Ep65 Grief & Glory Through Infertility

"If in spite of everything God does not give them children, they should not regard themselves as being thwarted. They should be happy, discovering in this very fact God's will for them. ... There is, then, no reason for feeling they are failures or for giving way to sadness."
~ St. Josemaría Escrivá

Is God present in infertility?
How do I deal with the sadness & anger of losing a dream?
When I feel like I don't fit in, what do I do?

In this profoundly moving episode of This Whole Life, Kenna and Pat delve into the delicate and deep topic of infertility. They engage in heartfelt conversations with three couples who each share their unique and intimate journeys through infertility. Through candid stories of struggle, hope, and healing, the couples reveal how their experiences have shaped their relationships with one another and with God, how they navigate cultural expectations, and how they have developed emotional and mental resilience. This compelling episode sheds light on the realities of infertility, offering insights into how these couples have found support and love amidst their trials. Whether journeying through infertility or seeking to support those who are, you will discover profound lessons about life, love, and the reality of redemption in the midst of suffering.

Episode 65 Show Notes

Chapters:
0:00: Three couples' journey of infertility
13:50: How has infertility impacted your marriage?
18:13: How has infertility impacted your relationship with God?
23:28: How has this journey affected your emotions & mental health along the way?
36:17: Where have you found the most support & care?
43:28: What have you learned about life and love?
48:08: Witnessing generosity & openness up close

Reflection Questions:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. What is your experience with infertility, in your own life or in a loved one?
3. What is one time that a dream was lost? What did you feel, and how did you respond?
4. What are some of the expectations put upon you by the culture or those in the Church? What do you do when you don't fit those expectations?
5. How can you love & support those living with infertility? If you experience infertility, what do you need from others?

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

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Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Three couples' journey of infertility
• 13:50 How has infertility impacted your marriage?
• 18:13 How has infertility impacted your relationship with God?
• 23:28 How has this journey affected your emotions & mental health along the way?
• 36:17 Where have you found the most support & care?
• 43:28 What have you learned about life and love?
• 48:08 Witnessing generosity & openness up close

Transcript

Teresa [00:00:00]:
The Lord's plan for me is also good and beautiful. And if it's different, I can recognize the differences and the abundance rather than, like, the lack of what's different and what's missing from one to the other. That's been really beautiful, and I'm really grateful for that.

Pat Millea [00:00:24]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader. And I'm here with my bride, Kenna, a licensed marriage and family therapist. This is the stuff she and I talk about all the time, doing dishes in the car on a date. We're excited to bring you this podcast for educational purposes. It's not therapy or a substitute for mental health care. So come on in. Have a seat at our dining room table and join the conversation with us.

Pat Millea [00:01:00]:
We are so glad you're here.

Kenna Millea [00:01:16]:
Welcome back to This Whole Life. It is so great to be with you listeners. So good to be with you, my love.

Pat Millea [00:01:21]:
So good to be with you.

Kenna Millea [00:01:23]:
And, for this particularly special episode, I think this is a profoundly beautiful episode that you have been working hard to put together, and been, yeah, just so prayerfully assembling for all of us to hear.

Pat Millea [00:01:37]:
This episode, I think, fits really well in the seeking of wholeness and holiness that we are seeking at This Whole Life. And, today in this episode, we're talking to 3 different couples who have dealt with struggles around infertility in their marriage in some way. As you know, we've been working on this for 8 months or so. It's been a long process, but it's been such a beautiful process. This is maybe one of my favorite episodes. I know you're not supposed to pick favorite children, but I love this episode in a particular way. And as you know, my bride, it was one that I was really worried about. And I just I I felt anxious about in talking to these couples because in retrospect, I think I didn't give them enough credit of being able to be healed and mature and joyful enough in their journey of suffering and healing to get to a place where they're willing to talk about it openly.

Pat Millea [00:02:30]:
I I was concerned that I'd have to kind of walk on eggshells. I didn't want to say the wrong thing, you know, and especially for you and I. I mean, we have been blessed unspeakably with 7 biological children. I just know that this is tender Yeah. And very sacred territory

Kenna Millea [00:02:44]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:02:45]:
To step on.

Kenna Millea [00:02:46]:
Absolutely.

Pat Millea [00:02:46]:
And, I I just can't tell you how beautiful and encouraging and hopeful it was to be able to to have conversations with these couples about some of the darkest moments of their lives and what they've done with that. And and this is not a downer of an episode, I firmly believe, because they've all responded in beautifully joyful ways. Some have chosen and and discerned adoption in their family, others have not and are pouring themselves out in ministry and self gift to others, but they're both just living the life of faith so joyfully, so beautifully in in the wake of of going through a really trying time together.

Kenna Millea [00:03:24]:
Well, and I know, Pat, that as you were editing, you were just remarking to me over and over again as you listened to the the recordings. Like, my gosh, kinda, I am learning so much from them. Like, this is about more than just infertility. And so, I'm excited, to share this with you, our listening community, because, first of all, we all know someone who is experiencing infertility. The statistics tell us, that there are people, whether whether they make themselves known or not, who are carrying this cross and especially for us as Catholics wherein the Church calls us to natural conception, that that is that is a piece of the burden in this technological age, to remain faithful to what the Church calls us to and to see that beauty. And so I just I'm ready to learn from them and to learn from their openness, their deep faith, and their radical surrender to the Lord's will in their lives.

Pat Millea [00:04:17]:
Let's get into it. It's gonna

Pat Millea [00:04:18]:
be great. So, this format for this episode listeners is gonna be a little bit different than usual. What we're gonna do is we're gonna kind of lump their interviews into a few different sections based on the things that

Pat Millea [00:04:29]:
we asked them, things that I was able to ask them in our conversations. So you'll hear a few different responses to each question, each topic that we bring up. We'll tee up the topic so you know kind of what their responses are gonna be about. And, you may not necessarily be able to tell which couple is speaking at which time. That's okay. You'll be able to recognize different voices, but we hope that you can just receive this as a great gift of grace of what, they have to offer for you and their wisdom. The first voices that you'll hear are from Zach and Teresa. Zach and Teresa are a married couple who live and do ministry within a covenant Christian community here in the Twin Cities of Minnesota.

Pat Millea [00:05:10]:
And the first thing we asked a lot of these couples is just for their story. How how did you first become aware that you might have trouble conceiving in your marriage? Here's Zach and Teresa.

Zach [00:05:22]:
I mean, for me, it was always something that was a possibility.

Teresa [00:05:25]:
Mhmm.

Zach [00:05:26]:
As just growing up, there was always a question mark on whether or not that was gonna be a reality. Sure. So coming into marriage, that was even a conversation that you and I had before Yeah. We got engaged. Mhmm. Was, like, are you because this could be a a very real possibility for me is, like, are you gonna are we gonna be okay if, like, kids aren't a part of our of our marriage, especially not our own our own children. And so that was a good conversation. I know Teresa too.

Teresa [00:05:54]:
I have similar I said I had Lyme's disease

Pat Millea [00:05:57]:
Right.

Teresa [00:05:57]:
And had all kinds of health stuff coming out of high school into my early adulthood. So that was we both came into that being like, oh, I might have problems. You might have. Like, it was very much a, we don't know.

Zach [00:06:11]:
Yeah.

Teresa [00:06:13]:
Figure it out together, I guess.

Zach [00:06:14]:
Yeah. And so it was good, and there was a lot of trust in the Lord and in one another in our early relationship, to just kinda dive in and say, like, well, I love you, and I'm willing to kinda figure it out as we go, and the Lord's got a plan. So for the first, like, year or so of our relationship, I was coming off of making $8 an hour working part time. So we're like, we should probably wait on on kids.

Teresa [00:06:43]:
Because we were both in ministry

Zach [00:06:45]:
Yeah. Right.

Teresa [00:06:45]:
While we were dating and engaged and

Zach [00:06:47]:
Mhmm. Yeah. And so I started making a little bit more money, gotten to a little bit more of a secure place. And so then in our kinda second year, of marriage, we're like, alright. Let's let's start trying let's start trying for for a family. Let's start trying for kids, which was good. And but it was pretty clear. It was like, okay.

Zach [00:07:07]:
What's going on? And there's, you know, obviously the challenge of, like, okay. Get the, you know, the pregnancy test out. Get the ClearView. Ah, okay. We're negative. Alright. Let's try again next month. You know? Yeah.

Zach [00:07:16]:
Kind of thing. And for the first, like, 3 or 4 months, it was kinda like, yeah, nothing. Okay. Great. Let's try again. But then after about a year of pretty actively trying, it was kinda like, Okay. We're striking out a lot. And we had never gone after testing up till that point, so we didn't have very conclusive answers on what was going on.

Zach [00:07:41]:
Mhmm. There's always signs that are, like, pointing to one thing, and then you get confused because you're, like, reading into stuff too much. And so we we started to get Teresa tested, I don't know, like, year 2, year 3.

Pat Millea [00:07:55]:
Yeah.

Zach [00:07:56]:
Somewhere in there.

Teresa [00:07:57]:
Mhmm. Which through that process realized that I had gotten Lyme disease disease again.

Pat Millea [00:08:02]:
Oh, no kidding.

Teresa [00:08:03]:
So then stopped that in order for me to get go through recovery and antibiotics and treatment and stuff like that as through that. So it was kind of this reset again of, okay. We're 3 years into marriage. We're trying to get pregnant, but we need to pause and get this under control first. Mhmm. So that took up, like, the next year.

Zach [00:08:23]:
It was about it was about 8 months of, like, lot okay. We just gotta wait at this point. Sure.

Teresa [00:08:29]:
Put it on pause. Mhmm.

Zach [00:08:30]:
But we were really restless

Teresa [00:08:32]:
Yeah.

Zach [00:08:32]:
Because we really want we really wanted answers. And it was, like, okay. What's the what's the direction? What's the result? Are we just waiting? If we can't, then we don't have to wait anymore and we can just kinda transition and look at other options. Do we just wait forever until Teresa gets, her Lyme disease kinda under control and not as impactful? And so we had that conversation for a couple months on what was the next step. So then we just got me tested.

Pat Millea [00:09:03]:
Okay.

Teresa [00:09:03]:
Kinda while we were waiting on me.

Zach [00:09:04]:
Yeah. I was just like, well, let's just go get yeah. Because I'm a question mark too. And so we got our test results back. This was right around Thanksgiving, and the doctor called and was like, yeah. You guys got no shot. Oh, wow. There was, you know, there was no, like, well, if we try this and go this direction, you could maybe do something.

Zach [00:09:22]:
It was like, the doctor was like, I'm so sorry.

Pat Millea [00:09:25]:
So just based on your results alone?

Zach [00:09:27]:
Just my results. It was like nope.

Pat Millea [00:09:28]:
Just. Not gonna happen naturally.

Zach [00:09:30]:
Not gonna happen. And so it was kinda like, oh, that's crazy.

Pat Millea [00:09:36]:
Wow.

Zach [00:09:37]:
Yeah. The doctor was like, yeah. Give us a call or like, it was just like, so sorry. Mhmm. See you later. Mhmm. So it was pretty tough. And so there was kinda there was a couple months, Our our immediate right when we heard the news was like, okay.

Zach [00:09:52]:
We can't make any drastic life changes Sure. For the next year. So we can, like, get through this and not, like, bring, like, 12 foster kids into our, like, tumultuous,

Zach [00:10:04]:
like, trying

Zach [00:10:05]:
to get over.

Teresa [00:10:06]:
Which I think was a really beautiful gift that we gave ourselves. It was just okay for the next year, we're just gonna create space to process this, to grieve the life that we thought we were gonna have. Yeah. To talk through it, to have conversations, and just, like, be for a little bit instead of, like, okay. What's the next thing? Let's push push push.

Teresa [00:10:24]:
But I'm just

Teresa [00:10:25]:
like, okay. We don't want this to, like, come up in a weird way later on in our life, in our marriage. So let's just actually take time to, like, grieve it properly. Because there was it was a real loss of our future, in the way that we expected and the way that we were hoping for. So I think that was such a gift and such a good decision. I mean, like, I'm not gonna make anything. I'm not gonna change our life. We're just gonna keep doing what the Lord doing what we are doing and where the Lord has placed us right now.

Kenna Millea [00:10:56]:
Steve and Annie have been married for 20 years, and Steve is a firefighter. Annie's a nurse, and they have adopted 3 beautiful children, and were willing to share a bit of their story, their journey with infertility with us.

Steve [00:11:10]:
I have a autoimmune disease. Mhmm. And so knowing some of my back history of some of the medications and stuff that they had to put me on, basically, some life saving meds.

Lori [00:11:20]:
Mhmm. As a child.

Steve [00:11:22]:
As a child from basically years of, like, 1a half through, like, 10, some of the meds might have caused infertility in me when we weren't ever sure. So that was something in the back of our minds right away.

Annie [00:11:40]:
Something we talked about from the beginning knowing that we had no idea, but that was a chance. They had always told his parents there is a chance that these medications could affect his fertility down the line. Going back to your first question. Yeah. I think when we got married so his sister got married exactly a year before us. And he's very close Steve's very close to his sister. They've always had an amazing relationship. I love her.

Annie [00:12:07]:
We've grown very close. That there was just kind of this, like, assumption in me that we would follow their pattern. You know? We decided we would be open to life from the very beginning. They got married in July, and our nephew Nate was born the next May. Like, they had a baby right away. When we got married a year later, they had a 4 month old because they'd had a baby 9 months after their wedding kinda thing. So I just presumed I think assumed that would be us. That even though I was terrified to have kids so young because I worried, were we ready? Were would we be okay? Would we be fine financially? I just assumed that's what would happen, and we'd figure it out.

Annie [00:12:47]:
And then it didn't happen, and it didn't happen, and it didn't happen. Through this whole time, knowing that Steve had had these medications as a kid that could affect his infertility, I had always wondered if I had some endometriosis going on, but it was something that I'd never pursued. I just dealt with on my own, dealt with kind of the pain and the physical ramifications of it. Because growing up, a, I didn't really know this was a thing I should get checked out, and, b, I was too scared to say that maybe I should get this checked out. So as we went on, time went on, and nothing was happening. And we were never pregnant and never ever even thinking maybe we were, that we started to go through some testing, find some doctors, realized we needed more help than we had.

Kenna Millea [00:13:50]:
We know as people of faith that everything about ourselves individually and everything about the space between us and our spouse is meant to strengthen and enrich our marriage. And so we wanted to ask these couples, how has this experience of infertility impacted their marriage?

Zach [00:14:10]:
In my experience, like, a maybe is always harder than a no. Yeah. Right? Because, like, a no is, like, alright. I can just move on. So as, like, hard as that time was, it was it was very clear on where we needed to go next. There were I I didn't have to be like, oh, I wanna go get this fixed. Or I'm really, like, stuck on this desire that I have. It was kinda like, oh, okay.

Zach [00:14:32]:
This is that's just kinda off the table, and we need to go. Mhmm. You know, I need to work through this, and I could take the time to do it, but it was like, I I have as much time as I need to, but I have a next step. Sure. I'm like, I need to I can be in a spot where I'm processing through it, but also, like Mhmm. We're not gonna have kids when we can't have our own kids, which, you know, there was there's a a real mourning there because especially get coming in and even with that maybe getting married and you have this vision for what your life's gonna look like, and you're like, we're gonna have this beautiful family, and we're gonna have all sorts of kids running around, and we're gonna homeschool, and, you

Zach [00:15:09]:
know, we're gonna raise them in this way. And even even things like, you know, what traditions do we wanna set up around Christmas for our family, or where are we gonna go on vacation together? And when you're not able to have your own kids, all of that just sort of, like, disappears, and it just, like, kinda slips away really quickly. You're just like, I I thought this is where we were gonna go. And there's a little frustration at the Lord in that too of, like, I thought this is what

Teresa [00:15:37]:
I was signing up for.

Zach [00:15:38]:
I thought this is what we were doing. But Teresa's really solid. And so in that time, it was very clear just from Teresa and then also just in my own prayer, the Lord was like, you signed up for marriage. You signed up in partnership together to be to be fruitful.

Teresa [00:15:58]:
And that's still here, and that's still present, and that's still part of the future that I have for you.

Zach [00:16:04]:
Yeah.

Teresa [00:16:04]:
That's been from day 1 before it gets together.

Annie [00:16:09]:
In the midst of our infertility struggle, I saw it some then, but now, you know, 20 years into our journey, I see it more now that I see how things like this could drive a couple apart. Mhmm. How exactly, like you said, like, your choice is to come together or to pull apart. And, of course, there were times when it felt like we were probably pulling apart some, but but we always came back together. Mhmm. And I think being rooted in our our faith and our love for God and our trust that even though this was really painful, there would be there was fruit to come of it. There was something that was going to happen.

Steve [00:16:45]:
I remember I forget what it was. We were having some conversation. We were both up at 4 AM. Like, it would because neither of us slept that night is when we were living in our townhome. And we decided, well, guess we're gonna go give the dog a walk. And we got up at 4 AM, and we just walked and just had whatever conversation needed to be had and just kept kept on going. And, you know, I I I vividly remember that. I don't remember what the conversation was, but just that we were both tossing and turning that whole night.

Steve [00:17:17]:
And then we're like, well, let's just go for a walk now. Like, alright. Yeah. I think it was a lot of lot of hard conversations, but lots lots of trying to okay. Let's sit down and let's, you know, let's try and pray pray about this together. And then there were times when it was very hard, like, we couldn't pray together about it. Like, because there was that that internal struggle as well.

Annie [00:17:43]:
Definitely prayer when we could pray together. Sometimes it was really, really painful. The conversation about sometimes I needed Steve to just let me cry. He didn't have to say anything or do anything, but I

Steve [00:17:55]:
I wasn't good at that part. Yeah.

Annie [00:17:57]:
I just needed to cry because I was sad and mad and hurt and lost. And me also just sometimes allowing Steve to be angry about it because I didn't want him to be angry, but sometimes he had to be.

Pat Millea [00:18:13]:
For us as Christians, there there's not a part of our life that doesn't impact our relationship with God, that our our faith, our spirituality touches every part of our life. So not only does a journey through infertility affect the relationship between a husband and wife, it also affects their relationship individually between them and God. So, we we got to speak with these couples about how their journey of infertility has impacted their relationship with God and their faith. Let's hear from Eric and Lori. Eric works at priestly formation at a major seminary here in the United States, and Lori is a high school history teacher at a Catholic high school, and they are the proud parents of one adopted child, Michael.

Eric [00:18:58]:
And I I mean, similarly, I I remember many, many times thinking, you know, where's my quiver of arrows? Right? The sons around my table. You know, all that kind of stuff. Right? Yeah. Being in a season of life where so much family formation, family life, spirituality, how to lead your family, whether it's social media, it's YouTube, it's Instagram, it's our community, it's the teachings of that we're surrounded with, the talks that we go to. It's like, I just can't handle more of this. You know? Like, I when is it gonna happen, Lord? And then to your point, Lori, I'm glad you brought the cross in and and, Pat, you too. Like, the sense of the cross is always gonna bear fruit. It can.

Eric [00:19:37]:
It will. I mean, that's God's plan. Mhmm. If we assent assent to it, and and Christ's yoke is the easy yoke. Right? It's meant to the yoke is meant to help us shoulder the burdens of life. It's not meant to tie us down if we go with Christ's yoke. When I think so often, I think for us, for myself, I can speak speak for myself, I would

Eric [00:19:56]:
carry the yoke that I created. Right? The the heavy this heavy burdensome yoke of of I'm not gonna have this desire fulfilled or when is this gonna happen or I can't save Lori from this, as much as I want to. And so yeah. And that was just the sense of fruitfulness and that that that scripture that all things work for good for those who love God. Right? Like, there's goodness. There's fruit to be had here and to take what Ryan said and actually pray with that and try to ascend to it. Try to every day.

Pat Millea [00:20:24]:
And by the way, the Ryan that Eric mentions here is Ryan O'Hara featured on episode 15 of This Whole Life on fostering, adoption, and connections that heal.

Steve [00:20:35]:
Looking back on some of the struggles that we had, if we had that door open or closed, I think would have helped a lot. Or or just instead of getting the you have unexplained infertility. Like, that's what we would get a lot of the answers from our doctors. It's like, we don't know. Yes. It could happen. Yes. It might not happen.

Steve [00:20:55]:
You we just don't know. And so living in that was was hard sometimes because all of a sudden you'd be like, well, why not? And then sometimes you would like, in the back of your mind, the jealousy thoughts would start to start to pop up and, well, I see all these other families growing. Like, why can't we grow ours? Like, why and then starts the you know? I think in some of that some of that time in that that gray area time for us was a lot of also, like, for me, like, yelling at God. Like, I'm frustrated. Why not? Like, I want to be a dad. Like, why can't I be a dad? And then just trying to come to my own grips of okay. Maybe maybe it it needs to happen in a different way. So I think I think for me, it would have been better if it if I had a open or, like, if I had that solid answer, but never knowing, I think, made it even harder.

Pat Millea [00:21:48]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Annie [00:21:50]:
I would agree that the not knowing left a lot of questions. I had a lot of time of just, like, physically crying to God. Like, I don't understand. I don't know why why we've gone through this for so many years. Like, why can't we experience just once ever having a positive pregnancy test? Why couldn't we just ever once have, like, the joy of that, a lot of jealousy, I would agree with also. I think just in the Catholic community, I experienced I felt a lot of not fitting in. And even if other people didn't see it that way, I remember, like, being at a diocesan event years ago, and I don't even remember what it was for. But, you know, Steve and I there, and we're helping with other things because we would pour ourselves into every other ministry we could since it was just the 2 of us and we could.

Annie [00:22:45]:
But seeing all these families and these people I know with all these children and these beautiful babies and thinking, I don't fit in here. Sometimes I was probably a little a little too boisterous in my we struggle with infertility because I didn't want people to presume that we didn't want children or, we're choosing to do, you know, use contraception or something against the church. Like, I didn't want people to presume that about me, so I was probably very very upfront about we would love kids. I don't know why God has decided this is the plight that we need to deal with, but it is, and you can pray for us.

Kenna Millea [00:23:28]:
Anytime our hopes and dreams are not fulfilled or our expectations aren't met, it affects our emotions and our mental health. And so we wanted to hear from these couples how that has been for them. What have they noticed when it comes to their emotions, their mental health, yeah, the space between them and others as well?

Teresa [00:23:48]:
The temptation for a lot of married couples with kids is to talk about their kids

Pat Millea [00:23:53]:
Mhmm.

Teresa [00:23:54]:
And their family life and what that's doing. And that's, like, a real point of connection for people. So I think sometimes there's a kind of a natural getting lost in that culture of people being like, oh, your life looks so different from mine. I have a hard time understanding it, but I'm so absorbed in my life and my kids. And everyone's tired and fatigued and overwhelmed by the life that they're in, and so it's easier to connect with people who are in the same or similar stage of life as you with similar things happening. So I think that would be something I would call out. That would be nice of the intentionality to understand what our life looks like. Or people who are dealing with infertility of what their life looks like will take a little bit more capacity than your average relationship would.

Teresa [00:24:40]:
Yeah. Because it might be different than the life that you're living and the life you've experienced. But it's still good, and it's still worth doing to, like, take that extra effort. Whether it's asking about infertility or whether it's asking about what did you do on your Friday night or how is your ministry going? Or

Pat Millea [00:24:58]:
Mhmm.

Teresa [00:24:58]:
What how's the trip? Because a lot of people with infertility have the capacity to travel.

Pat Millea [00:25:03]:
Sure.

Teresa [00:25:03]:
So what was the trip you just took, and how was it kind of breaking out of the these are the same type of questions that I ask people because these are the type of people that I hang out with.

Zach [00:25:14]:
Mhmm. Yeah. I've never watched Bluey. But I know a lot about Bluey because I hang out with married people.

Pat Millea [00:25:21]:
Like, I'm That is a very funny, very specific example of exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. That is a whole cultural milieu that yeah.

Zach [00:25:30]:
Oh, man. I'm like, I'm more in the, like, young singles, like, lifestyle. Like, what bar did you go to? What sport you know, how are the sports teams doing? Yeah. Yeah. So, like, that's definitely way more the culture

Teresa [00:25:42]:
There's a different culture that's surrounding us than a lot of our friends that are married with young kids. I think the piece that I didn't realize that would be helpful to know that is, like, normal and okay is the, like, random things that, like, bring out sadness. I think an example for me is, like, when I see Zach playing with kids. Sometimes that'll just, like, make me really sad, or, like, the sometimes the the lies that the evil one will tell me of being, like well, I think one, especially for me, was that I wouldn't be a good mom. Like, some of those, like, little things

Zach [00:26:15]:
That's so real.

Teresa [00:26:17]:
To, like, not be hard on yourself when those things come up and when those things, like, hit you really hard, but also not letting those become your entire reality.

Zach [00:26:29]:
Yeah. That's such a, that's.

Teresa [00:26:31]:
Yeah. They come up, but then also of they will go of, like, the attacks of the evil one, the, like, lies that come up, the, like, pieces at your identity that are so, like, central to motherhood, fatherhood, that role, those desires, like, will be kind of called out and poked at and triggered in a way in random things that you aren't expecting, in random situations that you aren't expecting, and that's normal, and that's okay.

Zach [00:26:59]:
Mhmm. Yeah. That's that's so true.

Teresa [00:27:02]:
To experience that and to feel that and of just, like, letting yourself be sad, letting yourself be grieving when you need to, but in a way that doesn't need to, like, take over everything else and blot out everything else of, like, that balance with and that relationship with grief and sadness.

Zach [00:27:21]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. And to voice those too. Like, there was definitely a period of my just even in the past, like, year or so, maybe a couple years ago, where I was like, oh, we can't have kids because I'm gonna be a bad dad. And it was just like, that's such a lie.

Pat Millea [00:27:39]:
Mhmm.

Zach [00:27:40]:
But it's you've got nothing to refute that because there's nothing there's nothing that's like, well, okay. Well, not in this situation. You're, like, there's no I have no context, but that's why that I'm not the Lord didn't give us kids is because he doesn't wanna screw a bunch of them up.

Teresa [00:27:54]:
And verbalizing those to your spouse is so helpful, because they can be the voice to refute that. Because it's hard to do that for yourself. And it's hard to, like, combat some of those lies and some of those sadness and some of those, like, triggers Yeah. On your own.

Zach [00:28:09]:
That's so true.

Teresa [00:28:10]:
Say it out loud, and it, like, loses half of its power. Mhmm.

Eric [00:28:14]:
Kinda getting beyond shame or assumptions or projecting what other people might think of our our needs. I remember the first time this is around the time when I first heard the phrase clear is kind.

Pat Millea [00:28:24]:
Mhmm.

Eric [00:28:24]:
I think it's like a Brene Brown thing. Yeah. And so, like, making our needs clear to people, including brothers in my men's group. Hey, I just need somebody to talk to, you know. I might send a long text or an audio message, but I could rather I I could take a phone call, you know, or a coffee or something or beer. Just like, how do I support my wife in this? And and there were a few friends that came up on the radar that had to struggle through infertility. Some that had a diagnosis full on, you're not gonna have kids, and some that kinda had secondary infertility after a pregnancy. So So so they were helpful.

Eric [00:28:54]:
But even just our other friends with families, like, sometimes I actually wanna go spend time with your kids. Sometimes we need to just be alone. You know? So Mhmm. And just voicing that and not feeling guilty or ashamed of, you know, I don't have kids. This should be easier. You know? That that was a phrase that came up for me a lot. Like, a lot of the shoulds. Right? Like, our life should be easier than our friends who have a lot of kids, or I shouldn't have all the kind of mental emotional struggle, because I don't have kids.

Lori [00:29:17]:
There are times where I just sort of lived my life with I kind of call it, like, the chip on shoulder. Like, everything everything around me, every conversation, every experience, all it did was sort of prove that I'm just a little different. And, I you know, it was easy for me to get really hurt by things quickly, but just staying really sassy, which I'm already inclined to. But, like, just keeping that chip on shoulder. And I think that, gosh, it was such it's such a barrier to relationships. It's a barrier to, you know, living in community, and it kept the comparison game strong too. That's and that's kind of maybe a separate thing.

Lori [00:29:59]:
But, you know, I I think for women especially comparing ourselves to others, I guess, maybe for everyone, but, especially with family life being, you know, of a certain age and seeing how prolific other people are. And you hear the stats and you're like, well, how come more people aren't they don't look like we do and do we fit here and, you know, the internal eye rolls that can happen, when something from the front or an experience, you know, here or there, even at the store, you know, sort of confirms that something's wrong with you. You're different. Not good enough. I mean, all of the things. There's a whole list, you know, where you just see broken, you know, and that's in our humanness. Yeah. So anything that could help kinda draw draw out of that for me, especially that kind of there's a melancholicness that kind of took over.

Lori [00:30:48]:
So I think, yeah, all of that was has been really helpful.

Annie [00:30:52]:
There was one birth mom that we thought this was going somewhere. So, we were invited to fly to Florida to meet her at a sonography place to see an ultrasound of the baby and meet her and decide if this was something that both of us were looking to move forward with. And we flew to Florida. We had the name of the sonographer and but not a time, and we never gotten to heard from that birth mom again. She she no showed us. So in case you were curious, you can go to Disney World and cry the entire time. It is possible because

Annie [00:31:28]:
Steve was trying to cheer me up any way possible,

Annie [00:31:31]:
and we're in Orlando. So we went to Disney for the

Annie [00:31:34]:
day at Christmastime, and I think I cried the entire time we were there.

Steve [00:31:38]:
I was just trying to what can we do? I need the minds just need to be off. Like, what could we do? And I was, like, we are literally walking, like, right at Disney World.

Pat Millea [00:31:48]:
It's the happiest place on Earth.

Steve [00:31:51]:
Not that day.

Pat Millea [00:31:51]:
What could go wrong? Yeah. Yeah.

Annie [00:31:53]:
I'll prove you wrong.

Annie [00:31:56]:
It's very, very funny being 20 years into this journey with 3 small children and thinking, oh my gosh. I wanted to be this tired for

Annie [00:32:04]:
so many years, and I'm so tired now. Why did I wanna be this tired? Why? Like You do it before then I let myself do it. I waited so many years to be this tired and exhausted, and it's awesome and worth every moment. But I do think, oh, I did not appreciate my sleep before.

Steve [00:32:24]:
I would

Steve [00:32:25]:
I wow, I really did like sleep, and I do like my sleep. Oh, boy.

Lori [00:32:32]:
Michael is our son, and we've experienced infertility. And that experience of infertility shapes how we parent. It shapes how for me, I had to, like I had 2 weeks between when we matched. We had 2 weeks between match and when he was born. And

Lori [00:32:49]:
I remember praying, Lord, just, like, light everything up. I need you to get the dashboard. I need you to light it up. We gotta turn the thing on because it's it's a car that's not been running.

Pat Millea [00:33:01]:
Mhmm.

Lori [00:33:02]:
I turned it off. I wanted to keep it off. It's like grass is growing over it in the backyard. Like, you gotta turn it on. Mhmm. And I know that obviously he was at work, and he's like, I got it covered. You know? But in my mind, it was like, I have let these areas lie dormant, and I'm kind of scared to light them up again and to the desire. But the I I had this mindset of, like, I can't have kids, and so I can't have kids.

Pat Millea [00:33:27]:
Mhmm.

Lori [00:33:27]:
Does that make sense? Like, I'm not able to have them there for, like, I shouldn't have them.

Pat Millea [00:33:31]:
Sure.

Lori [00:33:32]:
You know, I can't have them, so I can't have them. And that's a lot and that's a lot to be bringing to a table. And that's not something I want Michael to have a burden of carrying, you know? Mhmm. And so obviously still the Lord is still healing and working and all that. But I guess that's why I say too of, like, that will always be part of our story. And the Lord is destined for all eternity that Michael is our son. It's it's absolutely incredible. It's unfathomable, you know, to many.

Lori [00:34:00]:
And to have that reconnection with her and then to see the, you know, the steps, the process, and then she's leaving the hospital, and Michael's here with us. And I've kind of heard it described, and I would just I would say it's this a moment when my heart was broken and healed at the same time. And I don't know what to do with that sometimes. Yeah. And it's taken and I think it's gonna be something that I'll always kinda come back to, and those feelings are part of who I am now of, like, that experience. And I think they there's a swelling, you know, and and sort of a a subsiding that that that that has happened over the last couple of years. And it's so it's really hard to describe. It's hard to kind of articulate, and I think everyone's experience is different.

Lori [00:34:56]:
But then, you know, going home and home in Utah before we were able to come back to Minnesota and caring for him, a, not knowing what we're doing. We're new parents, and we have no one. We have no one there. You know? It's just us, and we're kinda like, is he drinking enough, and what is happening? And, you know, all the things. But this, like, the lie that, like, oh, he's not your son.

Eric [00:35:19]:
Right.

Lori [00:35:19]:
You know? He's not your son. He's not yours. You took him. That that was so insidious, and it it created for me a, a pretty significant, experience of anxiety, one that I had never encountered before. And so so it's not like it was puppy dogs and rainbows, and we had our son. Like, there was that. I can look back at those pictures, and it's like, unbelievable. Like, this child, he's our the the Lord is, like, knit us together as a family, and we can start to see that.

Lori [00:35:52]:
But, yeah, broken and healed at the same time. I'd never experienced anything like that. I've been broken. I've experienced that brokenness, and I've later experienced healing. But to have it, yeah, just layered, it's, you know, complicated. And and, again, not not if the call is there, then the grace is there. And so just that constant reminder.

Pat Millea [00:36:17]:
One of the great joys of talking to all 3 of these amazing couples is hearing about the ways that they themselves were supported by others during this process of of infertility and for 2 of the 3 couples adoption. So so we asked them where have you found the most support and care during this this journey of infertility?

Eric [00:36:40]:
I mean, it reminded me of when we were in campus ministry and fundraising, talking to people about the mission. Like, thinking of this as a mission. Not not a mission to save a poor kid who can't be raised by his birth mom. But, no, like, the mission of adoption. The mission of standing in the gap. And can I mean, we're all adopted spiritually? Right? So, like, it was it was easy. It was really easy to just throw a scripture out there and say, like, you know, this is God's plan for the human race, and we get to participate in this one child's experience of this. Way.

Eric [00:37:07]:
And people would get by and more so than even campus ministry, people would get behind this as a mission. Yeah. And the conversations we had that opened people's minds to adoption. And a lot of the conversations, for example, around money. Why is this so expensive? And we would talk about the birth mom and the process, and they'd say, say, oh, wow. I really wanna be a part of this. Mhmm. It's just beautiful.

Eric [00:37:25]:
Right? I mean, I if I'm in the receiving end, if I'm being asked to support and and I didn't know anything about adoption, like, what a blessing to learn all of this

Pat Millea [00:37:32]:
Right.

Eric [00:37:33]:
About this whole world that I didn't have experience with. Being in that in that hospital room, visiting with her, getting to hold Michael, before we signed all the documentation and brought him home was different. It was not like what I expected. There was not a flood of happy emotions. It wasn't a flood of difficult emotions either. It was sort of like I I actually felt like I was holding my friend's baby who had just been born. Like, we were visiting a friend in the hospital. Yeah.

Eric [00:37:58]:
And maybe that part of that was some protection that I'd put over myself to not let myself get too emotionally invested because he wasn't our son yet. Although, spiritually, we know from from the moment of his conception that was God's plan. Mhmm. But after signing the papers, which is which is very difficult, of course, as for his birth mom, probably much more so than than us. But we brought him home, and it was that sense that probably every new parent gets to the first child in particular. We're given this baby by the nurses, and we're putting him in a car that we rented, going to an Airbnb that's not our house. Like, we we have full responsibility for this child, and, like, I'm a dad now. Right? And so those are some of the memories that have come back, and, I I will say, you know, that moment of receiving him in that it's kind of like a a neutral hospital room, like a visiting room off to the side.

Eric [00:38:44]:
Mhmm. That was one of the most difficult things I've ever experienced. And I think both of us, we had a flood of emotion, when his birth mom left the room. Because she she came in and Michael was wheeled on a little bassinet, and we kinda said our goodbyes and and she walked out and here's this baby. And, like, what what do we do? We we hold him. Okay. But but what do we do? What do we need to say? What and we had you know, the caseworkers were there and there was a nurse or 2 in the room. So these are people we don't know well.

Eric [00:39:12]:
They're not our friends. They're not our, you know, our our our people. They're on our side. We know that. But Mhmm. That was really difficult. And so, yeah, eventually so we got Michael and picked him up and held him, and and, yeah, we had a moment. I don't know how else to say it.

Eric [00:39:26]:
I mean, a moment of of being in involved in witnessing, experiencing trauma with a capital t, that primal wound of being separated from his mom, his birth mom. Right? Which nobody should have to experience. Right? In in God's grand design, that's not part of his plan. And and yet at the same time, receiving our son that we had prayed for, that we had fought for, that we had, you know, fundraised for, and it's a simple tactical things. But, like, in in in the grand scheme of life, for the rest of my life, I'm gonna be his dad. Mhmm. Right? Mhmm. And so that significant major life change mixed in with the trauma element.

Eric [00:40:03]:
And and I can't relate it to really anything else. I'm sure, you know, with biological birth, there's trauma, there's there's depression, there's there's all kinds of things that can happen with biological birth as well. But but watching that happen and not just watching, but feeling in the room and really just asking Saint Michael's intercession, holding Lori's hand tightly just like we're here and we're in this together. You're not alone. I'm not alone. We've got these people that are fighting for us. His birth mom who made this incredible sacrifice out of love because she wanted him to have a better life. So there's a lot of love, and there's a lot of good intention there, and there's a lot of grace.

Eric [00:40:35]:
There's also trauma.

Annie [00:40:37]:
My parents were very instrumental in not letting us run from the conversation and what was holding us back. And I think we are both terrified of the price tag of adoption because adoption is not cheap. And we were very, very blessed with family and friends who helped us with the financial piece of the adoption, primarily my parents. And as my mom said to me, we could use our money and go on trips every year, but I would rather use all our money and have grandchildren. And no trip is worth a grandchild. So that's what's important to us, and we want to help you. And I think that was very humbling to hear. And

Steve [00:41:24]:
It's what allowed us to grow our family. Yeah. And having that, like, having that just that unwavering support.

Annie [00:41:32]:
And I think just knowing, like, it wasn't like my parents could just write out these checks willy nilly. Like, they you know, it was a sacrifice on their part too. But this desire to be open to life in such a different way as grandparents was huge in them for them. They they knew that they would never regret another grandchild. They would never regret a penny spent

Pat Millea [00:41:56]:
Mhmm.

Annie [00:41:56]:
To help with their grandchildren or their children. That truly put, like, yeah, the worldly things aren't fun. The trips are fun. The items are fun, but they're not important in the long run. Talk to your church about it. You know, we have some wonderful priests who have just listened to me cry, on Holy Thursday.

Steve [00:42:26]:
Holy Thursday, it was Father Mark?

Annie [00:42:28]:
Father Mark Pavlak. He didn't even have to say anything, but after he processed out of the church with the monstrance and he was coming back in, he still had the, all his white, cloak. I can't think of the name.

Pat Millea [00:42:46]:
But The cope.

Annie [00:42:47]:
He had the cope. The cope. He still had the cope on. And he saw me crying and standing there, and he just came up and enveloped me in that in the cope. And that was one of the most powerful moments of my life, whether he remembers it or not. And he said something like, woman, I am here or something like that. He didn't say my name. It was woman.

Annie [00:43:10]:
And it was like God was just talking to me in that moment. So, like, don't be afraid to ask them to pray with you. Or if you can't do it with them, pray for you or just, yeah, talk. Talk to your priest. Talk to your family. Talk to your spouse.

Kenna Millea [00:43:28]:
We ask the couples, what have they learned in this journey of God's plan for them or especially around their fertility? What have they learned about life and love?

Teresa [00:43:38]:
For me, there's been because I had a bunch of health stuff right from high school onward. And so I think early on in my adult life, there's there's always kind of been this, like, stripping of what I expected my life to look like. And it's looked different than I what I wanted or what I hoped. And so I think this was our infertility was kind of another example of that, but the lord had been building lots of smaller ways of building this really solid foundation of trust. And then being able to look back on my life when we got this answer for infertility and saying, oh, in my past, it's looked different than what I expected, but the lord showed up. And his plan is good, and he's delivered, and he's trustworthy. And his plan for me is good even if it's different than what I expected. So I think that was a real fruit that I had coming into, into the season of infertility with the 2 of us, and our marriage was the Lord had already built this foundation of trust in his plan.

Teresa [00:44:36]:
So it was kind of easy to take that and apply it to this situation. And I think, especially, in the year that followed, just started seeing a lot of the fruit and a lot of the abundance. Like, we are both involved in youth work and youth ministry, and we work a lot with teenagers. And that was always kind of a fear in the back of my mind with young family life of the schedule of young babies and toddlers and the schedule of teenagers don't line up well. So So it's kind of this conflict of, like, lord, we feel you're crazy. Calling us to work with teenagers, but marriage automatically calls you to family life. So, like, how do those two overlap, and how will those 2 work together?

Teresa [00:45:13]:
So I think there's been a real abundance and a fruit for the 2 of us to be able to be on mission in a way that's not possible for a lot of young families and young marriages

Zach [00:45:22]:
Mhmm.

Teresa [00:45:22]:
To be kind of this witness in this example in teenagers' lives and teenagers' schedules. That's been really fruitful and really abundant.

Lori [00:45:30]:
In a time where we had you know, we're we're, you know, late twenties and early thirties, there's so many of our friends are married and having kids, and I I just especially in the twenties, I just remember so many baby showers. Mhmm. Yeah. And I I remember sitting down and talking with a spiritual adviser and, you know, I said, I don't I'm a worst version of myself. I I don't like who I am in those places, and I'm working on it. But when they pop up and there there there's a regularity, I don't know how to do that well. And there is this advice of, like, maybe don't do it. And I remember I mean, anytime a baby shower would come up and I'd get invited because it's someone I'm close to.

Lori [00:46:12]:
You know, I remember having those conversations of, hey. I love you. I'm so excited for you. I've got a gift. Can I drop it by? I'm not gonna be able to be there. Like, it's just not a place where I feel like I can I can be? And I think for those who, you know, are supporting those with the fertility to say there's a grace just to offer that grace of there might just be things that I don't go to. You know? There might just be things that are better, and I have to get creative with how I connect with those people to honor them and to honor this experience that they're having. But it doesn't mean I have to guess if it's, like, what kind of chocolates in the diaper.

Lori [00:46:47]:
You know what I mean?

Lori [00:46:48]:
Like, they're so fun and they're, like, really sweet. I'm, like, but the longer that went on, the more it was just, like, I'm never gonna get to do this. I'm never gonna get to be the one to celebrate the bump and to open the gifts and to play the silly games and to have the decorations and, like, then I'm I'm just kind of a jerk. I'm really just someone I don't wanna be, and I don't wanna be around others in that. So the people that my man, the women in my life who were like, totally get that. I totally get that. And I'm grateful and thank you for being honest and thank you for the gift. That's super cool.

Lori [00:47:21]:
My kids got this new thing, you know, whatever. But yeah, just think being honest with yourself and boundaries are so good, but boundaries that still maintain community and connection and intimacy with people and not shutting those down. So practically, that can look different for everybody. But for me, that was so important is knowing myself well enough to know what what do these boundaries need to be and how can I communicate them well to maintain relationship?

Steve [00:47:47]:
When you're in the thick of the battle, like holding on to each other and riding the storm together And and even through the littlest times, the little parts of the storm, like, seemed like the okay. Maybe this is the big part, but it really holding on to each other and having those conversations and walking with each other, throughout all of it.

Kenna Millea [00:48:08]:
Pat, you and I had a front row seat in particular to the beauty of, yeah, adoption adoption as generosity and openness to life through Steve and Annie. Can you share that story?

Pat Millea [00:48:21]:
For sure. Yeah. Yeah. You and I have known Steve and Annie for for many years. I knew Steve first through youth ministry. We'd become good friends. And I I got word when Steve and Annie already had adopted 2 beautiful baby boys and their youngest boy was about 3 months old. I got word that there was a young mother who had was considering, having another family adopt the child that she was pregnant with at the time.

Pat Millea [00:48:49]:
And I had told the grandmother of this baby to arrive soon that if there was ever a situation where adoption might be the best option for the birth mother, let me know, and I'd be happy to check with with some of my connections, people that I know who would be more than happy to adopt a beautiful child. So I called Steve, and I said, hey. Here's the deal. No promises. No guarantees. But I just wanted to know if you and Annie were open or if you were desiring to grow your family and have another child.

Kenna Millea [00:49:18]:
Again, so soon.

Pat Millea [00:49:19]:
Again, I know you're not sleeping through the night, but just quick question. And Steve, you know, very responsibly said, let me go talk to Annie, and I'll give you a callback later on. Okay? He hangs up the phone. 3 minutes later, he calls me back. No exaggeration. 3 minutes later, he calls me back and says, we're in. Let's do it. And that that child now is a beautiful, sweet little girl.

Pat Millea [00:49:46]:
Look at you.

Kenna Millea [00:49:50]:
Oh, it gets me every time.

Pat Millea [00:49:51]:
You and me both.

Pat Millea [00:49:53]:
Alright. Steve and Annie would be the first to say that they are not, you know, the only ones to be generous and open to life, but just a beautiful encouragement to all of us. I think that openness to life, that kind of generosity is such a beautiful call to the to us from the Lord and a great invitation for all of us no matter what our our family makeup looks like.

Kenna Millea [00:50:14]:
So as we bring this episode to a close, you know, no challenge by choice here, just other than to to soak in these words, to soak in these stories, like, my my heart is brimming with gratitude for these 3 couples, for their willingness to to share their stories, to open their hearts up to us, to let us in so that we might see God glorified, in new ways, in new and beautiful ways.

Pat Millea [00:50:40]:
And I I know that for every one of these three couples we interviewed, there are a 1,000 or more couples that you know out there in the world who are just like this. So by all means, reach out, make connections, ask for the support that you need, offer for the support that others need, and, let's live This Whole Life together. Right? You can follow us online as always at thiswholelifepodcast.com. You can follow us on Instagram @thiswholelifepodcast. And there's lots more coming down the road, including some really fun stuff in 2025. So stay tuned, friends, and we will see you next time.

Kenna Millea [00:51:16]:
God bless you. This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center For Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Annie [00:51:43]:
We rented a car with an empty car seat, which is very funny. They look at you kinda strange.

Steve [00:51:48]:
So did the airline.

Annie [00:51:49]:
And then

Pat Millea [00:51:50]:
In my brain, I was picturing 2 adults with an empty car seat getting on a plane. Yes. I'm imagining what people were wondering about that.

Steve [00:51:58]:
The gate agent would had so many questions for us when we're coming in, we're checking everything, and they see

Pat Millea [00:52:03]:
Sir, are you forgetting something?