Ep68 A Future With Hope w/ Bishop James Conley

"What we can be always sure of - no matter what is happening in our lives - is that we are not alone. You are not alone! God knows your suffering intimately and wants to walk with you through it."
~ Bishop James Conley

How should a Christian respond to a mental health crisis?
Do priests & bishops know what it's like to struggle with their mental health?
Is it worth it to be open & honest about my struggles?

In this beautifully personal episode, Kenna and Pat are joined by Bishop James Conley, who candidly shares his personal journey through mental health struggles and his path to recovery and wholeness. Bishop Conley opens up about the challenges he faced, including situational PTSD, anxiety, and major depressive disorder, and the transformative power of faith, vulnerability, and honesty. Drawing from his experience, he offers insights into the intersection of faith and mental health, emphasizing the importance of an approach to wellness that serves the whole person. The conversation expands to touch on societal issues such as the role of technology in mental health and the responsibilities of the Church in these areas. Bishop Conley's story serves as a testament to the enduring hope and healing available through faith, community, and professional support. Tune in for an inspiring and enlightening discussion that celebrates the pursuit of wholeness and holiness.

Bishop James Conley has been the bishop of the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska since 2012, where his episcopal motto is "cor ad cor loquitur" ("heart speaks to heart"). Bishop Conley was ordained a priest in 1985 and has served at the Vatican and as auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Denver prior to his current assignment. In 2024, he shared A Future With Hope, his pastoral letter on mental health.

Episode 68 Show Notes

A Future With Hope, Bishop Conley's Pastoral Letter on Mental Health

Chapters:

0:00: Introducing Bishop James Conley
7:43: Highs & Hards
18:09: Bishop Conley's mental health journey
35:30: The experience of vulnerability
42:52: Hopeful responses to mental health from the Church
46:44: Daily mental health practices
53:15: Challenge By Choice

Reflection Questions:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. What situations and forces are threats to your mental health? How do you respond to them?
3. What do you take from Bishop Conley's openness about his struggles w

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introducing Bishop James Conley
• 9:21 Highs & Hards
• 19:47 Bishop Conley's mental health journey
• 37:08 The experience of vulnerability
• 44:30 Hopeful responses to mental health from the Church
• 48:22 Daily mental health practices
• 54:53 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Bishop James Conley [00:00:00]:
And he said and this was a stroke of grace. He said, just tell them the truth. Tell them that you're exhausted, that you're tired, that you're depressed, and that you just need time away. You know? And I said, really? I mean, I can say that? And he said, yes. Tell them the truth. And that was the best thing.

Kenna Millea [00:00:23]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast along with my husband, Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader. We invite you to our kitchen table. Okay. Not literally. But you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes. We're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes. It's not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care.

Kenna Millea [00:01:03]:
So let's get talking about This Whole Life. Welcome back to This Whole Life listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to tune in because today, we have an incredible conversation ahead of us. So thank you so much, my darling husband, Pat, for your presence here.

Pat Millea [00:01:28]:
You are very welcome. Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:01:30]:
And welcome to Bishop Conley from Lincoln, Nebraska. Thanks for joining us today, Bishop.

Bishop James Conley [00:01:36]:
Thank you, Kenna, and thank you, Pat, for inviting me to join.

Pat Millea [00:01:39]:
You're very welcome. You, if you're listening now, you may have, come across the name of, Bishop James Conley, especially around conversations of faith and mental health. Bishop Conley was ordained a priest in 1985. He's been the Bishop of Lincoln, Nebraska since 2012. And most recently, this past year in May of 2024, he wrote a pastoral letter called A Future with Hope about his own journey with mental health and his understanding of faith and mental health now in leading his, people of the diocese. Bishop, would you mind giving us a little more background about your your your story, where you're from, how you became to be a priest and eventually a bishop?

Bishop James Conley [00:02:24]:
Sure. I mean, without going into a long, detailed biography, I suppose the main, you know, lines of my life have been that I was, I was raised in, Kansas City, outside of Kansas City. Wonderful parents, protestant and so I didn't become a Catholic until I was at University of Kansas where I studied. So prior to that, was raised sort of in a nominally Christian family. My parents were very good, Christians, but we weren't really practicing our faith or anything like that. But, so I, you know, I I was probably more of an agnostic than anything else. Just really didn't know and but I had good Christian values instilled in me. My father was a a veteran of the second World War and, a great, father figure to me and and and my mom as well was very kind and and good person.

Bishop James Conley [00:03:21]:
So they instilled really good values into us, me and my sister, just the two of us. But my my life kinda changed when I went to University of Kansas in the early seventies and I was involved in a in a in a great books program, humanities program called the Integrated Humanities Program which was for freshmen and sophomores sort of an introduction to the great works of Western culture, not only literature but philosophy and history, art, poetry, music and it was a kind of a whole person type of education, you know, educating the whole person, body, mind, and soul. And it was there that I that I really, for the first time, discovered, truth, goodness, and beauty in every aspect of, you know, human history and human existence and, so it was through reading the great books that my junior year in college, I, asked to be received into the Catholic Church so I converted when I was 20 and, you know, at that point in time, I didn't have any idea that I, you know, was called to be a priest or anything like that. I didn't know that non Catholics could become priests, you know, converts. So anyway, long story short, I graduated with a degree in English literature, didn't really know what I wanted to do, traveled a bit in Europe and worked. And then after about a year and a half or two, I I entered the seminary and, I never looked back really. I I I discovered my my vocation that I wanted to give myself, to God in the Catholic church as a priest. And so I was ordained for the diocese of Wichita, Kansas, and that's where I served as a young priest.

Bishop James Conley [00:05:05]:
I was sent away, to get a degree in Rome which was a wonderful experience. Studied moral theology, came back, taught for a while but was mainly a parish priest and then I was called back to Rome to work in the Vatican and worked for ten years, during the late nineties and early two thousands under both Pope Saint John Paul the second and Pope Benedict. Also, I was chaplain to the University of Dallas Rome campus which was a wonderful sort of compliment to, you know, a Vatican desk job. I was sort of a lowly official in the in the, you know, in this huge operation at at at world headquarters for Catholic church and, and then, taught for a couple years at the Christendom, college campus. So, came back and, and and before that, I was actually chaplain at Wichita State University. So I spent a lot of my priesthood working with college students, and I think the fact that, my own life changed so dramatically as a university student, I always have had a heart, even now. I love we have a wonderful Newman Center here at the University of Nebraska, and so I love spending time with college students and any way I can be involved with college students, because it's such a pivotal time in in a young person's life. So, came back to Wichita and, was pastor for several years at a at a wonderful parish.

Bishop James Conley [00:06:34]:
And then in 2008, I was named auxiliary bishop in Denver, Colorado and, under Archbishop Chaput. And so I was there for, four and a half years, from '08 to '12, end of 2012, and then that's when I was named to Lincoln. And so I've been here in Lincoln now, exactly twelve years. It's the longest assignment I've ever had, and I don't think I'm going any place else. I'm I'm I'm kinda in the fourth quarter now, so I can, I can kind of be somewhat somewhat of course, you never can tell, but somewhat, I think this is where I'm gonna be staying, at least for a while? However however long however long the Lord wants me. So I've been here for twelve years and, it's a wonderful diocese and, that kinda brings you up to today.

Pat Millea [00:07:24]:
That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Thank you for that. And I know from personal experience, having worked in youth ministry, a number of our students have gone to Nebraska Lincoln for college and have just had an incredible experience with the Newman Center and with the Catholic community there in Lincoln. So thanks for being a leader for them throughout the years as well. As we, you know, we like to do it at this whole life. We like to give a little bit of personal connection and, give folks an idea of what's going on in our lives and the lives of our guests with a high and a hard. Bishop, would you be so kind as to kick us off with that?

Bishop James Conley [00:07:57]:
Well, I say, I think for a high, I just, you know, after I had, published that, pastoral letter on mental health kind of kind of chronicling my own journey in in the whole area of mental health and my struggles there, I had been working on another pastoral letter prior to that on Catholic education and after I came back from my own, leave of absence for for mental health reasons, I kinda focused my attention in two areas, as a bishop. You know, Jesus was both a healer and a teacher and so Catholic health care and Catholic education, I figured, well, this is these are two areas that the Catholic church has been involved in since apostolic times. So I was already very interested in education because of, my own experience in in coming to the Catholic church through basically education. It was a secular university but it was through, you know, the humanities. And but also, I had become over the years very involved in health care as which right where I met your dad, Pat. I've been I've been the national episcopal adviser to the Catholic medical association for the last ten years since 2014. So when I came back, I I kinda renewed my effort in both education and in health care and and got involved in a number of things both locally but also nationally. And so this September, on the September 3, I just published a pastoral letter on Catholic education, all the joy and wonder of Catholic education, you know, creating authentically Catholic schools.

Bishop James Conley [00:09:36]:
And so that has, been a great high for me because I've been invited to, to speak in several places, and done a lot of webinars on my pastoral letter because I really do think there's a great renewal in Catholic education going on. I mean, just look around, I think, you know, the rise of homeschooling which is really kind of done our attention on the importance of intentionality in teaching and being authentically real about what we do and teach our children. The pandemic, I can open the eyes to a lot of parents about what kids were learning, you know, in schools Mhmm. Being indoctrinated and all kinds of, you know, not so good things. But also the rise of of I think, independent schools and in Catholic schools too, kind of a realignment or renewal of identity and Catholic identity in our Catholic school system. You know, I think for so long we've tried to keep one foot in sort of the public school system and one foot in the Catholic school and as a result, we just, you know, mediocrity triumphs, you know, it's just not either public nor Catholic. It's just a sort of this in between.

Pat Millea [00:10:47]:
Sure.

Bishop James Conley [00:10:48]:
So I kind of that that actually this this pastoral letter has been sort of the fruit of a lot of years of reflecting on the importance of Catholic education and I do think that there's a great renewal going on in Catholic schools. The hards have been on the medical side and that's been the whole kind of rise of so called gender affirming care and what we have the disservice that we have, offered to young people who struggle with gender dysphoria and who truly, you know, it's a real thing, you know, and and and instead of accompanying them and really trying to work through them and and a lot of times it has to do with mental health and emotional health, then we we do these, I think tragic things and that is be by medications, whether they be, you know, hormone therapy or puberty blockers or what is worse, surgery. And, you know, as as I've gotten deeper into this and met young people who are struggling with gender dysphoria and especially those who have detransitioned and then tell their stories, who are maybe in their late twenties, early thirties and transitioned when they were in their teens as as young as 12 or 13 years old, and and and the disaster that's been in their lives. Why are we doing this? You know? And so I wrote something about a month ago on this. I've become, you know, very we at our last meeting with the Catholic Medical Association, we had about seven young people who have detransitioned, who gave their testimonies and your dad was at this, meeting and they they were really powerful witnesses. And they're beautiful stories, but but also stories of brokenness and woundedness, but also of redemption and recovery. And and these these these are heroes who have gone through this. And and it's it's it's it's because we were not there for them.

Bishop James Conley [00:12:44]:
You know? We, meaning our parents, our medical professionals, counselors, to help them through a very difficult time. And we know adolescence is a very difficult time and a lot of things, you know, there's a lot of challenges. And and, so that's been a hard thing to to to realize that, you know, we can do better for these young people and I think we will and that kinda goes to the heart of of of good mental health and sound principles and psychotherapy and emotional health, goods good emotional health. So that's been kind of the hard thing is seeing that that tragedy is happening in young people's lives.

Pat Millea [00:13:21]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:13:22]:
I feel really grateful, Bishop, for your courage to tackle two really hot topics. Holy cow. And to, you know, to get in there. As a mama bear, like, I know how, you know, how strongly I hold to my opinion. And and also as a mama bear, how much I want the guidance of the Church. I want to be educated. I want to be enlightened. So thank you for continuing to have, yeah, just the courage to to step into these areas of human life that are not neat, where you know you're gonna get pushback.

Kenna Millea [00:13:58]:
You know you're going to get challenged, and yet you do it with such joy and such, yeah, just paternal love. So thank you, truthfully.

Bishop James Conley [00:14:08]:
You're welcome. You're welcome. And joy is the key. I think we have to look at this. We can't be you know, we really do have to bring that joy of the of the beauty of the human person and that holistic approach to it instead of, you know, getting into these culture wars where we're yelling at each other. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:14:26]:
My lovely bride, you wanna take your net your high and hard next?

Kenna Millea [00:14:29]:
Yeah. So, I think two sides of the same coin, which would be this this morning, when I was praying the the scripture verse of, my ways are not your ways and and, like, how that leads to highs and hards in my life. There are areas of my life right now where, I I do really trust that the lord is leading, but I I don't understand what's happening. And so for my, you know, choleric type a personality that wants to be in the driver's seat and that feels like if I can just try hard enough, it'll all go my way, this is a real challenge. I don't wanna sacrifice, connection to the Lord, just to get my way. So so definitely recognizing the heart is, like, yeah. There are some areas where I don't see what he's trying to do and what is unfolding here, and and, yeah, working hard, like, to to keep the faith, in the things that I don't see. And then the high is to particularly here at work, Pat, like, God is so good.

Kenna Millea [00:15:36]:
He is just blessing the Martin Center for Integration beyond my wildest dreams. Just the people he's bringing to us for us to partner with, who share in our mission and and who wanna work with us and the ways that we are growing as an organization. Again, they're not my ways. Like, I this was not my plan. I did not think this is what was gonna happen. And so, yeah, just to, really get to receive and, to just have open hands and do my best to be a steward, but to marvel at God's design. Like, that has been a definite high lately. And what about you, sir?

Pat Millea [00:16:13]:
Well, I, I think my hard lately it feels like an annual hard maybe, which probably means I should pay attention to it. But how difficult it is for me to slow down and be patient during Advent seems to be, an annual issue. And some of it is is are really good things. Like, we, Bishop, you were talking about the importance of Catholic education. Our kids all go to this beautiful Catholic school here in Saint Paul. And Advent means that there are Christmas concerts. And when you have seven kids, that means you have four Christmas concerts to go to in a two week span, which they are all good things. I don't resent one moment of it, but it's just it's a lot of busyness.

Pat Millea [00:16:51]:
It's a lot of kind of craziness. We, there's a lot of basketball which I'll get to in my high, but it's I'm having to be more intentional at being attentive to the season of Advent. My temperament already leans toward Christmas and I just wanted to be Christmas already. So both kind of process and content, I'm I'm having a hard time with Advent, but I'm working on it and I'm gonna try to do better for the next whatever we have left, like, twelve days. My high is that I am coaching our sixth graders boys basketball team this year. And, for all the hards that it does propose in getting 12 year olds to do what I want them to do, it is genuinely really fun. And it's it's a great kind of project for me to hold the tension with young boys of wanting to develop excellence at their at their skill, good, healthy, competitive spirit, wanting to win and balancing that with charity and humility and not being obsessed with sports as, like, the highest good. You know, it's a it's a fun kind of both end to try to propose to them and, try to get them to make a layup once in a while too.

Pat Millea [00:18:01]:
You know, that would just be a bonus. So that's been a it's been a real high this season so far. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:18:07]:
Love it. Thank you for sharing. Well, I'm gonna turn us toward our topic for this episode, which was inspired, Bishop, by that pastoral letter, A Future with Hope. And, you know, for those who haven't read it yet, it's linked up in our show notes. And so we encourage you to read it. Pat, I know you listened to it, which was really special. But, Bishop, can you just kind of bring us all up to speed, on your experience with mental health and particularly in recent years, the ways that that presented itself as a struggle, as a crisis in your life.

Bishop James Conley [00:18:45]:
Sure. And and and that was kind of what prompted writing this pastoral letter was to kinda share my story after I had, you know, kind of healed somewhat. We're always in recovery. I've learned that, you know. We're never, you know, we never can say, okay, I can put that behind me, you know. And and I in a in a way, I didn't wanna put that behind me because, yeah, I wanna get I wanna get better and I wanna get, healthier and it's always a challenge for all of us, I think. But I think that, you know, I I didn't think I would able to say say this when I was going through it, but I think the Lord took me through this really dark period in my life so that I could possibly help others, you know, who are struggling because we're all struggling. We all have dark times in our lives, you know.

Bishop James Conley [00:19:27]:
And, so that's what kinda prompted me to write this pastoral letter, last spring and, and I wanted to kinda publish it during mental health awareness month because as I went through my own struggles, I realized that, you know, that there are a lot of people struggling, you know, in a lot of different ways. And I was I kinda knew that intellectually, I think, but, you know, having gone through it myself, I you you discovered that there's a whole world out there, you know, once you've once you kinda you have now you have all kinds of new brothers and sisters out there that, you know, are struggling and so many and if you're not, well, maybe somebody you love is, you know, that kind of but I, you know, as I said, I didn't have any trauma in my life, you know, to speak of and there was no mental health issues in my history. So I was really not predisposed to any kind of, you know, crisis or anything like that. But for me, I was eventually, kind of diagnosed with a situational PTSD, which, you know, was, came about because of several events in my life that, I was trying to deal with and trying to trying to struggle with, trying to control as you mentioned, you know, trying to fix, you know, I'm the bishop so I should have the answers to these questions, you know, and I just began to that was my first mistake was to think that I have to solve all these problems both, you know, in my own life but also as a bishop and in society and all this kind of thing. So, you know, the sort of, as Doctor Bob Schutts calls it, this ungodly self reliance. It's somehow it's up to me. And so, my struggles began kinda back in 2018 and a lot of things, and I kinda talk about it a little bit in the pastoral letter. But it it began with, you know, not sleeping.

Bishop James Conley [00:21:24]:
I mean, just something as simple as that. You know, ruminating and thinking different scenarios about how I can fix this, what about am I gonna do about this, what am I gonna do about this, you know, and and not realizing that, you know, weeks and then months went by without really having a good night's sleep. And, and, you know, and you can get by for a while on that, but then, you know, things begin to break down, and that's where then anxiety came in. And I began to think of worst case scenarios, which is where the mind goes. Right? You know, you think of the you know, and they're sometimes just outrageous things. You know, they're you know, they're they're just ridiculous. But yet you think, gosh, you know, that could happen. Because you see that happened to other people and you think that's gonna happen to me.

Bishop James Conley [00:22:15]:
As, you know, and and so, you know, that anxiety then, which is really fed with fear and a and a lot of kinds kinds of fear. Fear that I think, about your reputation maybe or about what people think of you, or fear of failure, you know, a fear of failing people that depend upon you. So all these fears kind of mount up, you know, and then you become sort of anxious because of the fears. And, and then then after living like that for a while, I made a timeline, so the the February, all this was sort of mounting. And then in the February, I realized that, you know, this this lack of sleep, my my body was breaking down, the anxiety and the fear was was making me anxious and not able to be very functional or carrying out my duties, you know, and wanting to kind of escape, you know, responsibilities. So not doing things I was supposed to be doing, putting them off, procrastinating, that kind of thing. And then that it was it was kind of an easy slide to depression where you just don't care anymore. You know? I just I just can't do this stuff.

Bishop James Conley [00:23:35]:
You know? I don't wanna do this stuff anymore. You know? And then you think, what do you do with that? And then and then it then I decided I would go up to Minnesota to the Mayo Clinic where I have some good friends who are physicians and I decided I would get a, you know, complete physical and that's where I was diagnosed with PTSD, anxiety, and major depressive disorder. So I said, okay, now I know. I know why I'm feeling awful, you know. And so I began to, go on medication. I had a good physician and I got a psychotherapist and I kinda took a little more seriously spiritual direction which I kinda let slide to. So I thought, okay, these are the tools I need to get better and, things got better a little bit, but the same kind of approach to life was was was was wrong, that I still have to fix all this stuff. It's up to me, and so those pressures that I placed on myself continued.

Bishop James Conley [00:24:33]:
And I and I probably didn't reach out to those around me who could help thinking that, you know, it's up to me. And so then going into the February, I was a little better for a while, then I started getting this tinnitus, you know, this ringing in my ears, which is still here. And, but but but, you know, good getting good medical help, which I think is so important, you know, not just keeping it to myself. But then it was my sister who knows me well and my my best friend was saying, you know, you're not getting better, you know, you really need to need to kinda get out of the fire here. You need to kinda to get some rest. And so finally, I I realized that I wasn't getting better and that I needed to get some time off. And so, you know, what does a what does a bishop do? I mean, you know, you you you're you know, you can't and then all those fears came back. If I if I admit that I'm struggling, then, you know, maybe I'm just gonna I'm gonna have to just resign and go into go into the pasture, you know, and I'm too young for that yet.

Bishop James Conley [00:25:39]:
So, but I I finally got the courage to to approach the apostolic nuncio and, at our meeting in Baltimore, our annual meeting, in in November of 2019. And he was wonderful, Cardinal Pierre. He said, well, yeah, you look awful. You need rest. You're tired. And I said, yeah. And he said, well, you can take some time off. You know, it's okay.

Bishop James Conley [00:26:06]:
And so we kinda set up, an arrangement where the, archbishop who is in Omaha would take over the diocese and I would go some place where I could get some rest. And so that's when I left in December of twenty nineteen, and went to Phoenix. My my my old friend and former bishop was the bishop there at the time, Bishop Thomas Olmsted. And so he said, yeah, come down. We've got a nice little place for a retired priest. You can live there for a while and rest. Get some sunshine because we're going into the winter. Mhmm.

Bishop James Conley [00:26:36]:
Cold in Nebraska. Maybe not as cold as Minnesota, but almost as cold as Minnesota and dark, which I didn't want, cold or darkness.

Pat Millea [00:26:44]:
Right.

Bishop James Conley [00:26:45]:
I went to the Valley Of The Sun. And and and, you know, got a good doctor lined up there and a good psychotherapist and a good spiritual director director and and got the help I needed. And as I said, you know, I took off in December, took a leave of absence, for health reasons and then the whole world took a leave of absence in March of 2020, you know, when the pandemic hit. So it was kind of a strange time because not only was I feeling isolated personally and and as as a bishop, but then the whole world became very isolated and disconnected. So it was real very didn't help in a certain sense, my own kind of dealing with my struggles. But make a long story short, I I I went through that. I took that I ended up taking eleven months off altogether, which I didn't think. I thought it would just be a couple months and I'd be back on the job.

Bishop James Conley [00:27:37]:
Mhmm. But it took that long, you know, to really kinda get my footing back. But I learned a lot, and I, I I slowly came back. And the first year back, I was thanks be to God, that Pope Francis you know, when a bishop takes time off, he has to get permission from the boss and that's the pope through the Apostolic Nuncio. And so, Pope Francis in his graciousness allowed me to come back and that was in November of 2020. Still in the midst of the pandemic. Mhmm. But I came back in 2020 and, oh, another thing that was interesting.

Bishop James Conley [00:28:13]:
So when I did finally get permission to take the leave, I asked the Nuncio, you know, what should I, what should I say? You know, how how should I message this, You know? And and he said and this was a stroke of grace. He said, just tell them the truth. Tell them that you're exhausted, that you're tired, that you're depressed, and that you just need time away. You know? And I said, really? I mean, I can say that? And he said, yes, tell them the truth. And that was the best thing because being very transparent and vulnerable from the get go, I just had this sort of like groundswell of support of people who understood, who said, I'm praying for you. You know, I've gone through a time in my life like this or my sister has and so, you know, we're behind you, all kinds of things, you know, and and that was the best thing. Instead of saying, you know, keeping it very private like taking a leave for personal reasons, well, you know, all kinds of things come to mind about that. Mhmm.

Bishop James Conley [00:29:15]:
That was really a a gift to and that was from the nuncio who said, just tell them the truth. And so I came back in, November of 2020 and then that first year back, 2021 was rough and rocky. I was still on medication. I was still kind of I'm very fragile. And then 2022 was was better, and I'd sort of get some more traction there and got a little more balance in my life and kinda let go of, you know, continue to let go of this whole, you know, idea that I had to fix everybody's problems. And then 2023 and and 2024, this last year, have been just really good. And, but I I realized and so then it wasn't until 20 last spring 2024 that, that I cited in and with the help of a good friend, who's been a good support, he said, you should write this up. I think other people would like to hear your story.

Bishop James Conley [00:30:13]:
And so he and and a couple other people helped me tell my story. And I not being a mental health expert, I needed somebody who was. And so, a good friend came in. She she helped us with the whole kind of science end of it and how do we explain and then all those resources at the back of the and then in during my whole kind of recovery period, I, you know, I would run into a lot of different, mental health care professionals. And then, of course, we mentioned this before we went on, but, I read this summer just as I was just as I had published my, pastoral letter, Jonathan Haidt's book, The Anxious Generation, which I read that through and it just, like, rang so true. And and and the place, you know, and this is what I've been thinking a lot about lately and I don't know, you know, it's it's just bears a lot more reflection and thought is this the place of technology and and and and how technology has played such an important role in the decline of mental health, because of all the time we spend not just in front of screens because that's hate's kind of comparison between a screen based childhood and a and a play based childhood, a really play based childhood. But also the fact that we because I think technology and information, we spend so much time in our heads. And to me, the more the more I think about this and the more I kind of continue to recover, the more I'm seeing the necessity and this kind of kind of morphed over into my pastoral letter on Catholic education is that we need, less screens not more screens And the what what what the screen based culture does, it keeps us in our virtual heads, you know, and, as as my good friend, Chris Stefanik, I don't know if you know Chris Stefanik.

Bishop James Conley [00:32:08]:
He says, yeah, the mind he says, the mind is a very dark and scary place like a forest. You don't wanna go in there alone.

Pat Millea [00:32:16]:
Right.

Bishop James Conley [00:32:16]:
And, you know, if you are in your mind all the time and that's what happens, I think, when you're so much into social media and especially for young people, it's all in their head, you know, and I I, you know, I I I'm affected by it too. We all are. I mean, we can't you can't get away from it. It's here to stay, you know, and it's gonna be a big part of our life going forward. We have to realize, as a bishop, I have to use it all the time, you know. So anyway, that's kind of a it's kind of a roundabout way, but I think in ending on that idea that the the more that we can and simple things like sleep, food, play, out outdoors, basketball coaching, you know, those kinds of things. You can't place that on the screen, you know. You gotta be out there on the court and the guys the kids gotta run and do layups.

Bishop James Conley [00:33:10]:
They gotta repeat layups over and over. Those real things, those encounters, where there's human interaction, that's what we need to really and we I think in in the past, we sort of took all that for granted. Yeah. Sure. You know? I like Jonathan Haidt's got a great thing where he compares playgrounds from, you know, like, twenty five years ago to fifteen years ago, how they changed, you know, they've been kind of dumbed down so they're really not playgrounds anymore. They're just

Pat Millea [00:33:36]:
That was one of my favorite parts of the whole book. Yep. Yep.

Bishop James Conley [00:33:38]:
That was really good. That was really good. Remember he said, you know, that he said that obviously, the most dangerous playground equipment is the the spinners. But also they're the funnest, you know. I remember doing crazy stuff on those things. People breaking your you need to break your arm, you know. But it's crazy dangerous, but it's

Pat Millea [00:34:00]:
So you'll love this, Bishop. In the middle of listening to that audiobook, I Kenna was was working all weekend. She had a big training, so she was kind of indisposed for about three days. So for one of the days, I took all seven of our kids to Graettinger, Iowa to visit my grandma, and it is the only place in America, maybe, that still has a playground with one of the old school spinner things. And my children loved it. And I was so happy to see him on it. They fell off and they got a couple of bruises, but nothing serious. It was beautiful.

Bishop James Conley [00:34:30]:
Yeah. Which is he says bruises, but no broken bones. That's what he wants.

Pat Millea [00:34:34]:
Right. Right. I love I love the encouragement that you talked about from from the nuncio and from, folks in the diocese encouraging you to be open and vulnerable about your experience. I as I was, you know, going through your pastoral letter, that was what struck me really powerfully was it it would have been certainly good and effective in a lot of ways to just write a pastoral letter identifying the the difficulties of the mental health struggles of people and Catholics in particular from kind of a distant perspective. Right? There's enough research, there's enough data, and there there's enough of a call to respond as Catholics that that that would have done a lot of good. But I think it it was really striking to me how much more you were able to speak to it and really identify with your people with such a vulnerable approach. How how it I guess what I'm curious about is how did it feel being that open? You know, I think for a lot of us Catholics in the pews, sometimes we we unfairly characterize the hierarchy as being maybe they have it all together or everything seems to be easy for them. They they're just holy automatically.

Pat Millea [00:35:49]:
So what what was it like for you to to kind of be that open about things that you had struggled with with your people?

Bishop James Conley [00:35:55]:
Well, that's a good question. Kind of twofold. One, on on one hand, it was easy because it was the truth. You know, and I and I didn't have to make up I didn't have to message it. So I just basically just shared with what was happening at the time, real time. And those things, I was by that time, I wasn't sleeping at all so I included all that. So that in on that sense, it was easy but the but the hard thing was to, to be so vulnerable and open because, you know, you you you do want to I think a leader has to show strength, you know, and to be a good leader, you have to instill strength in others and so you can't, you know, it's an interesting kind of thing because, you know, strength shows itself in many different ways and one of the one of the one of the things that that I really discovered actually coming back, and I'm still working on this, again, you know, I am in recovery, you know, I'm not, you know, I I've, you know, I'm just one step away from I think, you know, backtracking and I'm in fact, I just was just I I now touch base with my psychotherapist, you know, maybe every few months and we had a great session yesterday. So I was gonna he was it was just good to kinda look back and talk about things, but I I realized I don't have it all together.

Bishop James Conley [00:37:25]:
You know, I'm still struggling getting pieces of my life in balance again and, you know, I have a tendency. We all have our kind of predominant, traits that we kinda fall back into old habits. I mean, you know, I'm not gonna my default is still there, you know. I could easily slip back into and then I had to had to hear from him. You know? He he kinda reminded me, well, you know, it sounds like the way you were thinking before. You know? You're getting overextended. You know? You're getting involved in all this stuff. How much time are you taking for yourself? You know? Are you getting outside enough? What kind of that kind of thing.

Bishop James Conley [00:38:04]:
I needed to be reminded of that because my default is to go go go go and to get this, you know, to do list and get all these things checked off and then get up and do it again the next day. And so that was a good warning to me. But it's interesting to think about and this kind of morphs over, I think, into spirituality, and that is that, you know, just look at our Lord, you know, and I think of the the there's a great, portrait, painting by Caravaggio of the Doubting Thomas where, Caravaggio, the great artist, has our lord kind of forcing the hand of Thomas into his side. Like, Thomas didn't want it's almost like Thomas didn't want to Thomas was curious to see if if the lord really had risen and if he really was crucified. And so he said, okay, Thomas. You know, put your, look at my wounds, put your hands in my wounds and but the way Caravaggio, the artist puts it, Jesus forces Caravaggio's hand into his side and you know, to me that that and I've got that image in my chapel and it reminds me that the lord's saying, look, be vulnerable. You know? Don't you know, lean into your vulnerability in a strong way because it's it's when you are most vulnerable, like Saint Paul says, you know, in in your weakness, you are you are most strong. And there that's a paradox because it's counterintuitive.

Bishop James Conley [00:39:40]:
You don't think that. But it's true because I just notice, you know, in my own life when I am vulnerable and and really kinda brutally honest with people, and you have to know when to do it and when not to, you know. You don't wanna just wear your heart on your sleeve all the time. That's not good. Yeah. But when you are open about that in in the right context and with the right people who you know and trust, boy, talk about power and strength. You know? That's where the Lord really kinda rushes in And you accomplish more in just a few seconds, you know, than you do in kind of explaining a long dissertation of, you know, whatever you're trying to whatever point you're trying to make. Mhmm.

Bishop James Conley [00:40:25]:
So that's kind of the that's kind of a mystical, spiritual thing that I think we can we can learn from, and it's right there in the scriptures because Saint Paul talks about it all the time you know, he talks about his weakness and here's a guy that, I mean, look at his life, I mean, he was like a super apostle, you know, and he traveled and, you know, all this stuff and yet he came to realize that it was in his weakest moments, humanly, that he allowed the Lord to really take over. And that's why you can say, it's not me that live. I do not live, but Christ lives in me. You know, that's where we wanna get that's the point we wanna get to.

Kenna Millea [00:41:10]:
Yeah. Yeah. I I appreciate, yeah, the the way that you're underscoring that paradox of our faith of, how is it that in our surrender, in our relinquishing the control and the seeming, yeah, way in which we can make everything move and shake in this world, like, that's actually when God's will unfold. That's actually, when the greatest joy, the greatest fulfillment, and that sense of of god's faithfulness to us, I think, is most palpable. I yeah. I've had some moments lately where I've been humbled literally to my knees, and I'm like, these are severe mercies, right, of of, like, thank you, Lord, for reminding me that that wasn't my own doing. Like, that was just that was you. That was you in the driver's seat.

Kenna Millea [00:42:01]:
But, yeah, I just I think about, you know, how many of us listening to you speak, Bishop, feel the weight of the world on our shoulders, whether it's in our jobs, for our families, for our community, for our aging parents, you know, whatever it is that we've got going on. And and your example of how to to step back with the expectation of returning, is even more of a self gift than you ever were before. Yeah. Just the the faith that that takes to trust that, like, there is going to be a resurrection. Right? I have to surrender to the Good Friday, in order that I can, yeah, be be that restored, healed, more whole version of myself, that I wanna give to my people. So thank you. Thank you for that. I guess I'm wondering, you know, as you've gotten more involved, as your eyes have been opened to the reality of mental health, you know, in the church around the world, in in the national church.

Kenna Millea [00:43:03]:
Are there things that you're seeing that excite you? Ways ways in which the faithful or organizations within the church are responding that you're like, yes. Like, more of this. Are there areas of of lack that you recognize that you're like, I I hope that in the years to come, we as a church can respond to this mental health crisis, a different kind of pandemic, you know, people have talked about. Yeah, just from your perspective, you've got that more bird's eye view. Can you tell us what you're seeing and what you're hoping for?

Bishop James Conley [00:43:35]:
Sure. You know, one one area that's very interesting that's happening, in the corporate world and in the business world, there's a lot more, awareness about health and well-being of employees and businesses. And so, they are, you know, in in implementing all kinds of things like paternity leave, you know, or extended maternity leave. These are all, you know, things that I think are very hopeful that we're seeing that, you know, in this pragmatic utilitarian culture of American life where everything is profit driven, you know, and work, work, work. That we're seeing that well, maybe that's not the answer to to the good life, you know, that maybe we need to put our resources, into healthy living And so, you know, health and wellness programs, in corporate America are becoming more, important, in big businesses. And I think this what what's hopeful is that I think that the church can step into this space because we know what the good life is, you know. We understand about human flourishing because, you know, we believe that we are both body and soul and that Jesus is our savior and that he brings really true joy and happiness, long lasting peace and so if we can somehow, navigate, healthy spiritual life and spiritual direction as well as mental and emotional health and well-being in in the marketplace and in our institutions. And there are there are all kinds of, very interesting things happening because everybody needs health care.

Bishop James Conley [00:45:23]:
Right? Everybody's gotta have a doctor. So why not have a physician, who also is mission oriented, you know, that believes not only in keeping you healthy physically, but also keeping you healthy emotionally and spiritually and psychologically. You know? So I see this as sort of the future of Catholic health care are these these kind of microclinics that are very sustainable, and very much scaled on on a human level. And and the Catholic church, we've been at this for a long time. You know? We started health care. We started hospitals. We started schools. So we should be the leaders in this whole renewal of the person.

Pat Millea [00:46:12]:
Yeah. That's one of the principles in your pastoral letter that I really appreciated, Bishop, was you used the phrase frequently in the letter, wholeness and holiness. And there there's a whole section where you talk about seeking wholeness and holiness, with with the podcast, This Whole Life, the phrase that we use is basically identical. We we tell our listeners that we're seeking sanity and sanctity. And it it points to that kind of hold this stick approach, this vision of the human person that you're talking about, that we are body and soul. We're not one or the other. You know, with with that in mind and and kind of with your ongoing recovery like you've talked about, how has your how is your daily life different today than it was in 2018? What are what are you doing differently? What choices are you making differently to be, to to really be a steward and foster your own mental and spiritual health?

Bishop James Conley [00:47:05]:
You know, that's a good question because I need to ask that question myself because I know what I

Kenna Millea [00:47:09]:
Your therapist called.

Bishop James Conley [00:47:13]:
And I know what I want I want to do but, you know, doing it is the challenge. Mhmm. So what I'm trying to do what I'm trying to do and again, you you you you mentioned something that's very important that I wanted to make this distinction. Like for instance, in my struggle with mental health, I got to the point and I talk about this in a letter, I couldn't pray myself out of my condition, you know. In other words, there there's not a spiritual solution to, sacraments but it was hard, you know. I had to drag myself to say mass sometimes because it was so hard. So there's gotta be, like you say, holiness and wholeness, they complement each other but they're not the same thing. You know, they have their own domains, even though they overlap and they're integrated, or disintegrated sometimes which is not good, but they're distinct and that's and that's, I think an important point to make but, what I'm trying to do is to, make sure that each day, you know, I have and again, it doesn't you can't let the great be the enemy of the good, you know, because I'm not I'm not succeeding as well as I would like to but to not let a day go by with without, first of all, prayer, you know, to to make sure you prayer takes a priority, that you you you schedule it in, you know, and that's that's another thing that is my default is, you know, if I'm busy and and and I get tired, then what goes? Prayer, you know? Mhmm.

Bishop James Conley [00:49:04]:
That's terrible. That should be the that should never be that should be the kind of the the one that's that's non negotiable. But also then getting outside and walking or running or biking or doing something even in the cold winter, even if it's like a three minute walk, you know, just get that in somehow, someway. Music, you know, I love music and, you know, and I and music always lifts me up, you know, and if I if I don't listen I can go for a couple days without listening to any good music, you know, and so I need that. Literature, you know, not just things that you're reading for your work or profession but, you know, things for just enjoyment, leisure reading, reading a good story or a good poem, you know, or, you know, observing something beautiful like, nature, being being attentive to the beauty around us which is always there, you know. You just have to walk out your front door and walk down the block or something or go to a park even. Even if you live in a big city, go to a park. If you live in New York City, go to Central Park, you know, and you walk and you get you drink in the the beauty of god's nature, you know, to have that contact with real things, the really real, as I can talk about.

Bishop James Conley [00:50:37]:
Mhmm. And then, to to to be attentive to human encounters so that you're not just looking to the next thing you need to get done in the daytime. But that, you know, when somebody interrupts you or or if somebody kind of calls you or, you know, you haven't you know, you're really attentive to that person and you're not just thinking about the next thing you gotta do or this person's I gotta get to this thing and this person's kinda taking too much time, you know, you're looking at your watch and that kind of thing. So being really, present to those around you, and the sleep. So so so, you know, and and eating too and and, you know, and and really being aware of those things and water, you know, to do you're drinking enough water, you know, those kind of things that we tend to take, especially when we're younger, we take we take for granted. You know? Yeah. But, I mean, I think that those are just basic elements in life that we need to be more attentive and intentional about. Mhmm.

Bishop James Conley [00:51:43]:
And getting all those in, I mean, that sounds like a lot of simple things. Right? But do that every day Mhmm. And and into a to a good balance and a good integration. That's a challenge. You know?

Pat Millea [00:51:56]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:51:57]:
Absolutely. I, I say this and I probably should not be so cavalier when I say it, but when our kids are not sleeping well, I remind Pat and myself, like, sleep deprivation is a wartime tactic. Like, there's a reason that enemies use this on their prisoners of war because we are not ourselves. Like, we will be who knows what kinds of things we could do, like, without sleep? And and so I I really appreciate, Bishop, you drawing back to, how very human the foundations are for mental health. Right? Sleeping and eating and resting and playing and connection and, like you said, things that we take for granted, but in this digital age, you know, I know for myself, all those things you named, I'm like, I I haven't done half of those today. You know, that that it's so easy to let a day turn into a week, into a month. And then, like you said, you look back and you're like, it's been months since I've really nurtured and nourished myself in these ways. So thank you for just, yeah, naming that.

Kenna Millea [00:52:59]:
You heard it here first, guys, like Bishop Conley's telling you. So, yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. I know you've mentioned, many things along the way here, practical, tangible things that that many of us, I'm sure, are taking notes and considering. How can I bring this into my daily life? What is one challenge by choice, Bishop, that you would wanna leave with our listeners today? Something where, yeah, they can they can step more completely into this topic and take into consideration some of the impacts, the daily things that are impacting their mental health.

Bishop James Conley [00:53:35]:
Well, one thing, gosh, it's kinda hard to to boil it down to one thing. But I would say probably, maybe, and it's simple again, is to get outside more. You know? I think that, to me, I know that if I can just I've just you know, I I can make I can just walk around the block once. I come back fresh, you know, and I think that's something that everybody can do, very doable. And, and, you know, whether you're at your workplace or if you're at home or something to do that. And then I would say, you know, there there are, a lot of there's a lot more there's a lot more things available now. Again, you know, because of technology, it's sort of a two edged sword, but but but there are a lot of people that are doing what you're doing, these podcasts, Catholicpsych, you know. Find out what's available, you know, and, and and learn about it because there's so much to learn about it to be make yourself aware of it.

Bishop James Conley [00:54:54]:
If it's not, you know, something that, you know, is gonna help you, it's you can help others by directing people to that. So becoming more aware, I guess, of what's out there.

Kenna Millea [00:55:04]:
Yeah. Well and you did such a beautiful job of listing a lot of resources that are available, many of which are free and easily accessible at the end of your pastoral letter. You helped to educate the masses. And so again, we'll link up, Bishop's pastoral letter and, include all those resources as well. So thanks for doing the legwork of pulling, you know, kind of curating a list, vetted, resources. As we close out here, Bishop Conley, would you be willing to pray for us, and to bless us as we go?

Bishop James Conley [00:55:37]:
Absolutely. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Father in heaven, we thank you for this time together, we thank you for drawing us together those, especially Pat and Kenna and the good work they're doing but also all who might be listening to this podcast and and friends that are connected in ways that only are known to you. We're all in this together, you know, nobody's alone. You know, we we need each other. And help us to recognize that and to reach out, especially if we're struggling.

Bishop James Conley [00:56:17]:
Reach out to those who love us, and who want to help us if we're struggling and who who can help us. There's so much available. There's no reason to think that, that we're all alone. And send your grace, into our hearts that we might be a connection, to others and that that others who are in need of of your love and grace and healing, might find it through us and through the work that you've called us to do. And we ask you to bless everyone, especially, who work in this area of mental health, because we are, created in your image and likeness. We're created to flourish. We're created to live good lives, to happy lives, both here on earth and forever in heaven. And so we ask, Mary's intercession, the mother of Jesus, and all the saints, and may the blessing of almighty God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit descend upon all of you and remain with you forever.

Bishop James Conley [00:57:24]:
Amen. Amen.

Pat Millea [00:57:26]:
Amen. Bishop James Conley, thank you so much for for your ministry, for your episcopacy, for guiding the people of Lincoln, and all of your people elsewhere in the country. Thank you so much for being here with us today as well.

Bishop James Conley [00:57:40]:
Thank you, Kenna and Pat.

Pat Millea [00:57:42]:
And friends, like always, you can, check out the show notes for all the great resources that we mentioned here tonight, today, tonight, whatever. Whenever you're listening to this, it's available to you online, at thiswholelifepodcast.com. We would love to hear your thoughts as well. What what have your experiences been with mental health in the Church? What are ways that you see the Church responding for the flourishing of God's people? What are ways that we Catholics can do even more to to encourage wholeness and holiness in people? You can check us out on Instagram @thiswholelifepodcast. And, feel free to send this to somebody whether they live in Nebraska or not. I guarantee they can benefit from what Bishop Conley has to say. So from Pat and Kenna and from the good Bishop, thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center for Integration.

Pat Millea [00:58:38]:
Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.