Ep69 Active Listening w/ Addy Diaz

"True listeners no longer have an inner need to make their presence known. They are free to receive, to welcome, to accept."
~ Henri Nouwen

Why is it so hard to listen well to others?
Why am I so pained when others don't listen to me?
Can I become a better & more active listener?

In this episode of This Whole Life, Pat and Kenna welcome guest Addy Diaz to explore the art of active listening. Delving into how active listening fosters deeper connections and empathy, Addy shares insights from her experience in clinical counseling and ministry. The discussion highlights the importance of being present and attentive to others' stories, avoiding common pitfalls like bringing conversations back to oneself or offering unsolicited advice. Addy discusses practical "Dos" and "Don'ts", such as eliminating distractions and reflecting feelings and posture, to enhance one's listening skills and connection to others. Through engaging anecdotes and relatable scenarios, this episode emphasizes the transformative power of truly hearing others and provides listeners with tools to become better listeners.

Addy Diaz is a Masters Level Clinician seeking advanced licensure as a Licensed Practicing Clinical Counselor. Addy holds a Master of Science in Clinical Mental Health Counseling from the University of Mary in Bismarck, ND. She received her undergraduate degree in Communications from Northern State University in Aberdeen, SD. Addy is passionate about integrating the truths of the Christian faith and the realities of mental health for a holistic understanding of the person. In her free time, she enjoys spending time with friends, brewing kombucha, gardening, and playing music. 

Episode 69 Show Notes

Chapters:

0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
15:28: The transformative power of active listening
24:07: Embracing the levels of personhood
32:36: Listening communicates worth
40:36: Resisting the temptation to minimize
45:43: Advice & Criticism
53:34: Receiving, not educating
57:39: Challenge By Choice

Reflection Questions:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. On a scale from 1-10, how skilled are you at active listening? Have you become better or worse over time?
3. When have you had an experience of being heard well and with love? What did that mean to you?
4. What is hard about active listening in your relationships? What are the temptations or distractions?
5. What is one way you will work to become a better listener?

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 15:28 The transformative power of active listening
• 24:07 Embracing the levels of personhood
• 32:36 Listening communicates worth
• 40:36 Resisting the temptation to minimize
• 45:43 Advice & Criticism
• 53:34 Receiving, not educating
• 57:39 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Addy Diaz [00:00:00]:
What is it like then for to even engage them and say, hey. I heard what you were saying. Tell me more about what you were saying. And you can watch them, like, brighten up again.

Pat Millea [00:00:14]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast along with my bride, Kenna, a licensed marriage and family therapist. This is the stuff she and I talk about all the time, doing dishes, in the car, on a date. We're excited to bring you this podcast for educational purposes. It's not therapy or a substitute for mental health care. So come on in. Have a seat at our dining room table and join the conversation with us. We are so glad you're here.

Pat Millea [00:01:05]:
Welcome back to This Whole Life friends. It is great to be with you today, tonight.

Kenna Millea [00:01:10]:
Welcome. Welcome.

Pat Millea [00:01:11]:
Welcome back. How are you listening? You can't respond, but I really hope you're doing well.

Pat Millea [00:01:17]:
How

Pat Millea [00:01:18]:
are you my bride?

Kenna Millea [00:01:19]:
I'm good. I'm good. It is a Monday morning. The sun is shining. The snow is melting. What more could I ask for today?

Pat Millea [00:01:25]:
Always winter never Christmas has finally started to come to an end. We also did have Christmas. So it wasn't totally like that the entire time. But February felt like always winter never Christmas.

Kenna Millea [00:01:35]:
Don't you go on your weather diatribe. Okay. Addy. Hi.

Pat Millea [00:01:38]:
Welcome. Hello.

Kenna Millea [00:01:39]:
Thank you. Entre.

Addy Diaz [00:01:40]:
I am so excited for this conversation.

Kenna Millea [00:01:41]:
Are you? It's been a long time in the making. Yeah. Addy Diaz, welcome to This Whole Life. Thank you. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:01:46]:
Addy Diaz is one of our clinicians at the Martin Center for Integration. She's a master's level clinician with a master's of science in clinical mental health counseling from the University of Mary in Bismarck, North Dakota.

Addy Diaz [00:01:59]:
Yes.

Pat Millea [00:02:00]:
She received her undergraduate degree in communications from Northern State University in Tropical Aberdeen, South Dakota.

Addy Diaz [00:02:07]:
Yeah. And vacation get away. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:02:11]:
Visitaberdeen.com. Yeah. And over the last decade or so, Addy's worked in parish youth ministry, which is how you and I got to know each other first of all. And, she regularly leads praise and worship within the name worship for retreats and liturgies and lots of other things. And I'm sure we can talk about that later on too. So, Addy Diaz, welcome aboard.

Addy Diaz [00:02:29]:
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And the listeners should know that we are all very coordinated.

Pat Millea [00:02:33]:
We

Addy Diaz [00:02:33]:
I texted Kenna this morning. I was like, is there a color palette that we need to be following?

Addy Diaz [00:02:36]:
But it actually, like, worked. We didn't Yeah. Yeah. Didn't even plan it.

Pat Millea [00:02:40]:
You didn't text me that question?

Addy Diaz [00:02:42]:
I know.

Kenna Millea [00:02:43]:
I honestly did look to see if she put both of us on the message because I was curious what Pat was gonna say and then I was like, and

Kenna Millea [00:02:48]:
she just texted me.

Pat Millea [00:02:51]:
Prudence and concision. That's

Pat Millea [00:02:53]:
good. Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:02:54]:
Concision? Did you just make up that word?

Pat Millea [00:02:56]:
No. If it's concise, if it's short, it's concision. Right?

Kenna Millea [00:02:59]:
Is that conciseness?

Pat Millea [00:03:01]:
Then I don't know. I do have very strong passionate feelings about when people use the word resiliency. It comes up in sports and athletics all the time. The word is resilience. Okay. There is no such thing as resiliency. Cool. This is very important.

Kenna Millea [00:03:17]:
I love it. Take note, ESPN. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:03:20]:
Oh, my gosh. Well, speaking of things that are important, we would love to start off our highs and hards.

Pat Millea [00:03:25]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:03:25]:
Guest of honor, would you mind kicking us off?

Addy Diaz [00:03:27]:
Sure. So my high has been there we are in, like, a transitional season of life at the moment of moving to a homestead. My roommate is, buying her grandma's homestead and I'm so excited for that. I just got two fruit trees for my birthday. I'm dawning my thirties. I got a fig, I got a fig tree and I got an orange tree. And they're both legit fig tree, like it's gonna fruit. Yes.

Addy Diaz [00:03:54]:
According to the website Woah. It says that I'm gonna get a hundred pints of figs. What? Yeah. So we'll be talking later.

Pat Millea [00:04:00]:
Is there such a thing as too much figs?

Addy Diaz [00:04:03]:
I don't know. But I can make

Addy Diaz [00:04:04]:
figgy pudding now. And that is like hitting a special place

Addy Diaz [00:04:07]:
in my heart.

Kenna Millea [00:04:08]:
Homemade Fig Newtons. Yes. Underrated, by the way. Yes. I do love a Fig Newton.

Addy Diaz [00:04:12]:
That's true. So I can bring in homemade Fig Newtons for the staff.

Pat Millea [00:04:16]:
It's gonna be a really significant part of your identity that you are gonna immediately become everyone you know's Fig Lady.

Kenna Millea [00:04:22]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:04:23]:
Like, you're their Fig hookup. Right?

Addy Diaz [00:04:25]:
I've never wanted that title more.

Addy Diaz [00:04:29]:
Oh my gosh. Did I just find my vocation? What just happened?

Kenna Millea [00:04:34]:
Okay. Okay. So true or false though, do you like figs better, like, whatever, juicy, fresh off the tree, or dried?

Addy Diaz [00:04:43]:
Can we be honest? I'm not sure I've ever eaten a fig.

Kenna Millea [00:04:47]:
What made you pick a fig tree?

Pat Millea [00:04:48]:
Did you get some work to do, fig lady?

Pat Millea [00:04:50]:
I know. I know. Or did your family member pick

Kenna Millea [00:04:51]:
it for you? Because they want you to grow figs.

Addy Diaz [00:04:53]:
No. Here's what happened. My mom was like, or I said to my mom, if you guys haven't found a birthday present for me yet, I would really love some fruit trees for this greenhouse that I'm gonna be acquiring.

Kenna Millea [00:05:03]:
Mhmm.

Addy Diaz [00:05:04]:
And she was like, well, what do you want? So I went on a website and found some fig trees or I found some trees. I knew I for sure wanted an orange tree. I found that. And then this fig tree was only $50 compared to, like, the rest of that. But she handed me her credit card. So what am I supposed to do?

Addy Diaz [00:05:18]:
You know what I mean?

Addy Diaz [00:05:19]:
So I just added the fig tree because it was only $50 compared to the rest of it. Sure. And we'll figure it out after that.

Kenna Millea [00:05:26]:
That's amazing. Okay. So I personally prefer

Pat Millea [00:05:39]:
so saying. We had we had many a fig in Greece when we

Pat Millea [00:05:42]:
were there. I thought

Kenna Millea [00:05:42]:
in love.

Pat Millea [00:05:44]:
And they

Pat Millea [00:05:44]:
Dry figs.

Pat Millea [00:05:45]:
They're all good. I didn't dislike any of them, but they are very different. And I think the dried ones are they're a little more syrupy. Yeah. A little more like

Kenna Millea [00:05:51]:
So much more flavor.

Pat Millea [00:05:52]:
Like sticky sweet, a little more flavor. It's really good.

Kenna Millea [00:05:54]:
The texture is awesome.

Pat Millea [00:05:55]:
Mhmm. It's

Kenna Millea [00:05:56]:
like a Fig Newton, basically. Like chewy

Addy Diaz [00:05:59]:
Can you Can you stuff them with, like, goat cheese or something? Probably.

Pat Millea [00:06:02]:
Oh, yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:06:02]:
Let's try it.

Pat Millea [00:06:03]:
Oh, yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:06:03]:
Okay. Let's do it.

Addy Diaz [00:06:04]:
Okay. This is turning into a cooking show, I think.

Pat Millea [00:06:05]:
This is like fig fan line or something. Yeah. Text us your fig questions. Yeah. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:06:14]:
I mean, give Addy a year. Okay? We can bring her back.

Pat Millea [00:06:17]:
You don't know what the topic is yet if you're listening. It might be figs.

Addy Diaz [00:06:19]:
It might be figs.

Addy Diaz [00:06:20]:
Why are we all wearing fig sweatshirts right now? I don't know what's happening.

Pat Millea [00:06:26]:
Okay. Cool. So that was your high.

Addy Diaz [00:06:28]:
Sorry. Yes. That was my high.

Addy Diaz [00:06:29]:
My hard is, I don't know anything about figs. My my hard would be that with all of the transitions that are happening right now, like, we need to still pack the house, do some deep cleaning that I'm not looking forward to. With all of it, we're just still kind of right in the stage of waiting before it's actually good to deep like, go into the deep end. Yeah. And, like, I'm not moving so that I can pack. I'm moving so that I can unpack and start a greenhouse, and that's still, like, a month out. So I'm sound like a little whiny baby, but I am, like, right in the midst of this waiting period or I'm in, yeah, this waiting period that, oh, I would just really love to get out of. Yeah.

Addy Diaz [00:07:06]:
So Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:07:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. Understandable. You're right. No one moves to pack. Like, that's not what they're looking forward to. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:07:13]:
Yep. So okay. Well, I'm excited for a tour

Addy Diaz [00:07:16]:
of oh my gosh. Homestead. Homestead. Your kids are gonna thrive out there.

Kenna Millea [00:07:20]:
I yeah. Kinda dangerous, actually.

Pat Millea [00:07:23]:
Buckle up. You will have some free labor. I'll tell you that right now.

Addy Diaz [00:07:25]:
Okay. Great.

Pat Millea [00:07:27]:
Not necessarily willing, but free. Right. Right. My dear?

Kenna Millea [00:07:32]:
Yes. Okay. So, this is kind of a goofy, very personal, hard. I guess all hards are pretty personal. But, but this feels really personal because I started a new medication Okay. To help me with my anxiety levels. And one of the only side effect, right, I've tried we talk about this often. Like, meds are fantastic, and they take perseverance and patience because you're not gonna hit it oftentimes out of the park the first time.

Kenna Millea [00:08:03]:
Yeah. So I've done several different things. And this one, the side effect is that I have, like, these stressful, not quite nightmares

Pat Millea [00:08:12]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:08:13]:
But dreams every night. So in the morning, our new ritual has become that I tell Pat what my dream was last night. Okay.

Pat Millea [00:08:22]:
I haven't heard today's yet.

Kenna Millea [00:08:23]:
Right. So today's was okay. Or last night's was, that we were in Target in a city unbeknownst to us, but, like, a metropolitan area. And to to get out of Target, you had to pass an eye exam. I couldn't pass

Pat Millea [00:08:39]:
Fantastic.

Kenna Millea [00:08:40]:
I am, like, blind.

Pat Millea [00:08:41]:
Yeah. You will live in Target now.

Kenna Millea [00:08:44]:
And so they wouldn't let me out. And I was like, but I didn't drive here. Like, I'm not the one who drove me. My husband's with me. Like, where is he? And I'm like, I know he'll pass this eye exam. Like, well, where is he? And so I had to go, like, hunt you down in the midst of Target, and it was like a whole debacle.

Pat Millea [00:08:59]:
So you could get out with my eye test?

Kenna Millea [00:09:02]:
That's what we were trying to figure out when I woke up. We were trying to figure out if I could trust that I wasn't gonna go try to operate my own vehicle with my

Pat Millea [00:09:07]:
You were trying to you were trying to read the

Pat Millea [00:09:09]:
fine print.

Kenna Millea [00:09:09]:
With my 53 vision. That was the number they gave me. Like, so

Pat Millea [00:09:15]:
Just the number 53. Okay.

Pat Millea [00:09:18]:
Okay. Oh, you measure vision?

Kenna Millea [00:09:19]:
But my number was 53. They wrote it on a piece of paper. They're like, ma'am,

Pat Millea [00:09:22]:
you got 53. 53 is terrible in your imaginary scale. That's embarrassing.

Kenna Millea [00:09:27]:
So anyways, these are

Kenna Millea [00:09:27]:
my stress dreams. Don't worry. I have a call to my doctor. We're gonna work on this. But that is my hard. It's like every night I just wake up with, like, a little like, circa 1AM with, like, some kind of rather stressful dream. So anyhow yeah. The other night, there was one about kidnapping one of my kids and an air fryer and all the things.

Kenna Millea [00:09:44]:
Okay. So So, anyways, that's my hard. Okay. My high has been that our kids, I don't wanna say this too loud, have been getting along. Wow. Like, this moment, I have been a mom for fifteen years. Yeah. And they are getting along.

Kenna Millea [00:10:01]:
Like like, we are, like, having to, like, seek them out to see them and to spend time with them because they just wanna play outside or upstairs in their room or down in the basement. Like, they wanna just be together, And they just have these fantastical worlds and games and the boys are, you know, playing sports, whatever. But it is it is magical. And just for anyone who is listening who, like I previously was convinced that this day would never like, I would never live to see this. Yeah. It just might happen. So that is my high, and I'm not gonna talk about it much longer because I don't wanna break the magic of whatever is happening.

Pat Millea [00:10:36]:
Oh, my gosh. That's all I got. That's great.

Kenna Millea [00:10:40]:
What about

Kenna Millea [00:10:40]:
you, babe?

Pat Millea [00:10:42]:
My hard has been, learning to help our children experience, disappointment and defeat in a healthy and fruitful way. I've talked before that I was coaching one of our son's six rate basketball teams this year and it was super fun. I like to complain as if I'm annoyed by spending all this time with 12 year old boys, but it was actually really great and they did a good job and it was really fun. And we got beat in the second round of the playoffs. We won our first game pretty handily, but we ended up playing who the team that eventually won the entire sixth grade championship in the second round and we only lost by five. And it was a really good game. It was super tight and helping not just our son but the boys in general deal with defeat and disappointment in like a healthy sportsmanlike virtuous way is difficult but it's good. Like that's that's half the reason you play sports is to learn how to deal with the things that are terrible and deal with those with toughness and virtue as well as the things that are great and all the wins.

Pat Millea [00:11:51]:
So, and our our nine year old son is as invested if not more than the 12 year old son in the 12 year old's games. So the the nine year old during this tough game that we lost was standing next to me in my way while I'm coaching because he was he wanted to like run out on the court and just be a part of the action. So helping him deal with the disappointment of a game that's not even his

Kenna Millea [00:12:13]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:12:13]:
Was, also tricky. But good. It was it was a good it's a good process for everybody. My high is, that through all of the constant like ups and downs of any relationship especially marriage, I feel like you and I are in a really good healthy joyful place in our marriage right now, which is great. There there have been times that we have not been like that. There will be times again that we're not like that and that's all fine. But it's really nice when you and I are, like, communicating well, getting along, things come easily, and it's all really good.

Kenna Millea [00:12:45]:
So Yeah. Yeah. Praise God.

Pat Millea [00:12:46]:
Yeah. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:12:47]:
Mhmm. I'll take it. Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:12:49]:
For as long, Lord, as you want to bestow it upon us. Well, Addy, we are so excited for this conversation, because it is pertinent to the work that we do and also to the ministry that you are still so deeply engaged in Yeah. Helping out with, you know, speaking and leading retreats and being present at events, through even the praise and worship, that that you and I have had conversations, Addy, about, like, wow. Kinda like active listening. I just left the cat out of the bag. Active listening, which is what we're talking about today, is just a foundation for relationship. And if what we are made for in this life is relationship, relationship with God, relationship with self, relationship with others, then being able to communicate accurately and, and and deeply is important. And so I am thrilled to have you come teach us, what you've come to learn through your experiences.

Kenna Millea [00:13:47]:
So thank you, first of all, for being willing to share this. I'm curious if we can start, Addy, with, what what are what were you seeing going on maybe in the world of ministry, but certainly in the lives of your clients that even pointed you in the direction of, like, active listening is something that I should teach people, that I should put effort and encourage them to make change around how they do this. Like, what was going on for them that indicated this would be helpful?

Addy Diaz [00:14:15]:
Yeah. I think it's coming from because I've also done retreat ministry for the last twelve years of my life as well where I've been a, an active person, a leader at a retreat. There we go. And I just I think I'm I've seen what it's like for people to be received well and to be listened to well. And then to go into places where that's not happening, I can see a physical response now from the people that don't feel heard. Does that make sense? So you can see when someone is in a group and they're sharing or I guess, I don't know. I can I can see how people are sharing in a group? They've shared something exciting or something that is really hard for them. And somehow they get cut off.

Addy Diaz [00:14:57]:
Like, someone interrupts or there's I'm just watching these dynamics. And you can see that person kind of shut down and say, oh, okay. No one heard me. And what is it like then for to even engage them and say, hey. I heard what you were saying. Tell me more about what you were saying. And you can watch them, like, brighten up again. So you there's I don't know.

Addy Diaz [00:15:13]:
I I think I was seeing what was going right in conversation, not that I was always the person that was being the active listener, but I was seeing what was going right in conversation and then comparing that to conversations that just were not It didn't happen. Connected. Yeah. They were not connected. And so it got me into, I I've listened to other podcasts. A lot of this is just a conglomerate of other

Addy Diaz [00:15:31]:
people's wisdom. This is not my Yes.

Addy Diaz [00:15:33]:
This is not my stuff. But, I was drawn to these podcast episodes, videos, this this information that's all surrounding this topic. And now it's almost like a curse because I can I'm really aware of when active listening isn't happening. And I also wanna say at the beginning here, I told Pat this earlier, but I just wanna say a disclaimer. If anyone is listening that has ever been in a conversation with me and you're like, Addy, Addy, you're not that great of an active listener.

Kenna Millea [00:15:59]:
You were scrolling half the time.

Addy Diaz [00:16:00]:
Exactly. Why are you here right now? I'm working on it. You expect something to do. Exactly. So I'm also a little bit of a hypocrite in this. Yeah. But that that I've also learned how I need to work to be better as an active listener. Like, do not take me to Buffalo Wild Wings if you wanna share your story with me because there are 50 too many screens.

Addy Diaz [00:16:20]:
It's too loud. I get distracted by everyone walking by. So anyway, all of that to say.

Pat Millea [00:16:24]:
Well, that's a good, that's a good kind of, framework, I think, for a discussion like this. Because I can imagine I know for me and for maybe if you're listening as well, there may be two kind of opposite responses to just even the topic of active listening. Yeah. And I wanna get your take on on kind of how you would respond to these. So maybe on one side you've got people who who know very deeply that this is not a natural skill for them. Yeah. That this does not come easily. I get easily distracted.

Pat Millea [00:16:53]:
I don't really know how to show people like with my with my face, with my body language that I'm listening. Maybe I am listening really well but it doesn't seem like I am. Like I I don't show it very easily, you know. So maybe maybe there are folks listening who are recognizing I I need help with this. This does not come easily for me. Yeah. And maybe there are other people listening who are like, it's listening. I do it great.

Pat Millea [00:17:15]:
We we do it great. What's the problem? Like why are we talking about this in the first place? Right? So what what what kind of, thoughts would you have for those two different kind of responses?

Addy Diaz [00:17:26]:
Yeah. For sure. So for the first people, the people that say that, oh, I'm not a great listener. Great. Join the club. It's a muscle that we have to strengthen like anything else. We're we're always working to be a better listener to be more engaged. Really, it comes from a point of curiosity.

Addy Diaz [00:17:40]:
Are we are we growing in our curiosity for the person? And we can never be complete in our in our curiosity for a situation. So it is it is a muscle that we have to work and to strengthen and to continue continually get better at. And then to that group of people that says, well, it's just listening, I would invite you to think about a moment where you were received really well in a story, in your story sharing something deeply or even just something exciting. You were really excited about your birthday and the two fruit trees that you just bought, and then no one recited, responded positively. What was that like for you? Even if the person said that they were listening, like, you can you can just tell when there's that not that connection there.

Pat Millea [00:18:18]:
Mhmm.

Addy Diaz [00:18:18]:
And so, we active listening is more than just sitting there and absorbing. It's responding as well in that listening.

Pat Millea [00:18:26]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:18:27]:
Because as I'm listening to Addy, I'm getting this sense that active listening really invites the speaker to to unfold their story more, like, to entrust more to me, to show that that I am engaged and I am, like, a worthy recipient of this beautiful story. Like you said, not just hard things. I think sometimes we think active listening comes with hard things. I think for me sometimes, it's hard for me to celebrate and champion my friends in their joy and, like, to really be present with them, especially if I'm coming from, like, maybe a sour, icky, hard Yeah. Place or season in life. And so there's there's that willful active listening to, when there's good stuff going on. But but, ultimately, in either yeah. Whether it's the good or the hard of life, it's that invitation of, like, come come deeper, like, step into this.

Kenna Millea [00:19:15]:
Yes. And and maybe even for the listener to be having their own insight new insights and revelations because of sharing and, like, giving their life story.

Pat Millea [00:19:25]:
Mhmm. I'm I'm thinking of all the situations where, it is probably difficult for people to listen actively. And that that's difficult for me, you know. Like, maybe there's there's silly examples but maybe there's like content that I'm not super thrilled about. So it's hard for me to get passionate about that. Right? Like some of our kids are really excited about Pokemon and Pokemon cards. I couldn't possibly care less about any of these things. I don't wanna learn.

Pat Millea [00:19:50]:
I'm not interested. I don't care to get on board with what you're telling me, but I've had to learn to be an active listener with things that they are passionate about because it's important to them and even though it's not to me. Right? I can think of all the folks over the years who parents who love their teenage kids but just have a really hard time connecting with them. Yeah. And, maybe some of that is teenagers that that are not as forthcoming with details about their life as they were when they were seven eight nine years old. But maybe it's a difficulty for the parents as well to listen to their teenagers, and not jump in with like fixing problems or correcting behaviors or or things like that. Right? And maybe it's just you know even as adults I think with each other there can be a lot of kind of unspoken stuff that happens in communication. So maybe someone sharing something that's really hard and I don't have much empathy because in the back of my mind I'm like you brought that on yourself come on like get over it.

Pat Millea [00:20:44]:
Yeah it just there's all kinds of examples like that. I guess how have you at a scene active listening really serve your clients and the people that you interact with kind of day to day? How has it helped them flourish?

Addy Diaz [00:20:58]:
Yeah. Well, it's really interesting that you bring up that point because it is the hardest, I think, to be active listening to the people that I'm closest to because I know so much about their story already. Right? And so that's where we lose that objectivity of, well, I know that that's a habit in your life or I know you know what I mean? Like, we as a counselor, I get to you come in, it is a

Addy Diaz [00:21:21]:
clean palette. I I am just taking in the information that you're giving me. I don't actually know all the other details of the story. You might actually be the bad guy in the story. I don't know. But I get to just receive the information, and, actually, I'm not really even that worried about the information. I'm worried about, like, what are you feeling and what is the meaning that you are taking from the situation. So I've seen it be active listening be, a powerful tool in the role of clinician because there is that objectivity.

Pat Millea [00:21:52]:
Mhmm.

Addy Diaz [00:21:52]:
I'm not a part of the trauma that you experienced. I am not in your family system. And so I am not being pulled in a certain direction necessarily, or I shouldn't be pulled in a certain direction as I'm hearing your story.

Kenna Millea [00:22:04]:
So are you saying then that in in our, maybe, most intimate relationships, part of active listening is recovering that objectivity, like recovering that sense of a little bit of distance and and letting go maybe of the pieces of the story that we do know kind of the context, and really being able to receive the person, like, in the moment of, oh my gosh. Like, you're telling me this is true for you. Like, I'm taking it at face value.

Addy Diaz [00:22:28]:
Yes. Yep. Absolutely. And this is something that I work with with clients is kind of the layers of someone's story. So I like to draw this picture and I I think we'll post it in the show notes as well. Absolutely. But I like to kinda draw this picture of we can think of, someone's story as the layers of the earth. So we have the content is the grass, and it's really easy to see the grass.

Addy Diaz [00:22:48]:
It's really easy to focus on the grass, and we could stay there forever. But we need to move deeper. And when we go down into the soil, we can see the feelings of the person. And going even further than that is getting to the bedrock or getting to, like, those big boulders that are actually informing the person's experience. I could have five different clients come to me and tell me about a time when they were bullied in school or something like this, and the feelings might be different, completely different. And the boulders, the the meaning behind that situation, they could all be five different boulders even if they're the same bullying experience. So when we're engaging in conversation with someone, when we're actively listening, and I encourage us especially when we're talking with teenagers because there's gonna be a lot of content that we might not even agree with. Like, well, yeah, let's talk about the moral implications of that or something.

Addy Diaz [00:23:34]:
You know what I mean? What I really encourage with teenagers is do not focus on the grass right now. As they are engaging in conversation with you, really strive for those boulders. And then if there's a concern for their well-being or their, you know, whatever they're engaging in, We can talk about that later. But right now, they really just want you to see their boulders.

Kenna Millea [00:23:54]:
Well, because the only thing too is the the like, if you want to influence someone's grass, if you

Kenna Millea [00:24:00]:
want to influence their content, like, you need deeper trust. And and for them to feel like you've seen their boulders and not rejected the meaning of the story, their feelings, right, all that deeper stuff, you're gonna have a way higher likelihood of being able to influence their grass and how they attend to their grass. Yes. So I love that visual. I mean, it it also feels like it connects well with our garden metaphor that we talk about in our boundaries episode and certainly our our process and content episode too. That's what I'm really getting out of this. Addy is, like, active listening is training yourself to be able to see past the content Yes. And further into the process of, like, what is it like to be you Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:24:40]:
In this situation that you're telling me about. Yeah. So again, we'll link up both that visual, but also the other episodes that this links up to in our show notes today.

Pat Millea [00:24:48]:
It's a really interesting concept, the idea of of detaching from the information, so I can be more attached to the person. Yeah. Because it's so easy to to get bogged down by the content like you're talking about and it does create that distance from the person, which is not what I want, it's not what I desire, but it's so tempting It's probably easier in some ways to stay in the content and to not really dig into someone's feelings or even more deeply their their boulders, their experiences, their values, their kind of bedrock childhood moments, things like that. But what if I really what I really desire deep down is connection with the person, it's not gonna serve me to stay in that content. And it's so tempting because the content does matter, like we Yeah. We are people of morality and we do want our our children and our spouses and our friends to live lives of virtue and to avoid sin. So so there's a point to come back to that like you're saying, Addy, but to not just live in that space and miss the person in front of you in the midst of it.

Addy Diaz [00:25:49]:
Yep. Absolutely. It creates an awareness for yourself too as you're noticing, is the message, oh, I'm I'm a bad parent as your teen is saying something. If that's coming up for you being able to put that aside, you know, like, recognizing what is this bringing up in me and what can I, like, maybe process later in on my own time with that, but I don't need that to impact my receiving of the person in front of me?

Kenna Millea [00:26:11]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. Definitely. Definitely. And I I think too to go back to what you were saying around, like, this is hardest with those that we are with the most. Yeah. I think we make a lot of assumptions.

Kenna Millea [00:26:23]:
We fill in the blanks. We you know, there's subtext under it. Like, I hear my husband say this. What I'm actually hearing is this. Mhmm. Or, you know, like you said earlier, he's upset about this thing. And in my head, I'm like, well, but I know you contribute to it like this. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:26:37]:
And so so yeah. Are are there some guidelines or some really concrete kind of rules that you could give us Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:26:45]:
of the road to to begin practicing this?

Addy Diaz [00:26:47]:
Yes. Absolutely. So I have a list of do's and don'ts, and we're gonna we're gonna post these as well. Mhmm. But my first I'm gonna start with the don't, and then we'll we can move to the do's maybe. But the first don't is do not bring the story back to you. This is not a normal conversation. If you're just passing by, you're, like, ships in the night, whatever.

Addy Diaz [00:27:04]:
That's not what I'm talking about. But when someone is sharing their story with you, do not if they're like, okay, my my grandpa just passed away, it is not your turn to share about your grandpa passing away twenty years ago or whatever it was. That immediately takes the spotlight off of the person sharing their story, and it can communicate, oh, okay. So we're done with me now? You you know, like, oh, we get to talk about you and I get to comfort you now. So do not bring the story back to you. Instead, ask questions, reflect that feeling that maybe they're experiencing, like, wow, this must be really this is a really sad season for you or, you know, whatever it is. Or reflect the meaning, reflect those boulders. Like, I know that this is maybe a a deeper wound for you of, like, not feeling worthy or, feeling like you've been abandoned.

Addy Diaz [00:27:50]:
And I'm really sorry that this is happening for you. And kind of pushing it I I almost envision this as, like, you're playing ball. Like, you're you're tossing ball with the person that's talking. And maybe that's a distinction from kind of the the top of the episode of, active listening is not just someone throwing a ball at you and you're just receiving, you're not just catching the ball, but you're throwing the ball back. And so what is the what are you doing to toss the ball back to them as they're sharing that story with you? If you hold the ball and you say this is my experience of grief, okay, okay, well then the game is over and we're not playing ball anymore. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:28:22]:
Yeah. No. I like that visual too.

Pat Millea [00:28:23]:
Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And I I can think of all kinds of times where I've done that. I know that especially in, like, retreat leading ministry settings, like, that is a a big skill that a small group discussion leader needs to really get comfortable with is not just turning it into an advice session, you know.

Addy Diaz [00:28:42]:
Yes. Yes.

Pat Millea [00:28:42]:
And especially with with again parents and teenagers in particular, parents and maybe young adult children that temptation is really hard because because for and the parents are looking at it objectively and it makes sense and it's logical. I have been there. Right. You know, and how many parents have told the kid like I was 16 once too, you know, things like that. I've been there, I can see the way out of this box that you this corner that you've painted yourself into, so let me give you the way out. And as much as a teenager or a young adult certainly wants solutions at some point when they are telling me something that's heavy on their heart or some a bad situation they've gotten themselves into. What they really want is to know that they're not alone in it now. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:29:27]:
And we can deal with the consequences of the solution later on. So just like you said, kind of throwing the ball back in terms of helping them to uncover, to open up a little bit more, to be more aware of what's going on in their own life

Kenna Millea [00:29:40]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:29:40]:
So that they can get to a place of of looking for solutions down the road.

Addy Diaz [00:29:45]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Adam Young talks about this in a podcast about engaging. He does a lot of story work. That's what a lot of his podcasts are is on. But he talks about how engaging someone's story is kind of like the passion, the resurrection, and the ascension of Christ, and how we really so quickly wanna move from someone's passion to someone's resurrection. And, kind of, thinking about that image as you're sitting there as a small group leader, or as you're sitting there with a parent engaging your child, or even with your spouse, like, whoever you're sitting across from, we see, oh, my gosh, you're carrying a cross. I don't want to feel the weight of this.

Addy Diaz [00:30:18]:
I'm gonna do whatever I can because this is uncomfortable for me. No one likes sitting in that yuck. And so what do we do to try and get that person quickly to the resurrection? And he Adam's point is we need to sit in that that passion with them. That's your role as an active listener, is to just sit there. To be the assignment of ceremony. Yeah. Just to sit there. Eventually, you're going to see the resurrection.

Addy Diaz [00:30:41]:
Eventually, your teen will come to you and ask for that advice that you are so excited to share with them. They'll they'll come to you and they will ask for that. You don't have to just so that, you know, give it to them. But, yeah, we are called to be that Simon in these in these conversations. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:30:58]:
Well, and I I think about in my own clinical work how many of my adult clients are working on healing wounds from childhood of experiences of of being told you're not worth the work. You're not worth the weight. You're not worth the discomfort of sitting with you in your hurt Yeah. In your brokenness, in your woundedness. And and so I'm thinking about just how, like, deeply, like, this is being Christ to one another, of, like, communicating implicitly this message of, like, you are worth it. Like, this is hard. It is hard for me to be with you in this. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:31:36]:
And you are worth it. Like, I'm gonna do it. Not perfectly. It's not gonna be pretty. I'll probably be clumsy about it, but I'm gonna do it because I love you and because you're worth it. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:31:44]:
Does that look like I'm trying to sort through, like, what what that would look like in the flesh. So, like, if the options are I either am connected to you deeply and I sit with you in the difficulty of your life or I don't wanna sit with the difficulty so I am choosing to not be deeply connected to you that people feel like they've experienced the latter in their lives?

Kenna Millea [00:32:07]:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I I do it all the time to our kids in hopefully seemingly innocuous little things, but I think it builds up. Like, the other day, a kid one of our kids told me how bummed he was that we weren't gonna do, like, this experience he wanted to do over the weekend. He wanted to play hockey. And his best friend in school plays hockey. He's like, when do I get to play hockey? And I was like, we just don't do hockey.

Kenna Millea [00:32:28]:
I was like, too expensive, too much time, can't do it. Instead of going, yeah, bud. Tell me about that. What do you think sounds exciting about hockey? Like like, I was too afraid to let his mind go there Yeah. For fear of, like, it'll cause him more pain when at the end of the day, I say, sorry. We don't have that in the budget or, you know, the schedule, like, to to to be with him and to let him share with me. Like, he's already got lots of dreams about playing hockey, and me inviting him to to know that to to be known in the midst of those. Like, that, I would say, is the matter.

Kenna Millea [00:32:59]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:33:00]:
You know, it doesn't mean that I change my mind. It doesn't mean, oh, good good argument. Dad and I will find the thousands of dollars to send you to hockey camp. But, like, but more to be like, oh, man. Yeah. I can see that. You've got so many ideas about it that that's a good, and

Kenna Millea [00:33:14]:
that's what makes relationship. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:33:16]:
That's awesome. That's great. Hit me with the next one.

Addy Diaz [00:33:18]:
Yeah. For sure. So, actually these other ones are kind of adding on to that because I'm thinking of the practicals of like what would be some images of someone dismissing someone trying to head to the resurrection.

Pat Millea [00:33:27]:
Sure.

Addy Diaz [00:33:27]:
And so, the second one is saying at least, Brene Brown talks about this in her video, her empathy video. So good. It's so good. It's so ripe. But I I always say to groups, I've never heard anyone being healed because they said someone said at least. Like, at least you still have a job. At least you have kids. At least whatever it is.

Pat Millea [00:33:48]:
Oh, you're right. I feel so much better.

Addy Diaz [00:33:50]:
Yeah. I feel supersede. Thank you so much. Do not so just being mindful of that. Like, I'm not gonna hate you if you say it, but just being mindful of, like, oh, I just heard myself say at least. We're trying to move to that resurrection. We're trying to do that that golden, lining on their situation, and that's actually not what they need. Instead, we can affirm how they might be feeling again of, you know, like, if you came to me and said, I just ex you know, someone close to me just really passed away, and I'm really, like, I I'm feeling some resentment actually towards that person.

Addy Diaz [00:34:21]:
Instead of saying, well, I mean, at least you had the last year with them in hospice or at least you you whatever it was saying, yeah, you know what? Resentment is normal. Like, that it makes sense. Can you tell me more about that? Affirming, like, how they're feeling instead of passing it on. Another thing with grief can I just get my collapsible soapbox out really quick? Another another thing about grief that I just gets me going, is when people use, like, Hallmark cards or Hobby Lobby pillows as their dismissal to the resurrection of, like, well, God has a plan. Or Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:34:55]:
Everything happens for a reason.

Addy Diaz [00:34:56]:
Everything happens for a reason. If it's on a I I say this to clients. I'm like, if it is on a Hobby Lobby pillowcase, you are not allowed to say it to someone close to me

Addy Diaz [00:35:06]:
Because it is so dismissing. It's insane.

Pat Millea [00:35:08]:
So I should stop saying live laugh love to people?

Addy Diaz [00:35:12]:
Exactly. Exactly. To all those 12 year old boys that

Pat Millea [00:35:16]:
are like

Pat Millea [00:35:16]:
Dang it. Come on, guys. Live laugh love.

Addy Diaz [00:35:18]:
Live laugh love. Exactly.

Kenna Millea [00:35:19]:
You lost in the playoffs. Yes. Gosh. It was a good one.

Pat Millea [00:35:21]:
I wonder why they looked at me funny. It looks so weird. Yeah. I I the this is a weird, like, scene and memory, but it's a very visceral one that, I immediately thought of. We tried to watch the award winning movie Tree of Life years ago. Have you seen this movie? Do you know what this is? It is a totally weird off the wall movie. But it appear is apparently like very rich with like spiritual meaning and depth and we just could not get into it. It was too much.

Pat Millea [00:35:53]:
You won't even remember it because it was so weird. It was there there's like this is no exaggeration. Somewhere in the middle of the movie, it's about, like, a mom and her family and stuff for a while. But then there's, like, a ten minute montage of just, like, the creation of the earth. So there's like dinosaurs and stuff rolling around in the middle of the movie. It is I literally do not remember. It's off the wall. But at some point in the movie that I did understand, there's a family with kind of a, like, very stereotypical fifties kind of absent, you know, father who's not really present with the family and the mom who's kind of over encumbered with the duties of the family life, things like that.

Pat Millea [00:36:35]:
They have a few kids. One of the children is swimming in like the swimming hole off like on the outside of town and drowns and dies swimming. And there's just a little two second scene where a neighbor says at least you've got other kids. It's y'know

Pat Millea [00:36:51]:
it's okay. And, like, again, I remember nothing about the movie except that we turned it off because we didn't understand it. But that scene was just so cutting and so, like, emotionally violent to me that I still think about it all the time. And, you know, it is probably rare that people say things that dismissive and abrupt. Well, I'm not a therapist, so you tell me. But but it just it I can see how that is so wounding for folks.

Kenna Millea [00:37:17]:
Oh, but that's a good, like, metaphor for, like, that's what that's the kind of thing we're doing when we use the phrase at least. Also, just a funny sidebar. One of our kids the other day, I was going over a test with him that he kind of uncharacteristically did really poorly on, and we were trying to understand, like, where what happened? What went wrong? Yeah. And so I show it to him, and he got, like, a d plus. And he was, at least it wasn't an f, mom.

Pat Millea [00:37:38]:
I was like, okay. No. That's not how we're doing this.

Pat Millea [00:37:42]:
All the teenagers over the years that

Pat Millea [00:37:44]:
were, like, well, I didn't kill anybody. Yeah. Like,

Pat Millea [00:37:47]:
Yeah. Here's your trophy. Congratulations. Yes. Exactly.

Addy Diaz [00:37:50]:
Exactly. Well, okay. Another classic movie moment that maybe captures this. This is for all of my millennial friends out there that watch Disney Channel. But in Prince's Diaries, the first one, did you are you, no. I'm unfamiliar. Not connoisseur.

Pat Millea [00:38:02]:
We are the oldest end of the millennials. Yeah.

Addy Diaz [00:38:05]:
Okay.

Pat Millea [00:38:05]:
I love

Pat Millea [00:38:05]:
that you and I are the same generation because it's an insult to you that they lump us all together. But that was after our time.

Addy Diaz [00:38:11]:
I'm in a weird bridge, like, I don't know if I'm millennial or Gen Z. I'm not sure. So, anyway, but in this movie, there's a classic scene and there's like memes about it now of when Lily and, oh, no. They're gonna kill me. What's the main characters

Pat Millea [00:38:24]:
They're gonna take your millennial card.

Pat Millea [00:38:25]:
I know. You know. You are Gen Z'er.

Addy Diaz [00:38:27]:
I know. I know. Well, the princess, whoever she is. Oh, Mia. Hello. Mia. When Mia is, like, she's grieving her dad and Lily is, like, wasn't that, like, three months ago? Aren't shouldn't she be over that by now? And there's memes about it, like, how terrible of a friend are you that your friend just lost her dad and it's three months and all that. But this is, like, a very extreme example of truly what is out there.

Kenna Millea [00:38:50]:
Yeah.

Addy Diaz [00:38:50]:
And it leads me to my next bullet point. This was not planned. I did not know if we were talking about Prince's diaries today. But, the the third don't is minimizing the experience. So even if you're hearing this is for kids and adults alike. Even if you're hearing from someone, something that you're like, but I do that every day. Or, like, it's something that I've experienced many times and it has not impacted me that way. It does not matter.

Addy Diaz [00:39:14]:
Everyone experience with anything is different. Our window of tolerance might be smaller. Our, like, our ability to handle the stress is maybe smaller or something. But we are, again, going to that bedrock. We're going to those boulders, not to the content of whatever it was that was happening. Maybe that grass looks the same for us as it does for them, and it's hitting in completely different boulder. So what whenever someone is sharing an experience with you, if we minimize it, boom, we've just ended the the ballgame. Instead, we can affirm how this experience affected them.

Addy Diaz [00:39:46]:
So, again, just affirming those feelings or affirming that meaning or even asking, like, what does that experience mean to you? If you're having a hard time empathizing with the grass, what does that experience mean to you? What what stood out to you about that experience? And that can really help you maybe cut into that level of empathy

Pat Millea [00:40:01]:
Yeah. With them.

Kenna Millea [00:40:02]:
And I I say it here all the time and so it's a dead horse. I'm just gonna bring it in one more time. But the question of what is it like to be you? It to me is like the if you don't know what to say, but you get the sense that you are in an active listening type situation. Right? Because we're not talking about, like, grocery store clerk or, you know, teacher at parent pickup, kind of a situation. But but if you sense, I'm in an active listening situation. I don't know what to do, what to say, how to be, how to feel in this, to just, yeah, lob that ball back and be like, what is it like to be you? And give that person the permission to say, like, I am open to hearing whatever. I think it takes the pressure off of, like, I'm supposed to fix this. You know, the minimizing is, like, well, this is, like like you said, this is how we get to the resurrection.

Kenna Millea [00:40:48]:
Like, this is how we close-up the tomb and move on. So so to be able to, just let them be in the driver's seat about it. Yeah. It's tough. It's vulnerable. And also, it's what engenders greater connection.

Pat Millea [00:41:02]:
So here's my question for you, Addy, and also maybe for you too, Kenna, is I'm picturing lots of situations where where it's important and crucial to empathize with what somebody's experience is right now. Even if it is something that you do three times a day, like you said.

Kenna Millea [00:41:21]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:41:21]:
And at the same time, to help them maybe move in the direction of greater resilience, greater toughness, being able to not be thrown off kilter by things that are like comparatively minor if there's even a scale, which there's really not. So, like, I I remember, there have been times kinda where you've talked about situations where, there have been, people that you've worked with where they've been complaining about how difficult a job is and they're in a job that they hate and they complain about all the time and you have, you know, done the active listening thing of like getting to the the the feelings and even the bedrock beneath that, but at a certain point that you've felt it prudent and helpful to say, that's fine. Just stay in this job for twenty years. See how that goes for you. Right?

Addy Diaz [00:42:07]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:42:07]:
So like so I I don't think that you can start with that because that is terribly dismissive. But where where is the line then of like, okay, so active listening says that I'm gonna be empathetic, I'm gonna be compassionate, I'm not gonna criticize how how difficult this is just because I don't think it's a big deal at all. When does it or how and when does it flip to like, alright, we're gonna have a more honest open conversation to help you just be a little tougher.

Addy Diaz [00:42:36]:
Yeah. You can go for it, please.

Kenna Millea [00:42:38]:
Well, first of all, the I think it begs the question of, like, does this person want my feedback? Like, are they even open to my insight? I may very well be able to string the pieces together of, like, you've been miserable for eight years in this job. Like, are you not seeing it? Like, every time we get together, you, you know, are bellyaching about your boss, bellyaching about the industry, you know, the finances, whatever. But if they're not open, if they've given me no indication that they desire my feedback, then me sharing it, no matter how much my intention is to, like, help them toughen up or help them be more resilient. Like, it is going to land on deaf ears at minimum, but at maximum, like, maybe be really wounding and and isolating, which maybe I'm really fed up and I want that. I don't know. But, but but I think that question of, like, is that a role that they want me to be in? I might even ask that, to be honest. Like, I might even say Sure. You know, we've been friends for a really long time, and, like, the whole time you've been in this job, like, you know, I have some thoughts.

Kenna Millea [00:43:41]:
Is that something you wanna hear from me? Like, to be that open. I think, again, it comes after the act of listening. But really, like, to ask yourself, like, have they given me any indication that they want my influence in this at all?

Pat Millea [00:43:55]:
And just because they're telling you about how difficult this thing is, you're saying that doesn't automatically mean that they want your feedback on something to do about it.

Kenna Millea [00:44:03]:
Right.

Pat Millea [00:44:03]:
Okay. Right. Gotcha.

Addy Diaz [00:44:04]:
Like Father Mike Schmitz says that, any advice that is not asked for is considered criticism. So, we can we can have the golden plan for someone's life, as a therapist or as a friend or whatever. And if they're not open to it, oh, well, why are you telling me I need to go to a different job? Or, like, oh, you think that I should be doing this in my life? What does that? If they're not open to it, it's not gonna be received at all. So waiting, I love that. I and I use that in friendships too of, like, do you want my opinion on this? Are you interested? What do you need right now? Would that be helpful?

Pat Millea [00:44:35]:
Yeah.

Addy Diaz [00:44:36]:
Something else that kinda comes to mind too is that, when we use it in our line of work in the biz, is the the miracle question of what what is the dream scenario? If you could have your dream tomorrow, what would that be?

Pat Millea [00:44:49]:
Mhmm.

Addy Diaz [00:44:50]:
And it kinda gives them that battle for initiative as well of, oh, well, I would actually like to be in a job that does this, this, and this. Okay. Are you what would it take for you to get there? And they get to come up with the thing. I think that's really freeing as a clinician. We're not allowed to give advice. We're not allowed to tell them where they should go in their life because we actually don't exactly know. Like, we love we would love to tell them where we think they should go, but that might not actually be the best thing for them. And so, I guess, yeah, long story short, I those are some things, like, asking for that permission, asking for that openness to, like, can I give you my thoughts on this? And using that giving them that drive of using that miracle question, to see just where they where they're feeling called to go.

Pat Millea [00:45:31]:
Yeah. And that feels like a really brilliant and prudent way to not give advice, to not impose my thoughts on their situation, but to to invite them to reflect a little bit more deeply on the content of their situation so they can be a little more active in making decisions about what to do with their life. Right? That, you know, if if your marriage was going to be better, what would be different? Mhmm. What what is in your control? What would you be able to do to move in that direction? That that that feels like a good healthy both and, I think.

Kenna Millea [00:46:03]:
Yeah. Well, and also just another thought I'm having, Pat, in our own life, something that I feel like we have gotten better about, and by we, I mean me, because it was always my problem and not really yours. But, is because I do like to fix things for you, And I do always have ideas about how to reduce your stress and to make your relationships more harmonious.

Pat Millea [00:46:21]:
And the problem is sometimes you're right. Brilliant. So then you get convinced that you're always right.

Kenna Millea [00:46:26]:
It's a self fulfilling prophecy. But something I'm learning now is when you are so recently, the most most recent episode was like, you were really struggling with the three little girls and, and just their behavior and feeling like they sass and talk back and whatever. And so you were sharing with me the frustration. I was trying to actively listen. I don't you can tell me how well I did that. But, but, like, hours later after it was done and I sensed, like again, because this is an intimate relationship Mhmm. I sensed that things were kind of cooling, and, hopefully, you would release some of your angst by sharing it with me. I came back and I said to you, hey.

Kenna Millea [00:47:05]:
I do have some thoughts about things that seem to be going well with the little girls lately.

Pat Millea [00:47:11]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:47:11]:
Would you like to hear them? You know? And I know other people I've heard other marriages talk about, like, is this a coachable moment, which sounds a little condescending to me. But Right. But but I get it. Like, it's asking that permission. And so I think even, like, maybe you're listening and you're like, in my marriage, I would ask, like, are you open to my input? Like, what the heck is a marriage? If not, like, a place where we're doing this together? And it's like, yeah.

Pat Millea [00:47:32]:
I'll tell you.

Kenna Millea [00:47:32]:
Even in a marriage, you get to ask, are you open to my input? So that's just a a phrase that I'm really working on of, like, hey. Is this a moment that I can share with you something that I'm figuring out, and to be shoulder to shoulder in it with you versus like this condescending, like, I've got it figured out and I'm gonna let you in on my trade secrets.

Pat Millea [00:47:52]:
Right. Right. I love that. I love that. Yeah.

Addy Diaz [00:47:55]:
Can I give a more practical or not a more practical, another practical example of that too, is I get really cautious about this when it comes to people dating, the dating relationships? And do you want my opinion on the person that you're dating? Because if I tell you, I really think you should break up with this person and you went and actually did it, and then you'd but you weren't completely bought in, you're no longer gonna trust my decision or, like, my my judgment on this relationship. I my friends, I trust that they are in a good enough place that, you know, like, they're gonna they're gonna see the red flags if they need to. And, of course, if it's, like, an abusive situation, that's different. But if it's, like, this guy isn't, like, a % in, or, like, this girl's a little bit I'm not sure about her. I let them get to that point and come to me and say, what are your thoughts? I've had a bad experience with that where it actually was, like, not a great experience or, like, it wasn't a great guy. And in trying to intervene and trying to say, this guy isn't good for you, this guy isn't good for you, was cut off and then wasn't able to, like, stand up for her. So that's kind of an extreme example. But this it goes to that general, you're dealing with someone, or you're you're standing up for someone in a relationship.

Addy Diaz [00:49:08]:
They're not gonna receive you if they are still, like, glittery eyed in that, that magenta haze or whatever. Lavender haze, the lavender haze that Taylor Swift talks about. If they are in their lavender haze, they are not gonna receive your thoughts about that relationship. They They kinda need to come to that themselves. Mhmm. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:49:25]:
And that's a tricky one too because even the question, do you wanna hear my opinion about the person you're dating?

Addy Diaz [00:49:33]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:49:33]:
My my sense is that no one asks that question if they only have positive things to say. Right? Yes. Yes. Exactly. So then it comes into, like, the the nuance of, like, how do I even ask the question in a way that's not critical and Right. Kind of condescending. But but that's a really good kind of specific case to be

Addy Diaz [00:49:50]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:49:50]:
Attentive to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Addy Diaz [00:49:52]:
Are you ready for some more don'ts?

Pat Millea [00:49:53]:
Let's go.

Addy Diaz [00:49:54]:
Okay. Great. So we're gonna I can rapid fire through these because these are some more practical ones that, like, yeah, we should just do, we should just know. But a little reminder for you is, one, do not look at your phone or do get rid of distractions. This also goes for, like, Apple watches. I don't think we think about this, but it's such a mindless thing. You get a notification. You look up at your Apple Watch.

Addy Diaz [00:50:14]:
As soon as you break eye contact from me, I'm such a sensitive little teddy bear. As soon as you break eye contact from me, I am like, oh, we're done. We're done with this conversation. So especially especially for parents working with kids and teens, they see that too. I'm putting even to say like, I'm gonna put this down and I wanna give you my full attention on this. We need to get rid of we need to get rid of distractions.

Pat Millea [00:50:38]:
They've done studies and, they've done studies that have shown that if if you and I are in a conversation talking to each other if my phone is on the table next to me you implicitly get the sense that I am waiting for something more important to do than talk

Pat Millea [00:50:52]:
to you.

Addy Diaz [00:50:53]:
Oh, that's so gross.

Pat Millea [00:50:54]:
Which is

Pat Millea [00:50:55]:
I believe

Pat Millea [00:50:56]:
true and so harsh. Yeah. It's so difficult. Right? And the the the the the guy that I heard describe it say, and no, it is not better if your phone is upside down.

Pat Millea [00:51:05]:
Right. Yes.

Pat Millea [00:51:06]:
But that's the thing. Like, if oh, no. This is a serious conversation. I'll flip it upside down. Right? Yeah. No. If if the phone is there, we both have the visual cue that you're waiting for a better option.

Kenna Millea [00:51:16]:
Yeah. That's

Addy Diaz [00:51:17]:
such a good point.

Kenna Millea [00:51:18]:
Ugh. I'm grossed out because I do it all the time. Like and I'm like, yeah. How often am I communicating that message? Yeah. They're gone. Yeah. What else you got?

Addy Diaz [00:51:25]:
Okay. Do not lie down or face away. Like, do not just be be in a very active position when you are listening to someone. The do for this is mirror the person's body. We do this actively in the clinician's office all the time. If you if you are, like, relaxed, laid back, you know, like, I'm mirroring your body position, and it just helps the person feel, even if they're not thinking about it, to feel seen and to feel understood. So, yeah, have an active physical position. And then my last don't is do not educate.

Addy Diaz [00:51:58]:
This kinda goes back to the small group leader, conversation, but this is for everybody. Do not educate. I love this point, especially in the world of, like, theology. So whoever you're talking about says and that's the content. The grass is something theological, and you're like, well, actually, this is how this is the real theological premise for this. Do not educate. It's going back to that, like, we have to be open to that criticism or back, open to that feedback. Instead, use your right brain, touch into your emotions, and try and understand what is that that rock that they're actually, coming from.

Addy Diaz [00:52:39]:
And then later, if you have a relationship with them and they're open to that feedback, then you can say, like, hey. Have you ever just considered how the catechism says this thing about this topic?

Pat Millea [00:52:50]:
Mhmm.

Addy Diaz [00:52:50]:
But that is, my dear friends, not going to land if it's the first time that they're opening up to you and they're actually like, we're not actually worried about the theology. We're worried about what is it that's hitting them in this story.

Pat Millea [00:53:02]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. The truth definitely matters and the truth doesn't change. But if someone is coming to you or me with a spiritual crisis or a spiritual question, doubt, what they're probably not asking for in that moment is an answer to a question. What they're probably asking for is presence and attentiveness

Pat Millea [00:53:23]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:53:23]:
In the midst of their doubt and their fear and their anxiety. Mhmm. And like you said, there there probably is a great answer to that question

Addy Diaz [00:53:32]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:53:32]:
But that comes at question time, not at I'm scared time.

Addy Diaz [00:53:37]:
Yes. Totally. Mhmm. Mhmm. And a hard example of this one too is, like, when someone, experiencing same sex attraction comes out to you,

Pat Millea [00:53:44]:
that

Addy Diaz [00:53:44]:
is not the time to be like, well, do you know what the church teaches about this? Like, are you living in a chaste situation? No. Do not. Please do not do that. You're closing that door. They already know. They already know what the church is teaching, or they already know, like, people's judgments or thoughts about that is. Mhmm. They are likely scared, like you just said.

Addy Diaz [00:54:00]:
They're they're likely scared. They're likely experiencing, a whole plethora of emotions, and that's what we get to tap into. You need to set any thoughts that you have about that aside, or any big of the any of these big topics. Someone just had an abortion, any of these things do not educate, you're gonna shut down that relationship and they're not gonna feel seen.

Kenna Millea [00:54:19]:
Yeah. Yeah. If if that's not your role. Right? If you're not teaching a class on morality Right. To a to a high school group or, you know, in a in a youth group situation, to really yeah. I'm just hearing this as, like, know your role. Like, know know what it is that's being asked of you. And when someone is sharing, the role is one of active listener.

Addy Diaz [00:54:39]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:54:40]:
And so you you put on that hat. It comes with these guidelines. You know, that, Addy, you've beautifully laid out for us, very concretely laid out for us. But that is the role. And it's possible that in the future, there will be a different role for you. And right now, this is the one that you find yourself in. And there's discomfort with that, and that's why we're not knocking it out of the park, you know, every time. There's a death to self that comes with that because, you know what, morality is really, like, this comfortable security blanket for me a lot of times.

Kenna Millea [00:55:10]:
Right? Like, there there's something about truth, capital t, that, like, really helps me feel safe. And so in a moment where I'm like, and someone I love shares something difficult or controversial or however you wanna put it, I reach for that safety blanket. I reach for that sense of security Mhmm. Instinctively, and and I'm not often always aware of how that puts an obstacle between me and this person Yeah. That's asking me to step in. I think we're gonna link up. We've used it before, but that lovely illustration that Brene Brown put together of what it is to empathize and going down into the hole, to be with someone. And it's risky.

Kenna Millea [00:55:47]:
It's hard. It's vulnerable. It it's so unknown, in each moment. And, yeah, we we need grace. We need the Holy Spirit to, like, go there and trust that we're gonna be okay.

Addy Diaz [00:55:58]:
We can

Kenna Millea [00:55:59]:
come up the other side with this. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:56:00]:
What's, what's a first step in terms of a challenge by choice then that you might throw out to folks to kind of gather up some of these do's and don'ts and and move in the right direction?

Addy Diaz [00:56:08]:
Yes. Absolutely. So if I was doing this in front of a group of people, what I always have them do after is, okay, I'm gonna set a timer for one minute and I want you to engage the person, find a partner, engage the person in conversation and you have to keep them talking for a minute. For some people this is really easy, especially if you get a talker. Actually, I've been talking to your partner. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:56:29]:
That's fair.

Addy Diaz [00:56:31]:
Yes. But for some people, that's really difficult because we hear, oh, I just brought my kids to the fair. Well, I have 20 stories about going to the fair. Let me tell you about them. Right? So that would be something that you could actively do is go out, with your spouse or with a friend or whoever, go into a social situation this week, and get the person next to you talking, getting engaged in some level of their story, maybe not their hardest thing they've ever gone through, and get them talking for a minute. And just see what you notice. Like, oh, I did say at least. Oh, I did bring it back to me.

Addy Diaz [00:57:03]:
I I'd noticed that that energy was lost in the conversation. And, okay, how can you adjust? There's no that's not shame in this. It's just that increasing that awareness of it.

Pat Millea [00:57:12]:
I love that. That's great. And to an extrovert like me, that sounds like so much fun. Yes. But I'll probably bring it back to myself if I do that. So I'm gonna work on that too.

Kenna Millea [00:57:21]:
We've we've all got things to work on, babe.

Pat Millea [00:57:24]:
Do you mind praying for us, my dear?

Kenna Millea [00:57:25]:
Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Come, Holy Spirit. Come, divine counselor, and find in our hearts a worthy home to dwell so that it may be you, God, who is alive in us, especially as we receive our brothers and sisters in Christ in their stories, in their joys, in their sorrows, whatever they bring to us that we can be attentive to them as Christ, that we can be open, to their experience and be not afraid of what it costs us to actively listen, to be empathetic, to be present, to be undistracted. God give us the crisis.

Kenna Millea [00:58:22]:
It's so hard. It it, yeah, it goes against some of our human instincts and some of the habits we formed. So, Lord, we need you, and we entrust this intention to you to help us to be better listeners, so that that we can be evangelizing. We can be bringing you, to those that we love, those that we encounter. We place this prayer request, and we place those that we love in your hands, Lord. Amen. In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Kenna Millea [00:58:58]:
Well, Addy Diaz, it is such a gift to finally have you here on This Whole Life, and we look forward to, yeah, having having your voice, having your wisdom, having your presence again with us next time. And to you listeners, as always, our gratitude to you for being invested in seeking sanity and sanctity with us. Stay along for the ride, thiswholelifepodcast.com. Find us on social media, Facebook, Instagram, @thiswholelifepodcast. And until next time, God bless. This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center for Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Addy Diaz [00:59:51]:
Also, elephant in the room, if I smell like onion, it's because I was this is what I wore to the thing last night, so I'm really sorry.