that idea of not just integration, but the point of integration, which is the kind of a life that the Lord has desired for us. That he's created us for certainly not a life free of suffering. We're actually promised suffering, but but a a beautiful authentic thriving life in this world with him and because of him, and then hope for salvation in the next. Mhmm. I I guess to to start to, you know, lean into a bit of a wrap up conversation here. If there's somebody listening, and I know that there are, who either has these kinds of attractions, feelings, experiences of their own, whether or not they've found a way to be open about that within the Catholic Christian setting or not, or if there's someone who has a child, a loved one, a coworker, a roommate who has an experience like that. What kinds of of encouragement, what kinds of advice, what kinds of, suggestions would you offer?

Shannon Ochoa [00:48:28]:
Yeah. So a couple things. I think for somebody who this is their own experience, and I think this is important for loved ones to also hear, our I'm not trying to, like, be hardcore promoing in imitation, but our mission statement is invitation creates space to receive the whole person, grow systems of mutual support, and to empower for creative discipleship. And I think that is just really essential for someone who this is your experience is you need to also receive your whole person

Pat Millea [00:49:02]:
Yeah.

Shannon Ochoa [00:49:02]:
And to understand what that means. And, yes, like, that means, like, naming this experience and unpacking it and understanding it. It also means, like, especially if you're in a space of navigating your faith and trying to explore what that means, that's trying to understand, like, what is god's plan and design for my life? You know? I think too, I mean, growing systems of mutual support, you can't just keep this to yourself.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:34]:
Right.

Shannon Ochoa [00:49:35]:
You need to be able to be processing with people who are safe, and it's okay if you share and someone's not safe anymore to not have to keep sharing with them. It's okay to put up that boundary. It's important because you don't wanna turn back in and close it off again, because that's what you're kinda fighting against. And then I think 2 are are bit about empowering for creative discipleship is that you really don't know where God's gonna take you and what God can do with your life. And I think sometimes people look at this experience and they're like, okay. Wait. Is my only option conscripted celibacy? And God works in much many more colors

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:20]:
Sure.

Shannon Ochoa [00:50:20]:
So to speak Yeah. Which is kind of a funny concept with this

Pat Millea [00:50:24]:
Yeah.

Shannon Ochoa [00:50:27]:
But, you know, but I just think, like, where is, like, the the yes and to I think a lot of this stuff is, like, I mean, we do have people who are in religious life, who are a part of the Eden Invitation community. We have people in the Eden Invitation community, a man and a woman who met in the same small group, and now they have a baby and are married. You know, it's, like, crazy.

Pat Millea [00:50:52]:
Yeah.

Shannon Ochoa [00:50:52]:
We have people who are living vibrant, communal lives together, like, literally in households of, like, lay celibate people. It's just incredible.

Pat Millea [00:51:03]:
Yeah.

Shannon Ochoa [00:51:04]:
And, also, too, you don't know what God's gonna do with your gift of self, with your combination of charisms and, like, your career path and the ways in which you can go forth and bring the heart of Jesus to others. And so I think those are 3 really big things. And then for loved ones, I think holding all of that and making sure you're, again, receiving the whole person of your loved one. Right? Being a support system

Pat Millea [00:51:29]:
Sure.

Shannon Ochoa [00:51:29]:
And encouraging people on in their gifts, right, and their charisms, and giving them the freedom to discern vocation. Right? But then I think to Father Nathan talked about this earlier of the concept of what is it? Matthew 23, you tie up heavy burdens, but you do not lift a finger to help them

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:48]:
Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:51:49]:
Is sacrificial love. Like, it is costly. There's a book called Costly Obedience that kinda gets into this. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:58]:
I

Shannon Ochoa [00:51:58]:
think it's Mark Yarhouse. I can't remember. But it gets into what does it actually take to be faithful to this teaching, and it's a lot. And one of the stories he mentions is this woman who, you know, she had been, like, trying to live celibacy for a long time and a close family friend of hers was like, how can we love you? How can we support you? And she said, invite me on your family vacations. And there's a certain sense, and I'm I'm speaking again particularly to the people who are more likely to live, like, lay celibacy, you know, or might not be in a in a classic communal setting or in a particular marriage. And even then, I know there's layers and complications, right, and growth that needs to happen in those spaces. But, like, you don't always know who's gonna pick you up from the airport at night. You know? Like, no one's splitting your bills.

Shannon Ochoa [00:52:53]:
There's a lot that, like, you just don't you can't always count on. And I think in some ways, it's been really challenging that, like, we haven't even been able to count on our church

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:04]:
Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:53:04]:
In some of these spaces. And especially, I think, in, like, modern eras where it's, like, especially for young adult stuff where it's, like, okay, what is this? Just, like, a mixer to, like, meet your spouse. You know? And it's you just can't always even count on the church anymore for to show up for you, especially, again, as, like, a lay celibate, like, as a single person, to show up for you in those challenging ways. And so if we as a church are asking people to live this teaching, how are we laying down our lives to actually

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:34]:
Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:53:34]:
Carry that burden?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:35]:
I think too an important distinction is we have so equated intimacy with sexuality Mhmm. To the detriment of actually showing intimacy to people in that state. I mean so I I love the example that you gave, the part the practical of, like Yeah. Invite me on your family vacations.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:54]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:55]:
Because I think that is an easy thing is, like, well, they've spent their whole life feeling odd. Mhmm. And now they're treated as odd. Mhmm. And how how what do we do with them?

Shannon Ochoa [00:54:05]:
Yeah. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:54:06]:
Well, people feel that.

Pat Millea [00:54:07]:
Yeah. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:54:08]:
And so then okay. So now my whole life, I'm a burden to people. Yeah. What a terrible way to interact with someone. And it it does it requires creativity as well for us to say, okay. How can we show love in a way that may be counterintuitive Mhmm. But is good for the individual?

Pat Millea [00:54:28]:
It feels like the the the Catholic social teaching, facet of rights and responsibilities that every person has, certain rights, a right a right to life, a right to housing, a right to food and water, basic human necessities like that. But for every right that I have, I have a corresponding responsibility for the well-being of the people around me. Right? So in our church, if if everyone in the church has a right to community, a right to the love that the people of God had to offer. What that means is that I, as a married person, have a legitimate responsibility to be a support network, to be that that kind of mutual support system, to invite others into a space that they do feel loved and known, you know? So I I would love to encourage all of my married friends out there to take this as the conviction that I am of looking around my life and asking the sometimes the really hard question like what what am I failing to do because I'm not actively pursuing charity, and and, you know, it's not always malicious. Maybe I'm just not even I don't even have the eyes to see the people at Mass who are sitting by themselves Sunday after Sunday. But maybe I need to really take a step back and start looking around a little bit more and inviting people into a place where where they where they are not alone. Mhmm. Yeah.

Shannon Ochoa [00:55:51]:
And I think too, one more little note, is I I think to actually see those relationships as truly mutual. Right? Mhmm. This might not seem relevant, this quote, but I have a friend who works at, like, a food center in Milwaukee, and they say that no one is so rich that they have nothing to like, they they're not poor in some way and to receive, and no one is so poor that they have nothing to give. And so just that sense of mutuality of and, you know, when you're inviting someone into your life and oftentimes, secularly, the language is chosen family, which I think the Catholic church actually has a huge rich tradition of community Yeah. Which that's basically what a lot of that is as the body of Christ. But that, like, it's not just like you're inviting this person in in your life and they're just the babysitter. Yeah. You know? And it's not just like, oh, they're just a helping hand or, like, they're your charity case.

Shannon Ochoa [00:56:46]:
Right. But it's, like, no. It's it's gotta be mutual, you know, and freely chosen, freely given. So, yeah, I think that's a big part of it too. Is it

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:56:55]:
Good add. You need

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:56:55]:
to be mutual. Very good add.

Pat Millea [00:56:57]:
That's huge. Yeah. Yeah. Because what what is not in what what I did not intend by my little

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:57:02]:
Oh, you're good.

Pat Millea [00:57:03]:
Homily to the married people is let's look for all the sad cases out there. That's that is not what I mean.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:57:08]:
We've got our different vocations represented here. True.

Pat Millea [00:57:10]:
So you

Shannon Ochoa [00:57:11]:
need to speak to him.

Pat Millea [00:57:12]:
We have invited a priest on our family vacations.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:57:15]:
Yes.

Pat Millea [00:57:15]:
And I will be the first to say that we benefited way more than he did.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:57:19]:
So That's not true.

Shannon Ochoa [00:57:20]:
I'm not kidding you. I do a family vacation with my sister's family every single year, and they always do family photos, and I always get to be in them. I always get pictures with my nieces and nephew. I get pictures with my sister and then the whole family.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:57:33]:
Mhmm.

Shannon Ochoa [00:57:33]:
And that has just been, like, unbelievably transformative for my heart Mhmm. Because there is a deep sense of, like, nope. You're a part of this family. Yeah. And not just the one off to the side carrying the shoes the whole time to help us out while we're walking through the sand on the beach.

Pat Millea [00:57:49]:
You know? Yep. Uh-huh.

Shannon Ochoa [00:57:50]:
So that's just been really transformative. And that's something small, but it's been huge for me. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:57:55]:
So That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Well, as we start to give people maybe we've started this conversation a little bit already. But in terms of a a challenge by choice Yes. Something practical that somebody can look at their life and and consider what they can do, what would you offer to folks in this, Shannon?

Shannon Ochoa [00:58:11]:
Yes. I think thinking back to the tie up heavy burdens, but you do not lift a finger to help them, I think there's a few things. I think there's 2 sides to that coin. I think 1, if there is someone in your life where you are aware of a particular burden is to stop yourself and ask, what am I doing to carry that with them? Right? We I mean, we look at so many examples in scripture, but I'm thinking of, like, even Simon of Cyrene or just so many of the people along the way Right. As Jesus was going to be crucified who were there to meet him in that and there to to even just encounter him in that moment and care for him and to kinda carry some of that burden. So, yeah, who in my life what what are burdens people are carrying that I can actually do something to share in that? And then I think if you're actually on the other end of that, I think regardless everybody needs to give. I think it draws us outside of ourselves in a certain way.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:59:07]:
Right.

Shannon Ochoa [00:59:08]:
But I think on the other side, I've had to learn this a lot myself is that if if you're someone who feels like you're carrying a heavy burden right now, how can you invite someone in to carry it with you? Because people don't always see it, and sometimes you you just need to ask for help. You just need to ask. So I think there's 2 sides to that.

Pat Millea [00:59:27]:
Beautiful. And both of those strike me as legitimate challenges for anybody. That it's it's scary to to put yourself out there. I think of, like you said, Simon of Cyrene, even Veronica on the way of the cross. Like, it's scary to extend yourself in love, not knowing how that person's gonna respond if if they're gonna respond with with violence, with hatred, with anger, by just cold rejection, which is maybe worst of all. You know?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:59:52]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:59:52]:
And it's maybe even scarier to to acknowledge the hardship that I'm going through and to ask for help Yeah. In our, oh, very individualistic American society. Like, the the only the only sin left in America is not doing things by myself, basically. Asking for help and admitting that I can't do it all on my own. Right? It just that is so ingrained in our psyche in the western world that it's a real genuine form of humility

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [01:00:20]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [01:00:20]:
To say I I I can't do it on my own and I really need obviously your help Jesus, but I need the help that other people can give me in your name as well. Mhmm. Yeah. Amen. This is beautiful. I'm so so grateful for for everything that you do, Shannon, for everything Eden Invitation does, for you and Anna and the whole team just to to be the the voice of Christ in the lives of people who, maybe don't they're not able to hear the voice of Christ very clearly either because it's distorted from members of the church who really don't know the way that teachings on sexuality fit into the greater gospel Mhmm. Or if the voice of Christ is distorted from the world outside the church that doesn't know what the gospel has to offer. So it just the the the place that you stand right at the joint of that dichotomy is such a beautiful and crucial place of evangelization. So thank you.

Shannon Ochoa [01:01:13]:
And thank you for having these conversations because I feel like people are often afraid to go there on sexuality, faith, and mental health and that intersection, and I think it's just deeply essential because we're ignoring something really important if we're not going there.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [01:01:27]:
So thank you.

Pat Millea [01:01:28]:
This is not a not a negligible group of people who are affected by these kinds of topics and and Mhmm. As ideas. It's it's significant. Yeah. Yeah. Father, you would you mind, praying for us as we wrap up here?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [01:01:40]:
Yeah. My heart's just singing. I mean, it's just to see someone give birth to hope is just awesome.

Pat Millea [01:01:49]:
That's what Mary did.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [01:01:50]:
Yeah. And for, like, people who don't feel like they belong or don't know what to do and to just know that I mean, there's people that have I mean, Shannon, you and your team have just devoted themselves to breathing hope Mhmm. Into a a part of the church that has really I don't know. I mean, it's just it's almost like it's dying, you know, that part. Mhmm. So it's just I I just my heart's singing, so thank you. But, yeah, let's close with prayer. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [01:02:20]:
Amen. Heavenly Father, you sent your Son, to come into this world for you loved this world. And when you sent him, you gave him the mission to go and to seek and save the lost. May our hearts be conformed to your most beautiful son That our eyes may see those who are lost, those who are frightened, those who are sick, those who are alone, those who are bound up, those who are broken and imprisoned. And may we be indeed your Son's active participants in the gospel message to bring them the message of liberation that they have not been forgotten and that they belong. We ask all these things through Christ our Lord. Amen. Amen.

Pat Millea [01:03:08]:
Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Shannon Ochoa, thank you so much for everything you do, but thanks for being with us here today. I really appreciate it. Yep. Priest in the room, thank you for being here with us. Oh, thank you. I'm kidding.

Pat Millea [01:03:21]:
The very talented and loving and faithful Father Nathan. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Friends, I every episode, this is true, but maybe especially for an episode like this. I we would love to hear what's on your mind. What what questions are lingering? What experiences have you had? What, what what challenges are you facing in this kind of area with yourself, with loved ones? You can send us a message at thiswholelifepodcast.com, or you can connect with us on Facebook or Instagram @thiswholelifepodcast. And, stay tuned for our next conversation.

Pat Millea [01:03:55]:
I don't even know what it's gonna be yet, but it's gonna be great. God bless you, friends. This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com. We do do bloopers at the end. Maybe that's not

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [01:04:27]:
that one. No. That's probably not

Pat Millea [01:04:28]:
a good one. I'm gonna add that to the large pile of things that you've said that are on recordings, but we're definitely not appropriate for the bloopers. Yeah.