Ep62 Training Kids (and Ourselves) for Technology

"The Christian community is called to help them [parents] in teaching children how to live in a media environment in way consonant with the dignity of the human person and service of the common good.”
~ Pope Francis

Does technology really harm children & teens?
How do I raise my children in a world steeped in tech & social media?
Is it even worth the fight to resist the culture when it comes to technology?

This is an important one, friends! In Episode 62, Pat and Kenna delve into the complexities of technology's impact on children, families, and parents. They discuss the critical role of guiding children towards responsible tech use, while resisting the cultural push for children using devices & social media at a young age. Exploring the emotional strain parents face when limiting tech access, they emphasize the empowerment found in community support. The episode also highlights the importance of fostering real-world engagement & joy. The couple shares personal insights on managing children's screen time, advocating for setting boundaries to promote healthier interactions.

If you've ever faced difficult conversations or decisions about technology with your children, this episode is for you!

Episode 62 Show Notes

Chapters:
0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
17:50: Approach to technology & some statistics
27:37: Feeling a lack of agency
33:59: Proposing a vision for kids' tech use
40:52: Concrete actions & conversations around technology
50:17: The need for community among parents
58:09: Challenge By Choice

Reflection Questions: 

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. What difficulties have you faced around technology & social media in your own life? In your children's lives?
3. What does healthy tech use look like to you? What are your values around technology?
4. What are technology & social media good for? What are the dangers of technology? How can you help your children enjoy the good and avoid the dangers?
5. When you listen to the Holy Spirit, how are you being called to lead your family with regards to technology?

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

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Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 17:50 Approach to technology & some statistics
• 27:37 Feeling a lack of agency
• 33:59 Proposing a vision for kids' tech use
• 40:52 Concrete actions & conversations around technology
• 50:17 The need for community among parents
• 58:09 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Pat Millea [00:00:00]:
What's so tricky about technology is it's a tool that really feels like a toy.

Kenna Millea [00:00:04]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:00:05]:
Right? That

Kenna Millea [00:00:05]:
draws you in like a toy.

Pat Millea [00:00:06]:
Right. Yeah. It is made to function like a toy.

Kenna Millea [00:00:15]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Milay, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm with my husband, Pat Milay, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader. We invite you to our kitchen table. Okay. Not literally, but but you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes. We're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes. It is not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care. So let's get talking about this whole life.

Kenna Millea [00:01:06]:
Welcome back to This Whole Life. It is wonderful to be with you, to be with you listeners, to be with you my love.

Pat Millea [00:01:14]:
Wunderbar.

Kenna Millea [00:01:15]:
Wunderbar. Thank you so much for choosing to spend time with us and to receive what we would love to offer you, this episode on technology and our children. Oh. Pat's been stewing and brewing on this for a while. We were like, we don't get much hate mail. Maybe after this episode. We're just kidding.

Pat Millea [00:01:35]:
We're angling for anger. We're just

Kenna Millea [00:01:38]:
you know, everyone's got opinions. Everyone's got thoughts. You're gonna hear ours today.

Pat Millea [00:01:41]:
Everyone does have opinions and thoughts.

Kenna Millea [00:01:43]:
You get to share yours back with us.

Pat Millea [00:01:46]:
Goodness. Well, so my my thought process in, kind of getting into this idea of technology was to get I I have a pretty good idea of where you stand in terms of your your your lifelong relationship with technology. K? Sure. Or maybe lack thereof.

Kenna Millea [00:02:05]:
Given that I can't find my phone half of my life.

Pat Millea [00:02:07]:
Given that you still don't know the difference between a reel and a story and a post

Kenna Millea [00:02:09]:
Anyways.

Pat Millea [00:02:11]:
So here is here's my curiosity. I'm gonna throw out a random technological item. Okay. And I'm gonna start

Pat Millea [00:02:19]:
pretty long ago. Okay? And I want you to tell me if you or your family had this thing Okay. And if you have any specific memories about when you got the first one, what that was like for your family.

Kenna Millea [00:02:30]:
Okay.

Pat Millea [00:02:30]:
K? Okay. Okay. Step 1, a VCR.

Kenna Millea [00:02:34]:
Oh, heck yeah. Absolutely. I don't I don't remember not having a VCR. You don't? Had a VCR all the way through grad school. The first time.

Pat Millea [00:02:41]:
You did.

Kenna Millea [00:02:41]:
1st time grad school. Did. Yep. Sure did. And a lot of Julia Roberts movies on VHS.

Pat Millea [00:02:47]:
So Did you do the classic millennial thing from our generation of taping shows off of TV when you were a kid?

Kenna Millea [00:02:54]:
I did not.

Pat Millea [00:02:55]:
Or movies when they were on?

Kenna Millea [00:02:57]:
Well, okay. I don't think so.

Pat Millea [00:03:00]:
Seriously?

Kenna Millea [00:03:00]:
I don't think so. No. No. I was quite happy to just watch whatever was on. I mean, this was in the day of, like, Nick at night and, like, legit Nickelodeon, and that's just, like, all I wanted

Pat Millea [00:03:10]:
to do. A movie, you just had you had purchased movies?

Kenna Millea [00:03:14]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. I

Pat Millea [00:03:17]:
Well, well, well. Somebody did well for themselves.

Kenna Millea [00:03:19]:
I think you underestimate how, content I was to watch the same things over and over and over again. So yeah.

Pat Millea [00:03:26]:
Dude, we had shelves and shelves of recorded movies and TV shows off the TV. Yeah. Wow.

Kenna Millea [00:03:32]:
You pirates you.

Pat Millea [00:03:33]:
You'd write you'd write on the little white part on the Yeah. And, you know, and then if you taped over it, all of a sudden, the description was totally wrong.

Kenna Millea [00:03:39]:
Right.

Pat Millea [00:03:39]:
And you'd put in one movie and get, like, a

Kenna Millea [00:03:42]:
Your brother's basketball game. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:03:46]:
Next up, not a VCR, but a video camera.

Kenna Millea [00:03:49]:
No. We never own like, were you actually put a VHS in it?

Pat Millea [00:03:53]:
Yeah. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:03:54]:
Yeah. No. No. Seriously? No. That was for, like, the news station. No. Those honking those honking them.

Pat Millea [00:03:59]:
I have a specific memory of us getting the news station type of camera. My my I was living in Springfield, Illinois when I was, like, I don't know, 8 years old or something like that. My dad came home with the ridiculous on the shoulder video camera with the eyepiece that you would record, like, ballet recitals and stuff with. It was so obnoxious.

Kenna Millea [00:04:19]:
It

Pat Millea [00:04:19]:
was hilarious that our phones now have taken the place of that thing.

Kenna Millea [00:04:23]:
That is a that is a commitment.

Pat Millea [00:04:24]:
It was a commitment.

Kenna Millea [00:04:25]:
Yes. To moving images. Yes. That's right.

Pat Millea [00:04:27]:
But now we have family videos that we can all laugh at each other over.

Kenna Millea [00:04:30]:
You do. It's very sweet.

Pat Millea [00:04:32]:
How about, did you have a Game Boy?

Kenna Millea [00:04:37]:
No. No. Never? See. Okay. I'm the oldest by 6 years, and then there were 2 more girls. My brother is 14 years younger than me. K. So we had I don't know if I'm spoiling your next one, but we had a Super NES that was the one and only that we had until my brother was like a teenager and I was long gone.

Kenna Millea [00:04:54]:
Right? Yep. Yep. He was 4 when I left the house. So, no. We were not that interested in video games. Definitely not handheld, that I can recall.

Pat Millea [00:05:02]:
Wow.

Kenna Millea [00:05:02]:
I know. How old were you when you got your Game Boy?

Pat Millea [00:05:04]:
That's remarkable. I never had a Game Boy ever.

Kenna Millea [00:05:06]:
You had a was Sega Game Gear?

Pat Millea [00:05:07]:
I had a Game Gear.

Kenna Millea [00:05:08]:
Game Gear.

Pat Millea [00:05:09]:
That's

Kenna Millea [00:05:09]:
right. Yes. It was color. You were Team Sonic?

Pat Millea [00:05:12]:
It was horizontally Yeah. Yeah. Instead of vertically oriented. It was it was pretty sweet. I was not cool enough to have a Game Boy when it first came out. And by the time I got on board, or should I say my parents allowed me to be on board the video game train, it was Game Gear all the way.

Kenna Millea [00:05:26]:
Okay. How old were you when you got it?

Pat Millea [00:05:28]:
Mid 90. Let's say

Kenna Millea [00:05:30]:
Like early teen?

Pat Millea [00:05:31]:
Yeah. 14, 15, maybe early high school, something like that, I'm gonna say. Maybe 8th grade at the earliest. I'm not sure.

Kenna Millea [00:05:38]:
I think we got our Super NES in 8th grade, 8th grade Christmas.

Pat Millea [00:05:41]:
Only because I already know the answer to this question.

Kenna Millea [00:05:43]:
I knew you were gonna troll me with this.

Pat Millea [00:05:45]:
Did you have a pager? A pager. Yes. I had a pager.

Kenna Millea [00:05:50]:
You think this is so entertaining, but the thing is this was normal where I grew up.

Pat Millea [00:05:55]:
Yeah. For doctors and drug dealers. It sure was. You're right.

Kenna Millea [00:05:58]:
And also, like, 7th graders in the Greater Orlando area. Like, I can distinctly remember when my friend Tiffany got a teal with, like, sparkles pager. We were like, that's so amazing. And mine was just, like, ugly it looked like a doctor's pager. It was, like, black with an orange, like, silence button. Yeah. That was about it. And then we would, like, learn all the different messages you can send to each other if you turn the pager upside down with it, like like, 143, but then, like, hello.

Pat Millea [00:06:24]:
Oh, yeah. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:06:24]:
Which is, like, what is that? 43770.

Pat Millea [00:06:28]:
We did that with calculators in the great state of Iowa. Yes. Some of those messages were

Kenna Millea [00:06:32]:
Well, I get that y'all didn't have satellites above you in Iowa.

Pat Millea [00:06:36]:
This is one of the great cultural differences between Florida and Iowa. Apparently, I knew one human being with a pager.

Kenna Millea [00:06:41]:
It was your dad?

Pat Millea [00:06:42]:
It was my surgeon father. Correct. Apparently, you needed to be called to the ER like he did. I'm not sure. Did you or a family member ever had a car phone that was attached to your car?

Kenna Millea [00:06:54]:
You know what? I think my grandpa did. I think my grandpa did. Mhmm. When we would come visit up here in Minnesota, I can remember, I think, yeah, the very Zach Morris looking with the actual cord Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:07:05]:
Totally.

Kenna Millea [00:07:05]:
Like, connected. Yeah. But I don't think our our family went straight to cell phones. Pagers and then the cell phones. Again, oh.

Pat Millea [00:07:15]:
We for sure had a car phone.

Kenna Millea [00:07:16]:
Did you? Did you use it?

Pat Millea [00:07:18]:
Minivan. Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But it did have the cord, which is hilarious. Like, it had a speakerphone function, thanks be to God, or else we all would have died.

Pat Millea [00:07:25]:
But why did it have a cord? Like, were you gonna hold it to your ear?

Kenna Millea [00:07:29]:
Like Yeah. I think you were. Crazy person. Maybe, like, in the original design, they were, like, do not use this while the car is, like, while the motor vehicle is being operated. You know, like, they envision you, like, pulling off.

Pat Millea [00:07:38]:
In a McDonald's parking lot making a phone call.

Kenna Millea [00:07:41]:
Exactly. I don't remember my goodness. Maybe that's what they had in mind.

Pat Millea [00:07:44]:
This is a bit off the board. How about a laserdisc player?

Kenna Millea [00:07:47]:
No. But I do remember my neighbor, Candace, my neighbor Candace had a laserdisc player and all I remember is that her brother was obsessed the Terminator. He was, like, 3. And whenever we babysat, that's all we would watch. And, like, the end of the Terminator, like, the scary part, that's, like, all he wanted to watch. And that is my only experience with the laserdisc.

Pat Millea [00:08:06]:
Sure he's in really good shape today.

Kenna Millea [00:08:08]:
That's that's all I got.

Pat Millea [00:08:09]:
I hope he's doing well.

Kenna Millea [00:08:11]:
You all? Did you have a laserdisc?

Pat Millea [00:08:12]:
We watched 1 laserdisc in the school one time, and that's the only time I remember seeing it. It was such a ridiculous machine. The size of a vinyl album, but in But way more fragile and Yeah. Exactly. Yes. What about, Walkman or Discman?

Kenna Millea [00:08:29]:
Oh, my gosh.

Pat Millea [00:08:29]:
Either or both.

Kenna Millea [00:08:30]:
Obsessed. Definitely had a Walkman. Definitely a Discman. Okay. When my parent whenever I would do anything naughty, my parents, the way they would punish me was take away my boombox or take away my Discman or Walkman. I had a pink boom box that we would blast in the bathroom. My mom had to put a nail polish mark. I hope she's listening to this and remembering this.

Kenna Millea [00:08:49]:
She had to put a nail polish mark of, like, on the volume dial of how loud we could let it be because I would, like, rock out to some Amy Grant and Mariah Carey, like, at obscene hours and wake up the whole household. But, yeah, no. Definitely, if, if they wanted to punish me just with that disc man and yep.

Pat Millea [00:09:07]:
Is that where our daughter gets it?

Kenna Millea [00:09:08]:
Yeah. That's so great. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:09:09]:
Yeah. She also loves her music. You? Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. Both. Both? Loved them both. Yep.

Pat Millea [00:09:16]:
I have very solid memories of Discman years in high school of just, like, almost burning out CDs.

Kenna Millea [00:09:23]:
Oh, yeah.

Pat Millea [00:09:23]:
To the point of being used

Kenna Millea [00:09:24]:
Falling to asleep to them. I mean, the batteries you have to keep.

Pat Millea [00:09:27]:
Oh, yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:09:27]:
We would I was a batteries.

Pat Millea [00:09:29]:
That's right.

Kenna Millea [00:09:30]:
I was a rower, and we would take these, you know, these long trips on buses, like, 8 hours overnight on a bus.

Pat Millea [00:09:35]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:09:36]:
And just how many packs of batteries I would plow through in a weekend listening to the Dixie Chicks, like sleeping on the floor of a coach bus, going to head of the hooch in Georgia or whatever I was doing.

Pat Millea [00:09:46]:
So then how about a a real any iteration, honest to goodness, iPod?

Kenna Millea [00:09:54]:
It would have been when we were married. I'll be honest. I am so tech defunct and have zero interest in learning that if I weren't married to, I don't know that I have an iPhone. Like, I am so not interested

Pat Millea [00:10:06]:
in Technology development did cap out at about age 25.

Kenna Millea [00:10:10]:
So so I think the idea of an iPod is I was like, wow. That's not like and then you have to have a compute. I don't know. I don't know if I can do this, guys. So, no, I've never had an iPod to my memory.

Pat Millea [00:10:18]:
Never ever?

Kenna Millea [00:10:19]:
I don't think so. We maybe had an iPod touch. Wasn't that like the little little bitty? What's the tiny

Pat Millea [00:10:24]:
That's the, you're thinking of the iPod shuffle.

Kenna Millea [00:10:26]:
Shuffle. Okay. Maybe I had

Pat Millea [00:10:28]:
That's what I had. And you probably used mine.

Kenna Millea [00:10:30]:
Maybe I used yours. Yeah. But no. I have no interest.

Pat Millea [00:10:32]:
No screen even.

Kenna Millea [00:10:33]:
Yeah. Just the forward back button.

Pat Millea [00:10:35]:
And then you, yeah. Right. You just would shuffle through whatever MP3s you put on there.

Kenna Millea [00:10:39]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:10:39]:
It was great for running. Cause it was like, literally the size of a quarter.

Kenna Millea [00:10:42]:
Right. Yeah. It was great. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:10:44]:
It was great. It was fun.

Kenna Millea [00:10:46]:
Probably used yours. Okay.

Pat Millea [00:10:47]:
How about a flip phone?

Kenna Millea [00:10:49]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah, For sure.

Pat Millea [00:10:50]:
When did you get a flip phone?

Kenna Millea [00:10:52]:
Well, okay. So truth be told, I remember my very first phone. I was probably 15 and it was actually a flat phone. It was like like a it looked like a remote control. It was blue and sparkly. Oh, my goodness. And then after that, I got a flip phone.

Pat Millea [00:11:06]:
Wow.

Kenna Millea [00:11:06]:
So I don't know, like 17 That is. Maybe That is.

Pat Millea [00:11:08]:
A flip phone. Yep. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:11:10]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Et tu?

Pat Millea [00:11:11]:
Yeah. I had a flip phone. I have very specific memories. I hated the idea of cell phones when they came out in college. I hated the fact that

Kenna Millea [00:11:21]:
They didn't come out in college. You got one in college. But

Pat Millea [00:11:23]:
Well, I hated

Kenna Millea [00:11:24]:
You saw people using them in college.

Pat Millea [00:11:26]:
No. I hated they came out before that. But in terms of, like, cultural adoption Yeah. When, like, most people were getting cell phones, it was when you and I were in college, early 2000s. And people walking around on campus that I could hear their side of the conversation.

Kenna Millea [00:11:39]:
Okay. You have a snarky look on your face. Your wife was one of those people, so just stop.

Pat Millea [00:11:43]:
I just can't tell you how weird that was for me. I I am that guy now, but

Kenna Millea [00:11:46]:
at the beginning I'm glad you think it's that's healthy.

Pat Millea [00:11:48]:
It was it was just like it was like odd and off putting. I hated what the cell phone stood for. I have since apparently become a hypocrite, but I didn't get a cell phone until 2004 after graduation from college. And I, like, spitefully told the guy at Verizon, I want a phone that can make and receive phone calls.

Kenna Millea [00:12:06]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:12:07]:
I don't want a camera. I don't want any stupid apps. I don't want none of this stuff. And then whatever. The the wheels came off a little bit later on probably. But 2004.

Kenna Millea [00:12:15]:
2004. Mhmm. Okay.

Pat Millea [00:12:16]:
And then your first smartphone. Do you remember?

Kenna Millea [00:12:19]:
Yes. We were just talking about this the other day. I'm gonna go with I think it was after our second was born. So, like, 2013, I'm gonna say.

Pat Millea [00:12:27]:
Okay. Gotcha.

Kenna Millea [00:12:28]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:12:28]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:12:29]:
And I think you were, like, 2010.

Pat Millea [00:12:31]:
Only shortly before that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Little before that.

Kenna Millea [00:12:34]:
Does that make you feel better to say that?

Pat Millea [00:12:35]:
I lapped you. Yes. I'll I was I was slacking in the pager realm, but I made

Kenna Millea [00:12:40]:
up for a smartphone. Get off my pager. What? Oh, we haven't done highs and hards yet.

Pat Millea [00:12:45]:
Well, that was fun. Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:12:46]:
We should

Pat Millea [00:12:46]:
probably do that.

Kenna Millea [00:12:47]:
Yeah. Let's do that. Okay. High and hard, babe.

Pat Millea [00:12:49]:
Okay. Goodness. So, I mean, the high is simple enough. We just, have gotten off a couple months of, like, all kinds of traveling and great speaking opportunities, meeting just amazing folks who are doing great work out there in the world and getting to support the good stuff that they're doing. But one of our travels took us to Anchorage, Alaska in October, which is totally off the board for us. I never really I I had a lot of dreams to go to Alaska. I had no real plans to go to Alaska. So, the good folks up there, Kate and Kevin and and all the folks, had us come speak at one of the high schools and parishes up there.

Pat Millea [00:13:28]:
And, man, the people who live in Alaska freaking love Alaska. And I totally get it. I I will never move there. But I get if you are designed a certain way, and if you see the world in a certain way, that is the place for you. The beauty, the wildlife, the kind of like the like communal bonding that you get from living in a place that's pretty harsh for 6, 7 months out of the year. You know? It just it was so beautiful, so stunning. The people were even better than the surroundings. It was just really great.

Pat Millea [00:14:02]:
So what a what a blessing to be there and to be there with you.

Kenna Millea [00:14:04]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:14:05]:
Being there alone would have been really annoying, but being there not really annoying. It would have been less exciting. But being there with you is really beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. So that was my high, Alaska. The hard lately has been, reconfronting some of my, anger issues that have surfaced as a parent, as a father. That's been so, like, an ongoing understanding, ongoing self confrontation that I've had to go through for many, many years now.

Pat Millea [00:14:35]:
And, just recently have had it come to the forefront again. So just realizing that apparently that battle is not done yet, and it likely will never be. But just figuring out how to how to communicate mostly with our kids in a way that is healthy and and level appropriate discipline to them like a parent needs to and not acting out of rage and just, like, shouting down our kids when they're doing things that I don't like. So dealing with my own weaknesses in that area is is always hard.

Kenna Millea [00:15:08]:
Yes. Yeah. Yes. Tell me what you figure out. Okay?

Pat Millea [00:15:10]:
Yeah. We'll do it. Yep. And you?

Kenna Millea [00:15:13]:
So I would say my hard lately, is we're not quite out of the woods of little people with just perpetual runny noses and coughs and what have you. And I realized last night as I looked at the clock and was, like, we have been doing bedtime routine with the youngest 5 for, like, an hour and 7 minutes. And and just like the extras that are added on when they're sick. Right? You gotta you gotta suction the noses. You gotta rub the vapor rub. You gotta fill up the diffusers with eucalyptus. You've got to, you know, just allay all their fears about what it's gonna be like to cough and no you can't sleep with a cough drop. And you just, like, it it it's just so much more.

Kenna Millea [00:15:53]:
And they're just feeling rundown, and so they need more snuggles. And Yep. I'm just feeling rundown. And I'd also like them to stop coughing in my face. But, we're working on that.

Pat Millea [00:16:03]:
So asking too much, babe.

Kenna Millea [00:16:04]:
I'm so sorry. So that's my that's my seasonal hard.

Pat Millea [00:16:09]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:16:09]:
And I'll try not to bring that up too many times on this podcast. Okay. My high is that this past weekend, I did an intensive trauma training. There's a new modality that I'm learning called EMDR, which has been around for a long time. It's significantly research backed and based and proven to be, effective for trauma. But the high was being in this class and just talking about our brain and, like, cannot help but be overwhelmed by God's creative design. Because one of the premises premises of this trauma modality is that the brain seeks healing. And, like, that is just such good news.

Kenna Millea [00:16:52]:
Right? Like, okay. Then we use therapy. We use, you know, other means to help facilitate that healing. But, like, this idea of, like, yeah. Like, we reach for thriving. Like, we are made to pursue fullness of life and flourishing. And I wish it had been a setting and an organization where I could have spoken about that in more explicit faith terms. But just to know it for myself and to reconfirm it for myself and to come back into the office with, like, more zeal of, like, I wanna cooperate with God's natural design for us, was pretty amazing.

Kenna Millea [00:17:25]:
So

Pat Millea [00:17:25]:
That's pretty sweet. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:17:26]:
That is my high.

Pat Millea [00:17:27]:
Glad you got to do that. And you had some really significant reflections that came out of that too, both for work and for you personally.

Kenna Millea [00:17:33]:
I did.

Pat Millea [00:17:34]:
It was really beautiful. That was great.

Kenna Millea [00:17:35]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:17:35]:
Thanks for that.

Kenna Millea [00:17:36]:
Yeah. Well, Yes.

Pat Millea [00:17:38]:
Are you ready

Kenna Millea [00:17:38]:
to say that?

Pat Millea [00:17:39]:
Where are

Kenna Millea [00:17:39]:
we going? You're gonna teach me. You are you are the master here.

Pat Millea [00:17:42]:
To annoy some people?

Kenna Millea [00:17:44]:
I'm I'm I'm ready to help equip.

Pat Millea [00:17:46]:
Including maybe each of us. Yeah. Totally. I get it. I get it. No. It it so today, what we're gonna talk about is, just an initial kind of primer around some of the mental health, and I would say even spiritual health implications of technology use among kids and adolescents, and maybe in particular social media within the realm of technology. So technology could mean anything from a a laptop in your family's kitchen all the way down to your phone, your iPad, a a a device that your school gives you even to use for allegedly homework, although you and I both know 17 year olds.

Pat Millea [00:18:23]:
You don't really use it for that. So the the way that technology impacts our kids and our teens, and I think really genuinely the first place to start is just to acknowledge that, you and I kinda and if you're listening right now, parents in the world, we have to be ready to be open to this kind of a conversation. I am always shocked. This happened actually in Alaska when we were there. I am always shocked and maybe not too surprised, I guess, at people's willingness to immediately run to the defense of technology and social media the moment it's challenged. And I think there are a lot of reasons for that. I think part of it maybe is is this human inclination to be like, well, I I just want you to tell me that I'm okay. Like, I like this stuff.

Pat Millea [00:19:09]:
I don't wanna give it up. So I wanna be reassured that it's actually not that bad.

Kenna Millea [00:19:13]:
Well and so maybe that's a good place to clarify here. Like, is that where you're going with this? Or, you know, are you trying to lead us all to stone tablets and chisels? Like like, is is that what you are hoping could happen?

Pat Millea [00:19:28]:
Are you trying to, steal my thunder for the end of the episode? Well

Kenna Millea [00:19:32]:
okay. No.

Pat Millea [00:19:33]:
That's that's it's a really good starting place. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:19:35]:
I don't I don't want people to turn off because they're thinking, like, oh my gosh. He's gonna propose some archaic way of being.

Pat Millea [00:19:41]:
What I'm joking about. No. That is not the that is not what I think is the final answer. The people who have done way more research on this than me, that is not their final answer either. It's not to eliminate technology from the lives of our kids at all. So we're not going there. But it does probably take a little bit of good healthy humility and openness to just be be ready to listen, be ready to hear what the Lord is saying to me, first of all, in in this very worldly area, and what my kids need from me in terms of technology and training them to encounter a world that is never gonna go back to stone tablets or even big, one foot deep TVs.

Pat Millea [00:20:20]:
Right? And we're not going backwards in terms of technology. So how do we equip our children to live and function in a world where they can be healthy and holy and happy around the technology that they're using? Right? And one of the main reasons that it's valuable to be open and and humble about this is that the ties between technology and social media use and mental health, their effects on mental health, especially for children and adolescents is pretty much undeniable at this point.

Kenna Millea [00:20:48]:
The connections are clear.

Pat Millea [00:20:50]:
Right. I think early on in terms of tech use, and especially when we say technology, most of us now mean something in the direction of smartphones, tablets, things like that.

Kenna Millea [00:20:59]:
Device.

Pat Millea [00:21:00]:
A handheld device, some kind of screen like that that's Internet connected. That started to really pick up, not necessarily right in 2007 where the iPhone came out for the first time, but in the early 2010s when you started having massive adoption of smartphones among adolescents, you started having social media platforms that weren't just social networking. Like, hey, let's connect with a high school classmate I haven't talked to in 20 years. Yeah. But social media, like, I'm sharing posts. I'm creating content. Yeah. I'm liking.

Pat Millea [00:21:31]:
I'm retweeting. I'm commenting. I'm sharing. I'm direct messaging. I am I am living now in a in a tech universe where every post is measurable. It's consumable that the account and maybe even the person behind the account becomes a product, not just a person. We would call those people maybe influencers now in the early 2020s. So those that kind of a world has had significant measurable effects on the mental health of our kids.

Pat Millea [00:21:59]:
And a lot of the stuff that we'll pull from in this episode is in the great research of people like Jean Twenge who wrote a book called iGen, about the effect of technology on on the current kind of youth generation. Jonathan Haidt, H A I D T, not the other kind of hate. He wrote a book called The Anxious Generation about the way that social media and technology have created or at least been a major contributor to the current mental health crisis of teens and and young adults. And and the stats, like I said, are undeniable. I'm gonna throw a few out here. I'll put them in the show notes as well with maybe some graphs and things that are helpful. A lot of the stats have to do with Gen z, which right now in 2020 would be people who are between the ages

Kenna Millea [00:22:43]:
We're in 2024 babes.

Pat Millea [00:22:44]:
What did I say? 2020.

Kenna Millea [00:22:46]:
But that was fun.

Pat Millea [00:22:47]:
Which right now in in right now in 2024 would be people between the ages of 18 and 27, roughly. People in that age range currently spend an average of 5 hours a day on social media. Not technology.

Kenna Millea [00:23:02]:
Right. Not FaceTiming their friends.

Pat Millea [00:23:03]:
Specifically. Not texting people. On social media.

Kenna Millea [00:23:06]:
So we're talking, like, social media platforms.

Pat Millea [00:23:08]:
Correct. Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, Snapchat, 5 hours a day on average. And 23% of Gen z spends 7 hours or more a day on social media. So the amount of social media that they're consuming and living in, kind of surrounded by, is significant. 46% of adolescents have said lately that social media made them feel worse about their bodies, which again I I don't think is surprising anecdotally to many of us that especially on a platform like Instagram maybe, where we're living in a world of filters and, very specifically curated content that's just not real. There's no other way to say it. Just not real. And then you introduce some of the AI things that are coming up now in terms of images and videos, comparing our real lives, our real bodies to this false presentation of humanity.

Pat Millea [00:24:02]:
We can never compete with that. Right? Major depression has gone up since 2010 significantly. So this is that kind of turning point of when all the social media technology started to really hit home for folks. For for girls and Gen z, it's up 145%, and for boys, it's up a 161%. Woah. So again, in 2024, that's in 14 years that it's more than doubled. I this is so interesting to me. Almost half of Gen z, so again that 18 to 24 range, wishes that certain social media platforms didn't exist at all.

Kenna Millea [00:24:37]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:24:38]:
So literally half of them, 50% say Twitter, x, whatever you wanna call it now, they hope they wish that never existed. TikTok, almost 40% 47%. So almost half. And TikTok is one of the most used apps among 18 to 27 year olds. And the people who use it most are saying I wish it didn't exist. Mhmm. And what's I what I think is so fascinating about that is what what they didn't say is I I want to stop using it. What they said is I wish it never existed in the first place which maybe means a few things.

Pat Millea [00:25:10]:
Maybe they're identifying the way that it's harmful not just to them individually, but to society at large. Mhmm. But maybe it's this part and I think this shows up in other research as well. Maybe it's this feeling that, like, if it exists, I have to use it.

Kenna Millea [00:25:23]:
Right. I feel compelled. I don't feel like I have agency.

Pat Millea [00:25:26]:
I have no freedom to be off of it because it's either I have I use TikTok and Snapchat and Instagram and have friends, or I don't use those platforms and I am a social pariah.

Kenna Millea [00:25:37]:
Yeah. I'm isolated and I'm cut off.

Pat Millea [00:25:39]:
I have no connection anymore. I don't connect in this way.

Kenna Millea [00:25:42]:
So sad.

Pat Millea [00:25:43]:
Right. Right. And the final one is, that that every segment, every, kind of gender and and different background breakdown of 18 to 27 year olds, out of all those segments, at least 30% of every single segment says that social media has had a negative impact on their emotional health. So at least 30% or more of 18 to 27 year olds say that it hurts their emotional health. And the way that Jonathan Haidt specifically puts that is if if there was a product in the world that actively harmed more than 1 out of 10 teenagers that used it or young adults that used it, it actively hurt hurt them. There would be congressional legislation to ban that product. Right? But for whatever reason,

Kenna Millea [00:26:30]:
we we as a culture

Pat Millea [00:26:31]:
have become comfortable giving social media a pass. And not even legislative bans. I don't know that a lot of people are angling for that, and I'm not either. But not even asking questions, like, is this helpful or harmful? Are there ways that we need to control the access that preteens and teenagers and young adults have to certain apps like this? So it's a long way of saying that there is a problem going on culturally, mental health, spiritual health, I think as well for our young people. I think for many of us as parents, anecdotally, we see it. Yeah. I think of parents all the time that I talk to who complain about their kids just hiding behind a screen all day long. And they they they feel like they lost their kid when they got him a smartphone.

Pat Millea [00:27:16]:
You know? They they they don't talk on family trips. They don't talk at the dinner table. They don't really even see their friends in real life anymore. They're just interacting through a screen mediated by these apps and things. I I think a lot of us, not all of us, but a lot of us feel the kind of anecdotal weight of that.

Kenna Millea [00:27:35]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. Absolutely. And I think about, you know, mainly in my office, I'm working with the parents who also, I think, are are saying I don't have agency in this, are feeling like it's out of control, like it's bigger than them. I know that I was speaking with someone recently who the media was the issue. Right? What what the what the child the teen was coming in for was related to the issue. And the parent said, but my child is so fragile that I'm worried that taking it away, even though I know this is the problem, I'm actually worried that taking away will exacerbate the problem.

Kenna Millea [00:28:11]:
And so just feeling like their hands are tied. And I'm like, what a terrible position to be in to not feel like you are in the driver's seat and able to make active intentional choices for what you cognitively, rationally know is right for your child. Like, what is that saying about us? Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:28:27]:
Mhmm. So what is what is a a a Catholic, and I would even say kind of a mentally healthy approach or vision of technology? We have talked before, and we may have a whole episode on it later on, about the the distinction between tools and toys. Right? That tools have a specific use. If you use a tool for what it's made for, you can do great things. You can build a house with a hammer and a saw. If you use a tool for something it was not made for, you can do great harm, and you can really hurt somebody with a hammer or a saw if you're not using it to build. Right? A toy is something different. A toy is just entertainment, and toys are nice in the sense that they can't really do much harm, but they're made for entertainment.

Pat Millea [00:29:12]:
That's fine. What's so tricky about technology is it's a tool that really feels like a toy.

Kenna Millea [00:29:17]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:29:18]:
Right? That

Kenna Millea [00:29:18]:
draws you in like a toy.

Pat Millea [00:29:19]:
Right. Yeah. It is made to function like a toy. And even the developers of certain apps and games, like, they hire umpteen, the entire fleets of psychologists Mhmm. To help them make the most addicting app to keep the kids' eyeballs on the screen of the phone and using their app, their product. Right? Because that's how they make money off of ads and in app purchases and and things like that. There was another quote from the Anxious Generation where Jonathan Haidt was quoting, the developer of some app, and I can't remember which one now. It might have been Instagram or Snapchat, one of the social media apps, who acknowledged that one of the competing, products, if you wanna call it that, in their marketing strategy was the sleep of their consumers.

Pat Millea [00:30:09]:
That their goal actually was to keep their consumers awake longer. It was Netflix. That's what it was. Netflix acknowledging

Kenna Millea [00:30:16]:
Oh, for sure.

Pat Millea [00:30:17]:
That sleep is one of the the limits to their market share. And the more they can make their shows addicting and have just autoplay that goes to the next episode that

Kenna Millea [00:30:27]:
you don't really Promote binge binge watching. Promote

Pat Millea [00:30:29]:
binge watching. That they can fight against the competitor of sleep and just health for their consumers. Right?

Kenna Millea [00:30:38]:
I mean, I think I just wanna, like, underscore, and we are not on here. Like, I I do not espouse, like, broad stroke bashing of, industries and, you know, what have you. But but I guess, like, as I'm listening to you, Pat, I'm just aware of we cannot outsource decisions for our life's health and decisions for parenting Bingo. Our children to be healthy. Right? Like, we cannot we cannot assume that a culture in a world that really doesn't share our values. And I would even say it's, like, counterintuitive to our value. You know, like, stands in opposition to things that we desire, like self gift and self sacrifice and a life of virtue and, a life of of simplicity and obedience. Like, that how can we assume then that a culture that that creates these products is looking out for our best interest? And so, yeah, I think our hope in creating this episode is certainly to offer some concrete data and food for thought, but also to just, like, yeah, share in a collective, like, hey, can can we support each other in this very hard work of being more intentional, being awake, and being actively engaged in discerning decisions for ourselves and for our children.

Pat Millea [00:32:00]:
Bingo. Bingo. And that's really helpful. I I feel like I may have started to come down a little bit hard and, like, villainize the existence of technology or social media in the first place. I don't mean to do that, but it that is a final word

Kenna Millea [00:32:12]:
for me. Angering to me. So I'm just, like, I'm with you there. But I do I don't wanna get lost about, like, what is it that we're actually saying here? Like, it's about, educate yourself, read these resources, check out the data. Like, it's really clear. And to not is to choose to live in ignorance. Yep. Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:32:31]:
So thank you.

Pat Millea [00:32:32]:
It's helpful, I think, with that kind of a mindset to to acknowledge that when you and I will eventually hand our child a cell phone, a smartphone, and say, you know, at the beginning with many many limitations, but knowing even then, even when we're not giving them access to every app or to unfettered Internet access, things like that. Even then, when I'm handing my child is a tool designed by people who desire to make money off of my child.

Kenna Millea [00:33:01]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:33:01]:
And they'll do whatever it takes to make money off of my child.

Kenna Millea [00:33:04]:
Doesn't make sense. It means engaging. Right? Well, how do they make money? Correct. They engage my child. Right. They, they, they have my child, they have me. Let's not even talk about our children. We don't have kids with cell phones yet.

Kenna Millea [00:33:13]:
Right. So, so for me, this is about me. This is about me looking at my habits. This is me having some really hard considerations of like, what am I modeling for my kids Last night, one of our sons was reading a book. It's a book he's reading for his literature class about it's it's a historical fiction of, yeah, the time of Jesus' birth. But, he was reading the book, and I was scrolling on Instagram. I hadn't had a chance to look at yesterday's my birthday. I was looking at birthday messages, and I was like, oh, gross.

Kenna Millea [00:33:43]:
Like, what an image right now? Like, he's got the book, and I'm like, like, ignoring him. And I, like, shut my phone down. I was like, hey, dude. What's the book about? You're loving it. Tell me all about the plot. Ugh. Anyway, so this is about me just as much as about our children.

Pat Millea [00:33:57]:
Yep. Yep. So maybe, I I would propose maybe a Catholic vision of technology, and one that you and I have talked about many, many times, Kenna, is finding a healthy middle ground to train our children in the healthy use of this tool. That the first way I think that we can go wrong is just giving a 10 year old a smartphone with no guidelines, rules, or limitations whatsoever.

Kenna Millea [00:34:24]:
I'm gonna say 16 year old. Or 16. I'm gonna up the ante. I'm gonna say 16 year old with no rules and no parental controls. I'm not for that either. You can send the hate mail. But I'm just I'm just coming out. Okay?

Pat Millea [00:34:37]:
That is that's that's your hill. That's great. Yep. Thanks. So that's I think that's the first way that that children are not prepared well to function in a healthy way in a technology landscape is to be given just have the the Internet dropped in their lap with with dropped in their lap with every access to pornography, apps, games, connections with strangers that are 55 years old and do not have their best interest at heart.

Kenna Millea [00:35:06]:
Retail, body image, consumerism. Yep. Yep.

Pat Millea [00:35:11]:
But I think what's interesting is the other extreme that you and I have seen a lot with folks that we know is the extreme of of, like, for lack of a better term, the Amish approach to technology, which is because of all the dangers and out of a legitimate rightful fear of the dangers it holds for my kids, my kid will never have a phone ever. And, you know maybe they'll have a phone when they move out and get a job of their own, then that's their prerogative, right? But under my home, my child will never have a cell phone, which I I gotta say I think there's there are dangers in that as well. The the best metaphor I can always connect to it is, you know, we would never, just have our child give them the keys to a car when they're 18 having no practice, no training, having never had a license before, and say get out there kid, good luck on the interstate. You know? The the fact is that you and I as parents have the grave and really beautiful responsibility to train our children about how to relate to a fallen broken world in a way that prepares them for it and doesn't just shelter them from it as long as possible.

Kenna Millea [00:36:21]:
Because this is just another way where we get to live out our values through the the everyday stuff. Right? Pat, you and I have expectations with each other around where technology gets to be and not be in our home, times that it does and does not get used when we're together or accountability even when we're when we're apart from each other. These are all ways that we live out those values and they get actual legs on them and and and move and walk around and we become the people that we feel called to be. Mhmm. So you're absolutely right. Like this role as parents to number 1, begin by modeling this and doing the hard work ourselves and, and not living in a state of hypocrisy for our children. Mhmm. But knowing that it is hard to have controls, knowing that it is hard to, to see the group text, you know, chain growing.

Kenna Millea [00:37:11]:
And and I'm resisting because it's crazy homework time and meal making time. And this would not be supportive of the ultimate value of serving my family. Like, so beginning there, but then with our kids, like, this is about something more than just, I want to be better than the statistics. Like, this is about what kind of life of flourishing am I allowing technology to be supportive of and where it stops being supportive, do I put it back in its place? Right. Cut it short.

Pat Millea [00:37:40]:
Yeah. And and it's up to every parent, you know, if you're a parent listening listening right now, it's up to every parent to make prudent, wise, loving decisions for each individual child. And even different children in one family are gonna need different things. Right? We you and I kinda have probably a few children, but one in particular who we will need to pull them back from desiring too much exposure to technology too soon, and we're gonna need to set up specific guardrails to make sure that he I think it's okay to at least say that much, that he, isn't getting into places that are dangerous for him and harmful for him. And on the other end of the spectrum, we just had a conversation with our daughter a few weeks ago where she was using technology, not getting into spaces of the Internet that you and I thought were morally problematic or even super harmful to her, but just using technology in a way that you and I had not approved of.

Kenna Millea [00:38:36]:
It wasn't consistent with our values. Like, it was not used in a way that yeah. Correct. Right.

Pat Millea [00:38:40]:
So she knew the expectations, was using technology in a way that was not consistent with what we had agreed upon. She loves listening to music, but was using one of our phones for this other, like, Internet type stuff. Right? So we had a conversation with her. It was a very good conversation, hard in some ways. But at one point, she said to you and I, I just I don't think I can be trusted with with using your phone for music. I don't think it's gonna work, because I can't trust myself to only do what I'm supposed to do. I I I can't use it.

Kenna Millea [00:39:12]:
The other stuff is just way too tantalizing.

Pat Millea [00:39:15]:
And you said to her, no. That's not okay. The the point is not to keep you away from technology, to to keep you from using it. The point is to slowly and gradually, at at as it's developmentally appropriate, help you grow in self discipline and self control.

Kenna Millea [00:39:31]:
And so I wanna be specific. Right? That that with that, we not only said to her, no, we are not just going to fly to this other end of the spectrum and cut you off entirely.

Pat Millea [00:39:41]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:39:41]:
But we said, this is showing us what just happened is teaching daddy and I that we've gotta help scaffold you a little more slowly and a little more securely. So we're gonna take it back. There was a time, you know, of abstaining from the use of technology for her. We're gonna take it back, and then we're gonna build you back up. And we put some different, mechanisms in place so that she can experience success of being in the driver's seat around technology. We didn't want her feeling like I don't have freedom. Either I'm gonna have access to it, and I'm just gonna do all the things that I feel like doing and not listen to the rules, or I can't have freedom. And I and I just can't even have it, have access to it.

Kenna Millea [00:40:20]:
Like, neither of those would be truly free, and neither of those would be using it as the tool that it's meant to be. And it's a great tool. It's it's a beautiful thing that helps her, yeah, it it fosters her love of of music and choreography and what have you. So we would be so sad to see that gone for her, but I I wanna be clear that we didn't just say to her, like, no. You don't know yourself. We're gonna make you use this. Like, no. No.

Kenna Millea [00:40:41]:
No. We said, yeah. You're right. Like, this is showing us. We gotta pull it back and take smaller steps toward your sense of agency with this.

Pat Millea [00:40:50]:
Right. Right. So if that's if that's a vision that you and I are proposing for folks to to to take in, to consider, to pray about, to talk about with their spouse, these are things that you and I, the way that you and I look at technology at least, what are some ways that that might look in flesh? What are some practical approaches to having conversations with kids, setting up the kind of relationship with technology in our family that is consistent with our values? And the first one that, you've already hinted at, Kenna, is that you and I as parents and we as adults out there in the world, we have the great duty and opportunity to model the vision that we This

Kenna Millea [00:41:30]:
is the hardest one, folks.

Pat Millea [00:41:31]:
It's the worst.

Kenna Millea [00:41:34]:
This is when you're, like, parenting. Is it all that it's cracked up to be?

Pat Millea [00:41:38]:
Because it's so easy to to, like, blame the teenagers, all those kids and their screens. And the fact is, like

Kenna Millea [00:41:43]:
It's just humans.

Pat Millea [00:41:44]:
And I am just as bad.

Kenna Millea [00:41:45]:
Yeah. It's just we humans Yeah. And our lack of self control.

Pat Millea [00:41:48]:
All human brains are susceptible to the kinds of addicting stuff that they create apps to be. Right? Yes. So modeling the vision. So you and I have had kind of some progressive conversations over the past 6 months, year maybe about ways that you and I want to start modeling technology use better for our kids as they're coming into the ages of really being attentive to what we're doing as we start laying down rules for them pretty soon. We don't want it to be anything inconsistent with what we do. So so some of the things we've done lately is not having any phones upstairs in our room, in our house, including in our bedroom, which we used to use them for alarms. We would, like, slow

Kenna Millea [00:42:28]:
all the

Pat Millea [00:42:28]:
time of the night. We would play music.

Kenna Millea [00:42:30]:
Show each other videos. Right.

Pat Millea [00:42:31]:
And some of that was really fine, like an alarm listening to music. Whatever. It's fine. Some of it was just really not fine. And it wasn't actively harmful necessarily, but it was interfering with the connection that you and I get to have at the end of the night unmitigated by somebody else's content. So leaving our phones downstairs so you and I don't get lost in the the endless scroll. Right? Which meant that you and I had the great opportunity to buy an alarm clock.

Kenna Millea [00:42:57]:
Guys, they still exist. Like, it was 1994. Very happy to sell them to or Walmart, Target, whatever. Beautiful. Your retailer of choice.

Pat Millea [00:43:03]:
So you wake up with classical music every morning now. It's great. Do. We have, you know, been more consistent with kind of shutting down screen time at the end of the night. So not getting our brains all wired and fired up by screen time and All

Kenna Millea [00:43:17]:
that blue light.

Pat Millea [00:43:18]:
Blue light is what they tell me. And then even, I'm I'm trying to do a better job of just like docking my phone at home, quote unquote. So not just carrying it around the house in my pocket for anyone to reach me at any time, but plugging it in, putting it on the kitchen counter, and just leaving it. And if I need it, it's there. It's fine. But setting up this thing more for me than anyone else, but also for folks in our, you know, greater network that you and I are not just eternally available.

Kenna Millea [00:43:47]:
Yeah. Always accessible.

Pat Millea [00:43:48]:
Which has been one of the great problems of this social media technology age that we expect people to be at our beck and call 247. That when someone leaves work, they're not really done with work because they have their email on their phone, and their clients or or colleagues all have their cell phone number so they can be contacted at any point in time. So just setting up a pretty healthy boundary, I think, of like right now I am with these people in my home, and if I need my phone, it's right there. If I don't need it, it's not gonna come looking for me.

Kenna Millea [00:44:18]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. That challenge of, like, do work at work and do home at home. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, another thing has been trying to make that transition of the buzz that being connected to technology, you know, whether it's emails.

Kenna Millea [00:44:30]:
I mean, honestly, email is my greatest culprit. Email and text, I guess, even more so than social media for me. But, like, the the drive home from work, like, really making the intentional shift of, like, this is a different pace. There's a different level of stimulation that I'm gonna get when I get home, you know, having conversations with 5 year olds. So so, yeah, these are very concrete ways to to help set up those boundaries and, again, to get back in the driver's seat. I will die saying that, won't I? Yes. We are made to be in charge of this, to be the consumers, not the consumed. So

Pat Millea [00:45:08]:
I think another good, practical approach is to start having or continue having really good open conversations with your spouse and obviously with your kids around technology. So so asking questions or having conversations on topics like the things that you hope for for your children. What what what dreams do you have for them? They don't have to be their dreams, and you're not gonna this isn't living vicariously through your kids. But to say to your child, like, I want you to have a full free life. I don't want you to feel like you're addicted to your phone and that you can't forge solid friendships in college or as an adult because you don't know how to interact with somebody face to face. I want you to be able to have difficult conversations and not just pull your phone out when things get hard or awkward as a way out of a difficult moment.

Kenna Millea [00:45:58]:
Numb it out. Right. Dissociate.

Pat Millea [00:46:00]:
Yeah. I want you to have relationships and friendships that aren't competitive, that aren't measured by likes and retweets and views. I I want you to have, like, stable and healthy and freely given friendships and relationships. And to say to a child, like, I really enjoy being around you, and I want you to be a active member of this family. Like if if you were disengaged from this family or maybe you're at the point where you have maybe a 15, 16 year old who is a little bit disengaged, being able to say to them, you know, maybe bluntly but lovingly, when you are disengaged on your phone, I miss you and and I really do enjoy being around you. And I I want you to be connected to me because I have this great desire to be connected to you, you know. Even saying to a kid why they are important to you. Why does it matter that they're connected to the family or that you want them to have a great life? What what do you value about them? I think it's totally fitting and healthy to have conversations with kids of any age, and you know the conversation looks different for a 6 year old than it does for a 16 year old, what you want to protect your children from.

Kenna Millea [00:47:09]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:47:10]:
That there are real dangers out there. And not allowing a kid to use Snapchat when they're 12 is not because you don't trust the 12 year old. It's because you don't trust the people that they might interact with out in the world Mhmm. Who don't know them. They don't care about them, and they might take advantage of them. You know? Mhmm. Acknowledging that there are dangers in the world, not creating this this culture of fear in our families or in our children, not making them afraid to move, but helping them to acknowledge I it is my job to make sure that you are loved and that you are healthy. And some of these apps, some of these devices just are not going to be healthy for you to use.

Kenna Millea [00:47:46]:
Because a 12 year old doesn't have the development to discern that for themselves. Right? That is our job as parents. And really, up until they leave our home, like, we know that their brains are still cooking until their mid twenties. And so they need to borrow that sense of discernment and that sense of prudence from us, not only in our modeling of it, but also in making those choices for them and helping set up those guardrails. Right? The the guardrails become further and further apart as they get older and the lane becomes wider and they have increasing freedom. But but being thoughtful about that and being clear about it. And how often do we say pat to our 45 year olds who want something like, I know you want that thing. And also my mommy job is to help keep you safe.

Kenna Millea [00:48:31]:
And so therefore or to help, you know, God better. And so therefore, we're gonna go to Mass or we're gonna, you know, whatever. I remember the other night, one of our, boys, like, we love watching, like, we love watching Cost n Mayor, this, husband wife choreographer dance choreography duo and, like, one of our sons in particular, like, loves watching those videos with me. And he knows that I will jump on the phone to spend some time with him, snuggle with him, and watch these videos. So the other night he asked me, can we watch some Cost n Mayor? And I said, no. And he goes, why not? Well, we're not doing anything. Like, the dishes are done. And he kinda looked around and I said, no.

Kenna Millea [00:49:02]:
It's okay. It's not an inappropriate time. Just sometimes, bud, it's good to say no. Like it's good to train ourselves and to continue disciplining and conditioning ourselves to remember that, like, we can do this, that feeling out of control, feeling like we are compelled to consume. That's a dangerous spot. And I don't wanna be there, and I don't want you to be there. So we're not gonna watch Cost n Mayor. You can play a card game with me, which really disappointed him, but that's okay.

Kenna Millea [00:49:28]:
Until he beat me until he beat me in face to face

Pat Millea [00:49:30]:
And then he rallied.

Kenna Millea [00:49:31]:
And then he was fine.

Pat Millea [00:49:33]:
And one of the other topics, I think, kind of to to that end as well is talking to our kids about what the ways that you do want them to use technology. So so being able to say to a kid because it's easy for a kid to kind of, like, go to end of the world mode and be like, my mom will never let me have a phone. She's the worst. And being able to say to a child, like, no. No. That is that is your irrational brain talking, and that's okay. What I'm saying to you is I do want you to have a phone someday, eventually Mhmm. But not today.

Pat Millea [00:50:03]:
Mhmm. I I want you to be able to function in a healthy way with a phone, with social media, with email. I I want you to be able to use those things well, and I'm gonna help you do that. But today is not that day.

Kenna Millea [00:50:15]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. I think too, and I don't know if you're gonna touch on this, but, I I think what I hear a lot of is parents feeling who who maybe desire things like we're talking about, Pat, but feeling in isolation, feeling like other parents in their kid's friend group or in the school or even administration.

Pat Millea [00:50:34]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:50:35]:
I know I had someone recently say to me that after some really, really unfortunate and devastating things happened for their child related to media and the technology that the school is providing, went to the superintendent and spoke about it to him. And he said, we're going with the culture. Like, the culture is moving forward with technology. And so you gotta figure out you gotta figure out how to help your kid then, because we're not we're not changing our approach right now. And and so to, I I don't know. It it it may sound silly that in a podcast, like, we could offer community, but, like, I mean this genuinely. You're hearing how my red fire breathing dragon is coming out about this. Right? Like, I mean, this authentically that, like, we care deeply about this.

Kenna Millea [00:51:17]:
And if you are feeling like you are alone, feeling isolated, like reach out to us. We would love to be able to walk with you, support you, be community for you in this because this is so deeply important. You know, as our kids are coming of age, we're seeing how important it is for us to to to feel the strength, to feel the camaraderie of other parents who are resisting this and are fighting this fight. I don't know what it would be like, Pat, for us to say to our almost 14 year old daughter Yeah. No. You can't have a phone if all of her other 9 out of 10 friends did. Yeah. But that's not our situation, and I praise God for that.

Kenna Millea [00:51:50]:
And I don't know how often that's gonna happen for us, but for our first child, I'm feeling pretty grateful. So anyway, I I think that that cannot be I I empathize with those who are feeling like, yeah, but I'm the only one who feels this way and wants this in my life, in my marriage, in my kids' friend group.

Pat Millea [00:52:10]:
And Jonathan Haidt talks about that kind of communal power as well. And he he says specifically, like, it doesn't take half of your child's class not having phones to give you a little bit of of peace and relief knowing that you're not standing on an island by yourself. He says, if you can connect with 2 or 3 other families and you can agree together, maybe your your kids' friends, their parents, if you can agree together, we're not gonna our kids are not gonna have a phone until they're 14. Our kids are not gonna use social media until they're 16. Even that alone can provide so much incredible peace and support for parents just to know that someone is in this with them. Right?

Kenna Millea [00:52:53]:
I don't know if this is helpful, but I just saw on social media that Joanna and Chip Gaines do not give their children social media until they leave the house. So if you feel like you are not gonna be a cool fun parent. Okay? Chip and Jojo, they're doing it. They're doing it.

Pat Millea [00:53:07]:
One of the other kind of practical things I think I I'd love to, offer is to especially maybe for for parents who have already gone down the road of technology with their kids and are wishing that they could unring the bell a little bit, kinda pull back on some of the use. Whether whether you're considering giving a kid technology now or never, whatever the the kind of coming to the middle looks like, is to not just remove technology and leave a vacuum and a void in the life of our kids, but to fill that space with really good things. Engaging, joyful, energy producing things.

Kenna Millea [00:53:47]:
Yeah. Well, it reminds me earlier this week, one of our kids, he he seemed like whenever he was bored, he would just start to ask about screens. Like, can I watch this? Can I watch this video? Can I watch a Dude Perfect Thing? Can I whatever? And so I said to you, he had this long break coming up from school, and I was like, oh my gosh. I don't wanna fight him every hour of the day about screens. We had a couple appointed times that we were gonna watch media as a family. And so I said to you, can you ask him, go look up a recipe, pick something, send me the ingredient list. I'll buy it on the way home from work, and that's what they can do tonight when they're babysitting as opposed to just zoning out and watching a movie. So you're totally right, Pat.

Kenna Millea [00:54:21]:
Like, they need our help in directing them towards, like, what would give me that similar experience of feeling alive, feeling like I'm full of joy, feeling like I've accomplished something, feeling yeah. That that, you know, mimicking that dopamine hit that we do get from tech and social media. Again, it's gonna take work on our part. Mhmm. But it's possible. It really is possible.

Pat Millea [00:54:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, even just the different age ranges and their relationships with screens, there are ways to pull back on some of that exposure and to input better things. You know? So, there there's lots of research for young, young children between the ages of, like, 14 about the risks of screen time at all with them. And listen, I am an avid on the record Bluey superfan. I get it, and I get that it is it's fine to watch Bluey or whatever your show is with your kid once in a while, but I also know the temptation that I feel as a parent that when things get hard in parenting, it is so much easier to just put on a show or to show something on YouTube. And the kids will be immediately quieter, which sometimes in the moment is all I really want.

Pat Millea [00:55:33]:
But it's been a really good training process for me to learn how to tolerate short term suffering in terms of the noise of my children for the sake of a long term gain, for their development, for them not relying on a screen for soothing even when they're teenagers. So maybe it's inserting, some kind of a game or a toy or just letting them play out in the backyard, unsupervised, quote unquote, just free play in the backyard where they're safe, but they also can run around and they can get bumps and bruises, whatever. When they're a little older as children, if there's a tendency to just wanna chase down a phone of their own or mom and dad's phone to listen to music or to text their friends or whatever, inserting stuff that's really exciting and thrilling for them. And again, it's gonna take work. It may not be something they're super excited about. Maybe it is cooking and baking. Maybe it's a musical instrument. Maybe it's climbing a tree out in the woods and falling off once in a while and getting a sprained ankle, but they grow and get tougher because of that because they learn they can do tough things.

Pat Millea [00:56:33]:
Maybe it's going down to the store at the corner and getting a couple things that the family needs, but they feel this sense of like agency and supporting the family doing a grown up thing, going shopping, you know. In high school instead of just throwing social media at them and giving them unfettered Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat access, maybe there's stuff that we really do encourage them to do out in the real world. So like not just, you know, maybe they would go get a job somewhere, but what if you like went and shoveled the snow for your neighbors and you made money that way? What if you raked leaves and made money that way? Or what if

Kenna Millea [00:57:08]:
you don't make money and

Pat Millea [00:57:09]:
just did it inside? What if you go to to sweet Ethel down the block, and you just rake her leaves? And maybe you don't even tell her, but you know it needs to be done, so you just go do it. Right? Like, you find ways to be connected and engaged. And again, as high schoolers, maybe you go see your friends in real life. Like, the year by year, the time that a high school and adolescent spends with their real life friends face to face has been declining for about a decade. So what does it mean to just, like, go to Steak and Shake or Chick Fil A with your friends and sit with them?

Kenna Millea [00:57:40]:
What we do, we open up our home. We say to our kids, like, plan a night for your this weekend, we will have a Marvel movie and a chili dinner at our house, with our 2 oldest and a bunch of their friends. So it takes sacrifice. Right? Like, we have to have an investment in it as well. But, like, would I rather that than than see our kids on the computer, you know, chatting? Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

Pat Millea [00:58:03]:
It takes work. But holy cow, you guys, is it worth it? My love, what about some kind of a challenge by choice to get you and I

Kenna Millea [00:58:12]:
I mean, I feel like there were 85 challenge by choices tucked in here, but I'll

Pat Millea [00:58:16]:
give you summarize maybe.

Kenna Millea [00:58:18]:
One that I would say is, like, yeah. I I really love this spectrum that I feel like you're laying out for us of noticing where we're at kind of from one end of, no controls. Right? Technology, kind of free range technology, in in my life and in my child's life all the way down to, like, shut her down and and lack of access. Right?

Pat Millea [00:58:39]:
If you can charge it, it's the devil.

Kenna Millea [00:58:41]:
The lack of lack of even giving them experience with it. So number 1 would be just like, yeah, noticing, beginning with that self knowledge. Right? Of like, where do I lean? Where do I, kind of find myself? Where am I inclined to be on that spectrum? And, just to be honest about that and then to consider, okay, in light of that, and with a desire to maybe move more toward that, that difficult middle, that both and, of being aware, being intentional, being engaged, and also, being yeah. Helping, yourself, helping your children to, increase their, what, dexterity around the world of of technology and social media. Like, what would be a next step to move me toward a healthier balance? Maybe we would say integration of those two sides. I think that's a decent starting place.

Pat Millea [00:59:30]:
I love that. Yeah. Yeah. What direction do I need to move to help train my kids well to live in this technological world world, and what's a good first step to move in that direction? I love that. That's great. Beautiful, babe. Well, why don't we pray for the good of all of our children and for us as parents?

Kenna Millea [00:59:46]:
Come on, guardian angels. In the

Pat Millea [00:59:49]:
name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Lord Jesus, we praise you, and we love you. And we thank you for the gift that you've given us of, of this life that we lead, of the families that you have entrusted us with, and these precious children that you have put in our lives. Lord, help thank you for, for calling us to to raise them with your help to to be an image of you in their lives and to lead them to you. And, Lord, we pray for all of our children and for all parents who are hearing this, for their encouragement, for their consolation, and for their sense of agency and courage when it comes to navigating the really difficult conversations and interactions around technology and social media. Lord, I pray for your healing for those families who, feel like they're they're weighed down by constant arguments and disagreements and divisions around technology. And I ask for the prayers in a particular way of Blessed Carlo Acutis, soon to be Saint Carlo, for his prayers for each of us that we can use the tool of technology for your glory and experience the health and the wholeness that you desire for us along the way.

Pat Millea [01:01:16]:
We ask all this, Jesus, as always in your holy name. Amen.

Kenna Millea [01:01:19]:
Amen. In the

Pat Millea [01:01:21]:
name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Friends, we are always grateful for you, and you're welcome to find us on Instagram, @thiswholelifepodcast. Again, it's not about never using social media. It's about using it in the way that it was designed and Instagram was designed for you to send us messages. So, look us up and, by all means feel free to download this episode, share it with a friend who's going through some of these same struggles that you and I both are as parents, and you can check us out online on our website at thiswholelifepodcast.com. On behalf of all of your children who cannot wait to hear what you have stated after this episode, I would like to say thank you and, God bless you, friends.

Kenna Millea [01:02:07]:
God bless you.

Pat Millea [01:02:13]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Kenna Millea [01:02:31]:
3, this whole life, take 425.

Pat Millea [01:02:36]:
Take 60 more like, but that's great.

Kenna Millea [01:02:40]:
I've only made us rerecord, like, twice.

Pat Millea [01:02:43]:
That's pretty great. Yeah. More like 70 Hey. For 60 episodes.

Kenna Millea [01:02:47]:
I've only done it, like, twice.

Pat Millea [01:02:51]:
Like, twice. You might be misremembering a little bit. It's not 10, but it's not twice either.

Kenna Millea [01:02:54]:
Oh, my gosh.

Pat Millea [01:02:56]:
I feel like my

Kenna Millea [01:02:57]:
good name is being slandered here.

Pat Millea [01:02:59]:
Ready?