Ep61 Holy Living in Secular Settings w/ Isaac Wicker

"As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world.”
~ John 17:18

How do I share the gospel when others aren't open to it?
Can I be an authentic Christian if my job doesn't allow me to express it openly?
How do I love people who are hostile toward my faith?

Our world is fallen and broken, and in many ways it seems to be growing more opposed to the Christian life. Pat is joined by licensed therapist Isaac Wicker for a profound conversation about this struggle. Whether you're in school, at work, or with friends & family, we all find ourselves in a position of witnessing our faith to those who don't seem to be open to it. They might even be openly hostile toward the faith. But the call of Jesus is not to return vitriol with vitriol or to run away from the world, but rather to engage others with love and a willingness to preach the gospel at all times, with words and actions.

Isaac Wicker is a Catholic therapist, speaker, and content creator with a decade of mental health experience. Outside of his therapy work, he founded and runs two online Catholic programs for integrating faith and mental health: Whole Human Challenge, a 7-week Catholic challenge to uproot anxiety and enliven faith; and KNOWN: Embraced by the Heart of the Father, a 12-week online Catholic journey to heal wounded relationships with God the Father. You can follow his instagram @knownbythefather and find him on YouTube @wholehumanpsychology. Isaac lives in Minnesota with his wife and three children.

Episode 61 Show Notes

Chapters:
0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
9:40: Living faith in a fallen world
20:29: Being a living instance of a loving God
28:10: A Catholic therapist in a secular mental health field
37:30: The courage to go into the world
47:11: Challenge By Choice

Reflection Questions:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. What secular environments do you live or work in? What challenges and opportunities do you find there?
3. When has someone helped you know God's love when you felt unlovable? When have you shown God's love to another?
4. What is the value of acknowledging someone's good desires, even if they're being lived out in unhealthy or sinful ways?
5. Who is one person who you have a hard time loving, but needs the love of God through your witness?

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

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Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 9:40 Living faith in a fallen world
• 20:29 Being a living instance of a loving God
• 28:10 A Catholic therapist in a secular mental health field
• 37:30 The courage to go into the world
• 47:11 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Isaac Wicker [00:00:00]:
The the message that God is love isn't gonna touch somebody who believes deeply that they're unlovable. But if I can show you even a glimpse that you are lovable, like, that can open up a place to receive love. And then and then god always uses that.

Pat Millea [00:00:25]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast along with my bride, Kenna, a licensed marriage and family therapist. This is the stuff she and I talk about all the time, doing dishes, in the car, on a date. We're excited to bring you this podcast for educational purposes. It's not therapy or a substitute for mental health care. So come on in. Have a seat at our dining room table and join the conversation with us. We are so glad you're here.

Pat Millea [00:01:17]:
Welcome back to This Whole Life, my friends. It is another great day of sanity and sanctity, or at least we're on our way. One little step at a time and, for your benefit and for my benefit, I'm joined today by Isaac Wicker. Isaac, welcome aboard, brother.

Isaac Wicker [00:01:32]:
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

Pat Millea [00:01:34]:
Great. I'm happy to have you here. How are you how are you doing?

Isaac Wicker [00:01:36]:
I'm doing really well. Yeah. I'm just excited. It's I always get really excited when I have the opportunity to speak about God. It's just, like, so good, and then to know that people can hear about him in a true way Mhmm. I just really I mean, it makes me so passionate. So I'm glad to be here.

Pat Millea [00:01:55]:
That is exactly why we have you here. It's because of that kind of passion. We we don't invite people who aren't passionate about what God has to say to people. Yeah. So yeah. Thanks for being here. It's super exciting. If you're just joining us, you can go back in time and and get caught up with some of the great conversations we have we've had, but we've got another great conversation coming today about what it means to be a faith filled God loving Christian in a world that is frequently not very faith filled and God loving because of the nature of the fall and what it means to kind of live in that tension but before we get down that road, Isaac can you just give us a little background about yourself tell us where you are, who you are, where you've come from?

Isaac Wicker [00:02:37]:
Yeah. So I am a Catholic therapist. I've been working in the field for coming up on 10 years now, and I just love it. I really love it. I'm I'm married. My wife and I have been together 8 years now, and we have 2 little boys, 4 and 2, and then another one on the way due September.

Pat Millea [00:02:55]:
Excellent.

Isaac Wicker [00:02:56]:
So we're in for a lot of change. But, yeah, it's just it's it's been really beautiful.

Pat Millea [00:03:02]:
So That's awesome. Yeah. That's so great. Well, thank you for your faithful husbandhood, fatherhood, and for your good work in the field of mental health as well. Yeah. Yeah. And that's how we got connected initially, obviously. It was just kind of the the growing network of Catholic therapists here in the Twin Cities and beyond.

Pat Millea [00:03:20]:
And it's the kind of thing where the work is not always easy. So it needs really good support and connection with the people who understand what the work is like. Yes.

Isaac Wicker [00:03:29]:
Yes.

Pat Millea [00:03:30]:
And I'm sure every field has that, but mental health especially right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, as you know, every episode we like to do a little bit intro, a little bit of connection with highs and hards. Would you mind starting us off as our welcome guest?

Isaac Wicker [00:03:42]:
Yeah. For sure. I'd say both my high and my hard, they both usually have to do with my children. Related. So, it's just been beautiful weather here, and so that is great. I've got 2 boys who just love being outside. And so I get to spend I'm I'm home with them 2 days a week. And so many days that ends up just being, like, we're outside for many hours at a time Mhmm.

Isaac Wicker [00:04:11]:
Finding worms and toads and climbing trees and things like that and going on a walk in our nature preserve. So that's just, like, such a a a pure, simple beauty of being with them and that kind of harmony and connection. But then it's also very hard sometimes. Basically, whenever we're not outside, it's it's prone to be more difficult. And my 4 year old in particular just seems to be going through something right now, where he is he's just a lot more sensitive. He's he's generally a pretty sensitive guy where, like, he's really deeply affected by things. Mhmm. And so that that can make it hard for him.

Isaac Wicker [00:04:53]:
And when it's hard for him, it's it tends to be hard for us. Like, even this morning, he was sitting on my lap after he just woke up, like, kind of snuggled into me, but he was saying at the same time, like, go away, daddy. Go away. I'm just like, this is you're sending 2 different messages. As you're, like, snuggling up into me, you're like, no, daddy. Go away. So I'm, like, what do I do here? So I'm just stroking his head and telling him he's good. And so yeah.

Pat Millea [00:05:20]:
That's the the perfect metaphor. The kind of development that happens. I've been told at, like, 4 to 6 years old and then kind of like 13 to 16 years old, those like crucial growth periods and independence is that balancing act, especially with teenagers maybe of like, I want I love you and I want connection with you, but I want independence and I need distance from you and, like, holding that tension. That's the most hilarious example of, like, seeing it in front of your face. Well, I relate very dearly to your high and hard because I I am also home 2 days a week. So I really Beautiful. With our little kids. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:05:58]:
We have girls at home right now who aren't in school, not boys. But they are just as active as any of our boys have been. And we started lately, I genuinely lovingly. So James and John are the sons of thunder. I'm convinced our twins are the daughters of thunder. They just they are 0 to 60 all day long and it it never ends. And I keep like many times a day, I'm repeating the mantra to myself. I want strong, powerful girls.

Pat Millea [00:06:25]:
Yes. We desire to be strong, powerful girls. And when you have a bunch of powerful 5 year olds, it's just complicated. Yes. But yeah. But the same with boys too. It's it's a great gift and a great challenge.

Isaac Wicker [00:06:36]:
To, like, recognize at the same time, like, there's something so good and beautiful about this. Like, you have such a strong spirit. I love that in you, and I want to, control that more. Exactly.

Pat Millea [00:06:49]:
Oh, my gosh. That's awesome. Thank you. Thanks for sharing that. I think for me, my my hard is that what day is it? I think so it would have been, like, maybe two and a half weeks ago, I slammed my dumb middle finger in a car door, in our car

Isaac Wicker [00:07:06]:
Oh man.

Pat Millea [00:07:07]:
door. And it was the it was the most annoying parenting situation. I was bringing 2 different kids to baseball practice at different places. They started at the exact same time. I'm coaching the t ball team, but I'm late to drop off the other kid first. I'm just rushing, rushing, rushing, and I go to shut the door directly on my finger, and it hurt so bad.

Isaac Wicker [00:07:27]:
Oh, man.

Pat Millea [00:07:27]:
And if you have been there out there listening, you know what happened. So it just, like, I'm trying not to swear in front of my kids, and I don't know. Like, I'm worried about amputation for about 30 seconds, and I realized that's probably fine. It's not a big deal. But I had to go to urgent care 2 days later because it hurts so bad. It just Oh, man. It is on the mend now. It just looks horrible, and it's ugly.

Pat Millea [00:07:46]:
And, anytime I show someone which finger it is, I feel like I'm making an obscene gesture, but that was really painful and difficult. The sweet part of that, this is not my high, but it's this little side note. As I get back in the car and I've dropped off the kids successfully finally, and now I'm taking the other kid to his practice. I get in the car and he goes, daddy, I prayed for you right after

Isaac Wicker [00:08:09]:
Wow.

Pat Millea [00:08:09]:
You hurt your finger.

Pat Millea [00:08:11]:
And I was just like, I'm still in a lot of pain, but that helped soften the blow a little bit. You know? Like, the prayers of a 6 year old are probably very powerful. So that was very helpful. My high, ironically involves you that last night we got to go be a part of this kind of celebratory dinner. So here in the Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis, they have these retreats for engaged couples preparing for marriage and it helps them to prepare for marriage. So it it's basically a bunch of speakers over about a day and a half and some really beautiful prayer opportunities that are all the speakers are centered around topics that are crucial for a couple to discuss and pray over before they get married. So, fiances come together and they listen to these talks. You've been part of the marriage panel with your wife, Shawna, for years now.

Pat Millea [00:08:59]:
We've done a few different things on that retreat for, like, 11 years or something like that now. So last night we got to just, like, go to the best Mexican restaurant in the Twin Cities and just celebrate the beauty of marriage and being able to be some humble part of the formation that these engaged couples receive and hear about some of the fruits that have come out of these marriage retreats over the years. It was just so many good people in a room and such a great opportunity to really rejoice in what God is doing in in our marriage, but in marriage in general kind of universally. So it was awesome. Anytime I get to have enchiladas and talk about good things, it's very worthwhile. Oh, gosh. Well, I'm excited to talk because, what we're talking about today, I think, is just one of the more, like, universal challenges that a person of faith could possibly experience. This is the kind of thing that every single Catholic, every single Christian feels on some level, and and how they respond to it may vary.

Pat Millea [00:10:04]:
The way that they choose to act because of it might look different from different person to person. But the the universal struggle is the kind of the the tension and the the, at times, even distress that comes from trying to serve God from a place of faith in the midst of a world that opposes our faith very often. Yep. The kind of struggle that Jesus knew intimately that he told us many things about, but living out that challenge is really difficult. So you are someone who has been living that exact walk for years now.

Isaac Wicker [00:10:37]:
Yeah. So

Pat Millea [00:10:38]:
I can't wait to hear your perspective on it because I know you've got kind of a a unique one. Where just to start off, I guess, what in terms of your faith background, you know, how you became the man of God that you are today, what was your sense of faith growing up? How how were you shown ways to kinda interact with the world as you were being raised in your faith?

Isaac Wicker [00:10:59]:
Yeah. Yeah. I had a really beautiful childhood. My parents were both part of the lay movement Communion and Liberation.

Pat Millea [00:11:07]:
Yeah.

Isaac Wicker [00:11:08]:
Which started in Italy, and I came to New York and Minnesota. Those were the first two places in in the US, and my parents were one of the first in Minnesota. So I was born into it. And so that was that was just such a beautiful foundation for me. And then when I grew up I I'm just like I'm generally fairly sensitive, and I like to think about things, and I'm I'm fairly affected by things My sister my older sister would tell me stories that I actually don't remember Like, I would come into a room at night not being able to sleep because I'd be worried about the people, the kids starving in Africa and, like, that like, that was already on my heart at, like, a really young age. It's like these big questions of suffering and friendship and, like, what does this mean? And, so going into middle school, I had I was, like, full of these questions, and nobody was talking about them. I'm like, where, like, does nobody else experience this? So I felt pretty alone in school. Gotcha.

Isaac Wicker [00:12:17]:
But then I there's a part of Communion and Liberation. They have a high school group. It's called GS, and my parents were actually leading that at the time. And so when I was 12, I think I asked to join, because I I sat in on a meeting. I kind of, like, snuck in on a meeting, and they were talking about these big questions. And I was like, woah. There's people talking about this stuff. Like, I I need to be here.

Isaac Wicker [00:12:42]:
Like, I felt so drawn. Again, not, like, explicitly by Jesus at that point, but, like, they have questions that I have, and they're they're actually wrestling with it, and I wanna do that. Mhmm. So I was actually technically too young to join, and I had to, call one of the other adult leaders and ask if I could, which was probably the scariest thing I did as a 12 year old.

Pat Millea [00:13:05]:
It makes me think of Therese requesting from the pope himself to join the Carmel at 14.

Isaac Wicker [00:13:11]:
Yes. Yes. Like, talking on the phone at that point was a scary thing for me, and then talking to an adult. That was, like, a big a big fear, but I did it because I was, like, really drawn.

Pat Millea [00:13:22]:
Yeah.

Isaac Wicker [00:13:25]:
And and so through that, through that experience of this high school group was really formed in this this way of approaching faith that's centered around desire and questions. Like that proposing that Jesus is ultimately the answer to our full desire and our full questions, but you don't have to skip right to Jesus. You can start with the questions and, like, kind of build anticipation. Build the sense of, like, what what am I even asking for when I'm asking for Jesus in the first place? What do I desire? What what are my questions really made for at their heart? And so the this place, like, really formed me in seeing the dignity of the human person within desire and questions. And then through that falling in love with Jesus as the one who, like, responds, as, like, the one who draws my heart there. And so that I I just had just such an amazing formation that way, and I think that is what set me up to be able to to meet other people at that place of desire and questions.

Pat Millea [00:14:40]:
I wanna get back to that that idea of being raised in this beautiful CL community, but Yeah. That question of desire strikes me as something that has probably become really fruitful in your work as a therapist as well. Yep. Yep. And and I like the way you kind of, describe that that that you don't have to jump right to Jesus as the answer. And I think a lot of at times I've seen a lot of really beautiful and really well intentioned efforts at evangelization and catechesis, they can sometimes jump to to Jesus as the answer

Isaac Wicker [00:15:13]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:15:13]:
Instead of helping kind of guide and journey with people through the process of questions and desires. Because and in some sense, I get it because, like, I know Jesus is the answer. Why would I not tell you that right off the bat? You know? But it but it I I feel like it. I've seen situations where when someone is told Jesus is the answer to your desires, at times, they they have felt, like, squashed and kind of, like, pressed down because what they're what they're expressing, these kind of more human, maybe more worldly desires, they're not actually being heard and attended to. You know? What what kind of desires have you heard either in your work in therapy, in conversations with friends? What what are some of the desires that you've seen as kind of stepping points toward Jesus?

Isaac Wicker [00:16:05]:
I mean, basically, anyone can be a starting point. Mhmm. A lot for me, a lot of my own wrestling was the desire for meaning, like, my time to be meaningful, and not to be wasted. And then, like, the desire for love, the desire to be known, the desire to be great, the desire to be seen, the desire for beauty, the desire to hear the truth, to actually, like, know the truth and follow it, and the desire for freedom. All of these different desires that that come up with in the heart, I see them resonate in in people even though they're expressing them often in ways I don't agree with or are actually very destructive. Mhmm. I'm just like that desire there is really good. Like, I wanna meet that desire.

Isaac Wicker [00:16:58]:
And so, like, I actually feel really drawn to people who are expressing big desires even if it's in a, like, a fairly destructive way.

Pat Millea [00:17:07]:
Yeah. I I think that's one of the the grand opportunities for people of faith in this conversation with a fallen world that oftentimes I think it's missed by myself for sure and by others is, when I see someone in life or God forbid on social media that I disagree with some with them really vehemently about a really important thing. So so they have a completely opposite take than I do on abortion or on Yep. The purpose of marriage or what like, a thing that really matters and it really does have weight. My my very human, sometimes prideful inclination is just to, like, seek and destroy. Right? Yep. Like, I I want to dismantle your argument Yep. For the sake of exposing what is true here.

Pat Millea [00:17:56]:
Yep. And I saw I I I think it was Bishop Barron a few months ago, had some kind of, like, maybe a a video or something about the nature of argument. Yeah. And he's such a natural about, you know, using reason in a charitable way anyway. But he was describing exactly what you just kind of walked through is the idea of, when I see someone who I disagree with intensely, what is the truth that I can find in their argument?

Isaac Wicker [00:18:22]:
Yes.

Pat Millea [00:18:23]:
Yes. Because there is always going to be truth. Yes. The the devil in the garden Yes. Had a seed of truth in there. Right? Yep. Because an outright lie is so illogical that it's not even tempting no one would believe something that's opposed to all truth but but if someone who is radically in favor of abortion let's say for the sake of a hot topic if what they're saying somewhere in that argument is I believe women have the right to determine the their their future in this world that is a beautiful truth and I agree with every word of that truth yeah until their freedom might threaten the well-being of another human being. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:19:05]:
Right? So Bishop Barron's approach is very similar to what you're saying. This finding the seed of truth and then saying I agree with you. What I think you're missing is this thing over here. Yeah. So then it becomes this he described as like a dance. Like like, working with that person, partnering with them Yeah. And moving toward the truth together.

Isaac Wicker [00:19:23]:
Yeah. You

Pat Millea [00:19:24]:
know? Yep. That's a beautiful reflection, I think, just in terms of the way to to interact with the world in a really practical way. I mean, if you're listening right now, goodness knows you've had all these conversations sometimes at the worst possible moments, like Thanksgiving dinner or whatever, you know, but but that that kind of movement is really valuable. You now for years have been present and active in secular environments. Right? So coming out of this beautiful Christian community, you've been surrounded by communities that are certainly not explicitly Christian both in in graduate school at Illinois State right?

Isaac Wicker [00:20:02]:
Yep. Illinois State.

Pat Millea [00:20:03]:
And then, in your own clinical practice now as a therapist in a more secular group that does great work but not specifically faith based work. Yeah. How have those same interactions you mentioned that as an adult, I think all of us maybe get a little bit more calcified and a little bit more, kind of wary in terms of interacting with folks who who don't exactly see faith the way we do. What kinds of conversations, what kind of approaches have you had in in more kind of worldly environments now?

Isaac Wicker [00:20:35]:
Yeah. So it's been beautiful. So, yeah, all of my schooling has been in public school. I was homeschooled up until 2nd grade, so I don't know if that counts. But then then the rest of my schooling all the way through graduate school was public schools. I went to the University of Minnesota for my undergraduate. So then going into the working world, so I I did that right after my bachelor's degree. I I worked in what's called ARMS work, where it's in homes mental health skill building.

Isaac Wicker [00:21:06]:
Mhmm. I did that for 3 years, And it was a big question for me going into it. Was this, like, how can I meet these people and not talk about Jesus? Because, like, I'm in a way, like, forbidden to talk about Jesus. Right. Right. And but if Jesus is really the answer to everything that they need, how can I not talk about him? So I wrestled with that for a while, but it became clear just in the living it of, like, I I can still introduce them to Jesus without ever talking about Jesus. Like, Jesus is in everything that I do. It's in every like, it's in the very way that I look at them.

Isaac Wicker [00:21:49]:
Like, he he's saturating that, the words that I say. And so I had so many people that I worked with that were like, some people were just, like, explicitly anti Catholic. We're just, like, they would openly feel free to just bash the Catholic church. They didn't know that I was Catholic.

Pat Millea [00:22:07]:
I was gonna say they didn't really weren't attacking you because of your faith. They just, in general, this is the way they talked.

Isaac Wicker [00:22:13]:
It's because they, like actually, because they felt comfortable with me. They because they felt seen and loved by me, they felt free to just air their grievances about this Catholic church thing or, like, many people who are anti Christian or, like, one person told me if I met God, I'd punch him in the face. You know? Like, and what was an interesting part of that is most people, just because I listen to them and, like, was really attentive to them and caring towards them, almost everybody thought I believed the same thing as them. Each each of my clients with all their different set of beliefs almost universally thought this like, I assumed that I had the same belief system as them. So but, like, I'm just like, you don't even know. Like, you and the feedback I got from people over and over again is, like, I've never never heard anybody talk about people this way. I've never had anybody love me this way. I've never had anybody look at me this way.

Isaac Wicker [00:23:14]:
I've never like, one person was, like, I've been in therapy for 20 years, and now I'm finally starting to understand myself based on what you're saying. You've done more for me in 6 months than the last 10 years of therapy. I've never had anybody, like, see my goodness before. You're the first person who's told me that the way that I am is good over and over again, and I'm thinking these people love Jesus.

Pat Millea [00:23:40]:
Mhmm.

Isaac Wicker [00:23:41]:
These people in an encounter like, in an encounter with his love through me, love Jesus. They just don't know that. They they if if I used any of the lingo of Christianity or Catholicism or talked about Jesus, they would immediately kind of impulsively reject it. Sure. But simply because I'm there with them and seeing them and seeing their goodness and loving them and showing them like the dignity within their person, they love Jesus. It's like so it

Pat Millea [00:24:20]:
Which is thanks to your your your skill and your ability as a caretaker and a therapist, but it's also very much thanks to you the motivation of why you are caring for them that Yeah. It's the love of God in you and you being able to see them with the eyes of God that you can give them a gift that they haven't received in 10 years of therapy before. You know, that maybe no one's ever looked at them as someone with dignity. Someone in made in God's image and likeness. Someone who has an end that's beyond this world, you know, that that bringing them that amazing gift and and showing them their own value. That's an amazing gift.

Isaac Wicker [00:24:58]:
Yep. And I never had to argue with words. I never had to in the end, it became no barrier of just, like, I can't talk about Jesus. That was never, like, actually a problem Mhmm. Because I could just live Yeah. And, like, I could see them and really entrusting and, like, still praying in my heart. Like, maybe someday, they will they will convert. They will know him more.

Isaac Wicker [00:25:25]:
They will know him more explicitly. Mhmm. But never worrying that that that was just never my job.

Pat Millea [00:25:30]:
Mhmm.

Isaac Wicker [00:25:31]:
And so I didn't need to, like, get anxious about an endpoint. I just had to show up and, like, stay with them in a way.

Pat Millea [00:25:41]:
Of just being present to the moment, being present to the person Yeah. And not assuming that you that that your part to play in their salvation, they're their accepting of God's love, that your part specifically is going to be holding their hand as they enter the baptismal font at the church. Right? Yes. You may have a part to play that is the most the the most clear version of pre evangelization possible. Right? That Yeah. That maybe step 1 in their journey is getting to a place where they actually feel like there is love in the world at all.

Isaac Wicker [00:26:17]:
Yes. You know?

Pat Millea [00:26:17]:
And and trusting that God is doing something in them that he knows and you don't. You know? Yeah. That's that's a it's a great gift of humility, first of all, to be able to say, like, this is not about me. It's not about my plans for this person. God's will is bigger than mine, you know, But also being willing to to just, like, radically live in in authenticity with the person that's in front of you.

Isaac Wicker [00:26:41]:
Yeah. And, like, with the with the deep hope of, like, I wanna meet you in eternity, or we're just gonna, like, laugh about all this stuff. Yeah. And it's gonna be amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I there's there's, yeah, so many people where it's, like, I'm carrying them in my heart with the desire that we spend eternal life together. Like, both of us then will know the full truth, and it'll be so great.

Isaac Wicker [00:27:02]:
But, like, I don't need our I don't need to get there. Yeah. Like, the the message that God is love isn't gonna touch somebody who believes deeply that they're unlovable. Sure. But if I can show you even a glimpse that you are lovable, that, like, I know you and I love you, and I, like, I really see your dignity, like, that can open up a place of, like, a place to receive love. Mhmm. And then and then God always uses that.

Pat Millea [00:27:30]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Later on so, you know, starting with this arms work in home therapy, Kenna did that for a few years as well, by the way. Actually, not a few years. I don't know if she had the, the the temperament or the patience for it that you did. So she found out pretty quickly that that was not her place in the mental health world, and it's just it's really hard in some ways. It's so valuable, but it's just it's really hard. You know? And then so then later on, you know, years down the road, you're now in a a more kind of office setting, a clinical therapy setting.

Pat Millea [00:28:09]:
And I I would imagine just based on my kind of third party but not too distant observations of the mental health field

Isaac Wicker [00:28:19]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:28:19]:
That a lot of times the field of mental health care is skeptical or outright hostile to authentic Catholic specifically faith. Yeah. There are many kind of just like accepted tenets of mental health that are absolutely opposed to the reality of the human person. Right?

Isaac Wicker [00:28:44]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:28:44]:
So as a as a Catholic man functioning successfully in that world, how have you been able to to kind of navigate that tension? Yeah.

Isaac Wicker [00:28:56]:
Like, holding it really lightly, honestly. I have yeah. There's the like, the field of psychology right now is in some ways, like, leading the charge that that might destroy people. You know? Like, it's I get very confused about who a person is, and it has a lot of power. So you're you're working with somebody individually where they're very, very vulnerable, or you're at least asking them to be very, very vulnerable. Right. And often in that place of vulnerability is a confused sense of who you are. Like, if you know who you are, there's actually a lot of security.

Isaac Wicker [00:29:40]:
Like, if you know who you are in God's eyes, like, that's most of what you need. But if if you have people, clients coming to therapy confused about who they are, and then you have a clinician who's also confused about what a person is, but they feel confident about their confusion, that that actually can lead to a lot of destruction. Yeah. It can be very painful. So in my work, I've never I've actually I don't think I've ever worked with a client who's had multiple therapists and not had at least one bad experience. Mhmm. Which is I get it really fires me up. As far as my work actually, with my colleagues, like, interacting with them, I've never been too worried about it.

Isaac Wicker [00:30:27]:
Like, I I don't see like, my primary goal at work is my clients, and, like, I invest a lot there. I don't invest a ton in my colleagues. It's just like that yeah. That that seems like a place for a lot of fruitless conversation because I don't have the the actual space, and they're not in a place to actually, like, be encountered very well. Mhmm. Whereas, like, with my clients, the whole point is encounter. Mhmm. And there's, like, a real environment for that.

Isaac Wicker [00:31:00]:
But I I've worked on some creative teams where I've actually more closely engaged with people, and then I just talk about Jesus. And then and then we, like I mean, they I when I started that creative team, they found out, like, in within a couple hours that, like, I'm Catholic, and I'm like, I I care about it. And in that space, I've actually been pretty well received. I I I feel like people I I've been given, like, a a lot of intellectual gifts in a way, so, like, people can respect the way that I talk, the way that I think.

Pat Millea [00:31:36]:
Sure.

Isaac Wicker [00:31:36]:
And then all of a sudden, they're like, wait. You're also Catholic. You're also Christian, and you're not you're not an idiot. Like, woah. What's going on here? So so it actually, like, makes people intrigued that, like, how can I be somebody who's loving and a Catholic? How can I be somebody who's, like, smart and a Catholic? And so in in that way, like, interacting with colleagues, it it's been good. Like, I I've never had anybody, like, straight up try to condemn me.

Pat Millea [00:32:06]:
I'm thinking of, one of the one of the best, funniest, I think the person meant it as a criticism, but it's one of the best compliments I think I've ever received is the the very first per parish that I worked at in youth ministry. There was a parent, an adult in the parish who, you know, probably maybe 6, 8 months into the the ministry time there, they she had gotten a sense of the way that I approach all these different topics and the way that we're kind of forming these high schoolers and middle schoolers in faith, you know. And if I'm convinced that if someone is genuinely teaching the breadth of Catholic truth and the breadth of God's revelation in scripture, catechism, tradition, that it's gonna be simultaneously too conservative and too liberal. Right? That GK Chesterton put it the the way of, like, the Church, the Catholic Church is the only thing that has been criticized for being too much and too little, too hard and too soft. Like he he says it's like a man who's being criticized by being too fat and too skinny at the same time too tall and too short too loud and too quiet you know that, and and what you said to me about 8 months into the parish work after I think maybe a night where we were talking about maybe some kind of like theology of the body or sexuality topic something like that. Her her comment was, I just cannot figure you out. You are like way too odd for me to understand or something like that. And I think I don't know if she meant this criticism or not, but I walked away that night like,

Isaac Wicker [00:33:46]:
yeah.

Pat Millea [00:33:49]:
I am weird for you, Jesus. That's great. Yes. Because it really is like I I love the image of being a part of that creative team and people seeing and be, like, wait. You're not dumb? Wait a second. Hold up. Because it's such a funny like, the world looks at the church and in, you know, in this fallen world that the the the prince of darkness is still very much at work and very has been given dominion over this earth for for the time being. A lot of people look at Christians and Catholics through the caricature that the world has created for Christian and Catholic people right so especially a lot of a lot of political discourse what is being portrayed as the Christian movement is so not Christian but it's been labeled that way very effectively so when someone actually approaches a situation with love with reason with faith with mercy and forgiveness yeah and not giving up truth at any point people look at that like what the heck is this yeah this is like a story got like a weird platypus.

Pat Millea [00:34:49]:
Like you're made of 5 different things. How do you make sense to me? You know? Yeah. I just love that that opportunity to bring the complexity of faith through also just like the simplicity of life. Like it's it's not contrary to the human person to live with all of these different facets and expressions because it's the way that we were made to live in a world that that isn't ordered to our good just inherently.

Isaac Wicker [00:35:20]:
Yeah. Yeah. My favorite is when people, like, give me an opportunity to minimize my faith. They, like, they, like, see all the good qualities about me, and they, like, give me an opportunity to minimize my faith within all of that. So, like, they don't have to condemn me for my faith, but then I'm just like, I'm not gonna take that. Like, no. I'm actually gonna, like, lean into how important this is. And

Pat Millea [00:35:41]:
They're trying to give you an easy way out, and you just don't take it. You stay in the room. Yeah. Yep. I think, what what I really wanna get your perspective on is, what what I see you doing very well and what I think, anyone who's living an authentically Christian life in a fallen world, what what they do really well is avoid these 2 extremes. And I think the one extreme is maybe being so, skeptical and looking kind of a skew at the world so much that there's that temptation to just, like, close in on myself and to surround myself with only Christian people. To just to close in and to to cut off from the world entirely. You know? I and as, you know, as the world continues to to spiral in some ways, there are always goofy conversations with me and my friends of, like, well, who's ready to just start our own little Catholic commune down in Texas, you know? And I also know friends of ours who have literally done that, who have bought property for the express intention of their friends building houses on that property so they can all live together in on a ranch.

Isaac Wicker [00:36:55]:
You know?

Pat Millea [00:36:55]:
So that that's one extreme that some people are called to. On the other extreme, though, you've got folks who and this is more the the direction that I lean into a fault sometimes, who are so comfortable being in the world that I do become of the world sometimes. And that that I am willing at times to make compromises in my faith and to to take the easy way out when someone gives me a way to kind of downplay my faith. Right? So, and especially I think coming out of a beautiful Christian community that you did with your family

Isaac Wicker [00:37:28]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:37:30]:
What what has gotten you to the point of saying, you know what, I don't want to close in on myself. I don't want to surround myself, my family, my children with only Christian people. I do want exposure to the world and and the ways that God's calling me to it. What what's gotten you to the point of kind of living in that that that middle ground that's full of hardship, but also opportunity?

Isaac Wicker [00:37:56]:
A story related to that, of, like, how how I got more to this place. I had a like, my closest friend in high school was an atheist. You're you're seeing a theme. I I I I'm drawn to atheists. I like their questions. He like, we had all sorts of discussions, and we'd go at it in high school. And it was it was great. Like, again, the kind of discussions that actually deepens love, deepens friendship, deep like, it's it's saying it's like signaling to you.

Isaac Wicker [00:38:29]:
I take you seriously, and and I want you to take me seriously here. But when I remember one of our conversations actually after we had graduated, we we met up again the summer, like, the first summer after college or something, and I was talking to him about, like, how my faith has actually deepened and become more secure, and he said, I can tell. And part of the reason he could tell was I was less anxious arguing. Like, I I I felt less need to argue for the faith, And that that's I think a really important important thing to see because some of the times I was arguing for my faith in high school was because I actually was, like, felt like it needed defending. Like, it needed me to defend it. But then the more secure I became in my faith, it doesn't need me to defend it. Like, I don't actually need to fight for it because it fights for itself. Like, it it's it's, like, not in danger.

Isaac Wicker [00:39:40]:
I'm not I'm not protecting something that's fragile from other people saying bad things about it. Mhmm. Like, I'm not it's it's not like a weak little kid that I'm, like, protecting from bullies, and so I need to really fight for it

Pat Millea [00:39:53]:
Yeah.

Isaac Wicker [00:39:53]:
Out of, like, an insecure place.

Pat Millea [00:39:55]:
Yeah.

Isaac Wicker [00:39:55]:
But it's like, no. This is actually the strongest thing, and, like, we can all fight against it if we want, and it's gonna be there. And so I don't need to defend it anxiously. And so being out in the world, anybody can say whatever they want about the Catholic faith and I don't need to defend it anxiously. Like, nothing that they say or do against the Catholic faith will destroy it.

Pat Millea [00:40:24]:
The gates of hell won't prevail against you.

Isaac Wicker [00:40:25]:
Yes. Yeah. And so I I don't need to occupy an anxious place when I'm in the world because whatever it does, it's not gonna win. I know who wins already. And so I like, when I was younger, many times I would operate out of this this anxious place of, like, if I don't defend it and it was probably coming out of my, like, own doubts even. Sure. Just like, oh, I need to, like, reconvince myself by reconvincing this person. Mhmm.

Isaac Wicker [00:40:54]:
But the the deeper I get into my faith in in that security, I'm just like, I don't need to defend it.

Pat Millea [00:41:01]:
One of Kenna's most significant moments in her faith journey was in college. She was in a theology class and had her own very significant doubts and questions about Church teaching on birth control. And she went to her professor, who I think was even just a visiting professor. He was a priest from Africa, I'm pretty sure. And she went to his, like, office hours and was ready to just, like, scorched earth, berate this priest professor on Church teaching on birth control. And, he kind of listened to what she wanted to talk about, and he just sat back in his chair and he said tell me tell me what you think about birth control. Let me let me know what's on your mind about this, you know. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:41:43]:
And they had this beautiful conversation where her shoulders kinda dropped because she was ready for a fight and he wasn't gonna give it to her. Yeah. But he was so secure in what he knew the truth was

Isaac Wicker [00:41:55]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:41:55]:
That she what what she said is when he was willing to have a vulnerable conversation and hear my doubts, my first thought was, oh my gosh. Maybe it's true. Like, because like you said, if if he is coming out of a place of fear, there's that sense of like, well, don't don't actually look behind the curtain Yeah. Because there's nothing back there that's the Wizard of Oz and it's not what I'm telling you it is you know no he had this beautiful confidence of like you can ask whatever questions you want there's no danger of me giving up on the truth or if you seeing something that's that's gonna prove that I'm a fraud. It's just this it was life changing for her. Faith changing for her, you know? And and I I see that I think as a great gift of being formed in this life of community as well that that you, you know, later in life in college, you know, kind of in the the clue process maybe it sounds like getting that greater sense of who I am, but also what I believe So I don't have to approach an adversarial world out of a place of fear and anxiety. I can just rest in who God is and who I am. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:43:09]:
And have authentic loving interactions because of it.

Isaac Wicker [00:43:13]:
Yeah. And, like, I I wanna qualify this in, like, that, in college, I did have my fair share of existential crises. Like, there were times that I doubted. There were times that I was just, like, super confused, and, like, I even tried to reject God, and that lasted 8 hours. Like, like that like but at the end of all of those, like, the faith was still there. And, like, he drew me back in and actually made me stronger and, like, deepened me through all of those processes. And, like, to see my own fragility, to see my own, like, incapacity to maintain faith, to see my own lack of understanding of faith, and and to see, like, but that never has the final word. Like, my own my own ability doesn't have the final word that there is actually a foundation that's totally solid, and that welcomes me back every time.

Isaac Wicker [00:44:10]:
Wasn't like I just, like, built up certainty within myself, but it was just like yeah. I I don't know. Like, by the grace of God, I will continue on this faith journey, but I also know, like, even now my own fragility. And, like, I can have one bad day, and, like, the same old questions will start coming up of, like, does god really love me? Yeah. Like, do I matter? Is this just a joke? You know? Like, that's, like, based on one bad day on my own fragility after years years of, like, God proving his faithfulness. Like, I know how weak I am. Mhmm. But he's so good, and he's so faithful.

Isaac Wicker [00:44:51]:
Yeah. And he's not worried about my weakness. Yeah. I guess another thing.

Pat Millea [00:44:56]:
I love that the the kind of, I mean, the summary that that I'm kind of taking out of this whole conversation is the idea of kind of what you described with the way that your life is is organized now of being in a very intentional community in a home even with another family and and recognizing your need for community that all of us need that kind of community. I mean the the reason that the apostles went out and created churches, communities in these different towns Yep. And not just preaching to individual people is that no one can do this in isolation. And the faith actually doesn't even exist in isolation that the idea of liturgy the idea of prayer the idea of even morality like it requires communion so on one hand we cannot survive without communion and so if you're listening and you genuinely have struggles in finding intentional community in your faith, I would say that's probably mission number 1. And we we will get to the challenge by choice in like 2 minutes, so this is not it. But this is like just a prerequisite for life, I guess. Yeah. If you have a hard time finding communion community in your faith that that is an absolute must for any of us.

Pat Millea [00:46:07]:
None of us can make this journey alone. But on the flip side we do not our faith did not exist just for us and not even just for the community that that all of us are sent out in some capacity and for some of us maybe that's just being sent out to our neighbors or to our co workers for some of us you know in an extreme sense, some people are sent out as literal missionaries and they're sent out around the world. But, but there is always that sense of being sent out of coming back to rest and to be renewed in community, but going out and bringing that kind of good news with the fervor and the passion that you were describing I say yeah that that both and that kind of breathing in breathing out feels like a really natural form of Christianity. And it's just the way that Jesus lived with even his apostles. I mean, they they he would send out the 72, and they went to go preach, and then they came back to him. And they would tell the stories of what happened. And they would go pray in the hills for a while. You know? Just that that in and out is really, really glorious.

Pat Millea [00:47:09]:
I love that. Yeah. That was not the challenge by choice. This is what as as our guest in this conversation, what what's one kind of actionable challenge by choice that you would offer to folks?

Isaac Wicker [00:47:20]:
Can I can I couch it in a story?

Pat Millea [00:47:22]:
Please.

Isaac Wicker [00:47:23]:
Okay. So in college, again, probably doing, like, more one of my more anxious periods. I had all of these friends who were atheists, and I was going through, like, my own, like, somewhat crisis with faith. But I was, like, aiming it towards them. Whereas, like, if I can really prove it to them that God exists, like, force them to force them to see that, like, I need to find, like, a solid truth that they can't can't refute. Like, that actually, like, really derailed me for a while, and I was spiraling in my own head. I was talking to a priest about it. And Basically what he told me is I don't be hyper fixated on converting them, but focus on loving them.

Isaac Wicker [00:48:13]:
Just love who they are now not who they could be or not who they will be. And that that, like, was so good. It it made me it gave me a lot of freedom to just see them without that anxiety we're just talking about, without that anxiety of agenda and So I guess the challenge I would want to throw out there, and I don't know if this is like concrete enough, but if there's somebody really like that that bothers you or bothers, like, kind of rubs against your faith, I guess I'll challenge you to really try to love them. So, like but, like, to see their goodness. I think sometimes we can think of love as, like, I'm gonna paste this on you. Like, I like, I think you're kind of a crummy person, and you really annoy me, but I'm gonna kind of, like, love you here. But to to see their questions, their desire, even if it's disordered and leave it leading to destruction to, like, try to really see a goodness within it. A goodness within their desire.

Isaac Wicker [00:49:25]:
A goodness I got I work with a lot of depressed people, and they they come with questions like, what's the point? Sure. Like, that's actually a really really good question.

Pat Millea [00:49:36]:
That might be the question.

Isaac Wicker [00:49:37]:
Yes. What's the point? And so like, I can love that question, and I can love the fact that you're asking that question and that you're really stuck on that question. It's actually something I can love about you to be like, no. You care. And it's hard for you to even function without having a good answer to that question. What's the point? Mhmm. And, like, that that is the human heart. That's the human heart seeking God and the meaning of life.

Isaac Wicker [00:50:00]:
And so I guess the challenge I'd like to throw out to you is see that. Try to see the goodness of that, the desire or the questions or the the the the specific crazy that's within them, like, what what's the core goodness there? Mhmm. And without trying to evangelize, without trying to change, without trying to do anything, like, to honor that goodness. Does that make sense?

Pat Millea [00:50:25]:
I love that. Yeah. See seeing the person for who they are, like you said, I think at times maybe just culturally and maybe it's just me, but I kind of doubt it. But instead of seeing a person as as, like, one instance of an ideology, right, that that there are all these kind of, like, cultural beliefs out there in the ether, the these ideological movements, many of them are kind of opposed to to what God's doing in the hearts of his people. The avoiding the temptation to look at one individual as just one instance of that ideology and looking at them just as a person, you know, that that in the midst of your your confusion, your doubts, even your objective sinfulness, I know my sinfulness and I know that I on some level am no better than you. So how can I identify the good? How can I love you not for what you might be but for who God made you to be for who you are right now? Yeah. And let that be just my my role in your life. And maybe that'll move down the road, you know, in the months years ahead to genuine conversations about faith and salvation.

Pat Millea [00:51:31]:
Yeah. Maybe it never will. Maybe that's not my role in your journey. But that that willingness to talk to whoever it is, like you said, like my coworker, my parent, my my adult child, my neighbor who has these opinions that totally conflict with my faith. Yeah. How can I see the good in you? How can I love you? And, and be willing to to be the presence of God in your life even if you'll never know it.

Isaac Wicker [00:51:57]:
Yeah. And, like, can I can I throw out an example here, to make it a little clearer? Like even with pornography, somebody practicing pornography. I I've again had the opportunity to talk with many people Yeah. Who've experienced that or who are going through that and often, the desire there is I want to be seen and I want to be respected. Of course, pornography actually can't do any of that for you. Mhmm. But that desire to be seen and respected is so good. And, like, within even all that ugliness that's there within pornography and, like, all the distortion that's there, like, that desire to be seen and respected, that's a good and I can, like, I can draw that out.

Isaac Wicker [00:52:49]:
Even if it's just like a tiny grain of that goodness, I can draw that out and be like, wow. This is really good, and honor that and admire that and love that. And then you start from there to be, like, actually, there's a better way to be seen. There's a better way to be respected. Like, let me show you something. Mhmm. Yeah. Does that make sense?

Pat Millea [00:53:10]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There there is actually something that will fulfill that desire Yes. In a way that this empty thing that you're pouring so much time and energy into this thing has always disappointed you in your search for that desire. I know a thing that will never disappoint Yeah. You know and it takes more effort because it takes more sacrifice and vulnerability but it's the only way to find the answer to that question that you have. Yeah.

Isaac Wicker [00:53:34]:
Yeah. But instead of, like, starting from the place of disgust at the sin Mhmm. I start from a place of reverence for the actual grain of goodness that's there.

Pat Millea [00:53:43]:
Mhmm.

Isaac Wicker [00:53:44]:
And I I delight in that goodness even while, like, the sin is repulsive. You know? So, like, to to be able to occupy and to practice, like, that actually takes a lot of practice to occupy that place of how you see someone. Mhmm. How you see someone and, like, to hunt for the goodness within them and draw it out and show them. Hey. Look. Look. Look what I'm finding here.

Isaac Wicker [00:54:07]:
Yeah. Like, this is good.

Pat Millea [00:54:09]:
Not not beginning with the dwelling on the evil of the sin, which might just exacerbate the shame and the disgust that they already feel about themselves, but to to really dwell on the goodness of the person Yep. That helps them to see themselves as someone who isn't defined by this one particular sin. And maybe at some point doesn't even need that particular sin because they know that they are called to something higher. Yes. Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. I love it. Well, I could talk to you for 3 hours.

Isaac Wicker [00:54:36]:
I know.

Pat Millea [00:54:37]:
I'm sure you've got other stuff to do, but thank you so much, Isaac, for being here. Why don't we close in prayer and send our few people off to live in the world, but not of the world.

Isaac Wicker [00:54:46]:
Praise God.

Pat Millea [00:54:47]:
And, then I'll ask you kind of what's going on in your life down the road. Alright? In the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Heavenly Father, we we praise you, we love you, and we thank you. Thank you for creating us good and for putting your goodness in us as your beloved children. Thank you for surrounding us with, the communities that support our faith and that show us your love. And thank you also, Lord, for calling us out into a world who at times is so distant from you and so in need of our witness. So, Lord, help us to be authentic, joyful witnesses of your love.

Pat Millea [00:55:27]:
Help us to meet people as your beloved sons and daughters and to love them with your heart, to see them with your eyes, and, to point them towards you in any way possible. We ask all this, Jesus, in your holy name. Amen. Amen. Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Isaac, how can people connect with you, keep up with you? What do you have, going on that people might be able to benefit from?

Isaac Wicker [00:55:54]:
Yes. So probably the main thing I've got going on is, I developed this program with Doctor Matt Breuninger. It's called Known embraced by the heart of the Father, and you can look it up at knownbythefather.com. And it's just it's a beautiful online 12 week journey for rediscovering intimacy with God the Father. Often in our hearts, we we have some insecurity. Even if in our theology, in our heads, we know God is good, There there can be a part of us that's afraid, or there's a part of us that's angry, or there's a part of us that's insecure or feels rejected. This can be in particular in relationship with our own fathers. And so there there's there could be, like, deep wounds there, and the Father isn't scandalized by that.

Isaac Wicker [00:56:40]:
Mhmm. But he he wants to meet you there with his gentleness. So this is a really beautiful program that's honest. It starts from a real honest place of, like, if you're angry, start angry. If you're scared, start scared.

Pat Millea [00:56:53]:
Mhmm.

Isaac Wicker [00:56:53]:
But, like, start. Come and and let the Father prove his love to you. Show his love. Show his gentleness. So it it's beautiful. It's knownbythefather.com, and the next cohort starts in January.

Pat Millea [00:57:07]:
Beautiful. Beautiful. That's great. Thank you for that. And I'm gonna put all those links and and, sites and all that in the description below if you're listening and the show notes. And I'll I'll also link up the the great interview that you and Doctor Breuninger did with Matt Fratt on Pints With Aquinas back in the day, as you were kind of working together to develop this program. So, Isaac, thank you so much for for everything you are for your family, for the Church, and, for people who are, more in need of of God's love in their lives.

Isaac Wicker [00:57:34]:
Yeah. Thank you.

Pat Millea [00:57:34]:
And thank you, friends, for listening. Feel free to keep up with us on thiswholelifepodcast.com. You can follow us on Facebook and Instagram @thiswholelifepodcast. Let us know what struck you from this episode. Specifically, now we have the ability with This Whole Life that you can send a text message to us to let us know what's on your mind. So what did you hear from Isaac? What questions would you have about living in a difficult world as a person of faith? We can't wait to hear from you. And until next time, get out there, love people the way God does, and we'll see you next time. God bless you, friends.

Pat Millea [00:58:14]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Isaac Wicker [00:58:35]:
And all 4 years, even as it grew, it was half atheist, half Catholics, with, like, some kind of, like, a confused middle ground in there.