Ep70 Men's Relational Health: Relationship Roundtable

“Man becomes an image of God not so much in the moment of solitude as in the moment of communion.”
~ St. John Paul II

How do men connect with others?
What makes it hard for men to have strong marriages & friendships?
What can a man do to create healthier connections with others?

This special episode of This Whole Life is the first "Relationship Roundtable," tackling issues related to human connection and struggles in relationships. Pat Millea is joined by an outstanding panel of guests, including Ben Baker, John Braun, and Andy Norton, who dive into the vital topic of men's relational health. They explore what it looks like when men are truly connected with others—be it their wives, parents, children, friends, or coworkers. The episode unpacks the dynamics of honor, vulnerability, self-reliance, and the often-complicated nature of friendships. From pop culture references to real-life anecdotes, the conversation reveals both the strengths and pitfalls that men often face in relationships. Each guest offers insights from their own experiences, linking them to mental health and the Christian life. With practical steps and spiritual encouragement, they challenge men to take bold steps toward deeper and healthier connections. 

Whether you're a man seeking to improve your relationships or someone who loves one, this episode offers valuable perspectives and encouragement.

Episode 70 Show Notes

Chapters:

0:00: Intro & positive & negative examples of men connecting with others
18:22: When men are in healthy relationship with others
25:30: Self-reliance, withdrawing, & struggles for men in relationships
29:58: The cycle of shame in men
38:21: Relationship goals & reaching out for connection
45:41: Practical ways for men to foster healthy relationships
58:02: Challenge By Choice

Reflection Questions:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. When men are in healthy relationships, what are they doing well?
3. When men are struggling to be connected to others, what are the pitfalls or temptations?
4. How can men have strong, connected relationships while maintaining a sense of personal competence and strength?
5. Men: How can you reach out to someone for greater connection? Women: How can you support the men in your life with their relationships?

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Chapters

• 0:00 Intro & positive & negative examples of men connecting with others
• 18:22 When men are in healthy relationship with others
• 25:30 Self-reliance, withdrawing, & struggles for men in relationships
• 29:58 The cycle of shame in men
• 38:21 Relationship goals & reaching out for connection
• 45:41 Practical ways for men to foster healthy relationships
• 58:02 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Andy Norton [00:00:00]:
God sees me in my weakness, and he loves me there, and he wants to meet me there. And and I and I'm called to encounter others, my wife and my friends and everyone, in the midst of my weakness has been really freeing for me.

Pat Millea [00:00:17]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast along with my bride, Kenna, a licensed marriage and family therapist. This is the stuff she and I talk about all the time, doing dishes, in the car, on a date. We're excited to bring you this podcast for educational purposes. It's not therapy or a substitute for mental health care. So come on in, have a seat at our dining room table, and join the conversation with us. We are so glad you're here. Welcome back to This Whole Life ladies and gentlemen.

Pat Millea [00:01:13]:
Emphasis on the gentlemen because for the first time and I'm pretty sure the history of This Whole Life, it is a room of only men. That is not true. That's not true. Father Nathan and I once did an entire episode about mental health in the Marvel Cinematic Universe

Andy Norton [00:01:29]:
Right.

Pat Millea [00:01:29]:
Which I don't think any women listening have appreciated very much. But we loved it no matter what you thought. Today friends, we have the great pleasure of talking about men's relational health. When men are connected to other people, whether it's their wife, their parents, their kids, a best friend, what what goes well in men's connections to others and what are the pitfalls, the shortcomings, the the weaknesses and temptations in relationships with men and others. And we've got an amazing panel of wise and attractive men to share their wisdom with us today. Although if you don't look at the video version of the podcast, you just catch the wisdom and not the, handsomeness. Ben Baker, LMFT is a therapist here at the Martin Center for Integration with us. If you are a longtime listener, you might remember him from episode 24 where we talked about men and mental health.

Pat Millea [00:02:22]:
Ben, welcome aboard. Welcome back. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your your life, your family. What what what does your life look like nowadays?

Ben Baker [00:02:30]:
Yeah. I think since I was on the podcast last, we had a baby. So I am married. I have three girls, five, almost three and one. So life is full and busy, holding down the fort with the masculine gene at my house right now.

Pat Millea [00:02:46]:
I was gonna say, you bring the testosterone. That's right. That's right.

Ben Baker [00:02:51]:
So, yeah, that's that's kind of where life is at right now in a lot of ways. The warmer weather here in Minnesota, we've had a little spell recently. It's making me just, like, hunger for spring, which for me means baseball is right around the corner, which is, like, hope springs eternal. So I'm in a hopeful spot today.

Pat Millea [00:03:09]:
Excellent. Welcome to spring. Yeah. Yeah. It was like 60, 55 degrees yesterday, I think. I think what it was at ten days earlier, it was 70 degrees colder than that. Yeah. Or at least felt like that with the wind.

Andy Norton [00:03:21]:
It's just Yeah. It was.

Pat Millea [00:03:22]:
It's bananas. It's crazy. If it was 70 degrees hotter, it'd be a 30 degrees. So, awesome. Thanks. Glad you're back, Ben. New to the podcast, John Braun, another therapist with the Martin Center for Integration. Welcome aboard, brother.

Pat Millea [00:03:36]:
Can't wait to have you with us. Tell us a little bit about the Braun family and what you guys are up to.

John Braun [00:03:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks thanks for having me, Pat. Again, so my name is John Braun. I am married. I've got a two year old and a four year old, and they are both young, rambunctious, amazing young boys. So we've got a lot of testosterone in our family, and I personally am absolutely loving that. Between the the dirt and the taking things apart and the nerf guns all over the place, I I couldn't be happier.

John Braun [00:04:05]:
So yeah. Yeah. Just reveling in that and just having a young family and being married almost five years here.

Ben Baker [00:04:12]:
Mhmm.

John Braun [00:04:12]:
I'm getting excited to just celebrate that with my wife here. So Beautiful. Yeah. Life is good.

Pat Millea [00:04:17]:
I would love to see a side by side image of the toys from the Baker House and the toys from the Braun House because something tells me not a lot of overlap in that Venn diagram right there. That's so great. Oh my gosh. That's awesome. Great. Welcome John. So good to have you. Andy Norton, welcome back, my brother.

Pat Millea [00:04:37]:
Good to

Pat Millea [00:04:37]:
see you again.

Andy Norton [00:04:38]:
Good to be here.

Pat Millea [00:04:38]:
Andy is one of our very, talented and accomplished speakers with the Martin Center for Integration. So you get to go out into all kinds of parishes and organizations to talk about faith and mental health and sacraments and and all the good things that the Lord has has gifted you with. And, again, longtime listeners, right after Ben, we weren't done because Andy was in episode 25, talking about integrated pathfinding, how spouses can move in the right direction together hand in hand. Andy, what's new with you these days?

Andy Norton [00:05:08]:
Gosh. What's new? What's new? I've been re learning chess. Been picking up chess, again and playing with my boys. I've got two girls, two boys, and, the boys have been loving it. They have been, like, telling me that I'm just the best dad. They love me so much that I got them this chess board. So, yeah, they wake up at, like, 5:30AM. We go downstairs and and play, chess together before school.

Andy Norton [00:05:30]:
So that's been great. That's been the big thing for me. And again, also enjoying the weather. It's been great.

Pat Millea [00:05:36]:
Beautiful. I I can't think of anything I would like to do at 5:30 in the morning, but chess is really far even down that list. That that would be

Andy Norton [00:05:44]:
My no. My kids get up real early, and if there's a board game or now chess that they wanna play, I I I love it. I'm I'm happy to wake up that early and play with them. It's it's a joy to to be, you know, just in it with them and oh gosh. It's it's great. Although they make up a lot of new rules for chess. They don't like, the young the five year old doesn't necessarily follow all

Andy Norton [00:06:05]:
the rules. He was playing

Andy Norton [00:06:06]:
it almost like a like a Mario game. Like, they like they could bounce off each other and, like, do, like, combos. It was it was very cool.

Pat Millea [00:06:13]:
So That's pretty fantastic. There are many ways that I admire all of you as fathers, but that little thing where your children wake you up at 5:30 and and your brain says, sure, let's go play chess. I can't tell you the fury and rage that my children would receive if they woke me up at 5:30. That's so funny. For any reason at all even to like play a game that I genuinely enjoy I just man there are times that I am at my best and 5:30 in the morning is not one of those times. Yep. So well done. Good job, Andy.

Andy Norton [00:06:44]:
Thanks. Thanks. Happy happy to be here and, yeah. And especially in this company of these just very wise, guys. I I see myself as a POV character in this episode, you know. I sort of bring out more questions than answers and I'm excited to chat with you guys. So

Pat Millea [00:06:58]:
I love that that's your second video game reference in, like, four minutes. Cheers. No. There's no there's no limit. You do what you do. That's fine. I'm sure some guys that are listening will understand. The three of us, I don't know about you guys, but you the the POV went over my head.

Pat Millea [00:07:11]:
That's fine. That's Hey. Great to have you guys. Thanks for being here. Appreciate it. I always appreciate having my bride around, but it's great to be among brothers too. So appreciate your presence. Like I mentioned at the top, we get to talk about men's relational health today.

Pat Millea [00:07:27]:
What it means and what it looks like when men are connected well to other people. Ben, John, you guys have clinical experience of working with individuals, couples. So you see all kinds of different relational systemic ways that men relate to other people, whether it's in a marriage with their friends. Andy, you've been in in ministry for many, many years with FOCUS and with NET Ministries. You've been married. All all four of us are married. We've all got kind of anecdotal experience of friendships and families of origin and marriages and all that. I wanna start with this and partially for fun, partially because I think it it might be an actual good transition to, like, get into the images of what this looks like tangibly.

Pat Millea [00:08:09]:
What are some images or characters out in pop culture, so maybe primarily like movies, TV shows, things like that, of men who are good examples of healthy relationships with others? And what are some examples of men who are pretty terrible examples of connection to other people? What comes to mind? What do you think?

Ben Baker [00:08:31]:
I'll go I'll go first with more of a broader example, and this is going back maybe twenty five years now. But I'm thinking Band of Brothers, the the TV series, the small I'd like the small series. Yeah. That would just be an example in my mind of a of positive masculine, you know, brotherhood. And there's there's some negative examples in there too. Of course, it's messy. It's gritty. It's not a show that you're gonna show your kids for sure.

Ben Baker [00:08:59]:
But it is, it is an example, I think, of men coming together, of getting through something together, of having each other's back, of really, like, being there for one another and vulnerable and weak spots. That makes me think of that. A negative example might be, from the show Suits. I'm thinking of Harvey right off the top of my head. Though I think Harvey, you you start to see more and more of it, more and more of his good side as the show goes along. Right? Uh-huh. Yep. But especially at first, he's kind of just out there for himself.

Ben Baker [00:09:32]:
He's at he's gonna be willing to to and I'm thinking Lewis as well, from that show of, like, being willing to just, like, backstab anybody for the sake of getting kind of power and prestige within the show. And then you kinda see where that starts to to falter. I'm not gonna give any spoilers. Right? But, like, that start the that foundation of just, like, I'm only out there for myself starts to crumble, which it does. If unless you're you're with, you have good friendships.

Pat Millea [00:09:59]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's excellent.

Andy Norton [00:10:01]:
Right. Yeah. A bad a bad example to me I'm thinking of is a lot of shows have this dynamic, I think. But, there's a show called Peaky Peaky Blinders. Definitely content warning on that. I I could not get through more than one season. It was like, this is enough. Yeah.

Andy Norton [00:10:20]:
I would not recommend it to everyone. But, really, the idea there being I think it it did show how, how friendship can lead you astray, can lead you into, into bad behavior. It can it can be, negative when you have, like, a a friendship that, maybe is built on some some solid foundations of, like, maybe family connections, that sort of thing. But in but it ends up leading you into into maybe doing doing evil things. And I think that that's it's I think there's a lot of examples of that in pop culture. Breaking Bad, you know, all these other shows are very, like, kind of dark and show

Ben Baker [00:11:06]:
Yeah.

Andy Norton [00:11:07]:
Men connecting, but to sort of to do bad or to bring each other into into something bad. And, we know that there's good, healthy male relationships, but there's sort of a lot of just these examples of how it can go wrong, which I think is helpful if you take that not to not to cast a bad light on all male friendships, but to know that actually you should be discerning in how you approach male friendships. Yeah. And then with a good example, I think of Aragorn from the Lord of the Rings and Eomer, but not in the movie. So in the movie, this is actually I actually people hate the

Pat Millea [00:11:46]:
I knew you were gonna tear the movie apart for this.

Andy Norton [00:11:48]:
No. So I like the movies a lot, but and people always complain about Faramir. But for me, it's Eomer. It's the one that I I really feel like they did not do well. Because in the movie, Aragorn and Eomer, they, like, don't really trust each other. Eomer is very just grim and doesn't doesn't really, you know, you know, trust him or or think he's really king material. But in the books, he respects Aragorn, and they you know, the whole idea of, like, let this be the hour that we draw swords together. And it's this incredible, example of coming together and and building each other up and respecting each other and and seeing each other, really.

Andy Norton [00:12:26]:
And I just I love it. He's like they're they're they're they have a lot of, like, male complex emotion, the two of them, and it's just great. And there's a epic scene in the return of the king, book where they, like, when Aragorn shows up with the army, out of nowhere, and it's just beautiful. And Eomer, like, throws his sword up in the air. It's it's awesome. So to me, like, they're a great example of seeing each other, building each other up, drawing swords together, going shoulder to shoulder.

Pat Millea [00:12:53]:
Yeah. Yeah. So don't cheat and watch the movie. Yeah. No. You gotta read the book to get this. Okay. That's great.

Pat Millea [00:12:57]:
Totally. John, anything come to mind for you?

John Braun [00:13:01]:
Yeah. Yeah. Off the top of my head, I mean, I'm not thinking of a negative example right now. I'm I'm sure there's plenty in order to dwell on it, frankly.

Andy Norton [00:13:07]:
You know?

John Braun [00:13:08]:
But to be completely honest, Pat, and this isn't just a just a, stick for you, but I when you asked that question, the first person that came to mind was Captain America. It helps that my wife

Pat Millea [00:13:17]:
Thank you.

John Braun [00:13:19]:
It helps that my wife and I have recently been working our way through read through the, through the cinematic Marvel Cinematic Universe here. And so, I think and I was like, why did he pop into my head? But I was just thinking how, you know, I think something I really admire about his character. I'm not saying he's perfect, you know, but, like, he he really sticks to his values. Mhmm. You know? And he's willing to lose his friendships or compromise his friendships for the sake of staying with that and and holding true, you know, to what he believes and what he what he feels is right. You know? And I think that, not not only does that pay out obviously in in the way that he he supports people and is a cool hero and all that. You know? But I think it actually earned it later on, you see how it, like, actually earns the respect of the people around him, and they they value him for that. Mhmm.

John Braun [00:14:07]:
And it actually brings people closer even when there was, you know, early in his relationships, you know, getting to know the rest of the other characters in the universe, you know, like, there's there's a lot of riffs. There there is a lot of differences among them. These are people who never would have been friends if they hadn't been brought together here. You know?

Pat Millea [00:14:23]:
Yeah. Yeah.

John Braun [00:14:25]:
So yeah.

Pat Millea [00:14:26]:
Yeah. That's great. I love that. I approve that answer. Thank you for submitting that for consideration. Yeah. Yeah. I think, my my negative example would be, there are many examples because ever since, when was it? Like, maybe the mid nineties, there has been this, like, unstoppable trope in pop culture in America of the bumbling idiot guy.

Ben Baker [00:14:48]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:14:49]:
Like, the dad who can't do anything right and his wife, thanks be to God, cleans up all his messes. She's the only intelligent one in the house. And listen, I live out that in my life almost every day. So I get that it is based in reality sometimes, but it really does like it feeds this this kind of like shame cycle with guys. I think this like implicit thing of like men are terrible, women are the only ones who can do anything good. The one that popped up to mind for me was Phil Dunphy from Modern Family. Yeah. And and I I get it because I am Phil though Phil Dunphy in a lot of my life.

Pat Millea [00:15:24]:
He's a little ADHD. He's a little bit sporadic, but the poor guy is just a raging moron who's like socially inept sometimes and he has lots of redeeming qualities. Like he's really a sweetheart and he really does when push comes to shove, he can stand up, he can be authoritative, he can take command, but by and large, he's kind of spineless a lot of times. And I like that kind of thing I don't appreciate. It doesn't reek of respect and honor, which we'll talk about in a minute here. On the good side, one of one of the most surprisingly great movies of the past decade or two is, I forget his name now, but, John Krasinski's character from A Quiet Place. The dad from A Quiet A Quiet Place is just an exceptional movie. I could have a whole conversation about that.

Pat Millea [00:16:11]:
But a man who is, like, just radically connected to his family, the movie opens with the most unspeakable tragedy you can imagine. And you see the way that he helps his family navigate through grief and suffering and hardship. He's a protector. He's a guide. He's a sacrificial figure at at at, you know, as the movie goes on. Just like a a great example of commitment to to values, to safety, to family, never sacrifices his own values in the process. Just so good. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:16:42]:
Man. So here's here's where I want to turn transition from that. All these good examples that we talked about from pop culture, you and I have a hundred examples hopefully of real actual men in our lives who have these elements, these characteristics of being well connected to others. From your experience clinically, socially, in your own lives, the people that you've seen, when men are doing well in relationship with others, what is going well for them? What what is present? What are they doing that makes relationships work well for men? Ben, why don't we start with you if you don't mind?

Ben Baker [00:17:20]:
Yeah. I think a big thing is this idea of giving and receiving respect and honor. I think it we as men, I think we can tend to wonder where is my place amongst the guys around me. Do I do I have value to the guys around me? Am I able to contribute? And are the guys around me gonna have my back when push comes to shove or stuff hits the fan, for lack of a better phrase? So a big thing I think is this knowledge that I have worth and value, and I think that, you know, this is a podcast where we're trying to integrate faith and mental health. Right? So it it starts from knowing that I'm a beloved son of the father, and that's where my worth and value comes from. But I think it's also important to know that, if there's a crisis in my life that I have people that I can call on for help. Mhmm. And that they would also I would also be somebody that they would wanna call on for help.

Ben Baker [00:18:28]:
And I think that's a big piece of when we talk about honor particularly is that I am somebody who's gonna stick around when the bullets start flying. Mhmm. And that's something that I know I have really appreciated in brothers in my life, and I hope that brothers in my life have appreciated that of me.

Andy Norton [00:18:44]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. It's beautiful. I'm it makes me think of a hugely impactful book for me when I was, in college and ever since was, called I Believe in Love. And, in that book, one of the main questions it asks was, do you know that you are a joy for Jesus? Do you know that you are beloved of the Father? Not even just despite your sin and your brokenness and your misery, but because of it. Like, he's drawn to you. Our our misery attracts his mercy.

Andy Norton [00:19:22]:
And that whole idea totally revolutionized my relationship with the Father, and with, you know, with God. Just to know that he didn't he wasn't looking for me to be good enough so that he could love and respect me, but rather he saw that he had created me good. He had created me for goodness, and he loved me and he enjoyed me. He wanted to be with me even in the midst of and especially in the midst of my brokenness and and and my struggles. And that just totally transformed my relationship with God, and I think it did help my identity to know that, like you said, like, that I'm a beloved son of the Father sort of regardless of what what whatever comes. And, it established me in my identity, but it also has I've taken it into all my relationships with with my spouse and with other friends to remember, like, how how big of a difference does it make when you know that someone enjoys you Mhmm. Or or when someone has contempt for you. Mhmm.

Andy Norton [00:20:25]:
Like, the difference is huge if you just think about that in your life for a moment. Mhmm.

Andy Norton [00:20:29]:
And

Andy Norton [00:20:29]:
so to think about that and think, what am I communicating to my friends? Yeah. Are they receiving from me that I enjoy them, that I appreciate them, that I honor them, that I respect them? And what do I have to do to, like, get that for them? And I think it starts with, yeah, putting yourself, like, finding that identity for yourself, how how God sees you, and then looking at people and seeing what what there is to love about them. And there's always so many, like, just things to love about them, but also to know you can love them for just what god has made them for even if they're not at this very moment living up to that perfectly. And I know that's helped me to sort of, yeah, have have that enjoyment of the other person. It's it's it's enlivened my relationships with men.

Pat Millea [00:21:14]:
Yeah. I I I love that because I I think it makes perfect sense like theologically, relationally that, the the deep truth that we have to experience that God doesn't wait for me to have my whole life together before he will come close to me. That that God wants to be close to me. He wants to be near me even in the midst of the the the grossness, in the midst of the sin. He wants to save me from all that. And I think that's true. There there are reflections of that even in human relationships that we desire relationships where we don't have to earn the love of another person that they will be there for us even when we do things to push them away actively. They'll resist that effort to push them away.

Pat Millea [00:21:56]:
Right? It doesn't mean that we're gonna be best friends with everybody. It doesn't mean, that we're off the hook for our actions because I do think there is this balance. Ben, you were talking about honor. I think there's the great challenge for a man to live into the call to be honorable. Right? Like, to in order to be able to be honored, it's up to me to act in a way that's virtuous, that that is the kind of asks for and maybe demands the honor of others but to have some relationship in relationships in my life that aren't dependent on my actions. That's a it's a beautiful place to be in in a marriage, in a friendship. John, what would you add to that?

John Braun [00:22:36]:
Well, yeah. I just wanted to build off of what you were saying, Andy. You know, I was thinking about, you know, how like, can I ask myself the question, you know, like, okay? I take joy in my friends, you know, but can I can I imagine that my friends, you know, and I don't I don't think this is a stretch of the truth, you know, but can I can I am I willing to consider that they take joy in me, you know, that they that they honor me, that they see good in me, and Mhmm? That they they want to be around me. They want to be in my company, you know, that they that they they want and desire my help, you know, and they want and desire to be to help me and to support me as well. Mhmm. I think even just considering that can often be hard, you know, because I think we can I mean, if someone asks you, like, would you would you support your friend if they were going through something hard? You'd most of us would say, like, absolutely. You know, hands down. I'd be there.

John Braun [00:23:25]:
You know? And yet at the same time, do we hold ourself to that standard? You know, like, do you know, I know I know it would be a joy. It'd be I would love to support a friend myself, and yet it's so I find it so hard for me to desire that someone else would do that for me. You know? And I and I wonder about that. Like, why is that? Like, I'm so willing to give this to someone else. Why is it so hard for me to receive that from others?

Andy Norton [00:23:51]:
Mhmm. You know. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:23:52]:
That kind of that that the challenge of asking for help, maybe the place of self reliance, the place of pride, things like that, which is really good transition to where I wanted to go next actually to to to look at the idea of the the pitfalls, the weaknesses, the struggles that men experience in friendships and in relationships. What are what are the things that you've seen, again either clinically or personally, that are common pitfalls, common ruts that men fall into that that really work against healthy relationships, that frustrate healthy relationships, that even if a man would say I desire a great marriage, I want great friends, I want to be connected to people, that they might have habits, they might have mindsets that don't pursue that end. What what have you seen?

Andy Norton [00:24:43]:
I wanna hear your guys' sort of clinical terms for this. But, yeah, definitely building off of that. It's it's it's so easy to not want to invite someone into my life or connect with them or or for or for me to withdraw when I feel like I'm in a broken place or or when I'm, you know, not doing well. And even though, in reality, my friends would love to be with me and walk with me in those moments, and I would love to do that with someone else. You know? And I and it hurts me when I see someone who is pulling away, and and I can tell I think they're going through something, and they haven't texted me and, like, you know, haven't texted me back in, like, a week. They I would love to be there for them, but but there's this thing that's making them withdraw. So I'd love to hear your guys, yeah, more terminology for that.

Pat Millea [00:25:36]:
Yeah. When you when maybe when you get out to that idea of of withdrawal, of retreat, of a man just pulling away from connection to others. John what have you seen that look like, how does that show up and why is that such a temptation for so many guys?

John Braun [00:25:53]:
Yeah, yeah. I mean the first thing I think of it mean I know if it's a clinic clinical term or not, but I just I just think of how fear can creep in there. You know? It's something as simple as, you know, realizing, like like, man, like, the last part time I talked to this person was, like, two months ago. You know? Or I maybe I maybe I messaged them, and they never got back to me. You know? And and I think I mean, speaking from personal experience, it's it's it's easy to quickly read into that. Like, oh, man. Like, did they just are they did they not wanna talk to me, or did they not wanna respond? Like, and what does that mean? What does that say about me? Did they not wanna hang out? Did they not wanna, you know, what whatever it might have been. You know? And it and it's easy to kinda fall into these these negative beliefs or these these lies about myself and and how I I those those begin to step in and interpret this this this thing that can be as simple as, like, a text that went unanswered.

John Braun [00:26:44]:
You know?

Pat Millea [00:26:45]:
Yeah. Ben, how would you kind of add to that? What where do you see that show up?

Ben Baker [00:26:50]:
Yeah. Another word that comes to my mind as you're talking about that, John, part of that fear I wonder too is the idea of shame, of and, like, you're talking about these negative beliefs of, like, there maybe there's just something wrong with me. And maybe that's how that shows up in, like, friendships of, like, yeah. You know what? I'm not worth putting myself out there to, like, make a bid to hang out with a buddy. Or maybe it shows up in, like, a relationship with a spouse of, like, yep. We had another conflict. You know, I'm just gonna retreat. This is just too painful.

Ben Baker [00:27:23]:
I'm not gonna fight for this relationship anymore. And you see, like, maybe a man retreat more and more out of that that relationship. And I think in a lot of ways, there's an antidote of the word encouragement to instill to fight for that relationship with their wife, or maybe it's right for that relationship with their kids, or whatever the case may be. But where are we seeking as men, instances of encouragement in our life? Are we even asking for people to encourage us as well? And that that can be risky too. Right? Or just Mhmm. Am I turning in prayer to God saying, God, I I don't have it today. I I need you to encourage me to do the things that you've asked me to do. Mhmm.

Ben Baker [00:28:08]:
That's that's one thing that I'm thinking about that I see a lot of times I think in my clinical work is when guys start to retreat is, like, this this they're buying into this shame rather into this place of encouragement.

Pat Millea [00:28:20]:
That that shame cycle is so fascinating to me because I think, I I don't wanna overstate and I don't think it's it's some like universal law, but I do think for for whatever reason for men, shame tends to be at the heart of like every relational problem that a man has. And it's it it's always been like that. Like like Adam sins and I know Eve ate the apple first whatever but Adam sins right along with his bride and so he goes and hides from God which is the most hilarious asinine thing he could think to do like hide from the omnipotent God of the universe. I'm gonna hide behind a tree, but he hides because he's ashamed. He doesn't want to confront his God. He doesn't want to confront his wife. He just wants to retreat, pull away, and be disconnected because he feels like there's safety there. And of course that's it's the literal opposite.

Pat Millea [00:29:11]:
That is the most dangerous place he can be is off by himself isolated. Someone like David who commits this sin, he knows he committed the sin, he he had sex with Bathsheba out of wedlock, and then out of his shame he sends his best friend Uriah to be murdered in battle because he wants to cover up his sin. Right? And it just like we we've had we we have a couple episodes about pornography and I know that that's a big source of shame for guys all around the world that so many things tend to compound and and really destroy relationships when that shame cycle gets cemented and men feel like there's no way out. And, you know, in a minute we'll talk about some of the practical ways that men can kind of restore or reconnect or strengthen relationships. And I think there are ways to really get at that that shame cycle, but I do see ways that that touches on all kinds of struggles that men face in relationships.

Ben Baker [00:30:06]:
Totally. I think something a way that we try to get rid of that feeling of shame a lot of times is to make it so that we don't ever have to depend on anyone, and we get into this, like, rugged individualism of I'm good. Yeah. I'm gonna be the stoic American made man self made man.

Pat Millea [00:30:25]:
Yeah.

Ben Baker [00:30:26]:
I don't know if you guys have, like, seen that just in your own experiences or I know from just my own personal experience, I I I tend to fall into that trap in my own, like, relationship with shame of, like, you know what? If I'm encountering these dark places within me, I'm just gonna pretend like they're not there and just be this awesome, like, Superman. And then I fall on my face again. Right? Yeah. Instead of reaching out to brothers or admitting where I'm wrong or running to the Lord and mercy for mercy, that type of thing, is this, like, yeah, that individualism, I think, can really creep in and it's a common trap. I think especially for American men.

Pat Millea [00:31:02]:
Definitely. The kind of dated reference that I really don't even understand because I've never seen these movies but the John Wayne trope, you know, of like the man who just like he's he's a lone ranger and he does it all himself and John Wayne I I'm sure that's true I've never seen him but like that shows up all through not only pop culture but just like modern Western culture. Right? That like a man and we really do like we we revere that in a worldly way that like when when a guy seemingly comes from nothing and accomplishes a lot, we don't see all of the kind of external causes for his success. All we see is one guy lifting up a trophy and we're like, well look at him. That's the model. I'll just work harder than everyone else and I'll be the best, you know. And it just it it's it's a lie and I think any humble honest man who has experienced joy and success in this life would be the first to admit that it was not only his doing that he's been supported and connected to other people every step of the way but that that's a serious temptation, I think, for sure. Yeah.

Andy Norton [00:32:05]:
It's definitely the content that a lot of men are receiving on YouTube and such too is is very much the sort of stoic never show weakness never show weaknesses is truly, like, the dominant, thing, you know, to be an alpha. Right? You gotta Yeah. Never show weakness. And so yeah. I mean, I think honestly for me, the that realization that God sees me in my weakness, and he loves me there, and he wants to meet me there. And and I and I'm called to encounter others, my wife and my friends and everyone in the midst of my weakness has been really freeing for me, but it is hard. I I see, got a lot of friends, a lot of guys around who are really into sort of stoic or stoic adjacent type things, and it it does feel like, there's I think that there's a heart underneath this exterior, but it's hard to crack through and and connect with with this person because they do seem like they are trying to be comfortable going going it alone. So I don't know if there's thoughts on that.

John Braun [00:33:10]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. Just to just to build off of that, Andy, I was thinking about, you know, kind of this idea of how We it's not the weakness that's the problem. It's it's that we can't own that we are weak,

John Braun [00:33:20]:
you know, and that we

John Braun [00:33:21]:
have that we make mistakes, that we have problems, you know, that we've got shortcomings. And, and, yeah, and being able to own that, being able to recognize that, like, hey. I have made mistakes before. You know? It's it's not an excuse. It's not to say, like, oh, I'm weak and just

Andy Norton [00:33:36]:
Right.

John Braun [00:33:37]:
Take it or leave it. You know? But, like, firstly, we'll admit that, like, yeah. I'm not and that's okay. You know? I'm not expected to be perfect, and I don't need to be perfect or strong in order to be in a relationship, you know, to have friendships, you know, in order to, to be loved and to be cared for really

John Braun [00:33:55]:
at the heart of it. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:33:56]:
The the episode right before this one that really you're listening to right now, dear listener, we talked to Bishop James Conley who's the Bishop of Lincoln, Nebraska. And he in 2024 wrote a whole pastoral letter called A Future With Hope in response to his own mental health crisis right around 2020, 2021. And, one of the the the kind of, like, keystone moments for him that I just really appreciated talking to him was when he was talking to the apostolic Nuncio here in The United States and he was saying like, I don't know how to come back into ministry. He took a leave of absence. He got some good care with with a with a doctor, a psychologist, with a spiritual director. He was able to rest and recover and go back into his Episcopal ministry, but he he didn't know how to reenter. He didn't know how to how to say to his people, like, why am I leaving? Why am I taking this leave? And why how am I coming back? You know? And especially, I guess, it was when he was going on his leave of absence. The Nuncio told him, just tell him the truth.

Pat Millea [00:35:02]:
Like, you don't you don't have to message this. You don't have to public relations this. Like, you get to tell your people what is hard for you. Like, he said, like, tell them you're tired. Tell them you're depressed. Tell them you're anxious. Tell them just tell them what is happening. And and the bishop said, like, that was the best thing.

Pat Millea [00:35:21]:
Like, just being able to be honest and open with people. And he said, and I I I can't tell you how true this has been in my life, that he couldn't believe the the groundswell of support and love that he got from his people. That they didn't see him as weak. They didn't think he was an ineffective leader all of a sudden. They didn't doubt his authority. They didn't question his motivations for leaving. They saw a man who was able to be honest. And typically when not every time I get that, but typically when you and I lean into a relationship with that kind of vulnerability, that kind of honesty about our weaknesses, people are usually pretty quick to rush in and to remind us of our value and our goodness and to show empathy in those cases, you know.

Pat Millea [00:36:08]:
So he was coming at that from a spiritual, mental, and psychological angle. But I think there's something there, like you were talking about, John, of of Saint Paul. Like, when I'm weak, that's when I'm strong. And, you know, the worldly fallen culture says no when when I'm strong I'm strong. I don't know what you're talking about. But we as Christians would say like there is power that's made perfect in weakness and when I deny my weakness I'm actually robbing myself of some strength that I might be able to express and and share with the world.

Andy Norton [00:36:43]:
I think that's great. And I don't know if this is jumping into the next section or not, but I think that something that has helped me as well has been the importance of, identifying your values and goals. And when you because when you have those clarified, it sort of to me, it doesn't matter so much where I am or where a person is in relation to that goal, as it matters more that I have that goal and I'm striving for that, and I'm I'm constantly seeking to realign, recalculate. You know? Like, the GPS has the right address, you know, even if I'm not currently on the right path or I missed the exit. I just think that there's so much value in that really taking time to to to decide, you know, like like like Jesus says as a disciple. Like, he says, sit down and count the cost. Right? Count the cost. Like, figure out what you're going for.

Andy Norton [00:37:44]:
And to me, like, if you if we can share have a shared goal like that, then it yeah. Again, it doesn't really matter so much if I'm this far or that far from the goal. It's what's really important is that we're we're seeking that. And what that helps with is both it helps me to I think to be more vulnerable or open with my weakness. And it also does, I think, have some practical help with with relationships. When I can relate to somebody, we can we can share share a goal and can call each other to that goal. So yeah. Mhmm.

Andy Norton [00:38:21]:
Mhmm.

Ben Baker [00:38:21]:
And that makes me think about, like, when we're able to create this container of, like, a shared goal Mhmm. Encouraging one another of I think another big thing for guys is probably proximity. We can kinda stink sometimes at just reaching out to one another. Yeah. But if we're creating these, like, environments of proximity.

Andy Norton [00:38:38]:
Well, what was that look like? Sorry. That sounds awesome.

Ben Baker [00:38:41]:
Or I guess, environments of proximity just being, like, having these habits of knowing that I'm gonna reach out to a friend or we're gonna we're gonna, get in like, we're gonna share an activity together, like, be in a small group with each other in church, whatever the case may be. When we can create these environments, it does create this freedom to be vulnerable. And then I think, it creates this ability to start to express emotions to one another. Mhmm. I still remember growing up when my dad would pick me up from school. He'd say, Ben, how was your day? And I said, good. And I would leave it at that. Right? Like any 11 year old boy, and he would always say, elaborate.

Ben Baker [00:39:17]:
And why why would he say that? Because he actually wanted to get to know me. Yeah. He wanted to know if something was hard for me. He wanted to know if something was good for me. He didn't want me just to leave it at good. But I think there is this fear within us of, like, if I'm express anything that is vulnerable or weak, that that's gonna be, it's not gonna be accepted, that I'm not gonna belong there anymore. And I think we can I think a common mistake that we've fallen into probably in the last ten or fifteen years as a society is we're we're starting to normalize more and more that it's okay to be vulnerable? But then we get into this mentality that I'm not gonna own anything. I'm not gonna take accountability for what I can control and what has been hard for me.

Ben Baker [00:40:01]:
And I think when we can create this container of it's okay to be vulnerable, we can also create that same container that as men, like, you can take accountability and ownership. And that's, I think, been powerful for me of, like, if I'm talking to a friend about something that might be hard for me in my life, you know, if they're able to be, like, empathize with me, but also say, okay. What can you do about this? This isn't just all somebody else's fault. Yeah. That is really freeing and gives me agency in that moment without negating why it's hard for me and my emotions.

Pat Millea [00:40:32]:
Yeah. That both end of, like, the the emotional openness, like, whatever the thing is, like, a guy who is having a really difficult time financially and things are not good financially with with their family, with their spouse. They're having lots of really hard conversations. A guy who's getting older and his physical health is just starting to deteriorate like he's he's his his belt is a lot tighter than it used to be and he's not lifting as much and he hasn't run-in about three years and the doctor's visits are getting harder and harder. Right? Like things like that that that that has an emotional toll. If it's just someone's marriage that like or a dating relationship that is just not going well and a lot of times I I think I've seen it for myself like you were talking about that and I think it's a temptation for guys that, being open about that weakness is good but there's often the temptation to just say like and that's the way it is and to like to to abandon any sense of agency or initiative in the things that I can control. And of course in any relationship especially there's a lot of stuff I can't control and that is not up to me that would be unhealthy for me to try to control about the other person or their actions. But I do get to make choices and decisions that affect my life and the people around me so having that that great beautiful very Catholic both/and of Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:41:54]:
And of of weakness and vulnerability but also the strength of character to move and to get up and to do something to at least try to try to move the needle in whatever direction I wanted to go. You know? Yeah.

Andy Norton [00:42:08]:
A great, quote on that sort of ownership or character building was, Saint Josemaria Escrivá. He was talking about how someone someone saying, I'm I'm sorry, Father. It's it's just my character to do this. You know, it's just my character. And he was like, no. It's your lack of character. Esto vir. Be a man.

Andy Norton [00:42:29]:
I just obviously think of that. I was like, that's I really like that. It really, to me, spoke to the heart of, like, we can be vulnerable, but we also take ownership. I love that. Container of vulnerability, container of ownership. Sorry, listeners. If you hear my pencil scratching, I'm taking notes. This is great.

Pat Millea [00:42:46]:
The students sitting at the feet of the master. Yeah. Exactly. My my choleric bride loves Josemaria Escrivá by the way.

Andy Norton [00:42:52]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:42:53]:
And he is awesome and he also bothers me a lot. Yeah. Because he's just such a hard ass oftentimes. He just like and he has this beautiful pithy way of cutting right to the heart of the problem with no concern for someone's feelings but in a good way like in a holy way like your your virtue is more important than your feelings like the the quote, some some like I think young adult teenager was complaining about how long Mass was and he said the Mass is long because your love is short. Short. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:43:25]:
Just like vicious but so good. Like that's the stuff I need to hear sometimes but it hurts my feelings and I don't like it. Yeah.

Andy Norton [00:43:31]:
I'm not a choleric. He says the things I appreciate him because he says the things I would never say.

Pat Millea [00:43:35]:
Correct. Right. Exactly. You can't say that. Yes. Well, we kind of already made a seamless transition into, this kind of like final stage of, you know, if we've got the the common kind of like pitfalls weaknesses for men in relationships, things around hyper individuality, pride, self reliance, shame, that kind of tendency to withdraw, to retreat, to just give up my initiative, my agency. What are some other kind of practical ways that men might be able to to foster healthy, great relationships in their own life? Anything come to mind?

John Braun [00:44:13]:
You know, the first thing that comes to mind is once you once you find an example of it, you know, once you notice, like, wow. Like, I see that showing up in my life here or there. Do something about it. You know? Doesn't have to be big, you know, but find some way to lean into that discomfort, you know, of, like, wow. I'm noticing I feel, you know, uneasy about this relationship, or I'm feeling kind of nervous about, you know, the situation. You know? And what can I do to lean into that? You know? It doesn't have to be big. You know? But, like, something as simple as, you know, back to the texting example, you know, because I I think this supplies to me. This applies to a lot of other people I know.

John Braun [00:44:53]:
You know, how like, if if I suddenly notice I didn't I didn't text someone for two months, you know, like, I forgot to follow-up with them. Like, the fear might be like, oh, man. What are they what are they thinking about me? And I'm tempted to just, you know, oh, I don't need them. You know? I'm just gonna ignore the text. Like, text them. Just go for it. Text them. And and and you know what? Maybe maybe we have to own at some point or apologize.

John Braun [00:45:14]:
Like, oh, hey. Sorry not for reaching out, but at the but at the end of the day, let's schedule something. Let's get together. Let's let's make whatever we were working on happen, you know, to recognize that just because I waited two months doesn't mean I didn't still need that, you know, that we still need that relationship. And, yes, if it got put off two months, alright. But let's let's let's own that and let's let's step forward here now. You know?

Pat Millea [00:45:40]:
It feels like another example of of the deep human principle that, the hard thing is often the important good thing to do. That it is so much easier to not respond to a text when it's already been six weeks and I feel awkward about it. Right? It's so much easier to not tell my wife how I felt about my day because it takes effort to talk about my feelings and it's an uncomfortable like, even even now that I've been trying to work on it for fifteen years, I still have a hard time, like, expressing my emotions to the person I love most in the world. It's hard to tell a guy that I respect and I'm good friends with about the ways that I kind of suck sometimes and I need to do better. Like, it's hard to admit. It's hard to go to confession for Pete's sake sometimes. Like, I just it is so much easier to do the things that make me comfortable. And what I'm hearing you say, John, is that there is great value in stepping into the hardship because as as much as the ease and the comfort is nice in the short term, what I really desire is connection to other people, not my own comfort.

Pat Millea [00:46:50]:
So in the short term it's gonna be easier for like five ten minutes maybe a day or two but that's gonna to to tend toward relationships that are not very well connected and and it's gonna I I'm working against myself if I just take the easy way out too often. Right.

John Braun [00:47:04]:
Right. You know, and I'm not saying this this rule applies in every situation, you know, but I I think it can be pretty helpful to just remember, first of all, relationships are going to be uncomfortable, you know, and they're going to be difficult sometimes. That means you're doing it right, you know. And so just having this little if it's uncomfortable, you're probably doing it right.

Ben Baker [00:47:23]:
Right. You know? Right.

Pat Millea [00:47:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. Just to normalize the human mess a little bit.

John Braun [00:47:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Pat Millea [00:47:30]:
Yeah. Ben, what would you add to that?

Ben Baker [00:47:31]:
Well, I was just actually gonna honor John for a second because, we have been meaning to get together for a while, and then illness got in the way. And I think you had, like, a cancellation of an appointment or something like that earlier this week. And you just, like, on a whim, gave me a call and been like, hey. By chance, are you free to hang out? And I was I wasn't. But I was so honored by that that that was your idea of what you wanted to do with your free time is you took a step in of courage out and just, like, put yourself out there and said, you know what? We haven't made a plan, but, like, any chance you're free right now. And I was like, yeah. I wish I was because that would be the thing that I would wanna be doing right now. But it sometimes it takes that, like, courage to actually put yourself out there.

Ben Baker [00:48:14]:
And I think that might be a little bit of, like, a practical piece that I would say is the infrastructures that have supported male friendship have started to disappear, especially in the last probably twenty five years or so. Like, it's it's a lot harder to go join a bowling league, right, than it was twenty five years ago. And so it takes a lot more effort, intentionality. It's gonna be uncomfortable, like you're talking about, John, to, like, really seek out friendship with other guys. And I think I'm focusing on friendship with other guys, because I think that's the thing that I see so often clinically when I'm working with couples too is a lack of male friendship for guys. And then so much pressure gets put onto that relationship with their spouse, and they're looking for that spouse, their wife to be able to totally fulfill them, affirm them.

Andy Norton [00:49:01]:
You complete me.

Ben Baker [00:49:04]:
Exactly. And they don't. Right?

Andy Norton [00:49:06]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Baker [00:49:07]:
And so it's, like, there's so such a good to having that, like, that bucket in a man's life full from just, like, friendship with men. And you were actually talking about this earlier, Andy. And I thought you thought you talked about this in such a great way, and the way that, like, you and Sarah end up, like, negotiating that

John Braun [00:49:24]:
Yeah.

Ben Baker [00:49:25]:
As a couple.

Andy Norton [00:49:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I I feel, like, confident in, like, how I relate with Sarah, but definitely it's it takes more intentionality, I think, to foster those, male friendships and and other friendships. And so the way my wife, Sarah, and I have have really benefited over the years is we had learned about something called behavioral activation, and it was it was a therapeutic tool that really is sort of about breaking the inactivity cycle, like, inactivity to depression cycle. And one of the things that you're asked to do when you when you, use the the tool is to sit down and and look at your past week and really judge, like, what brought you joy, what brought you life. And from there, like, what do you and what also, what do you value? And taking those all those things together, you you start to see things like, wow, that was cool when I watched Netflix for four hours, and I did not come away from that being filled up with life.

Andy Norton [00:50:23]:
You know? But when I met up with my friend, like, that was hugely life giving and and joy giving, and and it was a a place of, like, real encounter. And starting to identify those sorts of things, and what what you then do is you're supposed to then look at your week and plan out how can I plan those life giving things, those joy giving things, especially relationships and time for for life giving friendships? How can I plan that into my week instead of sort of just coasting and and being very haphazard with with what I do because you'll very often fall into these things are not the best thing for you? You know, quick fixes like a video game. You know? And, and not taking the time and effort that it really takes to plan out something and get to get together with someone. And so then what what my wife, Sarah, and I realized, though, was that we had to take that a step further because in a relationship, you don't have full control over your schedule, and you have to account for someone else's needs as well. And so we realized that when we had conversations, we now have weekly conversations that we call integrated path findings. It was sort of a a build off of the behavioral activation, and we actually have a podcast episode about it. Episode 24. Yeah.

Andy Norton [00:51:35]:
Nice. Perfect. He knows the number. Oh, you memorized that. Right?

Ben Baker [00:51:39]:
Oh, no.

Andy Norton [00:51:39]:
But, we weekly meet, and we actually look at our week ahead, and we talk together about how we can meet those needs. It's gotten to the point now where not only do we ourselves, like, look for, okay. When can I get these knee where can I get these needs met? How can I do this? But, actually, we will do that for each other where I'll find, you know, Sarah or and I will more often actually just be saying, like, hey. Like, she might say to me, like, hey. You should really have a board game night this weekend. Like, would would one of these nights work? Or you should text some friends. I'm like, thank you. Yes.

Andy Norton [00:52:15]:
That would be great. Or I'll definitely, you know, tell her, like, have you talked with, you know, your friend Erin recently? Like, you know, you should totally hang out with her, or or who or who do you wanna hang out with? What would be life giving to you? And often, it it relates to relational, intentionality. Yeah. And and so that's been huge. And then being able to actually plan that and then look ahead to it and then have the anticipation of, I know I have, things to look forward to, friends I'm gonna be hanging out with. They're not just that maybe that's, like, a separate point almost is that it's cool to text someone and be like, are you free now? Are you free tonight? But really the power of planning ahead And that that's actually another level of intentionality when you can actually say, like, hey. I'm looking ahead. I love to spend time with you.

Andy Norton [00:53:04]:
Does Saturday work? If that doesn't work, does Sunday work? You know, is is this something you wanna do? Like, what was something we can both enjoy and and plan out together? So that you can honestly say and answer the question that my wife, Sarah, and I will ask each other, which is, are you looking forward to this week? Mhmm. And so often, it's it's about, do I have time planned with with friends and yeah. We're all encounter each other.

Pat Millea [00:53:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. Number one, I was overconfident. It's episode 25.

Andy Norton [00:53:30]:
Episode 25.

Pat Millea [00:53:31]:
So episode 25, check it out. And there's a resource all about integrated path finding that you can download that, Andy and Sarah have created for you. Number two, I love what you're talking about in terms of being intentional and discerning and looking at the course of my life, to see where I get life from connection with other people. It's almost like an Ignatian process kind of like looking at the course of my past week and seeing where connection with others has been fruitful and where it's been difficult. But even that process takes effort. Right? Like it's easier to not do that and to just like play video games or like watch your beast games or whatever. That's gonna be a dated reference in, like, a week and a half. But, it's easier to do anything but that.

Pat Millea [00:54:16]:
So it takes effort. It takes initiative to go through the process of seeing where I find life in relationships and how I can can seek that more. And I think it's really valuable as well to to have the kind of understanding about relationships that there is a clear hierarchy of relationships. Right? I'm a married man. That means there is one person in this world that I am sacramentally bound to and it's not even my children. Like my my bride is the person that I am responsible to first. And the problem sometimes is that I and I think other men see other relationships as competitive with that one. The illusion that, like, every minute that I'm not spending at home is a minute that I am choosing someone else over Kenna.

Pat Millea [00:55:01]:
Mhmm. And certainly, there are all kinds of times that I and other men have escaped the challenges of marriage by doing something else. Right? Like bowling, ice fishing, fantasy football, whatever the thing is, we're we're we men are good at that sometimes. But with the right mindset, all of our other relationships, all of our friendships with our our brothers, with our good friends, those make me a better husband. And that is the time that I spend away from Kenna that makes me better for her when I come back. And it's a really valuable thing to talk about with your bride if you're married, with your girlfriend, if you're dating, of thinking about that down the road, if you're single, like, what are the relationships that I have in my life that are not the primary vocation and how can those relationships serve me well so that I can serve her well? You know, that's not a competition. It can be. So how can I arrange those relationships in a way that's really healthy and suited to to my flourishing and my brides flourishing too? Right.

Pat Millea [00:56:00]:
You know?

Andy Norton [00:56:01]:
Speaking of your bride, that fits with her definition of self care. Right?

Ben Baker [00:56:05]:
Mhmm.

Andy Norton [00:56:05]:
Where she talks about what are the things that I need to do, for myself that helped me to return to my roles and responsibilities and other relationships with greater joy and greater generosity. And that's been a super helpful, paradigm for for us.

Pat Millea [00:56:22]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, before we close-up with a a challenge by choice for our brothers out there and, for the ladies who are listening, for the men in your life, who you are welcome. I very much encourage you to share this episode with the men in your life, but maybe in the least passive aggressive way you can think of. Right? If there's a way to communicate it that doesn't say, hey, moron, here's something you need to work on. If there's a way to do it just out of charity and self gift, you know what I mean? I very rarely get to pick a challenge by choice, so this is a rare thrill for me. I think a challenge by choice for you out there listening, especially for the men listening right now, is to figure out one step, like John was talking about, to move into the challenges of healthy relationships.

Pat Millea [00:57:07]:
What's what's one of the pitfalls or the weaknesses that you're privy to, that you're tempted toward of shame, of self reliance, of withdrawal? And what's one way that, you know, again going back to Ignatius, what's one way that you can bend the stick the other direction that you can move against that in an intentional way? So what are ways that you can fight shame with with confession, with openness, with vulnerability, with with humility? What are ways you can fight individuality individualism by reaching out to other men and to being connected with people intentionally, selflessly for their good and for yours. What are ways you can fight withdrawal by being initiating of tough conversations, of planning with your bride, of of talking about the finances that neither of you really want to bring up or talking about the in laws that are hard for everyone. Whatever the case is, what are ways you can lean into the difficulty and really bring that sense of trust and connection to your relationships? Fellas, let's wrap up in prayer for the good of all the men out there, for the people who love them, and, for greater connection, for all of us. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, amen. God, you are our Father, you are our creator, and you are the source of life and love in our lives. Lord, we thank you for, the gift of of the men that you have put on this earth to to be your servants, to live as your beloved sons, to love those around them, and to be in healthy and holy relationship with you and with others. Lord, we pray for each of us men and for all the men that, are are loved by those who are listening. We pray for their flourishing, for their well-being, for their sense of comfort and meaning.

Pat Millea [00:58:59]:
And we pray, Lord, especially for healing in any ways that, that men around the world feel alone, feel like they have to do it themselves, feel like they don't have what it takes, any ways that they feel cut off from you or from others. Lord, help all of us men to have a greater sense of courage, a greater sense of purpose and meaning, and a greater, investment in the relationships that you desire for us. We ask for the prayers of Saint Joseph, of all the great man saints throughout the years, and we ask all this, Jesus, in your name. Amen. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Gentlemen, what a joy. Holy cow.

Pat Millea [00:59:44]:
It's been great. Thank you, Ben. Thank you, John. Thank you, Andy. It's been great to have you and I'm sure that we'll have you back on the microphone sooner rather than later. Thanks.

John Braun [00:59:52]:
Thanks for having us.

Ben Baker [00:59:53]:
Yeah. Thank you.

Pat Millea [00:59:54]:
No problem, man. It's been fun. Friends, if you enjoyed this episode again, feel free to listen to it again. Feel free to share it with a man that you love and care about. And, you can share it by checking out our website at thiswholelifepodcast.com. You can check us out on Instagram and Facebook at this whole life podcast. And you can also send us all kinds of feedback. What where have you seen these pitfalls or real strengths show up in your life? What have you found to be fruitful in your relationships as a man or relationships with the men in your life? Can't wait to see you next time, friends.

Pat Millea [01:00:27]:
On behalf of all the gentlemen here in the room, thanks for listening, and God bless you.

Kenna Millea [01:00:37]:
This Whole Life is a production This whole life is a production of the Martin Center for Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Pat Millea [01:00:55]:
Make it clear for everyone.

Andy Norton [01:00:56]:
Mine's sort of niche and sort of not.

Pat Millea [01:00:57]:
I feel like all your references are niche.

Andy Norton [01:00:59]:
Oh, thank you.

Pat Millea [01:01:00]:
Even the way you pronounce niche is a little niche.

Andy Norton [01:01:02]:
Is it niche or niche?

Pat Millea [01:01:04]:
It's technically niche, but I'm not that fancy.

Andy Norton [01:01:07]:
So I Okay.

Pat Millea [01:01:08]:
I do the American version where we make it sound gross and That's awesome. Abrupt.

Andy Norton [01:01:13]:
Yep. Yep.