Ep67 Gender Identity & Gender Dysphoria w/ Dr. Julia Sadusky

"Love without truth devolves into sentimentality. Truth without love becomes cold and calculated."
~ Bishop Robert Barron

Where did we get to this place with regard to gender?
How do I, a Christian, treat people who are gender nonconforming?
What is the relationship between truth and love in real relationships?

In Episode 67, hosts Kenna and Pat engage in a profound & faithful conversation with Dr. Julia Sadusky about gender identity and gender dysphoria. Dr. Sadusky, a licensed clinical psychologist, brings her expertise in psychology, gender, and faith, offering compassionate insights into how parents and individuals can navigate the complex terrain of gender identity with love and truth. This episode delves into the complexities of gender dysphoria, highlighting the real emotional challenges faced by those experiencing it, and provides practical guidance for parents aiming to support their children's gender exploration in a healthy and faith-filled way. Dr. Sadusky also shares her personal journey into this work, illustrating the power of compassion and the importance of presence in moments of suffering. Listeners are invited to examine their own positions and postures, fostering meaningful and empathetic relationships with those navigating gender questions.

Dr. Julia Sadusky is a licensed clinical psychologist and the owner of a private practice in Littleton, CO. She is also an author, consultant, speaker, and adjunct professor. Dr. Sadusky has done extensive research and clinical work in sexual and gender development and specializes in trauma-informed care. She earned a bachelor's degree from Ave Maria University and a master's degree and doctorate in Clinical Psychology from Regent University. She has authored several books around human sexuality, with her most recent two-book series entitled, "Start Talking to Your Kids about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics" (Ave Maria Press, 2023) and "Talking with Your Teen about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics (Ave Maria Press, 2024). 

Episode 67 Show Notes

Visit Dr. Julia Sadusky's website and check out her books

Chapters:

0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
12:57: Defining gender & gender identity
19:34: Gender dysphoria & distress around gender
27:33: Parents facing gender confusion in their children
42:16: Public gender nonconformity & pronouns
54:28: Position vs. Posture
59:49: Navigating gender expression with loved ones
1:10:52: Challenge By Choice

Reflection Questions: 

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. When have you encountered challenges around gender?
3. How do you balance truth and love in the face of conversations around gender?
4. What comes up in you with conversations around gender?

Thank you for listening! Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, and send us an email with your thoughts, questions, or ideas.

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Interested in more faith-filled mental health resources? Check out the Martin Center for Integration

Music: "You're Not Alone" by Marie Miller. Used with permission.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 12:57 Defining gender & gender identity
• 19:34 Gender dysphoria & distress around gender
• 27:33 Parents facing gender confusion in their children
• 42:16 Public gender nonconformity & pronouns
• 54:28 Position vs. Posture
• 59:49 Navigating gender expression with loved ones
• 1:10:52 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:00:00]:
And so when I get to sit across from somebody who is moving through puberty and is weeping, because their body's voting, and they have to contend about the reality of that, And there's grief there, and I get to be in that moment with them, and I have nothing to give them to take away that pain. It helps me appreciate the power and significance of Christ, not just his presence with us in our suffering, but the actual reality of the incarnation.

Pat Millea [00:00:43]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader, and I'm here with my bride, Kenna, a licensed marriage and family therapist. This is the stuff she and I talk about all the time, doing dishes in the car on a date. We're excited to bring you this podcast for educational purposes. It's not therapy or a substitute for mental health care. So come on in. Have a seat at our dining room table and join the conversation with us. We are so glad you're here.

Kenna Millea [00:01:34]:
We are so grateful to Doctor Julia Sadowski for sharing not only the wisdom she's distilled from years of research and clinical practice for those experiencing distress and discordance around gender, but also from her own relationship with the lord, her own work to integrate the church's teachings into her experience. We know this is a complex issue and that the church does not actually make definitive statements about how one must concretely respond. The church does, however, continue to hold us to the standards of truth and compassion, to be Christ who is truth and love incarnate to everyone we encounter. Doctor Sadusky helps us in this episode consider how we might be Christ in the midst of gender and gender identity.

Pat Millea [00:02:24]:
It is This Whole Life friends. Welcome back. It is great to be with you today wherever you find yourself. Warm, sunny, rainy, chilly Minnesota. Minnesota. Five degrees. What did what did you say? So we are recording this in January 2025 Yes. And you told me, Kenna, that on, Monday, the high is what?

Kenna Millea [00:02:46]:
Negative 10.

Pat Millea [00:02:47]:
Negative 10 degrees.

Kenna Millea [00:02:49]:
Julia's getting the heck out of dodge before that though.

Pat Millea [00:02:51]:
That's right. To run. To run for your life. Yeah. That's right. Kenna, my love. How are you?

Kenna Millea [00:02:56]:
How are you? Good. Good. Happy to be back on this mic with you.

Pat Millea [00:03:00]:
Yes. Indeed. It's been a minute. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm really happy to introduce our guest, Doctor Julia Sadusky. Doctor Sadusky is a licensed clinical psychologist and the owner of a private practice in Littleton in Colorado where it's not quite so cold as it is here.

Pat Millea [00:03:15]:
Correct. She's also an author, a consultant, a speaker, an adjunct professor, around topics of sexual and gender development and specializes in trauma informed care. She got a bachelor's degree from Ave Maria University and a master's and doctorate in clinical psychology from Regent University. And she's written a number of books around human sexuality. Most recently, Start Talking to Your Kids About Sex and Talking with Your Teen About Sex. Doctor Julia, so glad to have you. Thanks for being here.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:03:45]:
Yes. It's good to be with you both. I'm excited for our conversation.

Kenna Millea [00:03:48]:
Yeah. Well and, Julia, I got connected to you, at that Notre Dame Symposium this past summer That's right. On teaching life and human dignity, which was just amazing. And you were on a panel with some other experts. And I came home. I think, actually, that night, I called Pat from my hotel room, and I was like, you need to know what I heard today. And just your perspective, your ability to, to help us tease out the nuances and the truth. I just am so grateful that you've said yes so that we can share, what you've come to learn through your research and through your practice with our listeners.

Kenna Millea [00:04:25]:
So thank you for being here. Absolutely. Yeah. Well Julia one of the things that we do just to warm it up and to help everyone get to know where we've all been in life lately. Is sharing a high and a hard. So if you wouldn't mind going first. Sharing a high and hard of life lately.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:04:42]:
Yeah. So one of the highs I would say that comes to mind is, yesterday, right? I'm here in Minnesota and and got the opportunity to work with NET and YDisciple and do a recording of a training for youth ministers and just people in the church who are looking to better help especially teens through sexual development. So what are the things we need to be doing in youth groups to help support parents and being the primary educators of their kids? And so we did about three hours of training and just sitting with a group of Catholics who are faithful and really passionate about working with teens, really felt rewarding to me. And then last night got to talk with parents, at Saint Joe's about my new book, Talking with Your Teen About Sex. And, honestly, that project has been so dear to me. And so now that I get to share with people what I learned through that and, hear people's reactions has been really lovely. Oh, beautiful. That's beautiful.

Kenna Millea [00:05:39]:
Yeah. Any hard in life lately? No.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:05:43]:
Do you guys have hard things happen?

Pat Millea [00:05:45]:
That's the spirit. Yeah.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:05:48]:
Yes. Yes. So I, a dear friend of mine passed away over the holidays, Dave Sao. He's really a light in the church, worked for the Culture Project for many years and, passed away pretty suddenly at 40. And so, yeah, just been, processing that. Got to go to his funeral with some dear friends and see a lot of people from the Catholic world over the years whose lives he touched. And it was really, beautiful and and really sad, you know, to be be grieving him so young and, also rich to see how, you know, a young single man lived in the world with such a vibrant heart for God and and really treasured and loved people in ways that we could all learn from.

Kenna Millea [00:06:34]:
That's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for letting us in, especially into such vulnerable parts of, yeah, your life lately. Yeah. Thank you. For my own high and hard, I would say the hard is I absolutely fall for the New Year's trap. Like, I totally fall for the, like, resolutions and goals, and my husband is laughing because he knows.

Pat Millea [00:06:59]:
Your choleric is showing.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:07:00]:
There it is.

Kenna Millea [00:07:03]:
and so just the it's not so much the, like, oh, I failed or anything like that. It's just this awareness of, like, I am really quite human and quite finite. And, like, there is only so much I can do and only so much that, like, the Lord is really calling me to do. And so meeting those limits, is very humbling, and that is hard. And so, yeah, just these these weeks are the reality check of, like but what is God actually asking of you kinda? And might it be that a lot of those goals were very kinda imposed and kinda driven and not what the Holy Spirit was asking me? So that's a hard I would say the high lately, has been Pat, you and I have had some great, like, challenging conversations, but great conversations of just, like, reorienting ourselves in our values. And it just, I don't know. Like, things in life can feel so chaotic, and and it's okay when you and I are feeling steady. Like, even in the midst of Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:08:06]:
Like, kid sicknesses or kid's behavior issues at school or, you know, whatever. Things at work, feeling like they're tense. If you and I are on the same page and I remember that, like like, you got me, that is just yeah. It's it's such a grace and it gives me a lot of strength. So thanks for making the time for those discussions.

Pat Millea [00:08:26]:
You're very welcome. Yep. My sanguine is showing when I hate those discussions no matter what, we're talking about because they're they're deep and they matter. But they're really valuable, and I'm glad that we have them anyway. My heart lately, speaking of sanguinity, is that, I just love Christmas, which if you have listened to this podcast, you know that because I talk about it way too much around November, December. I love Christmas, which means that January is just the crash from the high. Is it all the joy is over. The lights are down.

Pat Millea [00:08:58]:
The food is eaten, and especially the extra bonus of January is, like, health insurance needs to be renewed. And it's tax season. And just, like, can we do that in August, please? Like, why why does it have to be, like, the incarnation? No. You need to figure out everything you owe the government, and it needs to happen in thirty days. It is just this time of year is a dark time of year, literally, in Minnesota, but in my soul too. So, just fighting against, not like despair in some existential sense, but just like, I just it's hard to do the things that I have to do when it's this time of year. The high is, two things under one umbrella, and the umbrella is Notre Dame. On the football side of things, Julia, we were talking about football earlier.

Pat Millea [00:09:47]:
We we love Notre Dame. I love Notre Dame football way too much. And, if you would have told me three months ago when we went to a Notre Dame game at Notre Dame Stadium that they would be in the national title game, I would have said that's bananas, and you're dumb. That's impossible. And it has been a magical season. It was amazing. We we watched, the Georgia game at our house with our oldest son, and he went to bed at halftime. And it killed him to go to bed because it was late enough.

Pat Millea [00:10:17]:
So we let him stay up for the Penn State game, and we were, like, running around the kitchen in the living room when they kicked the game winning field goal. And we have already made significant plans to let all of our kids stay up as late as they can handle. We'll see how they all do to watch the national championship game. They're not going to school at least right away on Tuesday morning. We'll see what time we get them to school on Tuesday. So I am just praying for a Notre Dame victory, and I get that it is all in God's will.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:10:45]:
But we know who God's team is, you know.

Pat Millea [00:10:47]:
Yeah. But if he could will for good to triumph over evil

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:10:52]:
Just this once.

Pat Millea [00:10:52]:
On Monday night, I would really appreciate that. Yeah. So that's been just so much fun. And, like, my heart is so attached to Notre Dame football, sometimes to a fault, but boy is it a fun ride when it works out well. The other side of it is Kenna, my beautiful bride, listens to me all the time. But one specifically she heard me say a few months ago was, I would love a Lego set just for me. I and I'm not a big Lego guy, but, like, I watch the kids play with Legos. I enjoy doing it with them, but they would they're just like Godzilla.

Pat Millea [00:11:21]:
They will destroy everything three minutes after it it was built. And it's that's good. That's the way they should be. But I want, like, something to build that I can just, like, zone out and focus on and do my thing. So Kenna talked to my mom, and they got me the Notre Dame Cathedral LEGO set. And I just, last night, finished it. And it is so freaking cool, Julia. It is it is, like, really nerdy, and I get that in the salon.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:11:45]:
A Lego person too.

Pat Millea [00:11:46]:
Okay. Great. For it. Yeah. It's beautiful. And the whole instruction book is full of, like, the history of how the actual cathedral was built, all the different steps. It talks about the fire in 2019 and the restoration. It just it was so fun.

Kenna Millea [00:11:59]:
Sponsored as I listen.

Pat Millea [00:12:00]:
It really should be by the Cathedral of Notre Dame. By

Kenna Millea [00:12:03]:
LEGO. LEGO.

Pat Millea [00:12:04]:
Oh, by LEGO. Got it. Yes. They have more money. That's true. Take both. Yes. And I was like, I I love in a in a, like, kind of nerdy sense.

Pat Millea [00:12:13]:
I don't love a lot of history, but I love the French revolution Mhmm. Just because it got so absurd and so evil so fast. So I was listening to this audiobook on the French revolution, building this Lego set. It was just, like, so much fun. So thank you to you. Mom, if you're listening. Thank you to you. Great job.

Pat Millea [00:12:31]:
And, I'm ready for the next church that you want me to build out of Legos someday. If you

Kenna Millea [00:12:35]:
We did look for Notre Dame Stadium, and it does not exist in Legos. So Yeah. This is a plug for

Pat Millea [00:12:40]:
But if they win the national title, boy, would that be motivation for LEGO to put together a Notre Dame Stadium. True. Sorry. Anyway, thank you for sharing a little bit of life with us. Appreciate it. Great to nerd out about football and LEGOs with you. And anytime you come back, we can be, best friends and talk about football and Legos some more. That's right.

Pat Millea [00:12:57]:
But more importantly today, we get to talk about things that matter even more than Notre Dame football, which is hard for me to imagine, but it is. We get to have a conversation around the idea of gender both in in our culture, in our Church, the truth about gender, how that comes to bear on the lives of God's people. And, you listening right now, I am very confident that some of the conversations and rhetoric around gender and gender identity have been maybe swirling around your life in the past five to ten years, you know. Especially here in The United States, it seems like that kind of a conversation has really been building and hit kind of a, like, a a a constant over the past few years. And I I know for myself and for many of us as Catholics, we really don't know how to navigate some of these conversations sometimes, you know. Maybe we're maybe we're confident in what we know to be true about the human person and gender, but maybe we even have some uncertainty around that, what the Church teaches. But maybe we don't know how to approach a child or a sibling or our own feelings about our own gender. So really excited to get into this conversation with you, Julia.

Kenna Millea [00:14:06]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, Pat, as you break that open, I'm aware like, what you said about about culture and rhetoric, like, I'm aware that sometimes I have this this fear and this hesitation to speak about it because I worry that sometimes I'll say things that I don't mean to be offensive or ignorant. Mhmm. And so I think particularly, Julia, just a simple practical thing would be like today, would you help us with that? Like, would you help us to to to talk about to understand, like, what what terminology, what phrasing is respectful and thoughtful? If Pat or I say things and you're like, wow. Y'all are really ignorant. Like, point that out. Like, this is a place where we want to be able to learn.

Kenna Millea [00:14:45]:
Like, we trust that you are coming, you know, to us with this, yeah, through a lens of love and a desire to help our listeners and us to grow, and to, yeah, to be a source of of healing for those who have been hurt by the church in this. So just a little, like, caveat there in the beginning. Please, you know, exercise your expertise here, with us. But, yeah, as as Pat and I were talking about this episode and considering, you know, the many things that you've written about, Julia, the things that you've studied and researched, the the clients that you've seen and the things that you've helped them with, focusing in on gender stood out to us, because for us as parents, right, which is a a lot of the folks who are listening to this whole life, parenting is everyone's first rodeo. I mean, in some sense, everyone's doing this for the first time, whether that's because you've never parented a 20 year old before or you've never parented a two month old before. This is the first, and and all of us have this desire to do it well. And we're maybe even tripping over ourselves in this, like, deep intense desire to know, am I doing this right? And so when we think about something like gender where there's a lot of nuance and a lot of gray and things exist on spectrums and there aren't these black and white rigid, like, check the box, you did that right. You know, just that assurance that so many parents are looking for.

Kenna Millea [00:16:09]:
I think it helps to have someone like you to accompany us to maybe offer some guidelines, you know, best practices, things to think about as we're each creating our own way forward. You know, what culture is our family going to have? How are we going to parent in this? And so just kind of, yeah, to acknowledge that, there's a there's a rookiness in all of us, around this in some way, that, you know, we as as people of faith, who are looking at this desire to to bring our children to Jesus in an intentional way, not just to hope that our kids bump into him and find him on their path. And so, again, that question of integration of yeah. And then and then how do we talk about gender? How do we, lead our family in a way that is also consonant with our faith? So if you could just do that, Julia, like, that should

Pat Millea [00:17:03]:
be Easy. Alright. That's easy, guys. Great. So the and and then the final caveat I'll offer is, you know, this won't necessarily be a conversation around sexual orientation or sexual attraction specifically. Right? If that comes up, then so be it. We if you're listening, we already do have an episode about that, episode 57 with Shannon Ochoa and father Nathan. This is more about gender identity, what that means.

Pat Millea [00:17:27]:
So starting there, Julia, can you help us understand when when when you as a clinician, as an author use the phrase gender identity, what do you mean by that?

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:17:36]:
Yeah. So maybe we start with gender and and because I think people will clock that and then we'll move to gender identity because both of those things build on each other, but, both are often misunderstood and and used synonymously. So it's maybe good to distinguish them. So of course, right, as Catholics, we we certainly have an understanding of what our sex is, biological sex. Right? Male, female. And when we think of gender, we think of more of the psychological, social, and cultural aspects of being a man or woman in the world. So including how masculine or feminine, you know, we kind of map gender in our world, okay? So that's gender and it's kind of more broad social, cultural, psychological aspects of maleness and femaleness manifest in our communities. Gender identity is a phrase that's emerged, more recently that really maps personal experience of self and says, you know, what is my felt sense of maleness, femaleness, masculinity, femininity, or some alternative understanding that I might reflect about my sense of self? So whereas you mentioned sexual orientation is is about attraction, attraction, you know, who am I romantically, sexually drawn to? Gender is really about experience of embodiment and the degree to which that aligns, which it does for most people.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:19:06]:
And then there is a minority of the population for whom gender, that experience of self, is not in alignment with their biological sex. And so that's the group who sometimes may use labels to reflect that that sense of self. And so identity language, of course, is kind of where we have moved in in culture to reflect and talked about that is the use of labels.

Pat Millea [00:19:33]:
That's very helpful. Thank you. And then, when when we talk about when you see in your practice and with your clients, out there in the world, when there are people who experience distress or that kind of dissonance between their their gender, their perceived gender, and their embodiment, What what forms does that take? What do you see that looking like? What what is it that that what we're we're talking about in that distress?

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:19:58]:
Yeah. So certainly, you know, there's a psychological diagnosis currently that that gives us language to talk about a pretty severe experience of incongruence, a kind of gap if you will, between gender and biological sex. And so the word for that is is gender dysphoria, right? So people might be familiar with that euphoria being a positive emotional state, dysphoria being a negative emotional state. And so gender dysphoria is maybe the clinical term for a diagnosis where this is really debilitating for people's lives. So think a person who experiences such a chasm in their sense of self that going outside and going to the grocery store and being seen and experienced within their embodiment, so a female being experienced as female is deeply distressing, so maybe they avoid going out or they avoid mirrors because looking at the self in the mirror feels like such a reminder that I have this experience of great distress. And so people with dysphoria are really wrestling with that experience of embodiment in a profound way. My sense, interestingly, is that people with dysphoria are not questioning whether they were born their sex. The distress is about having to contend with their sex.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:21:17]:
Like, I bump up against being a human who is a body Mhmm. Everywhere I go, and that is distressing for me. And and that would be the experience of dysphoria. And then as you see today, certainly more people, numerically are asking questions around who am I as a gendered person. And, there's an expanding and emerging landscape of language for that. And so, not always synonymous with experiences of distress though. And this can be very confusing, I I think, for parents is, you know, is my child suffering with dysphoria? Is my child simply adopting different categories to talk about their experience?

Pat Millea [00:22:01]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:22:02]:
And even young people, you know, some will say I don't have any distress about this. This is simply who I am. So, again, that identity language coming in there and that creates a lot of opportunities for everybody to speak past each other in this conversation and misunderstand a lot.

Kenna Millea [00:22:19]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I appreciate, yeah, helping us get on the same page, and and at least for this hour, you know, being able to to use terminology and know what we're what we're talking about here. I'm I'm wondering, even just take a step back to it, like, how did you get into this work? Right? As as a Catholic woman, what drew you into this intersection of psychology, gender, and the faith, because you do see clients who are interested in bringing their faith into the conversation, and and you, as I've experienced you, like, you remain faithful to the Church in what you're sharing. So just, yeah, give us a little backstory there.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:22:58]:
Yeah. So it would not be an obvious place for me to end up to be honest. I I am a recovering people pleaser and I am very comfortable being on the peripheral of tension and tense conversation. And so to be in a space that has become so, I think, tense in our culture

Kenna Millea [00:23:17]:
Yeah.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:23:18]:
Would not have been something I would have chosen for myself, to be honest with you. Mhmm. And I I didn't expect to go here. So I went to Ave Maria University for undergrad. I I studied Theology of the Body there, and that was really impactful for me. And right as I was studying that, I had people dear to me, who shared with me about same sex sexuality. So, that they were navigating sexual orientation and faith. And I remember hearing about their journeys and, just being aware that I hadn't had to ask the questions they had had to ask at puberty.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:23:52]:
Like, am I going to hell by virtue of my same sex attraction? And so I I really reflected through Catholic teaching in in light of their experiences, and and that was the start of my real passion and curiosity for the intersection of faith... I studied under Mark Yarhouse, a Protestant psychologist who specializes in sexual orientation and gender and the intersection of those with Christian faith. And so when I got to Regent, it was 2014. And, you may remember at that time that was when Caitlyn Jenner came out, and that was a real cultural moment, actually, for our country. And, Mark had written a book that same year, not knowing that was gonna happen, called Understanding Gender Dysphoria. So as part of my research team we had to read that book. And I was also doing youth ministry at the time, and so I was people were hearing that I understood sexual orientation and that research. And so before I knew it I was getting questions in youth group about gender, and I remember the time where I said I know nothing about that. I said I'm just learning, I'm just reading a book right now about that.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:25:00]:
But my second year I was supervised by Mark Yarhouse and people wanted to be seen by his supervisee around gender and so suddenly half of my caseload is people navigating gender identity and faith. And I became very aware very quickly that most clinicians have one or two clients in their career with this experience and so to be honest it started to feel like an act of stewardship on my part that I had all of this understanding. But I I often say too, as I reflect back on that time, that I think God just expanded my heart. Mhmm. I had such a care and love for sexual minorities, and then I was sitting across from Christian families navigating the gender terrain. And I just saw that there was a lot of needs not being met, within our communities for people navigating this. So that really started the journey of of speaking more and and writing and working with families and gender.

Pat Millea [00:25:59]:
I remember kind of being told in grad school as well that your specialty will find you. You don't need to chase it down and figure it out. Right?

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:26:08]:
Yes. That's been my experience for sure.

Pat Millea [00:26:11]:
That's great. And I can imagine, for for our good listeners out there, you know, that by and large, I certainly, there are people listening who I sure I'm sure have had a sense of distress in their own life with regard to their gender, their biological sex, and maybe this chasm that you talked about between those two. But generally speaking, you know, in in terms of numbers at least, I would imagine most folks who will hear these words will fall into maybe one of two categories kind of broadly stated. I would imagine that there are a lot of folks who have a personal relationship with someone who has these kinds of questions, wrestling, uncertainty. Maybe a parent has a child who seems to be expressing interests or activities that are not gender conforming, so to speak, in twenty first century American terms. Maybe there's a family member that is is expressing or living in a way that doesn't match their biological sex, and they're wondering how to navigate holidays, things like that. So maybe there's a real personal connection. And at minimum, I would imagine that many folks have fallen the second category, which is even if I don't know somebody personally, we certainly come across these conversations.

Pat Millea [00:27:25]:
We come across personal interactions with maybe a a cashier who seems to be presenting in a way that's not in match with their biological sex. So maybe keeping that first category in mind, first of all, if there's someone in my life that that has this experience, has these questions, maybe specifically as a parent, what what thoughts would you have for a parent to meet their child in that space, In the space around being able to raise questions, to explore gender issues, to really wrestle with these things, what kind of, suggestions might you offer to parents with their own kids?

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:28:00]:
Yeah. The first thing that comes to mind is for the parent. I think there's so much attunement to the young person and appropriately so. I mean, there's vulnerabilities there. There's challenges there. But for the parents, what I hear a lot of times is they did not expect to be having these conversations at all.

Pat Millea [00:28:17]:
Yeah.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:28:18]:
And so there can be a lot of shock. There can be a lot of self blame, a lot of looking in the rearview mirror and saying, what have I done to cause this? And so for parents listening, right, who may be experiencing that, the first thing to do is who can you talk to about that? Because actually before you turn to your child and try to figure out how do I show up for them, there has to be an anchoring in how am I receiving what's needed to be able to show up in a way that I can look back on, with integrity and pride. And most parents, if they're honest, you know, when they're having all of those emotions, right, maybe guilt and maybe confusion, anger, disbelief, shock, grief, all of that has the capacity to come out sideways onto their child. And so I like to just help everybody notice that and say, what would it look like to contain that to spaces where there's not that vulnerability of a child receiving your kind of guttural reactions to a phenomenon, as opposed to to the person across from you. And this is where I would offer this distinction to parents which is the political identity versus public versus private identity. So, political being the socio cultural movements, the kind of advocacy, the activism that we hear about on TV, that for many Catholics is really concerning and doesn't represent a Christian worldview. So parents are gonna have their own reactions to that. And then there's public identity, you mentioned this the cashier at the grocery store with theythem pronouns on their name tag, and a parent may be having a reaction to a person in those positions and it's good to notice what that reaction is.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:30:10]:
Because what I witness a lot of the time is when a child then shares or a parent becomes aware that a child is navigating these types of questions, the child almost becomes the container for everything the parent feels about the political and the public. And what I want to remind parents is everything that you know to be true about your child is still true. You simply are knowing and seeing more and as painful as that can be, as challenging as that can be, it's a compliment. Your child trusts you enough. So instead of spending a lot of time in the rearview mirror looking back saying what could I have done differently, which loving parents will do because they love their child, I invite the parent to say, yeah, it's okay to look back, it's okay to talk about that. And then can you turn your attention forward to the person across from you who's a child or a teenager, who despite what they might show you still is gonna need you and cares about your love for them, your attunement to them? And then you get to have you know meaningful conversations about how do we relate to our child. But I think even just to start and say parents this is hard and who do you have to talk to? And how aware are you of your gut reactions? Because what you show on your face to your child says more to them than what you say with your words when they share about this experience.

Pat Millea [00:31:44]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:31:45]:
I mean, and what you're saying, Julia, is so challenging because you're reminding us parents, like, we have our own stuff to grapple with, we have our own our own stuff to maybe heal, and to come to terms with, and to to look in the eye, and to be honest about it. I love that you use the word integrity, right? Because it really speaks to this wholeness, that that in these moments, in these critical, challenging, maybe even what feels like a crisis, shock, trauma, I mean, like, it really can be, our our whole selves. There will be no hiding.

Pat Millea [00:32:19]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:32:20]:
If we've got stuff that we think we've tucked away really, really well. Mhmm. That that that is We are invited to, to to work through that, and and to be real about that. And so this encouragement for parents to get the support that they need first, and and I think that's that's such a good point. I mean, especially when I work with couples, they everyone wants to move so quickly through things. Yeah. And I'm like, I know it feels like the worst thing I could ask of you to like slow it down right now. Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:32:52]:
But but I promise you, if you can, we talk about the space between stimulus and response. So like, if you can just widen that space and and feel as as confident as one can in an unknown situation that the choices you made, the decisions you moved forward with, like are consonant with who you feel called to be, you'll be able to live with so much more peace, in the midst of what maybe feels like a a really difficult, painful circumstance. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. No. I appreciate that. I I guess to kind of further that, thinking about, yeah, this first category of, you know, parents who are who are, grappling with this within their own home, what in the in the on the spectrum of, like, flexible to rigid, Julia, like, how do we healthily support our children's exploration that can be, like, very developmentally normal

Pat Millea [00:33:47]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:33:48]:
Like, and necessary. Yes. And I think for some folks, it's like, oh gosh, but am I encouraging something? Am I am I planting seeds of ideas that are unhelpful? I don't know. Yeah. Share share a bit about, some best practices for us there.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:34:03]:
Yeah. So parents of young kids especially are gonna be really sensitive today to gender nonconformity. There's been such a focus on that, I think, socioculturally. And so just as you said, parents are way worried about, am I gonna contribute to identity confusion or conflict by what I do or don't do in this space. And so let's say I've got a three year old boy who is exploring play and likes Barbies and likes to wear high heels. And maybe I come in one day, and that child has mom's bra on. And parents are gonna be really prone to a really strong reaction out of fear in that moment, which on their face may show up as anger or disgust or a lot of things that they may look back on and say, oh, I don't love that. I don't love that I showed up in that way.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:35:00]:
And so I think we want to recognize a little bit about gender identity development there for parents that for starters three to five is where gender identity starts to show up in kids and any parent can relate to this. Your kid becomes aware of themselves as a boy or a girl right around three to five. That's normal, that's what we expect, And for kids with gender distress, what they say at that age, almost without being aware that it would be different than most people, is a boy might say I'm a girl or when am I gonna be a girl or mom when am I gonna have babies like you? And the moms maybe at first like, oh that's funny, you're not going to be a mom like me. But when it persists it can be really, concerning to that Catholic mom, right? Or that Catholic dad. And and same thing, you know, the other way as well is a young girl who's kind of asserting, oh, dad when am I gonna have a penis like you? I mean that can be really anchored in, biology that they're kind of bumping up against. And so a lot of parents again will blame themselves and a lot of parents say what do we do? If the boy likes Barbies do we hide all the Barbies? Is that what we do? And what we've seen from research is that many of those kids with that early experience of gender incongruence as they move through puberty will find that puberty is solidifying for them of their biological sex and connection to it, if you do nothing. So, don't course correct and try to say no Barbies for you, but also you're not saying oh by virtue of you liking Barbies, you know five year old Joey, we're gonna change your name, we're gonna change your pronouns, we're gonna kind of move down that trajectory now. So helping parents as you said create a space where there's some scaffolding.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:36:53]:
What I talk about in one of my books is parental scaffolding. So you're building enough of a foundation around a child where that they can explore gender, that they if they're a boy, they can play with Barbies. Because actually, they're not more or less of a boy by virtue of liking Barbies.

Pat Millea [00:37:10]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:37:10]:
It's a beautiful thing about our understanding of anthropology. Right? Is is I'm a girl by virtue of being born female, I'm a boy by virtue of being born male, and that that's the anchor. And so interests, preferences, all of these things, there's a lot of latitude there. And so parents may set some types of frameworks as far as, you know, maybe our kids when they go to church, they don't get to bring dolls to church. So nobody's doing that, not my son, not my daughter, nobody's bringing dolls to church. And that's a way that parents can protect young kids from bullying and being targeted since we know gender nonconformity is something that can get targeted by other kids. And so actually a lot of the desire to set constraints for parents at the end of the day is protectiveness. I want to protect my child.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:38:02]:
And and I hear this from dads especially that they know what it was like to be the boy in the locker room who didn't fit maybe the mold of that hyper masculinity. So they're trying to almost, work it out of their young child to ironically protect them. So once dads can see that and notice that, I talk with dads about, so let's talk about the conversation you can have with your boy about expecting that those moments will happen. And here's what you do about that as a young man. Here's how you respond to that. Here's who you reach out to for help with that. So, we can protect our kids without creating very narrow boxes around gender and norms in a way that doesn't serve the child's gender identity and really just becomes a bit of a runaway train that that ends up leading to a child taking a lot of that in a hidden way. And maybe the boy gets that mom and dad don't like him playing with Barbies, so he steals Barbies from the neighbor girls, and he's hiding them in his room.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:39:06]:
And and so the secrecy can really be a runaway train in these cases where parents try to course correct in a way that doesn't actually work.

Pat Millea [00:39:15]:
I remember, your doctor, Kenna, the doctor who delivered many of our babies talking to you about this years ago just kind of unrelated more like on a cultural level possibly a little bit. But the irony of that that rigidity in terms of of gender conformity showing up on both sides of the social political spectrum. Right? That that people who are more quote unquote conservative might see their boy playing with dolls and say that's not what boys do. Boys play with trucks. So you get over there and you pick up a truck. Right? And and there's that sense of rigidity, maybe a little bit of shame built into that, and just maybe, you know, like you said, a lot of baggage possibly about their own past, things like that. But ironically, on the other side, in in the more quote unquote liberal parts of the political discourse, there tends to be that exact same rigidity that when a boy is playing with dolls, because dolls are a feminine thing, ipso facto, we have to move them in the trajectory that you were talking about with with pronouns and hormone blockers and and surgery at the limit, things like that. That that in the middle, there's this much healthier space that that sees the beauty of a man who can be nurturing and caretaking and that that's a masculine trait as well.

Pat Millea [00:40:34]:
And the the strength of femininity and how that can be expressed in in building things and fixing things and and and seeing the the beauty of that, allowing the space for that to grow and flourish even at a young age seems really, really healthy, I think.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:40:48]:
That's exactly right. And I I think many parents across the political spectrum are not eager to move down the trajectory of transition. They really you know, some of the parents I see and and some parents that I don't see but hear from really are concerned about pushing a kid down a trajectory prematurely. So the political discourse is exactly what you described, and then these cases of dysphoria or incongruence get lost in the sauce there because these young kids, while they may show many signs of gender nonconformity, the crux of the dysphoria is very physiological. It's my body doesn't seem to map with who I expect to see when I look in the mirror. And so genitalia becomes a source of great stress in those cases. And so I think a lot of parents maybe even listening think, yeah, so so if we just create a lot of wide boxes won't that just solve the gender dysphoria problem? And and that's not the case actually. The the deeper reality for people with dysphoria is it's the actual embodiment as a sexed being that is a hard reality to contend with.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:41:56]:
And so certainly though in those cases and in a lot of the other cases we're talking about here, expanding and creating more latitude and preparing those kids for what other people might do with their gender nonconformity is really key and is a way to feel I think for parents very effective in a space that can feel super unknown.

Pat Millea [00:42:16]:
Mhmm. So then, you know, if we're gonna, shift gears a little bit from that first category of of I have this personal experience with a loved one maybe to, I I would I don't know if it's more common or not, but at least that second category of kind of the cultural experience that we as Christians all run up against with Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:42:35]:
I think we're all in this category.

Pat Millea [00:42:36]:
Yeah. Correct. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:42:39]:
If you're out in the world, if you go to Target, like, you experience this.

Pat Millea [00:42:40]:
But to our Amish listeners what I'm saying just kidding. They wouldn't have a thing to listen to a podcast Yeah. So so all of us probably have some experience right of like whether it's you know something on social media or a librarian or a teacher for our kids or one of their

Kenna Millea [00:42:58]:
For our kids it's been books.

Pat Millea [00:42:59]:
Yeah. For books things like that. Right? Books. And and even for us as adults. Right? Like co colleagues, coworkers, family members. Starting with maybe a discussion around you brought up pronouns earlier, preferred names, things like that. Can you help us give some maybe guidelines and understanding of what a Christian response might be to someone who says, I need to be called by this name and these pronouns? How how do we navigate that in a way that's charitable but true? Yeah.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:43:29]:
Great question. I mean, the pronoun piece has been such a hot topic and so central. In fact, it feels to me that many people feel like they have to figure out that pronoun debate before they can step into relationship with people, as if there's no in between. So the first piece is in that example you gave if a person was to come to let's say your youth group or, let's say a student at your school or a fellow teacher or a colleague who says, hey I'm in a process of transition and this is my new name and pronouns, it can feel to many Catholics like you have to give an answer right away. And the care you have for the person rises and falls on what you say in that moment, you know, positively or negatively. And so I think taking a step back and remembering that in human relationships, we're allowed to take our time and reflect. And that discernment happens in prayer, it happens in community, it happens with other stakeholders, so in a school setting it happens with other teachers and the principal, and what's the policy around navigating those types of questions in a school setting? In a youth group, it's are the parents involved and are we able to talk with the parents about this journey and and how the parents are approaching it at home? Can we have dialogue about that? You know, with parents with a child, are there other children involved and how what kind of impacts are there? If it's a cousin and we see them once a year at Thanksgiving that may be a little bit different. If they're 12 versus 40 and they've been maybe transitioned ten years and they're coming back into your life.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:45:07]:
Do you see how it looks quite different?

Pat Millea [00:45:09]:
Oh boy!

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:45:10]:
Depending on who, where, what, when, how. So remember that you have the opportunity in a relationship to say, hey, thank you so much for bringing that to me. I'm so grateful that you trust me enough to bring me into that. What was it like to ask me that? Guessing it was kind of a risk. And most people soften it. Right? It's it's not I'm coming in and I this is my list of what I need from you. It's wow. That means a lot that you would even recognize that that was a hard thing to make an ask of you.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:45:49]:
And and then we're having a totally different conversation. Right? And then the parent or the teacher or the youth minister or the extended family member, may share that, hey, to be honest with you, I don't have an answer right now to your question of, like, can you call me this name or pronouns or your request that I do that? I've maybe not got this question before. It's a bit new to me. Would you be patient with me as I take some time to to sit with that? Unless you really feel like it's it's quite clear in that moment. Most people, if they're honest, it's not totally clear in that moment what to do. Mhmm. And I think that creates space for the Holy Spirit to come in and guide a family. And then I'll share a little bit of maybe best practices with you of ways to navigate that.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:46:39]:
But I think ultimately remembering that in real relationships we are allowed to say, hey, this matters to me, you matter to me, can I take some time with this? And then there's a few follow-up questions I recommend in that type of interaction. I would want to know if somebody's making that request of me what it would mean to the person if I did use their name and pronouns. If I was to make that adjustment, what would it mean to you? And a person, as you can imagine, says a lot of different things there. One person might say, it means that you really see me as I am. You really see me as my real gender. Another person may say, I know that you don't agree with me in our understandings of gender, but it means that you're mirroring back the way I understand myself today and that's helpful. Another person may say, you know what it does? It just keeps the focus away from gender when we're talking because I'm not reminded constantly that when I hear my name, it's hard for me.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:47:39]:
So that's what it would mean. And you can imagine that as a a Catholic, you might have an ability to to do different things based on circumstance depending on what it's signaling and meaning to that person. And then the other question is what would it mean not to use your name and pronouns? I would wanna know that as well. Right? So so there's that piece of it. And then ultimately, you know, as far as best practices with youth, I I think what I'm understanding from the current research is it does seem that a social transition, today is impacting the trajectory of gender development. So, if somebody's 13 and everybody changes name and pronouns all at once, that's that's probably gonna consolidate a gender identity in the direction that they've adopted that name and pronouns. And so just being aware with minors, you know, number one parental involvement, what are parents doing in the home, how are we navigating that, talking with parents about that for the parents, how do we navigate that with younger siblings, there's a lot of stakeholders there, Schools are figuring this out. And and there are alternative options, right? Number one, pronouns don't come up unless we're talking about somebody.

Pat Millea [00:48:55]:
Sure.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:48:56]:
I mean, it comes up in prayer. If you're in youth group and you're praying for somebody, God please, right? So, and so being able to be aware that sometimes nicknames can be helpful. Sometimes an adjustment to a name can be a nickname that's a bit more neutral that works or a kind of childhood name, a pet name that Kit grew in the family can be helpful. Avoiding pronouns is a way to kind of say hey I hear you that this is hard to hear and so I'm gonna avoid pronouns and I might not be perfect at that but I'm gonna do that because I hear you that that's painful to hear your pronouns in this in this season of life. And then I think with adults, who have transitioned what ends up happening is when other adults try to refuse to use the name and pronouns they're going by in arguably every setting. And it

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:49:47]:
ends up coming across as unintentionally antagonistic actually. And for what it's worth, I've not witnessed anybody with dysphoria who by virtue of hearing their birth name and pronouns has been able to accept their sexual identity. Like, that would that's actually not the mechanism for how that would happen. And so the hope, I think, in saying a person's birth name and pronouns is I'm somehow helping reflect the truth of who they are and that that's gonna be helpful to them, both psychologically and spiritually. And how I see that play out is it it functions as more of an adversarial dynamic, because there's there's another truth here. The truth of this is it really is hard to hear my name. It really is hard to hear my pronouns. That's not something I'm just saying.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:50:34]:
That's hard. It causes psychological pain for some people. And so, I I think just again if I can make it even more complicated than it already was, just mapping that I think is helpful.

Pat Millea [00:50:47]:
That's really helpful.

Kenna Millea [00:50:48]:
Well, and I love what I mean, what you're saying, that antagonism. That's what I heard in that in those beginning questions that you asked about, can we slow this down? Can I ask you some questions? Is Julia really, helping us to move from a place of, yeah, conflict and and being me against you to, like, how can I come alongside you? How can I understand you? How can I express my love for you by wanting to know you, even if it's hard for me to hear your answers or to understand what you're saying, because it's so different from my experience? Mhmm. I mean, that is Jesus. Right? Like, that is, he he knows that we aren't winning people by coming and clobbering over the head, like you said, with their birth name or their birth pronouns. But but how do we do that in accompaniment, and in that that that, like, self gift of, like, I'm willing to wade in maybe some uncomfortable waters out of love for you because I wanna I wanna come to meet you and I wanna know you. I wanna understand what it's like to be you, particularly because it's so different from what I experience. And so I just as I'm talking, I'm like, oh, fear. Like like, how do we, how do we help ourselves to not be overwhelmed by the fear of, like, if I step into this with you, what does that mean? What am I saying? Like, am I unfaithful?

Kenna Millea [00:52:11]:
Am I no longer, like, living in truth? You know, just straight. That stuff that bubbles in us. And, again, I wanna say, like, that slowing down is gonna let us help us grapple with that. Let us feel a bit more, solidly rooted, than as if we've just thrown everything we've ever known, like, out the window.

Pat Millea [00:52:30]:
That's right. That's right.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:52:31]:
Yeah. Because you can share that with the person across from you. Right? Like, to be honest, I'm really afraid of doing the wrong thing here. And you you matter to me. And I don't want to do the wrong thing here. And I'm I'm afraid that I'm saying something I can't say if I do x, and I'm I'm afraid that I'm saying something I also can't say if I do y, and I feel stuck in the middle of that, to be honest. And I think many people fear that stepping into the experience of another person is synonymous with losing convictions. And what I've been struck by again and again as a psychologist because I've had those fears myself is that actually when our convictions are anchored in reality, they're not so fragile that experience threatens them.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:53:17]:
So I can sit across from somebody, I can wade through those messy waters. I may come to the very same conclusion I would have come to without the reflection, the reflection, by the way, which is maybe for some listeners they say I I can't use somebody's, different pronouns, let's say. I'm just not able to do that. I can assure you that the quality of your relationship with the person across from you is going to be miraculously improved by you demonstrating the level of charity that says, I want to reflect on this with you. And then when you come back and say, I've I've sat with this and just where I'm at today is I'm not in a position to make those adjustments, What can I do? Maybe I'm willing to avoid pronouns. Maybe I'm willing to kind of, say a nickname. Maybe I'm willing to not say names and just say you when I talk to you because I I will look you in the eye and that's how we'll know. And and actually most people, are really ready to receive that when they can tell it's coming from a place of love.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:54:14]:
A lot of times we say I love you, but you you know what that's like, right?

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:54:21]:
It's a different thing to feel it. Like I I know you love me because I can see it when you look at me. That's what Christ helps us to do.

Kenna Millea [00:54:28]:
Well, and I'm gonna, just pull on something that I received actually some text messages last night, Julia, after your presentation of some friends who were like, oh my gosh, you must have Julia speak about this on the podcast. So it felt like you're kind of hinting at to position and posture. Can you say a bit about that? Because I think that is just beautiful. And new news, a new way of speaking about this in in Catholic circles.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:54:50]:
Yes. So it it actually we're borrowing it from dear friends of mine, Bill Henson and Posture Shift is a Protestant organization that works at the intersection of faith, sexuality, gender, and really actually tries to help prevent homelessness in young people navigating the questions we're talking about today.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:55:09]:
So a Christian organization and and Bill developed this idea that there's a distinction we can find between position and posture. And in our culture today many of us are taught that if you have certain positions then you inevitably have a rigid posture. So an example of this might be a Christian having a traditional understanding of Christian marriage. So marriage is between one man and one woman for life, right? To be fruitful and faithful and unitive and procreative. And the idea in in our culture more broadly might be that if you have that conviction, that position on marriage, your posture towards people who are exploring sexual orientation questions, wrestling with can I be married to somebody of the same sex, you know, a family member who is in a gay relationship, that somehow your posture towards that person will inevitably be very rigid and very tight? And so you almost show by your posture that you're unable to be in relationship with them, if that makes sense. And so your position hinders your ability to love might be the narrative. I often remind people that, you know, we we ask the question, can you love somebody and disagree? And you might ask any married couple that question. And they will tell you, uh-huh.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:56:28]:
Yes. In fact, once we stop disagreeing, we might be lacking in love. Right?

Pat Millea [00:56:33]:
Is it weird to tell you that we've never disagreed after that?

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:56:36]:
I was gonna ask that. You don't seem like the type. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:56:39]:
I'm not opinionated at all.

Pat Millea [00:56:40]:
Yeah. I mean, in this interview, we have not

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:56:42]:
disagreed. That's right. Not yet. So we'll see. Yeah. Yeah. So so it's it's one of those things that I I think we know in our bones that we can love one another and see things differently. But if we're honest as humans, we're not good at that.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:56:56]:
And actually as Christians, what I wanna say to fellow Christians and and especially Catholic listeners is by virtue of being Catholic I don't actually find that we're any better at that. That we sometimes out of our position can have a very rigid posture. And so the question becomes what does it look like to anchor in conviction and have a position on human anthropology, right? What it is to be a person and what the path for thriving is and out of that position because it's not fragile, because it's not changing, because nothing under the sun is new, right? That I can sit across from people and my posture be very open and receptive and curious and and clear that, hey, I really do believe certain things about the person and maybe in some cases, not all, but in some cases you might see it differently. And that I can actually hold that out and name that as calmly as I just said it to you that, yeah, it does sound like we actually see that differently. Mhmm. I wanna know more about where you're at. Can I share more about where I'm coming from there? And your position is no longer a stumbling block to a relationship, it's actually the mechanism for an honest, open, mature relationship. And I work with many people who identify as transgender in that kind of community of gender minorities who themselves are people of faith.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [00:58:18]:
I work with some who are not but have people they love who are, and I see a lot of maturity in people in those spaces who would love to be in a room with people, even people who see it differently. But the charity with which we disagree is the thing that I think we need the Holy Spirit for and and the grace of God to help us with.

Kenna Millea [00:58:38]:
Yeah. I I don't remember, Pat, exactly. And maybe more than one episode, but I feel like Father Nathan, who's often with us, Julia, on these episodes, will speak about, like, if if we believe as Catholics broadly, right, if we believe that our faith is the truth, what are we worried about kind of a thing? Like, he's like he's like, we can go out into the margins. Like, what are we worried about? We're worried we'll become unconvinced. Yeah. Then what was that? Like, what was it safe? Like, was it truth? Like and I just I feel like you are touching on that in in this conversation.

Pat Millea [00:59:08]:
I remember Isaac Wicker talking about that too. That same idea of, like, confidence in the fullness of truth means that I don't have to tighten up and get anxious and freak out when someone criticizes it. And I he he took it to the extreme level, which is beautiful of, like, the gates of hell will not prevail. So, like, you can reject it. I can reject it. We can all reject it if we want. It will not stop being true. So so why do I have to lose my peace and get into an argument every time abortion or transgenderism or the political spectrum comes up.

Pat Millea [00:59:39]:
Right? Just so but it doesn't mean denying the truth either. Right? Like holding the position, but having this open posture is just such a it's a beautiful approach. Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:59:49]:
Can I this is kind of a niche question, but we did ask some folks in our community of, like, do you have questions for Julia? Are there things that that we could have her speak to? And and I think this is something I hear often in my office, which is boundaries around, like, requests of family members. Like, so a simple one would be, like, your clothing in this family wedding photo. Like, how do you what would you say to that? Like, how would you speak to a client who's maybe coming to you and saying, like, I've got this cousin, and I want him to dress in his, you know, biological sex clothes that would be socially culturally accepted. Yeah. How can we talk about this? I'm sure we need to blow that question more open. You're

Dr. Julia Sadusky [01:00:28]:
okay. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. So that is a common question. Like, people come in my office too and they'll say, you know, but when do I get to set my boundaries? And when what about me? It's kind of what that that sounds like. Right? What about me? And I get that. Right? The people want to be able to have a seat at the table, I think, is part of that.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [01:00:51]:
People want to be able to assert, I think, their own sense of conviction. And then it's maybe a point of, again, slowing down and asking the person, like, if you imagine that wedding picture on your wall for the next twenty years and and that person dresses in the way they dress in their daily life, they show up and they're in the picture, What is it about that that really concerns you? And what are you hoping for? If they're presenting as, you know, maybe more masculine presenting if they're male, or more feminine presenting if they're female. Like, what's what's that doing for you? That's a different way of thinking about it. Right? Because there's some type of attachment there that feels at risk. And maybe it's the image they had of that picture. Maybe it's who's gonna see it when they walk into their house and what they're gonna think about their family. There's a lot of kind of imagining that can happen and projection that can happen on a a simple exchange like that. And what I offer to people is is you can do this a lot of different ways.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [01:02:10]:
I mean you can hold your ground and you can say everybody in that picture who's male is gonna wear a tux and everybody in that picture who's female is gonna and gently I would I would say at what cost? And is that cost worth it? Because there are costs in any direction. If you let them wear something different, you have to look at that for the next twenty years. So what would that be like? What costs are there if you kind of say, nope. You gotta do this. And and is it worth it to you? Mhmm. And if it is, tell me about that. Right? And if it isn't, what's coming up there? But then I I like to offer the the fact that people with dysphoria, when you ask them, people of faith, especially what what's the number one coping skill that helps you manage it? It may surprise you. It's not name and pronouns.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [01:03:04]:
It's not medical transition. You know what they say? My family believes me that it's hard. Somebody shared with me when I go to weddings, born female, nobody expects me to wear a dress. And if I wake up that day and just the thought of going to the wedding with dysphoria and seeing all these women in dresses and me being in you know something more androgynous or neutral is gonna make me feel like I don't belong and alienated and really panicked. I can text my family and say I I'm gonna watch it, can you FaceTime me in? I just can't go today. That that compassion and knowing and believing that it's really difficult helps. And so so is there a way to do that, and to get the family picture and to move forward as a family with, people who are navigating these pieces being in the picture? Like, what what what does that look like?

Pat Millea [01:04:09]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [01:04:10]:
And and so, again, I I think as soon as we start to bristle and you start to hear that kind of desperate plea for, like, what about me? That's a that's a cue of of, like, there's some fear there. There's some hopes there. There's something you're trying to protect. And if we can know what that is, we can figure out there's probably multiple ways to protect that thing. Yep. And lastly, I would say, of course, that gender stereotypes are are often the gauge that we use for those types of pieces like dress, presentation. And and I may offer, to Catholics, right, that we don't believe as Catholics that you're more or less of a man or woman by virtue of the clothing you have on. Right.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [01:04:52]:
So so, again, God is not so fragile. The human body is not marred in that. The human body is what it is, no matter how we clothe it. And so being able to remember that, that if that person was to come and be gender nonconforming in their dress, that actually doesn't do anything to the reality of embodiment in any way.

Kenna Millea [01:05:18]:
Well, as I listen to you and you talk about, like, okay, what is that that me too, you know, that, that fear, the hope, the word that came to my mind was grief. You know, what what grief might I encounter if I look at that photo? And and like you said, like, and and my family isn't quite what I thought it was gonna be, or it doesn't look it's it's, you know, that photo is a reminder of of the pain, of the suffering. And so, yeah, so many things come back to great for me because I think it it holds so many emotions. It gives us permission to have so many emotions and to acknowledge that that so much in life is a process of letting go of our expectations and receiving what God actually has planned for reasons that we do not know here on Earth.

Pat Millea [01:05:56]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [01:05:57]:
But but to accept his will, and to to continue showing up in that charity, in that hope, in the midst of a life that we wouldn't have written it this way. And that's tough, but that is what it means to be faithful. Yes. Otherwise, we're fickle. We're like, I don't like a plan. Like, I'm out.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [01:06:12]:
You know? Like That's right.

Kenna Millea [01:06:14]:
That's tough. That's right. Oh, man. I have, like, 75 questions. Do we have more time? No?

Pat Millea [01:06:20]:
No. Is it is

Kenna Millea [01:06:21]:
that look is, like, we are out of time.

Pat Millea [01:06:23]:
I would like I wanna talk about this for four hours. Apparently, Julia has a flight to catch. Otherwise, she'll be here when

Kenna Millea [01:06:28]:
it's negative time. So Well, she comes to Minnesota often. We heard. So another episode in the future.

Pat Millea [01:06:33]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [01:06:34]:
Maybe I wanna end with this, you know, Julia. I I imagine that you that your work is intense, and that you wouldn't do this, being, as you said, in this, place that you wouldn't have chosen in the intersection of something that that can be so hostile and hostile and tense around gender and faith, psychology, if it didn't also bring hope and joy? And so I wonder if you would conclude with a story, that does carry that sense of hope and joy, even in the midst of the complexity, and and the mystery of the human person?

Dr. Julia Sadusky [01:07:08]:
Yeah. Thank you for that question. Life is hard, and it's not uniquely hard for each of us and yet it is particularly hard in nuanced ways for each of us. And to be honest with you when I got into this work, I think as a person for whom this isn't my story, I often ask the question, why am I doing this? Why am I doing I could've I could specialize in eating disorders and that be that or mild depression and anxiety. But it it does take me back to the experiences of people I love whose faces I can picture right now, who have, enduring dysphoria. And in the same way that I didn't choose to step into this work, they sure as heck didn't choose to have dysphoria. And they found themselves with this intense distress, and they have to kinda decide, do I keep going? And and so actually, I think it's a opportunity for me, in my work, in my life, in my relationship with Christ to be stretched in my own compassion. I want to be a person of compassion, which means to suffer with.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [01:08:40]:
And sometimes that hypothetically sounds a lot better and a lot worse than it actually is. And so when I get to sit across from somebody who is moving through puberty and is weeping, because their body's voting and they have to contend about the reality of that. And there's grief there and I get to be in that moment with them and I have nothing to give them to take away that pain. But I'm there. It helps me appreciate the power and significance of Christ, not just his presence with us in our suffering, but the actual reality of the incarnation. Like what does it mean that God was so moved with compassion that he had no other solution but to come? And he didn't have to. And he did it anyway because he loves us and he particularly loves with with the love that is unlike anything we've ever known, the person across from me navigating gender distress. And so just stepping into these spaces, it hasn't lead led me to lose conviction.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [01:10:01]:
It hasn't led me to, you know, be maybe wayward in in ways that, it depends on who you ask. But I I haven't found it to be that. But but it has helped me know, the compassion and love of Christ for me, in the spaces where he doesn't take away enduring suffering in me. And it helps me be a tangible presence of him to people, some of whom don't, know him personally yet.

Pat Millea [01:10:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [01:10:36]:
Amen, sister.

Kenna Millea [01:10:37]:
Yeah. No kidding. Beautiful.

Pat Millea [01:10:38]:
Yeah. You for being that agent of incarnation and healing and Yeah. In your clients and loved ones and people who get to read your books and hear you speak. And it's just a great gift that you're offering to the church and to the world these days. What's a what's a, you know, wrapping up with a challenge by choice, what's something that you might propose to people as kind of a next step in this journey of of a fuller understanding of how to how to navigate these questions?

Dr. Julia Sadusky [01:11:04]:
Yeah. So for parents listening, maybe a parent of young children, something I like to offer is maybe take to prayer imagining that one of your children one day shares with you this experience and invite the Holy Spirit into that moment to guide you towards what what are the ways I can be you, God, to my child. I think a lot of parents think to themselves, I'm not gonna think about that until it happens and I really hope it doesn't happen. And that is a strategy that you can use, but what happens is you're not able to show up usually the way you hope. So if we can even imagine what would that be like? What would that feel like? And bring that to Christ and again let him speak into that to prepare you already for unexpected things. Because if it's not distress about gender, there will be unexpected things in parenting. So that's one thing I would offer and then, maybe you're not a parent and and, you're more listening because you could imagine this coming up in other context. Pick the context and this maybe specific scenario, maybe one of the ones we spoke about, maybe ones we didn't.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [01:12:19]:
That would be harder for you. And same thing, take that to prayer. Maybe take it to community, to other people. Hey, how would you handle this if if a colleague came out to you in this way? And and let's use the gift of our faith, right, to help us show up in the way that God is asking us to show up exactly where we are.

Pat Millea [01:12:41]:
It's perfect. What a great great project, great encouragement, great first step for folks. Thanks for that.

Kenna Millea [01:12:46]:
Yeah. True integration.

Pat Millea [01:12:47]:
Totally.

Kenna Millea [01:12:48]:
So Julia, I'm wondering, you know, how can listeners receive from your scholarship, from clinical care? How how can they connect with you, how can they learn more?

Dr. Julia Sadusky [01:12:59]:
Yes, so, my website is my first and last name dot com so I'm sure we can put that in the show notes. Absolutely. That's the best way to keep track of new projects, new resources. I do have an Instagram page that's probably the most widely used way that I connect with people and just tell them about upcoming, you know, speaking engagements, writing, webinars, those kinds of things. And, I've recently started a YouTube channel as well, so I'm hoping to put out a bit more content, through visuals that can help people just get free or low cost options. So, there's gonna be a Patreon attached to that that people are welcome to be a welcome to be a part of to kinda join an online community of people of faith who wanna elevate the conversation around sexuality, gender, and faith.

Pat Millea [01:13:42]:
Nice. And we just both signed up for your new email list that you're putting together. Yeah. So, we'll put all those links down below in the show notes for folks to keep

Kenna Millea [01:13:51]:
up with you. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you again, Doctor Julia Sadusky. Such a gift, to have you in person as well. When we talk about embodiment, like, to be together physically, God is so good, to make this opportunity happen.

Pat Millea [01:14:04]:
And you can always keep up with us listeners, on our website, thiswholelifepodcast.com. You can follow us on Instagram at this whole life podcast. We'll be tagging Doctor Julia Sadusky in all the posts related to this episode so you can follow along with her there as well. You can also send us a note or a text at the bottom of the show notes and we would love, love, love to hear what you have to say and think and additional questions that you have around these conversations of gender. They they hit us at a heart level because they matter and they touch on real human relationships and the conversations are just so valuable. So we would love to hear what's on your mind. Can't wait to can't wait to have you hear from us next time, I guess, and we can't wait to hear from you in the process too. God bless you.

Kenna Millea [01:14:53]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center for Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [01:15:13]:
I look and I go, what are those? As they're coming and the people look around and they're like, get up and run to the tree line. And so we all get up and they just turn to follow us and they're just running at us. We hide. We tap over trees that are laying down, and we hide behind them because, apparently, with moose, they're so dumb that they literally once you get behind the trees, they think you went away. So they just stop. Yeah. They're so they did. They just, like, were running.

Dr. Julia Sadusky [01:15:36]:
They were probably, like, five feet from the trees. They just stopped, looked around, and then trotted across the field and went away. And there's all these hikers watching the whole thing, and we're like, oh my gosh

Kenna Millea [01:15:46]:
To be smarter than the moose. Like, that's all you have to be. We're just not Smart.