Ep63 Facing the Big Questions w/ Alex Wallace, LPCC

“All of humanity’s problems stem from man’s inability to sit quietly in a room alone.”
~ Blaise Pascal

Do the big, existential questions of life really matter?
Why is it so tempting to avoid the big questions?
How can I deal with the big questions in ways that I can process?

In Episode 63 of This Whole Life, Pat and Kenna engage with clinical counselor Alex Wallace to explore the big questions: Why am I here? What is my purpose? Should I be vulnerable with others? Alex emphasizes the necessity of vulnerability and community in addressing existential questions and mental health challenges such as anxiety and depression. Drawing from personal experiences and Catholic teachings, he integrates faith with therapy, highlighting the crucial support therapists can provide in addressing deeper issues. The episode weaves humor with wisdom, referencing St. John Paul II’s Theology of the Body and the Lion King. Join the conversation to face the things that really matter.

Alex is Catholic, a husband and a father of four. He is also a Counselor with the Ruah Woods Institute and has twelve years of clinical experience, working to serve the needs of individuals in various settings, including private practice, community outpatient services, intensive youth rehabilitation, hospital chaplaincy, and collegiate sport performance. Alex holds credentials as a Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor with training supervision designation (LPCC-S) in Ohio and is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor (LMHC) in Indiana.

Episode 63 Show Notes

The Ruah Woods Institute

Chapters:
0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
14:02: The journey to becoming a Catholic therapist
23:32: Existential questions & mental health
29:27: Vulnerability & the Lion King
42:37: Practicing as an authentically Catholic therapist
51:05: Challenge By Choice

Reflection Questions:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. In what ways does embracing vulnerability contribute to healing of mind & soul?
3. Why is community essential in the process of wholeness according to the discussion?
4. What big questions do you reflect on often? What big questions do you tend to avoid?
5. In what ways does the world push us away from the big questions of life? What impact does that have on us, psychologically & spiritually?

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

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Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 14:02 The journey to becoming a Catholic therapist
• 23:32 Existential questions & mental health
• 29:27 Vulnerability & the Lion King
• 42:37 Practicing as an authentically Catholic therapist
• 51:05 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Alex Wallace [00:00:00]:
And then we as clinicians, we get to capture that. We get to hold them, you know, we get to hold that moment with them and so, like, I know you sense the shame and I'm with you. I'm right here with you. And I'm so proud of you for being courageous. And we get to invite them to reflect that. Like, that's evangelization.

Pat Millea [00:00:27]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader, and I'm here with my bride, Kenna, a licensed marriage and family therapist. This is the stuff she and I talk about all the time, doing dishes in the car on a date. We're excited to bring you this podcast for educational purposes. It's not therapy or a substitute for mental health care. So come on in. Have a seat at our dining room table and join the conversation with us. We are so glad you're here.

Kenna Millea [00:01:16]:
Welcome back to This Whole Life, everyone. It is awesome to be with you, and I am extra, extra excited because not only do I have my beloved Pat Millea.

Pat Millea [00:01:25]:
Hello.

Kenna Millea [00:01:26]:
But also a new and awesome friend, mister Alex Wallace. Welcome to This Whole Life.

Alex Wallace [00:01:31]:
Hello, Kenna. Hello, Pat. Thank you guys for having me.

Pat Millea [00:01:35]:
Thanks for being here, man.

Alex Wallace [00:01:36]:
Good to see you. Absolutely.

Kenna Millea [00:01:37]:
You too. We are so pumped, Alex. You and I got to meet through, the McGrath Institute's teaching life and human dignity symposium, which sounds way loftier than it actually was. And by that, I mean, it was, like, a really awesome down to earth experience, and in that, got to know you and know your approach and was like, Pat, we gotta have Alex here. So thank you for your yes.

Alex Wallace [00:02:00]:
Absolutely. Yeah. It was so cool to be on a panel with you and connect, and it's so cool to be back. And to see your face again, you know, it's something I love so much about, being a human person is that we embody this love that we we share with one another and we can see each other's names and emails, but just being connected in at least in this virtual space is, doing wonders for my heart. It's great. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:02:24]:
Yeah. Well, great. Welcome aboard, man. Let me help our audience get to know you a little bit, Alex. So, I always it's always funny to be reading an intro of someone to their face. So, let me tell you about

Kenna Millea [00:02:36]:
Do you want him to close his eyes? Right. That'd be helpful.

Pat Millea [00:02:39]:
Alex, you are a Catholic, husband. He's a father of 4. He's also a counselor with the Ruah Woods Institute, which I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit. He has 12 years of clinical experience, and he serves individuals in lots of different settings in private practice, community outpatient services, intensive youth rehabilitation, hospital chaplaincy, college sport performance. He is a licensed professional clinical counselor in Ohio and also a licensed mental health counselor in Indiana. So, Alex Wallace, welcome aboard, man.

Alex Wallace [00:03:12]:
Thank you. You nailed it. I think that's me.

Pat Millea [00:03:17]:
That's who you said you were at least. So we're gonna go with it.

Alex Wallace [00:03:20]:
That sounds good.

Kenna Millea [00:03:23]:
Well Alex I mentioned to you we start our episodes with a high and hard just to get a sense of like life lately especially because you and I Alex haven't chatted in months. Yeah. So just to share a little bit about life lately and something I know about you is that it's always ladies first in your world so I will do that. I force my husband sometimes to let me go second but I will I will I will do the hard thing and go first today.

Alex Wallace [00:03:45]:
Thank you.

Kenna Millea [00:03:46]:
Walk out on that vulnerable limb. So I think you know especially being with you 2 who are parents up to your eyeballs as well of you know trying to to do life and to do everyday things with this beautiful brood of small people behind us. My hard lately is this awareness you guys, this is gonna sound so simple, but, like, this awareness of, like, children are not small adults. Like, they are they are actually, like, quite different beings and have really different capacities, and their, like, mental processes are different than ours, and their needs, sensorially and just energy wise and explanation, like, cognitively, like, what they it's just it's so different. And so just something as simple, you know, Pat and I were talking this morning about, like, how was just the morning routine for you? Like, we were there together for it, but, like, what was your experience of it like today, honey? And and just the yeah, the real like coming to the reality accepting the truth of like they are not small adults and so I need to be more patient I need to explain things I need to, yeah just I don't know let them in on what's going on in our world, in a different way than I do with another adult who I'm just like just get on board and let's go man. So that is tough it it slows things down it challenges me it requires me to be creative and when I'm like living life at Mach 10 speed I don't have a lot of that like creativity and margin and so it's like they force me to be attentive and to be attuned. That's tough it's real tough I'm I'm open to any advice my in my inbox is available if you hold up maybe I shouldn't open that up actually but, that is.

Pat Millea [00:05:40]:
Masters out there Yeah. Yes.

Alex Wallace [00:05:42]:
Dialing up an email right now.

Kenna Millea [00:05:45]:
I also used to be a parenting master. And then I did the real thing. Okay. So that is my hard lately. Now I've got 0 answers folks.

Alex Wallace [00:05:55]:
Not I do.

Kenna Millea [00:05:57]:
My high, would be, that I am loving this extended like warm weather we're experiencing in Minnesota. I am not quite ready to let go of like warm temps and being without snow boots and mittens and all that jazz so I am appreciating this. And I don't know how long we're gonna have it I'm just gonna receive what the Lord offers me like each hour, but the sunshine and the warmth yeah it just it is it brings a lot of joy to me and I think part of it is this reality of like the great outdoors remains this extension of our home and it feels like all of us malaise have just a little more space from each other too, which maybe ups the the joy quotient. So that's me in a nutshell lately. Alex, what about you?

Alex Wallace [00:06:49]:
What's up? Man, that was really awesome. Thank you so much for that share. And, it's some similar things. I think as parents, these are things that we just especially as parents that really wanna be good parents, these are things that we turn over a lot. So the themes that you're talking about, I'm like, oh, yeah. I could totally relate to that. I think, growing in this beautiful sanctifying vocation has been, really a hard and a challenge and a beautiful in so many beautiful ways. And really respecting where each of my children are at different steps on their journey, that they aren't what the the 5 year old is capable of in comparison to what the 2 year old is in comparison to, you know, the other kiddos, the 9 month old and such.

Alex Wallace [00:07:34]:
Like, it's it's, they're different. Although they're all small kiddos, they're also not adults, so their ability to rationalize all of that. I I just I echo that, tremendously. I think, hard has been probably in relationally with my wife in so many beautiful ways. I mean, without her, I don't know where I would be. She is the strength to my stability. She provides so much care to our children. She's truly inspiring.

Alex Wallace [00:08:04]:
And and each of us are going through individual life journey changes, all the while trying to be, the the best parents we can be, the best spouses we can be. And so with that, we sometimes run into times where we struggle with each other and work to address that healthfully and well. And so I'm carrying her really close to my heart today because we're just in one of those tough spots of navigating children, navigating our own relationship, and trying to grow individually in our relationships with God. So that's a challenge. And and what is that especially as a therapist, you know, I I can analyze it, take a step back. But what does it take? It takes courage to identify it, to talk about it, to grow, from both of us. And we have that, but it takes that initial step to be like, okay. I'm sorry.

Alex Wallace [00:08:53]:
You were right. I was wrong. I shouldn't have done this or whatever it was, and to work towards that. So that's a little bit of a a tough one right now, challenge. And, looking forward to trying to do that later tonight when I get to see her again. A hi is I have Last week, I took a a personal retreat day. When the weather starts getting a bit gray and things start to get a little bit weighty, I can feel it emotionally. I'm a sensitive soul in that regard.

Alex Wallace [00:09:22]:
And so, it's really good to take a time away. And so for me, that's 2 sleeps. I I just find that as long as I have 2 sleeps and between that, there's none of that, like, vocational commitment of having to be a husband or a father. That that does like a really cool hard reset for me. And so while I was on that personal retreat, you know, I missed I was deep within the sacraments. Went to Mass. Went to, the sacrament of reconciliation. Was in adoration.

Alex Wallace [00:09:47]:
Read a really good book by Caryll Houselander. And she's just such a rock star. And so there's been continued fruit that's been born through that that's helped to refocus my mind and my understanding of my role in the lives, of God as his son, and the life of of my wife as her brother, as her husband, and the role as father, for my children and trying to reflect the love of the Father. So that has continued to bear fruit even though that was almost already a week ago at this point.

Pat Millea [00:10:26]:
That's beautiful. It's a great opportunity and thanks for thanks for being real about the the challenges of the holy marriage too. It just Absolutely. That's there there's no perfect marriage out there and, the ones that are really committed to sanctity are sometimes the ones that require, not more purification, but just as much purification as any others along the way. So Yeah. Thanks for being upfront about that. It's beautiful.

Alex Wallace [00:10:52]:
You're welcome. Yeah. Absolutely.

Pat Millea [00:10:54]:
Yeah. For me, I think, my hard recently has been, Kenna, my love. Speaking of, sanctifying marriage, you have been under the weather the past week or so, give or take. And, just like, you know, what I think it's a Brene Brown thing maybe that marriage is never 50/50 that, it's, you know, it one spouse typically is carrying more of the load on any given day. Sometimes it's a 100/0, and sometimes it's 60/40, but you can never expect any day in marriage to be 50/50 where both of you are doing the equal amount of work. You know, it's a recipe for resentment probably. So, in the midst of kinda you being sick, which is you are not a you're not a person to just, like, wave the white flag easily. So when you get sick, I know it's for real because you don't enjoy being out of commission.

Pat Millea [00:11:46]:
We also were getting ready for house guests and, a couple different rounds of house guests this week, traveling next week, coming back from a trip. So lots of stuff going on, and, it was probably harder for you, babe, than it was for me being sick and feeling like junk. But it was a little bit difficult trying to do all the, like, physical house prep and kid prep to get ready for all that stuff. So it wasn't, unbearable. And and actually, I think went fairly well without with, like, minimal screaming for me, I'm pretty sure. You should talk to the kids later on, but I think that was how it went. But it was just, you know, it's a burden, but it's, you know, the load is easy and the burden's light in, marriage or something like that. So, the high was that last weekend, we got to go back to our sweet alma mater.

Pat Millea [00:12:36]:
We went back to Notre Dame, and we have not been to Notre Dame in probably 6 years, give or take, definitely pre COVID. And it was just so great. My parents came with us, for the weekend, and my mom had not been to a football game there since I graduated from college 20 years ago. We got to walk around campus and point out all kinds of buildings and tell great stories to our kids about how we met and what dorms we were in and who our friends were. And, I was in the marching band, so we did all kinds of band stuff when we were there. And it was just so great and, like, beautifully nostalgic in every possible way. And, it was it was pretty special. So shout out to, Abby and all the folks at Therese Little Flower Parish that, gave us the opportunity to go back to home sweet dome as they say.

Alex Wallace [00:13:25]:
Yes.

Pat Millea [00:13:26]:
So it was glorious. Yep. Yeah. And they won a football game, which is There it is. Icing on the cake.

Kenna Millea [00:13:30]:
Yes. Thank goodness. I would not have to drive home with you had they not.

Pat Millea [00:13:35]:
That would have that would have been your hard if you had had to drive home with me after a loss. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:13:39]:
You and our children.

Alex Wallace [00:13:41]:
They kinda were looking like they didn't wanna win that game for a short bit. Yes.

Pat Millea [00:13:45]:
Yes. To the folks in your neck of the woods in Miami of Ohio. Yeah.

Alex Wallace [00:13:50]:
Mhmm. Oh my gosh. So much Notre Dame has been a really interesting football season this year. Hopefully, they can keep it figured figured out and keep it moving in the right direction. Yes, please.

Kenna Millea [00:14:01]:
Oh, man. Well, speaking of direction, my gentlemen, I'm wondering if we can turn the corner into the episode for today. And, Alex, I I I can remember it quite clearly, when you and I and our colleague Maggie were speaking on this panel on human dignity and life, and and you really spoke so courageously about how you see existential questions as being at the heart of many mental health struggles, disorders, distress. And and so I I wanna just, you know, kind of send us all this or set up this vision of like that's where we're going and I'd like to take a couple steps back and actually start with, kind of how you even came into this work as a Catholic, as a therapist, as a Catholic therapist. Right? Like, you in in the midst of the rural woods ministry, like, you are very intentional, similar to us at the Martin Center, of, like, integrating our faith and mental health. And and people, I think, oftentimes, I don't know if this is how you experience it too, Alex, but they're like they'll, like, congratulate me, like, way to go, like, like, way to do this hard thing. And I'm like, no, no. This is how I see it.

Kenna Millea [00:15:16]:
Like, I can't unsee the integration of our faith and mental health the way that our faith has given us this gift of understanding the human person and what what the person is made for what it longs for and and how mental health gets wrapped up in that so anyway all that to say I would just love to open it up 1st and foremost to like can you tell us a bit about how you came to be where you are so that I think it'll give us some context for then hearing how you conceptualize your work with your clients and and how you see humans in the midst of their mental health. So, Catholic therapist a Catholic therapist. Tell us about that.

Alex Wallace [00:15:55]:
Yeah. Oh, I can't wait. You know, I when I was in high school, I had some knee injuries, and I was really, I I loved playing football. I had this belief that I would go on to maybe play college football. And, so in my junior year and senior year, I had a couple ACL replacements and things that held me back a little bit. And during that time of rehab, which had to be pretty quick, I started going through physical therapy and one of my trainers talked to me about, hey. You know, what do you wanna they asked me the questions. So what do you wanna do when you grow up now that you're a junior, almost a senior, and then eventually as a senior again to look at the future? And I said, you know, I wanna do sports, but I don't know if that's going to be realistic.

Alex Wallace [00:16:38]:
But I know what it's like to be hurt now. And I would love to help people who are hurt, who have who are on this journey of recovery and want to reenter into the field, to enter their sport, what have you. And so she asked me if I'd ever heard about sport and exercise psychology before. At that time, I hadn't. It's still even to this day a pretty young field. So when I went to undergrad, I met with a a local, the local sport and exercise psychologist in Indianapolis who worked with a lot of professional teams. And he was actually the president of that section of the American Psychological Association. And he was he got his education at Ball State.

Alex Wallace [00:17:20]:
And I grew up in Muncie, Indiana. And so, anyone that's not familiar with where Muncie is, it's a little northeast of Indianapolis. It's got a fun secular institution, but a really phenomenal Newman Center, there. And so when he said, how about Ball State? It's got a cutting edge sport and exercise psychology and counseling program. I started to explore and leaned into it, and turns out that's where I went for grad school. As I was going through that process of grad school and started having some pretty big faith filled moments in my life of conversion, I decided, you know what? This Catholic church and the people that are around it seem to have the answer to the longings of so many in my heart. So I had experienced some some suffering and some woundedness. There there was some, you know, symptoms of depression and anxiety that I was experiencing at at the time, struggling to understand who I am, what my what my purpose in life, what am I going to do, especially so many different identity things that didn't shake it up.

Alex Wallace [00:18:25]:
And what I found was that the people that I had in my life, particularly these people that were joy filled, positive, focus driven on the future, seem to just have some sense of stability. They were Catholic. And they continue to point me back to, okay, whatever they have, I want to come to know more. And so while I was in grad school, I became Catholic. I wasn't baptized. So, I went through baptism, confirmation of first communion, all in the same night, that beautiful Easter vigil. And, that was 2015. And, around that time, you know, I'm going through my master's program and this and this, my wife at the time or my wife now, who is at the time the campus minister and the pastor there, father Sean, they both approached me at different times and said, hey, you know what we really need is I know that you're interested in doing counseling.

Alex Wallace [00:19:22]:
And I had been doing some sport and exercise psychology stuff working with college athletes. But what I ended up finding was like I really loved working with just people trying to navigate challenges of life. And so I was thinking more about just leaning really fully into this counseling work. And they said to me, we need Catholic counselors. We need not just people who are willing to do the the good cognitive behavioral work, but are able to see something in others that others may fail to see within themselves, being made in the image and likeness of God, the true dignity that is inherent to all of us being born, being given these beautiful souls and the capacity to think, and these rationally dependent creatures that we are, and reflecting the love of the Father. And I was like, bet. That sounds awesome. I kinda wanna do that.

Alex Wallace [00:20:13]:
So here I was and I in this long trajectory, I entered into. I'd started doing some spiritual spiritual work at the hospital, some chaplaincy to try to figure out how to integrate these soft skills of counseling and my faith. And then we together, Sarah and I, she discerned, entering into the masters of divinity program at Notre Dame. And so we decided to move up there together. And, so then I started becoming more familiar with Catholic anthropology and Catholic teaching based off of the work that she was reading and trying to help her through her graduate studies, all the while being in that beautiful South Bend, Notre Dame, Mishawaka area community, which is such an on fire faith. And then eventually, we started having kiddos. And and Sarah is from Dayton, Ohio, which is where we live now. And she was like, you know what? I've heard about Ruah Woods.

Alex Wallace [00:21:04]:
I think they're a really awesome Catholic psychotherapy, clinic that you should look into. And this was, you know, like I said, back when I was in grad school, this dream had been planted in my head. It was like, be a Catholic counselor. And that can look of of various ways. Right? They could be presented in a bunch of different ways, but there was something always that I'd always wanted to work alongside other Catholic clinicians and also learn, from the best and be in that sense of community, with other catholic clinicians as well. And so, we decided we wanted to move back to Dayton to be closer closer to grandparents to help us to raise these beautiful little kiddos. At the same time, doctor Andrew and his team was open to expansion into the Dayton area. So God provides and found, like, a perfect place for us.

Alex Wallace [00:21:53]:
And so here I was. They accepted me and they welcomed me in. I've been here at Ruah Woods now for 3 years. And, yeah, doing this beautiful Catholic counseling work, working with individuals, couples, families, clergy, lay persons, and all the same time working together with the other clinicians on the staff to understand. And so many of them either went to DMU or Christendom or other college other universities and colleges that had this Catholic, anthropology or Catholic understanding of the human person as a part of their formation. Even my supervisee right now, she went to Franciscan. Nearly all had it, except me. Here I was, the guy that converted when I was at a secular institution.

Alex Wallace [00:22:37]:
And I've just been picking things up as I've gone. But praise God that I'm in a wonderful community that allows me to receive and then share back with the patients that we get to work with.

Pat Millea [00:22:47]:
That's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. 2 things. Number 1, just echoing the voice of your now bride and your pastor at the time. I think there's still a great need for good Catholic clinicians out there at least in the Twin Cities in Minnesota where we are, around the country, all the folks that we talked to. I don't know a lot of solid Catholic counselors or therapists who have lots of empty space on their calendar. You know? Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:23:12]:
So I know there's there's a lot of folks who are starting to kind of integrate those two realities a little bit more and and get into the field. But if you're listening, give us a call. Yes. Any of the 3 of us. The second thing is, you know, you kinda hinted at this with your own experience and and coming to faith and your own conversion story. So I guess from from your experience and from the work that you do clinically, what are some of the common existential questions that are at the heart of people's distress and even up to the the point of disorder? What are what are the things that you feel like you hear keep coming back to over and over again?

Alex Wallace [00:23:49]:
Yeah. That's a really good question. So I think when I pause just to give my heart space to to reflect, Oftentimes, there's, when people come to me for work, they're often struggling with a sense of who am I? Why am I here? Why am I what am I what am I experiencing right now? What what is going on in my life that I feel maybe out of control that feels foreign, alien, unknown to me, overwhelming, terrifying? And how do I navigate that? Do I have the power to navigate that? Is this normal or am I is this strange? Right? What's the purpose of of suffering? Why is it necessary, that I do this? And it's really interesting with us being parents. It provides me with this, like, sense of reflection where, you know, God is calling all of us to be childlike. Right. Not childish, childlike in this exploration of life, taking on the faith and believing in him, etcetera. But what is something that children do so beautifully well? Is they ask why. Right? So beautifully well.

Kenna Millea [00:25:06]:
Sometimes to the point of irritation, actually. Exactly.

Alex Wallace [00:25:09]:
Exactly. Fear. No shame. Right? And and it's that is something I think if we're real with ourselves, aren't we really just all children in these, like, grown up bodies really in our core? We're growing in wisdom and knowledge, but God desires for us to continue to ask why and and to wonder. And what I end up finding is that so many people that choose to invite me into their life as their clinician, when they come share with me, is that in their childlike hearts, they are overwhelmed with these childlike questions. Why? Why does this happen? Why do good things happen to bad people? What does it mean if I don't get through this? Are you there for me, God? Is somebody there for me or am I alone on this journey? So these are some of those really big existential questions that we as parents get the opportunity to look into the eyes of our children, look into their hearts, get to capture them in our arms, and share with them the as best we can, the answers that we've come to understand. What God has revealed to us, what our spiritual brothers and sisters have revealed to us, and to be there for them. But for so many of my patients, that's they don't know who to turn to.

Alex Wallace [00:26:30]:
They don't they don't know if they can feel confident within that decision. They don't know if they can feel confident with God, which is where I get to enter into, helping them explore some of these really paramount, you know, questions, huge questions, to to kinda answer what you were saying or looking for there.

Kenna Millea [00:26:49]:
I I think something that that is striking me about that is this idea of initiative, you know, that that God does the vulnerable thing first of reaching out to us first, of extending himself in in vulnerability. Right? Because because he doesn't he doesn't control how he is going to be received. He he continues to give us free will, and so whether we accept the kiss, whether we respond back in kind, he doesn't know. He doesn't have control over that. He doesn't get to write that for us. And so I'm really struck by, yeah, the beauty, of of his his love for us, his desire to be vulnerable for us, which is, yeah, the essence of who, you know, Jesus, God made man, the incarnation is is just incarnate vulnerability. But but yeah. And so I'm thinking, Alex, with, you know, from a clinical angle of, like, when we as humans have impediments to being vulnerable, like, when things happen to us that make it difficult for us to be vulnerable, to take those risks, it never it never stops being a risk.

Kenna Millea [00:28:09]:
I'll speak with my clients in couples therapy,

Alex Wallace [00:28:10]:
and I'll give examples

Kenna Millea [00:28:10]:
of things that happen in our marriage. Right? I'm like, last night, we were fighting. Pat and I, we had an argument, and they're like, no. And I'm like, no. Really? Like, no. For real. Like Impossible. I'm telling you the truth.

Pat Millea [00:28:23]:
And then she brings me in, and I have to verify the whole story and it's real.

Alex Wallace [00:28:27]:
Okay. That is not true.

Pat Millea [00:28:28]:
That is kidding. That's that would be deeply unethical and Kenna never does that.

Alex Wallace [00:28:32]:
But we thought about it.

Kenna Millea [00:28:38]:
I bring the example in and and so but to to share that vulnerability of, like, just because I sit here before you quote unquote having figured it out as a therapist, like, to to share that vulnerability to invite it in, but I just I think about when we when we lose that, that courage, those skills, the muscles to be vulnerable, I think that's where these questions start to really, yeah, be an impediment to relationship because I see I hear you proposing it as, like, this is an avenue for deeper connection with the Lord, and I'm thinking about the ways that it goes wrong, you know, where these these questions become, there is no God, he doesn't love me, he doesn't I am not good, I am not worthy. So can you speak to that, Alex, of of how do you help your clients to step into vulnerability when they have a lot of legitimate reasons to not, like, with themselves, with God, with others, like, there's a lot of reasons that that we're walking around in this world, this wounded world going, no. Like, it's not worth it. I can't do that.

Alex Wallace [00:29:49]:
It's a really good question. A few a few things come to mind. So when we were at that, on that panel together, I used an example from Lion King, that I hadn't honestly ever thought about before. And then we were preparing for the battle. I was, like, oh, that's a good example.

Kenna Millea [00:30:09]:
I know. I'll bring Simba.

Alex Wallace [00:30:11]:
I'll bring Simba. What up? And then I referred to him as a tiger.

Pat Millea [00:30:15]:
Oh, Alex. Oh, man. The ironic thing is there is a Tiger King, but it's a really bad example of whatever you're talking about. That is not the same.

Alex Wallace [00:30:27]:
Not the way. Oh my gosh.

Kenna Millea [00:30:30]:
Tiger King also in the show notes.

Alex Wallace [00:30:32]:
Yeah. No. Nope. Not today.

Pat Millea [00:30:35]:
There are some good existential questions there. They just don't have answers in Tiger King.

Alex Wallace [00:30:38]:
That's not the one. So from the story of Lion King, something that was really profound was he had a had a pretty significant moment in his life. Right? And it's when his dad died very early. And so then he had to work through the experience of of the death of his father who wasn't an insignificant person. I mean, to anyone, our fathers and our mothers are significant to us. Right? Extremely significant. Like, let me underline profoundly significant. Like, if you're a father, you're a mother, and you're listening to this podcast today, you gosh.

Alex Wallace [00:31:17]:
The importance that you have in the life of your children goes beyond any any decision that you ever do about, like, how you're gonna how you're gonna raise your children and and what schools you're gonna enroll them to. Like, you are a vehicle of of love for them. You are the first examplars of of what love looks like of patience, of giftness, of reflecting giftness, of reconciliation, of saying you're sorry when you mess up. Like, I, yeah, I just love parenthood, and I think sometimes we get lost in the in the struggle of, like, what's the right way to be perfect at it. And, and it's, like, through your brokenness that you're like, the glory will shine when you enter into this really, this focus of who can I really be for this child? And I can be open arms and an open heart and a and a face for them to register and reflect. Right? So just like a small aside. So so here, you know, Simba loses his father. And his father was also the the leader of that tribe, right, the leader of that pack.

Alex Wallace [00:32:22]:
And seemed like basically, right, was kinda the leader of the entire animal kingdom. So then, imagine such a substantial loss, and we've all experienced suffering at some point in our journey. Maybe not that. We haven't maybe haven't lost a parent, but we've faced some type of setback. Some of us maybe more so than others. Some of us who have been hurt by the people that we should feel most comfortable being around, whether that be our parents, siblings, whether that be a priest. Right? A teacher, a coach, somebody who was supposed to be there to protect us and save us. And so then being vulnerable is now, potentially risky situation.

Alex Wallace [00:33:09]:
Right. So here's Simba trying to navigate. Who do I turn to now that my dad is dead? My mom's around. I've got these other people. Okay. And he starts, you know, meandering through life. But it was in the encounter they had with, oh, gosh, Mufasa. No.

Alex Wallace [00:33:26]:
Was it Mufasa? Was that the monkey's name?

Kenna Millea [00:33:28]:
That's Rafiki. No.

Alex Wallace [00:33:29]:
Mufasa. Rafiki. Rafiki. Mufasa. Yep. But here's yes. Mufasa's his dad. Rafiki.

Alex Wallace [00:33:34]:
And Rafiki says to him, you don't even know who you are. Right? And it was this moment where he drew him back to the water, and he looked in the water and he saw the reflect his reflection, but that reflection changed to the reflection of his father. And then he looked into the skies and he had this encounter with his father. Right? That it was the spiritual transcendent encounter where his father was speaking to him in his heart about these existential things. Who are you really? Right? And he gave him this solid reset that felt true to the core of who who Simba was. And it was from that point forward that it wasn't suffering was abated. He had to continue to face suffering. He had to face the person that killed his father.

Alex Wallace [00:34:15]:
He had to face all these other all these other creatures, right, in this challenge of leading this group now. No pressure. Tons of pressure. And so I look to this example to answer your question. Like, how do people who find vulnerability to be scary or to be right back at the doorstep of abuse or struggle maybe they've encountered before? And how do we help them? How do we help ourselves sometimes to encounter vulnerability the love that the father has for us? And what the story I think shows to me is, like, first, it's really hard to do in isolation. In fact, it might be impossible, because we are made for community. We are made for love. We are made for connection with others.

Alex Wallace [00:35:06]:
And so when this is the this is the, you know, beauty of the work that we get to do as clinicians is we get to create a space in this first movement of somebody who may be coming face to face with the fact that for so long vulnerability was a risk or it was scary or it was hard. So I'm gonna navigate all my problems on my own. I'm going to I'm gonna deal with everything by myself. I'm gonna look to the self help books. I'm gonna do the new diet trends. I'm gonna go to the gym and I'm gonna exercise. I'm a look at myself in the mirror. I'm gonna feel proud.

Alex Wallace [00:35:42]:
I'm gonna buy these things, etcetera, but there's an emptiness. There's a loneliness because no, like, no thing that we do like that can really scratch at our communal needs. Right? That that longing to be in existence. Are you there for me? But if that is a risk to be vulnerable, the beauty of being a therapist is I get to be one of those first people that gets to receive someone that says, you know, I was navigating things decently well on my own, but now I'm coming face to the face face to face with the fact that my symptoms, my anxiety, my depression, they're not going away. They're getting louder. My loneliness, my depression, my suicidal thoughts, they're getting louder. Something is out of order here. And my symptoms now, and this has been really helpful for me.

Alex Wallace [00:36:32]:
They used to be really helpful. Right? Like because if I got anxious, I would over prepare for school then I get an A and then somebody wouldn't reject me. Teacher wouldn't reject me, Or whatever it was. Right? But now my symptoms are my failed attempts at at solving the true problem that is existing in my heart. Right. My symptoms are now the failed attempts at solving the problem that is existing in my heart. My addiction used to be a fine thing, but now it's it's it's running out. Its course is is we've run the race and we know where that's gonna go.

Alex Wallace [00:37:06]:
And it's either death or nothing. And so someone comes to me and said, help me. Right? Like, I I don't know what else to do. Is it another skills and another tool that I need to do? But it's really in community with me that they start to see, wow. Okay. This is something I've been looking for all of my days. And so I take that that approach really significantly, and I take it nice and slow and gently and help them to come to see that they are normal. That the things that they're struggling with make sense.

Alex Wallace [00:37:33]:
That they're not weird and alien, but they're another they're my brother or my sister, that they that what they are experiencing, these questions, we all experience. And it's through this connection and through reflecting on that and owning, like, gosh, I'm not as crazy as I think. I'm more normal than I realize. That for me, then they start feeling this stronger sense of, like, I can be vulnerable. Because I can be vulnerable with this guy, and I I it feels pretty good. Right? It feels really good to be connected. It feels good that somebody entered into the passion with me. And then I get to help them say, okay.

Alex Wallace [00:38:12]:
Now, who can I be like that with in my life outside of here? Maybe I need to tell my boss to get off my case and go be assertive. Maybe I need to think about trying to establish a relationship with someone I'm looking to date or growing. Maybe it's coming back to the Lord and going back to church and saying, Lord, I've been scared up until this point because I was wondering where you were and why you didn't protect me. And now they have the courage of having me behind them, supporting them that they can come and and and reflect on these things with, just like a good parent gets to be there for their child. I am not a parent, but I'm a type of attachment figure that helps them to grow and do courageous things to be vulnerable once again and to enter slowly. And so when you ask that question, again, all these things are coming up, but it's like vulnerability. Holding that vulnerability in is is really just trying to protect myself from wounds, but eventually, the suffering becomes so much that we realize there's gotta be another way. And it's when those courageous patients come to us, patients or counselors, and they're willing to ask for help that we get that opportunity to say, yeah, you're right.

Alex Wallace [00:39:20]:
Yeah. You're right. You are looking for something more, and and I'm here and excited to walk with you on this journey to find it. It's gonna be scary. You might have to find the face the person that killed your father. Right. You might have to face these navigation, these sufferings, these problems. But that's okay.

Alex Wallace [00:39:38]:
You don't have to be alone nor should you be alone as you're going on this journey.

Pat Millea [00:39:43]:
And not to turn this into a Lion King movie review, but I love that metaphor for even more reasons because it strikes me, you know, as you talk, Alex, about the the necessity of community, John Paul II in, I think it was in some of the Theology of the Body audiences or something. He said that man cannot understand himself so much in solitude. He's not so much fulfilled in solitude, but in the moment of communion that we don't we're not actually ourselves unless we are connected to other people. Right? So the the version of invulnerability, the, like, the the defense that Simba puts off is Hakuna Matata. Right? Just, like, don't think about it. Don't worry about it. I I told Ken the other day about a meme where, Simba goes, to, Pumba and Timon, the warthog and the meerkat. Right? And Simba says, man, my dad died and I'm pretty sure it's my fault.

Pat Millea [00:40:38]:
And the response from those 2 is, oh, is that right? Have you tried I don't know. Just effing getting over it. Just don't don't effing think about it. Like Yeah. Which, like, unfortunately, is effective for a while. Right? I mean, like or it can be. Absolutely. Like shutting out that reality, ignoring the past, ignoring my shame, like, that can help me function in the short term.

Pat Millea [00:41:06]:
Yeah. But it will always catch up with me. And like you said, like, the the well will run dry in time. And it's funny even in a movie that, like, his past catches up with him literally because his little girlfriend, Nala, comes and finds him because they're starving back in his homeland. Right? So, like, his his past has never gone away. It will never go away. And if you don't, deal with it, it's gonna deal with you eventually. Right? So, like, that that image I think is really fascinating and beautiful.

Pat Millea [00:41:37]:
So we, you know, we if Disney would like to sponsor us, they probably wouldn't like all the things we have to say, but we can take the money. That'd be fine. Oh, there you go. I was not selling out. No. I just, so but what I I guess what that makes me think of Alex is, like, if if you, you know, that the the double edged sword of of Catholic counseling. Right? I think a lot of people sometimes have questions, both from the secular world and from people within the church itself. Questions about, like, how does that relationship function practically.

Pat Millea [00:42:10]:
Right? I mean, you guys can both attest to the fact that you are not in some kind of a a evangelization role in your work. You're not trying to create Catholics or to to, you know, preach theological truths in your sessions, but to to encourage and to support people in finding health and truth and community in the ways that that make sense in their circumstances. Right? So for you, Alex, in your work, what how do you bring those together? How do you bring your Catholic faith to bear in your sessions? How are you bringing psychological truths in as well? What what does that balance look like for you?

Alex Wallace [00:42:48]:
That's a really good question. And that's something I really love again about being a part of a team because we get to balance this question off of each other. We're actually actively exploring it together, at our institute, at Ruah Woods Institute, to come to better understand what we present on an obvious way and then like a, a way that I've been formed in my mind. Right. And what I'm bringing and things that we don't necessarily see. You know, because it can play out everything from so here's I've I've got a picture of Saint Joseph, a really beautiful image of him. Over here, there's an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe. There's all of these beautiful, sacramentals and icons and things that reflect, the true beauty of the experience, of being made in the image and likeness of God, being one in communion with him, the communion of saints, all of these beautiful things that can kind of set up the vibe.

Alex Wallace [00:43:36]:
And and integrating things like prayer or, scripture homework for some of our patients, they really really love, to do because it it it helps in so many ways. But also, what I end up looking at is, first, the types of therapy that we utilize, how I view my patient, how I view my role within their work. I mean, you said, we don't really evangelize. But when you kinda look at the experience of being a a therapist who continues to exude love and welcome, and a sense of belonging and compassion and care, and you communicate that through your eyes, through your body, through your your disposition, through the the questions, the pacing, asking the questions that nobody asks, usually in life because we care, so much. Right? Like, so many clinicians, like, you could you could do you could be a Catholic therapist, but some of it really comes in how you present and hold that space. Right. And when you have a a sense of the human person and the journey and these existential things that we're navigating and our relationship with God and you're holding these things and you've been formed personally, and you know these things to be true. And so when you ask these questions and they give you the courage to ask sometimes the uncomfortable question, like, I noticed that like, my supervisee has been loving one right now.

Alex Wallace [00:45:17]:
Like, I noticed that you're not able to like like, that your eyes are kind of all over the place right now. Right? Like, I I wonder wonder what might be going on for you as as as that's happening and someone's been revealing to them a sense of shame or guilt, and then they share that. They take that vulnerable step to, like, look up and share. I'm just kinda feeling filled with shame. And then we as clinicians, we get to capture that. We get to hold them, you know. We get to hold that moment with them. And so, like, I know you sense the shame and I'm with you.

Alex Wallace [00:45:49]:
I'm right here with you. And I'm so proud of you for being courageous. And we get to invite them to reflect that. Like, that's evangelization. Right? Like, it's not it's not the bible thumping evangelization, but it's the deep heart felt love evangelization that we get to enter into this role to be an extension of the love of the father and and all that we we do. And that's before I became before I came to Ruah Woods, I was more of like a cognitive behavioral therapist. So thoughts, feelings, and actions, and and you would kind of, you know, pick a goal, target trajectory, something you want to live out in your life, and you would find out the the thoughts and things that are are aligning you with that and the ones that might not be, and how to navigate the emotions, and what are the things, when I think I need to be vulnerable I start to feel anxious, but I need to be vulnerable so I try to breathe and calm myself down so I can then turn that space. I love that.

Alex Wallace [00:46:41]:
When I came to Ruah Woods, I was introduced to emotionally focused therapy. And I, I love it. I love it for couples work. It's the most evidence based, clinical approach that we know of today. But I also have been, stepping out of EFT and into, like, emotionally focused individual therapy. So I bring this into the work that I do with individuals as well. And, just find that we as people are so relational that I've given this opportunity to enter in and hold the space and and to help somebody you're talking about, like, vulnerability. You can kind of make that an outside thing, but being vulnerable with me is no easy task.

Alex Wallace [00:47:23]:
And when I see help them to see the fruit in that, and what they experience in feeling human and being known and feeling safe, the vulnerability, goes up and the sense of needing to protect myself goes down naturally within that space. But all of that is because that's exactly what Jesus has done for us. Mhmm. Right? We were struggling to figure it out for so long for so many years, and Jesus was like, alright. I'm coming down there. I'm gonna come. I'm gonna pierce time in space. I'm gonna be a little baby.

Alex Wallace [00:47:53]:
I'm gonna grow up amidst you. And I'm gonna reveal my Sacred Heart to you. And I'm gonna show you how much I love you. And then when I die and I come back and all of the closest people are huddled in this room together and they're so scared, rather than coming back with a vengeance, like, where were you? He says, peace be with you. Right? And this sense of forgiveness continues to prevail in the sense of love and connectedness and, like, you matter. So I could go on and on about this topic, but all of that is happening within my office, within the small movements of the work that we're doing. And so many times, that's exactly what patients are coming with.

Pat Millea [00:48:29]:
Mhmm.

Alex Wallace [00:48:29]:
It's a sense of I'm alone, and I'm overwhelmed and terrified with this problem that's happening and I need help, navigating through it. And I just can't do it by myself anymore.

Pat Millea [00:48:40]:
Yeah. And it makes sense to me that, you know, there's there's, like, a few generations now history, I think, of of a world and a culture, maybe particularly in the west, but probably worldwide that seems to be distancing itself from God in lots of implicit but also very explicit ways, you know, that the 20th century was the the bloodiest most violent century in human history. As we turn to the 21st century, we've just got it seems like a host just this panoply of identity questions that are plaguing humanity and maybe especially in the United States, it seems like. And, you know, in in the United States, we've got a surgeon general who's been warning us for a decade now about the dangers of isolation, about the epidemic of isolation and loneliness and the the mental and even physical toll that it takes on individuals. There's so many ways that see that that things seem to be getting worse individually, culturally, and it has always made sense to me that it's rooted in some of these existential questions that you're talking about. You know, the one of the, kind of truths that we have, gained from priest friends of ours from the Institute of Priestly Formation is this relationship identity mission movement. Right? Yeah. If I don't have an an an understanding of relationship with God the father, I will not have a sense of my identity.

Pat Millea [00:50:08]:
And then I don't know what my purpose is. I can't know my mission if I don't have a sense of who I am that's rooted in in the Lord. So it it makes perfect sense to me that there is such a great need and I think such a great burgeoning opportunity for people like you and Kenna to to step into that space and to to meet people where they feel like they're most in need. That it's not anymore about, like, oh, I don't like my job. It's like, does my life matter? You know, just like and getting it to the limit, you get people in a really nihilistic space. Right? Like, I don't matter. Nothing matters. We don't matter.

Pat Millea [00:50:48]:
Just this deeply untrue, deeply, you know, kind of probably clinically depressed anxious place that that's rooted in a lack of connection to the God who sustains us all along. You know? So it's a long way of saying I'm really grateful for what both of you do. So, Alex, as we, you know, we're we're gonna start, helping people move into some of this, direction on their own, whether or not someone is in a counseling or therapy relationship with somebody, what what's a challenge by choice that you might offer to somebody listening right now who is identifying some of these deeper existential questions in them? What's what's a step that they might take to move toward better grounding?

Alex Wallace [00:51:32]:
Yeah. The the thing that came up for me when I was taking some time to think about this was, how easy it is to not look at these questions and all of the different resources that we have, social media, technology, food or, like cheap food that we can eat to, like, stuff our feelings and make it all cloudy. And so I think it's really in taking time to I was gonna say journal. Journal's always this clinical thing. Right? I'm, like, go home and journal and really think about it. And I really love to do journaling. But to give, like, a format to that, what came up for me was, like, the Jesuit Examen. So to take time at the end of your day, maybe in the middle of your day too if you want.

Alex Wallace [00:52:19]:
But, really, if you haven't done this before, taking time at the end of your day just to first pause and give yourself a chance to reflect. Give yourself a space that is comfortable, a space that is calm, a space that is sacred. Maybe you light a candle, you you turn down the lights. You let yourself sit for a minute because you want to take a moment to take a step back and get ready to reflect on your day. So often, we're just doing doing doing. And when you get a chance to stop and think, we give we give glory to God. We give thanks to him just just like, before we started this recording you you know you led us Pat with a prayer of thanksgiving for all of these beautiful things that God gives us and just stop thank him for the precious moment and then pray pray and have this moment to ask God to come to understand, you know, your life through his eyes, review your day, go through those little moments, the moments where you did really great, really proud of yourself, and, like, pause and actually let yourself be proud of an accomplishment, something that you did, proud of yourself, not because you received praise as much, but because you did that nice thing that maybe nobody else saw, or you got a chance to receive the love of your child in such a beautiful way or the love of your spouse in such a beautiful way. Also, to come to understand the instances where maybe you did something that you wish that you didn't do.

Alex Wallace [00:53:47]:
And what came up in that moment? Oh, I got really angry. Why? I I heard a loud noise and I just that's what I do. But, like, but why? What happened in that moment? What do you wish you would have done different? What does that moment kind of share? What was a chance that I could have reached but I decided not to instead of pushed away? And to come and look at those moments and and and get get a sense of like what you could do better and then close close this time of reflection by asking God to give you the grace to act in those moments. To listen to your heart and your conscience that's dRuahing you out to act in love to listen to the invitation of God that says step on the waters. Right? Go to the place that I know you're scared of and I know that you've been hurt in the past but I just want you to look in my eyes and trust me because it's going to be worth it. And then, when you have this chance to pray for it before time, it's really interesting to see because when you show up tomorrow, God shows up too. He's already there. He's already beckoning you out and not being another oppressive voice that says you're only gonna be bad.

Alex Wallace [00:54:51]:
You're never gonna earn my love. Get out here if you wanna even Are you gonna trust me or not? No. That's not the love of the Father. That's not the love of Jesus. He's asking you out in those moments. And so to prepare your heart for that moment, he's going to show you that love. And then in an even deeper way, you can be thankful in your examine the next day where you did reach and he reached back, he was already there for you. And to let that write a beautiful narrative in your heart, that your heart already knows, but your mind is still trying to catch up to.

Pat Millea [00:55:23]:
Mhmm. It makes me think of that that encouragement to to go through and examine, to really reflect, to be present, to to be mindful and intentional about the course of our day just in the quiet of our hearts and the place where only God is, Blaise Pascal, 400 years ago, right, well before social media or any of the stuff that we're quick to blame today, said all of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. That it's it's the rejection of reflection. That's a great phrase. I just have that. I was really I I didn't mean to do that. It rhymed on accident.

Kenna Millea [00:56:03]:
Trademark it, babe.

Alex Wallace [00:56:05]:
Is that on the t shirt?

Pat Millea [00:56:06]:
Yeah. Exactly. But it's like the it it's so much easier to to in the in the meantime, at least, in the short term, it's easier to not think about deep things Yeah. That I can distract myself any number of different ways. So that's a really that's no small task that you're proposing, Alex, but it's it's one of the more significant habits that I think that somebody can get into.

Alex Wallace [00:56:28]:
Mhmm. Thank you.

Pat Millea [00:56:30]:
Kenna Rae, any closing thoughts from, our resident Catholic therapist?

Kenna Millea [00:56:34]:
Yeah. Just that that I feel deeply grateful, Alex, that you have shown up with such authenticity and have shared the father's loving merciful heart with us. I mean, just in the way you speak about your family, and your marriage, and the way you talk about how you receive your patients, like, it's just really evident, that that he is so very real to you, and and that he is the center of your life. And so, you know, we are here on this podcast to encourage our listening community towards sanity and sanctity, and and one of the ways we do that is bringing them into connection with people who really are living this out, people that we've met that we're like, no. This is the real deal. Like, this is possible, and this person gives us such encouragement. So thank you. I'm wondering, Alex, if our listeners do wanna be connected to you, particularly those in Ohio and Indiana, What's the best way, to connect with you?

Alex Wallace [00:57:35]:
Yeah. That's a great question. So you can Google Ruah Woods Institute or Ruah Woods Psychological Services, to get more information about the institute as a whole. Ruah Woods Psychological Services is only one leg of the institute. The other leg, which is really cool, is a k through 12, curriculum for Theology of the Body. And, it is is just growing in popularity as as children, all around the nation are encountering who they are at a very vulnerable formative stage. It's really neat. So look into the institute or or Google the Psychological Services.

Alex Wallace [00:58:13]:
You can call us at 513-407-8878. There's a bunch of different ways that you can reach out. You could reach out to, you know, you guys, and you probably send them my way, which is really great too. But yeah. And even if even if being a therapist for you is not a possibility, because I only provide services to people that are in Ohio or Indiana, and you've really appreciated hearing what we've shared today. Feel free to reach out to any of us. We'd love to you with maybe a therapist that's close to you. We could get you connected with another teletherapist who could cover that area.

Alex Wallace [00:58:47]:
Like, you are not to do you are not meant to navigate this journey alone. And so even if I can't myself provide you a services, I would love to give you a warm hand off to someone, who can.

Pat Millea [00:59:00]:
And we'll put all these links in the description in the show notes, obviously. But in case you are wondering what the heck he is saying, r u a h is Ruah Woods, The the the Hebrew for spirit and and wind and all the things that, came up in Genesis. So r u a h Woods Institute and check out the links below as well. Can we pray to wrap up and send each of us and our good listeners off on a good note? Let's do it. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Jesus, you are the truth. You are the life.

Pat Millea [00:59:37]:
You are the way for each of us, and you have made us for yourselves. Lord, there are so many questions that each of us wrestle with, big and small. But in the deepest corners of our hearts, we have big questions that require big answers from you. So we pray for the courage to to face those questions, to engage them in community with the people that you've placed in our path to journey with us, and, to never rest until we find the answers to those questions in your heart. We pray for all those who are listening today, who are struggling the most with a sense of their worth, a sense of their identity, a sense of their standing in this world that you've created. We pray for, for the consolation that can only come from you, from a deeper relationship with you and a greater sense of their own value, as a consequence. Lord, pray for be be with each of us. Be with us in our work.

Pat Millea [01:00:42]:
Be with all those listening, and help us to serve you faithfully more and more every day, Lord. We pray all this in your name, Jesus. Amen. Amen. In the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Alex Wallace, God bless you, brother. Thank you so much for being with us.

Pat Millea [01:00:59]:
We look forward to, crossing paths again very soon.

Alex Wallace [01:01:02]:
Awesome. Thank you guys again for having me.

Pat Millea [01:01:05]:
You are very welcome. Thank you. Friends listening, if you would like to keep up this conversation, you can connect with Kenna or I. You can connect with Alex, by going to thiswholelifepodcast.com. You can check us out on Instagram or Facebook @thiswholelifepodcast as well. And if you wanna send us a note about whatever existential question is on your heart, we would love to know what you're, what you're dealing with, what you're maybe struggling with, and the ways that you're getting really good answers to your good questions. Friends, God bless you. You're in our prayers like always, and we will see you next time.

Kenna Millea [01:01:41]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Alex Wallace [01:02:00]:
Yeah. I was like, what's our website? I can't remember. Just Google it.

Kenna Millea [01:02:05]:
I mean, nobody needs to know websites anymore because you can just Google it.

Pat Millea [01:02:09]:
Right. Just Google it.