Ep71 Suffering with Sanity & Sanctity

"...we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us."
~ Romans 5:3-5

How are Christians supposed to respond to suffering?
How do I know if I'm suffering well?
How do I know whether I should avoid or accept a specific kind of suffering?

In episode 71 of This Whole Life, hosts Kenna and Pat Millea are joined by their good friend, Fr. Nathan LaLiberte, to delve into the complex topic of suffering from both a faith-based and psychological perspective. They explore the idea that suffering is not just to be avoided but can be a path to personal growth, connection with God, and redemption. Fr. Nathan shares insights from his experience and studies, highlighting how pain can signal areas for growth and conversion. The conversation is grounded on the Christian ethos of finding purpose in suffering, and includes sound psychological principles like those of Alfred Adler and Viktor Frankl. They also discuss the Fruits of the Holy Spirit and the virtue of prudence as essential tools in discernment, helping listeners navigate when to accept suffering and when to seek change. Join them for a thought-provoking exploration of suffering in the pursuit of sanity and sanctity.

Episode 71 Show Notes

Chapters:

0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
13:42: The meaning of suffering
21:24: What kind of a God allows suffering?
25:38: There is no growth or change without pain
35:16: Do I accept this suffering or ask for help?
45:07: The example of Chiara Corbella Petrillo
50:37: Challenge By Choice

Reflections Questions:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. When have you experienced suffering in your life? What was that like for you?
3. Has your suffering helped you to know Jesus better or has it challenged your faith?
4. How has hardship helped you to grow, become stronger, and experience conversion?
5. How do you discern whether to accept suffering in faith or to seek out resources to diminish the suffering?

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 13:42 The meaning of suffering
• 21:24 What kind of a God allows suffering?
• 25:38 There is no growth or change without pain
• 35:16 Do I accept this suffering or ask for help?
• 45:07 The example of Chiara Corbella Petrillo
• 50:37 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:00:00]:
In 12 step work, there's a kind of an axiom that's oftentimes used is, pain is the price of admission to a new life.

Kenna Millea [00:00:16]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm with my husband, Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader. We invite you to our kitchen table. Okay. Not literally, but but you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having. Once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes. We're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes. It is not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care.

Kenna Millea [00:00:55]:
So let's get talking about This Whole Life.

Pat Millea [00:01:07]:
Hello, friends. Welcome to This Whole Life. It is a joy to be with you today, Whatever today finds you doing. It's a joy to be with you, my love. How are you doing?

Kenna Millea [00:01:17]:
Good.

Pat Millea [00:01:17]:
Good. Excellent.

Kenna Millea [00:01:18]:
Great. Beautiful sunny Lenten morning. What could be what could I ask for in this life?

Pat Millea [00:01:23]:
Only you can put sunny and Lent in the same sentence. And we are joined, not only by each other as spouses but with our good friend Father Nathan LaLiberte. Welcome, Father.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:38]:
Hello. Holla back.

Pat Millea [00:01:39]:
Holla back. Today we get to have a great conversation, a very appropriately Lenten conversation around the idea of suffering for us as Catholics, as Christians, the psychology of suffering, what that looks like for us. So it's appropriate and I think it's relevant to say that there's a reason that we begin our episodes with a high and a hard. It's not just like a checkup, a very simple kind of service y, what's been going on? Hey, what book are you reading these days? But like, no. It there's value in acknowledging that things are hard, and that even when things are hard, not even in a good way, like the bad hard things, that there still is value to that. And we're gonna dig into why that is later in the episode. But, first of all, Father Nathan, would you mind kicking us off with your high and hard?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:25]:
I'd be so honored. So this was hands down the strangest Ash Wednesday, in my fourteen years of priesthood. In Minnesota, this Ash Wednesday was with a snowstorm that brought about nine inches of snow, canceled the majority of schools Mhmm. Including the university where I study at and I minister at. And so I had super excited. I was gonna have two Masses at 8:30 and 11:30 on campus, go around to the different departments, bring ashes to people, and the university closed. So at noon, when they plowed the parking lot, finally, I drove in, and there were a couple brave souls that had ventured to, come to the university to work. All the students were remote.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:07]:
And so we had Mass with those two people, and, that was all that I had for Ash Wednesday. So it was so bizarre because I I was talking with one of my friends, Our Lady of Grace had, I mean, like the morning Mass, because it was all snowed out.

Pat Millea [00:03:22]:
Yeah. Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:23]:
Like the evening Mass was so crowded.

Pat Millea [00:03:26]:
Everywhere.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:27]:
It was bigger than Christmas.

Pat Millea [00:03:28]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:29]:
And so, like, totally different than my experience. And so it was just really weird. And it was it was it was hard because I was like, man, like, these are the days where you just have, like, this common sharing of the beginning of Lent. And it was kinda like, where where's my people?

Kenna Millea [00:03:43]:
Yeah. Like yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:44]:
So it was it was kind of a hard way to enter Lent, but it was also I probably reflected and prayed more, than I ever had before. So it was kind of this, like, blessing and hardship at the same time. I would say my greatest blessing is this semester. I have a class that I love so much. It's called counseling theory. So we're literally walking through all of the psychological theories from all, like, the major giants who have, like, contributed something to the field of psychology. Mhmm. And my, I have two papers.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:16]:
One is comparing and contrasting, like whatever psychotherapist I pick. And then the second one is just an in-depth dive into one of them. And so I have been enamored by Alfred Adler and I just can't get enough. So I just finished a book, doing some research called The Courage To Be Disliked. Like if you can put that in the show notes, For sure. Amazing book. It's all in Adlerian psychology by two Japanese people who found his books and basically developed a relationship like Plato and Socrates. And so, like, they were just, like, this the whole book is based on, like, dialogue between two people.

Pat Millea [00:04:53]:
Interesting.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:54]:
And it brings you through Adler's psychology philosophies in, like, a way that's very applicable to human life, not abstract. And I've just found that theory as well as just seeing what else is out there as, like, I don't know. You can kind of start to develop what methodologies am I gonna use and pick and choose. So Mhmm. I've just been geeking out like crazy.

Pat Millea [00:05:18]:
Yeah. And Freud is everything everyone says he was?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:21]:
I don't know what everyone says he does, but here's the interesting thing. Like, he's given a lot, and then he went, like, really crazy on some things. So Adler studied under Freud.

Kenna Millea [00:05:31]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:31]:
Oh, interesting. Yeah. Like, him and Jung both divorced Freud. Actually, Freud divorced Jung, and Adler was kind of a mutual separation.

Pat Millea [00:05:38]:
Okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:39]:
Freud is pretty irascible. Yeah. He decoupled. They decoupled. And, Yeah. Freud, he's got some crazily good insights into the subconscious and then some like over fixations on things. We were like, Oh, buddy, like, is that right? Because you could just stop just a little bit, you know?

Kenna Millea [00:05:56]:
Yes. I would one hundred percent agree with you. I think we make a mistake if we throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like, he needs to be studied. You need to glean what is truth, right, within him, and then you need to feel free to let go of the stuff that's like, and you just took that to the Nth degree.

Pat Millea [00:06:10]:
I remember Peter Kreeft quoting Freud one time and saying, just because you find it in a pile of crap doesn't mean it's not a diamond.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:21]:
Gosh. That's just such a difficult image to do. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Pat Millea [00:06:25]:
Leave it to Peter Kreeft to be honest with you.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:27]:
Maybe like sifting for gold or something, but no.

Kenna Millea [00:06:29]:
No.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:30]:
Just a big pile.

Pat Millea [00:06:31]:
There we go. Pile of poop. That's right. Yep.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:35]:
Do you have toddlers at your house?

Pat Millea [00:06:37]:
I don't know what you're talking about. I literally just today Oh, no. Finally picked up the thing off the floor that I had walked past for a day and a half or so. And I walked past it. It's just like Baby Mama. On that shirt, in my mind, I kept asking myself, is that chocolate or poop?

Kenna Millea [00:06:52]:
Did it just come out of the laundry?

Pat Millea [00:06:53]:
Yes. It did.

Kenna Millea [00:06:54]:
I had something to say to you. Did you? Oh my gosh.

Pat Millea [00:06:56]:
You walked by you walked past it too? No. This is how busy you've been. Okay. So neither of us have picked up the chocolate or poop shirt because we just didn't wanna deal with it.

Kenna Millea [00:07:03]:
It was a piece of my clothing. It was your shirt. Oh, this is really interesting. In my pile, there was a piece of clothing that had a mysterious something on it. And I was like, this just came out of the laundry.

Pat Millea [00:07:13]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:07:13]:
So it must have been in the wash.

Pat Millea [00:07:15]:
I know the answer to this. And there was also one in the hallway that maybe is different from your shirt. Just all kinds of clothing.

Kenna Millea [00:07:20]:
Guys, I swear we have it under control.

Pat Millea [00:07:23]:
Father is giving us a hilarious look right now.

Kenna Millea [00:07:24]:
Human health services. Here's where the address is.

Pat Millea [00:07:26]:
What are you doing, you guys? No. So,

Kenna Millea [00:07:30]:
Is it chocolate or poop? Just

Pat Millea [00:07:31]:
No. I'm gonna get there. You need to you need to wait.

Kenna Millea [00:07:34]:
It's it's suspense for the story.

Pat Millea [00:07:36]:
So in our household, we give our children chocolate chips in the morning if they just stay in their gosh forsaken beds and they rarely earn chocolate chips if we're being honest. So one day I was doing laundry and out of the washer comes six loose chocolate chips And the it had already been run and I was like, well, that's not gonna be great. I figured I got them all. I apparently did not because then some went in the dryer and I think some chocolate got it got smeared in the inside of the dryer probably in some clothes.

Pat Millea [00:08:04]:
So not poop. If you're listening, be consoled. No poop on the Millea clothes. Not this time.

Kenna Millea [00:08:11]:
There are other stories where it was poop. But that is good to know, and we should probably check out the dryer and wipe that out.

Pat Millea [00:08:16]:
I think I got it all. I think it just got on that one load. So, yeah, we'll see if it stays. On that note, any highs and hards that relate to chocolate or poop for you my dear?

Kenna Millea [00:08:25]:
I don't even remember. I don't even remember. I can't even remember what happened before this. I love my vocation. Oh, man. Okay. Well, high and hard. It's Lent.

Kenna Millea [00:08:36]:
I'm loving it. It is like yeah. The fact that it comes for us in spring here in the Northern Hemisphere is like just so telling of, like, what it feels like for my soul and my life. Like, this spring cleaning, like, reordering, reorganizing. Pat, you commented the other day that you've seen me tear through, like, five fiction books in the last, like, six weeks, and I have, like, had not read fiction for years. Mhmm. And yeah. Just like like, wow.

Kenna Millea [00:09:03]:
When I don't spend excessive time on the screen, when I don't, you know, just mindlessly scroll at the end of a day or what have you, like, just how much more time I have. And I am loving it. I'm really, really enjoying it. The hard, of course, is it's starting a lot of new habits. It's affecting a lot of change in our family, and that is tough. Like, getting nine people to practice night prayer and then a grand silence following that until bedtime is, like, quite the undertaking, but we're we're we're doing it. We're working on it. But that that's hard.

Kenna Millea [00:09:37]:
And there are moments when, like, I wanna quit, and I'm like, yeah, we should just watch a Dude Perfect video too or, like, you know, whatever. So so there is some hard in that, but, man, the high is just so big right now. So, I mean, check back with me, you know, day 38. But right now, I'm feeling real good. Aren't you so glad you're married to me?

Pat Millea [00:09:56]:
I am always even when it is inconvenient to be married to you sometimes. Ironically, not surprisingly, Lent is also my high and hard, but the exact inverse of yours. Lent is hard because I hate it and I never look forward to it. I dread every minute of it. I don't enjoy it. I don't like Lent. It is a high because I need it exactly to the measure that I don't like it, you know. I, food has always been will always be my weakness.

Pat Millea [00:10:27]:
I don't know what thanks be to God that the Lord gave me a metabolism that can keep up with my lack of self discipline. But also maybe if, if my metabolism wasn't cooperating so well I'd be more externally motivated to manage my diet a little bit. But as it is I just have a hard time not eating what I want when I want. So Lent comes along, and I know that's the thing I should do. That's one of my commitments for Lent, and it just literally physically hurts. It Ash Wednesday, you talk about the sunshine today. The dreary gray snow on Ash Wednesday was totally fitting with my mood because I woke up and I couldn't eat anything and there was no ice cream waiting for me at the end of the day. It was just painful.

Pat Millea [00:11:09]:
But it's so good and, you asked me and our older kids to listen to the CFR's Poco a Poco episode on fasting, which is great, like all their stuff. And it's a great perspective on fasting. This is not about trying to win the Catholic awards. This is not about trying to, like, overcome some physical worldly weakness. This is about making room in my life so that Jesus can be closer to me and I can be closer to him. So I need it. I know that I need it. It's a high because I need it, but it hurts and it is terrible.

Kenna Millea [00:11:40]:
If we could just replay that, like, little pep talk you just gave yourself, like, every morning.

Pat Millea [00:11:43]:
That's I I keep telling myself that every day. Yeah. I need this. I need this. Jesus. I need this.

Kenna Millea [00:11:48]:
Lord, I need you.

Pat Millea [00:11:49]:
Lord, I need you. I need you. And I don't technically need that Oreo, but I really would like it right now.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:11:55]:
So as you edit this in a couple weeks.

Pat Millea [00:11:57]:
Yes.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:11:57]:
You'll be able to relisten to yourself. It'll be perfect.

Pat Millea [00:12:02]:
I need it. I need it. Oh, man. Well, speaking of hardship and pain and suffering and things that are terrible like Lent, Today, we get to dive into the the difficult but beautiful topic of suffering for human beings, especially for us as Christians, and what that means for us. Especially when you look at it from a psychological perspective, which obviously we will on This Whole Life, what does it mean to to navigate, the very healthy desire to evade some forms of suffering or to seek help and resources when suffering gets to a certain point? And how do we hold that intention with the understanding that suffering is redemptive, that it can be redemptive, that the Lord invites us into suffering, that that love will necessitate suffering? How do we hold those two things in tension? So, Father, maybe we can start off just with kind of an oversight, an overview from your perspective of what suffering is and how suffering might have meaning for us as human beings. What's kind of a high level way that we might start to look at at the value of suffering?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:10]:
Yeah, so I mean, if we just kinda break it down from, I think, the most foundational thing, suffering is actually good for us as human beings is even though that sounds strange to say. If you were to study, there's a, there's a neurological disorder. I don't know what it's called, but we're like, literally your nerves don't receive pain triggers. Yeah. And it's, it's extremely bad for the person. So if anyone's had like neuropathy or even like diabetes and their feet are having issues, this is why people get, you know, limbs amputated and things is because they'll stub their toe or have an infection. They can't feel the pain. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:41]:
So they don't know something's wrong. So, actually, pain and suffering give us kind of biofeedback that something is not okay. And so this is where, like, to say, like, I never want pain or I never want suffering. Like, it's actually it's not helpful for living in reality. The other piece that's very, very fascinating is there is a book called Dopamine Nation. Have you come across that yet, Kenna? Yeah. Yeah. Is one of the things that it talks about is that the body does not like to be out of, harmony.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:11]:
And so if there's too much dopamine or pleasure, the body will actually respond to that with allowing for some pain to try to bring some equilibrium so it's not too high. And this is actually why if you just look at, like, the phenomenon of withdrawals from something. So if you're gave up, like, I had this hilarious story. Someone called me and said, so my daughter gave up caffeine for Lent and she came back home on the second day and she had a splitting headache. And then the second day, it was even worse. So I just told her that that's clearly a sign from God that she shouldn't give it up. I'm like, that's called withdrawal. Give it a couple more days with lots of water and she'll be okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:47]:
But, like, we have this pain because it's this proportionality to which we were hooked on the dopamine fix. And so, again, like, sometimes pain is important for us to find an equilibrium in our personhood. If we have too much pleasure, we actually don't function well as humans. So I think that that's, like, kind of the the most basic foundation. And, I mean, even Freud loved talked about the pleasure pain principle as we love to move towards pleasure, and we love to avoid pain, but both need to be present.

Kenna Millea [00:15:16]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:15:17]:
So then what what are ways that the culture around us, especially maybe a postmodern secular mental health industry, what are the things that the secular culture gets wrong about suffering?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:30]:
Yeah. And I think it it it's fascinating just

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:32]:
to look at what our culture values most is how do we alleviate all suffering. Mhmm. And that that becomes the barometer of, you know, are we making advancements in the human condition? But, again, to, like, reflect back on the the first thing I said is pain and suffering actually give us good feedback. For example, right, let's say that you never experienced suffering in a relationship, then you can also equivocate that to I will never experience growth because it's oftentimes where we experience tension, conflict, things that don't feel great that we say, hey, we gotta talk about something, or we gotta look into something, or I need to go to therapy, or I need to go see a doctor. So the more that we actually create a society that avoids it, we actually create a society that doesn't want depth. And this is really problematic is because just the shallow fixes don't actually substantially change the course and development of humanity. It just literally allows us to kind of get lulled into a place that's not even healthy for us. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:32]:
That set aside, I mean, if you just looked at how much money and resources and time people pour into avoiding suffering and pain. Like you could literally live your entire life, not actually living life, but just trying to avoid pain

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:49]:
and

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:49]:
not wanting to suffer. And, like, there's even I mean, can I I don't actually know the the terms for for, like, the people that would, like, shut themselves in their rooms because they don't wanna go out and experience anything? Is it is it I think it's, like, agoraphobia kind of thing. But

Pat Millea [00:17:03]:
Jonathan Haidt talks a lot about that in in The Anxious Generation. There's a specific term for a Japanese kind of community that rose up, especially during the pandemic, but it hasn't gone away since then, of mostly young adult men who are doing exactly what you're saying, Father. That out of a fear of failure, rejection, being fired, getting turned down by a girl, they just literally lock themselves in their room and they don't leave their bedroom for months at a time. Mhmm. So meals are delivered. The only communication with the outside world is through Reddit and video games, and it's all, you know, kind of negotiated through computers. That that's the extreme, obviously.

Pat Millea [00:17:47]:
But I think all of us have that temptation sometimes of, like, well, if there's a chance I could be hurt Mhmm. Why would I even try? Yep. You know?

Kenna Millea [00:17:55]:
Well and I I appreciate what you're saying, Father, too, about, that the pain, is a catalyst for growth. Mhmm. In systems theory, which is what we study as marriage and family therapists, the principle is that all systems tend to homeostasis, I e, I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing unless something interrupts and causes me to choose a different course. I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing as long as it's good enough. And so particularly when I think about this as a person of faith to say, like, why would the lord permit suffering? Like, there are ways in which our conversion, our our deeper conversion is, is activated through some kind of pain, some kind of suffering, something that is not to our liking, and that moves us to consider, like, gosh, might it be that I that I haven't arrived? I'm not in a place of perfection. But it's that that pain, that introduction of the change that that that causes us to introduce that change in our life.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:55]:
And I love it, in 12 step work, there's a kind of an axiom that's oftentimes used is, pain is the price of admission to a new life. And it's, like, universally applied to whatever 12 step program is. Pain is the price of admission to a new life is if you want to get to something new, you gotta pay the ticket fee. And it is gonna be pain because it's gonna be something that you're not it's not easy. I mean, what do they say? It's usually, like, forty days to establish a new habit or something like that, which is perfect time for Lent. Funny. Funny.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:27]:
Funny.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:27]:
It's like the Church knew something.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:29]:
But but there is this, like, I got to pay a price of pain to get something. Mhmm. And, I mean, again, like, I don't see that as extremely problematic unless the greatest goal in your life is to avoid Yeah. All pain and suffering.

Kenna Millea [00:19:44]:
Yeah. Well, I was just gonna say, so so can we bring that to the question of, like, for anyone maybe on the outside looking in our our lives of, like, well, why would you want to believe in a God who permits pain? Like, why would you why would you want to follow a God who guarantees you that you're gonna have to take up your cross and follow him?

Pat Millea [00:20:05]:
Which for eternity has been the the most common and maybe the most logically coherent argument against the existence of a loving God. Right? That if if God is all loving and if God is all powerful, then there will not be evil in the world because an all loving God would not want there to be evil and suffering. An all powerful God would be able to make it so that there is no evil and suffering. So the fact that suffering exists means that there's not a loving God. I think there are great arguments against that as well, but that's not a a new and crazy idea. That's something that humans have always struggled with, you know.

Kenna Millea [00:20:39]:
But again, to echo Father's point of, like, that conveys that your highest good is comfort.

Pat Millea [00:20:45]:
Bingo.

Kenna Millea [00:20:46]:
But if our highest good is not comfort, then this doesn't hold weight.

Pat Millea [00:20:49]:
And it's the faulty premise that that love and suffering are opposed to each other somehow. And if I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:20:55]:
Yeah. If I love you, I will never let you suffer. Like, there's this Andy Grammer song, I wish you pain. Have you ever heard of this?

Pat Millea [00:21:01]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:21:02]:
Yes. I think you sent it to us.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:21:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm like, I just I love that song so much. And, like, the video is actually, like, I've wept, like, multiple times watching. Because he's interviewing his some of his fans who have gone through things, and they're sharing their stories. And, I mean, Andy Grammer is, like, not a masochist who loves to see people in pain, but he has seen through his experience with his fans in his own life that, like, this is where a lot of growth happens. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:21:26]:
And and to go to that kind of really existential question, Pat, about, you know, if God exists, why is there pain and suffering? It it really does boil down as as simplistic as it may seem to free will is we we always have to have the ability to choose bad things that are not good and, like, the ripple effects that happen with that. And, you know, the disparity of wealth and resources and all these sorts of things that happen in, like, just as the centuries go by. Right? And even, like, abnormalities and diseases and things like this. Like, many have been created by some things that we as human beings have done. Mhmm. So that it's just such a complexity of what has happened since the Fall. And God saying, okay. I I know these things are present, and I will allow them to still exist, and let's work through it together.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:17]:
Then this is where, like, I love Christ because he never leads under false precepts. He is always very clear with his disciples that if you come and follow me, you will have to carry your cross.

Kenna Millea [00:22:29]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:30]:
I mean, if I if I told someone, right, like, hey, you know, why don't you come join me and you're gonna suffer immensely and probably lose everything, but it's gonna be awesome.

Pat Millea [00:22:38]:
Totally worth it.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:39]:
Ain't nobody following me. Right? But, like, there's this thing where what Christ does is he doesn't explain away the pain and suffering. He gives purpose to it. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:49]:
And I think that this is the game changer that we oftentimes will have in our Christian ethos as we understand that the suffering that we have, it's we're not supposed to live a life to try to avoid all suffering, but actually to find a way of having worth and value in the midst of the suffering, we will all inevitably experience unapologetically from Christ. Mhmm. And this is where even, like, there's something called logotherapy, which Victor Frankl started. And in this entire methodology is to try to find purpose even in the midst of difficulty. He wrote, post concentration camp. And I actually I just learned in my counseling theories class that, before he went into the, concentration camp, his specialty was on suicide prevention. I can you so, like, literally what they found is he was so helpful in keeping people in this in the camps from killing themselves that they actually, like, had him do some psychological interventions in the camps to keep their workers alive longer. I mean, it's sick and disgusting.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:50]:
Right? But like Yeah. Like this like, Frankl had this ability to talk people into saying, like, I know you're in pain, but life is worth loving.

Kenna Millea [00:23:58]:
Yeah. Wow. Under those extreme conditions.

Pat Millea [00:24:00]:
I love the the the theme that I think both of you have kinda brought forth a little bit that I did not anticipate when we started talking about suffering, but it sounds like there's this kind of inextricable link between suffering and change or development.

Kenna Millea [00:24:13]:
Oh. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:24:14]:
And, I I don't know that I would have identified that before that. This it's really helpful for me. And I keep thinking of, a different song that we will also put in the show notes. There's a song by Ben Rector who is one of the very few music musicians in the middle of my and Kenna's Venn diagram of music. And he wrote a tiny little song called Wreck. And the refrain is so beautiful and so wonderful, and it makes me, like, well up every time. And it's the the refrain is you've wrecked my world in a beautiful way. I always thought that things would stay the same, but I've heard that

Pat Millea [00:24:50]:
healthy things grow and growing things change. So it's this whole song about how, like, you, bride, child, whatever, like God. Some priest, some wonderful force in my life has destroyed my life. And I can hold your hand, my bride, and tell you, you have wrecked my life.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:09]:
It's so romantic. The sun is coming down right now

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:12]:
over their hands being held with microphones in their face.

Pat Millea [00:25:14]:
But, like so I had all these dreams and plans and that's all fine and well, but God's plan is better. And if I'm going to get to God's plan for my life, then my dreams have to some of them have to die and there's this suffering that has to go that I have to go through to become the kind of man that God made me to be, not the kind of self made man that I kind of envisioned for myself. Right? And that's only one form of suffering. That's, you know, emotional suffering, relational suffering, spiritual suffering, but it's genuine. I mean, there's real suffering there.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:46]:
I think in just to hit kind of

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:47]:
on the both and and may maybe this is something you do wanna talk about later or not, but, I mean, there there is an importance in avoiding suffering at some points, and there's an importance of moving into it. And so, like, I think sometimes Catholics get the rap that we, like, we'd love pain and, like, flagellation. Hair shirts. Yeah. Exactly. Like, denying ourselves all these things and, like, Jesus died for our sins. And, like, here you're just wallowing in the cross and the suffering, like he overcame these things and it's like Yeah. Both and, you know, like, but we don't we don't just like wanna heap up sufferings.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:21]:
And if you actually look at some of the lives of the saints, like there's like hints of mental illness where like there's this hatred towards their body that you're like, I just I can't get along with that. You know? As you should love the gift that your lord that the lord gave you in your body and only to invoke any sort of pain or penitence onto it to allow it to respond better to God. And this is like one of Ignatius of Loyola's major laments is the reason he couldn't go on any of the missions with his brothers, the Jesuits that he created, is he had so ruined his health through fasting. And it was his greatest lament throughout his entire life that he had so destroyed his health, that he could not minister in the capacity that he wanted. Of course, God used it. And he was like in, you know, like this hub writing all these letters to encourage his brothers all over the world. But, again, like, he owned the fact that I did too much. I went too far in when I should have stepped out a little bit.

Kenna Millea [00:27:17]:
Can you can you hone in on that? Because you said, and I absolutely wanna talk about this. We're gonna talk about it right now. But it is is that yes, for many folks who are are genuinely wanting, desiring to be faithful, desiring to to be continually converted, they can step over the line and and reach too deep into seeking out suffering. And you hinted at it, but I want you to talk about it more. How do we know? How do we know when we've gone too far? What is it that that gives us the indication? How do we know we've missed the mark and have missed the point of allowing for suffering to begin with?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:57]:
Yeah. I think it's a beautiful question, and I'll use another very Catholic I guess it's a it's a Greek philosophy word, but telos. Is we have to look at what what is the end that we're moving towards? And, again, I'm I'm, like, so into my counseling theory class. I'm so sorry that I'm keep quoting it. But, like, Alfred Adler's huge thing was on telos is is what is the end, whereas Freud was much more causal, like this cause and effect thing. And Alfred Adler said, okay. So what is the end that you're moving towards? And I think with suffering, especially, this is why Viktor Frankl was so effective in the concentration camps and keeping people alive as he said, okay. What is the end? If the end is just to work more until you die, no thank you.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:28:38]:
Like or just to just to suffer for suffering's sake or, like, despite or these kind of things. Like, what are you moving towards? You're like, how do you find fulfillment even in the midst of pain? If you're saying like, well, I just, I just have to do this as this is what God wants for me. I'm already like starting to get on shaky grounds. Like I throw up the yellow flag at that point. We're like, really, really? God just wants you to be in immense amounts of pain. That that that something's wrong with that. Because what God says, right, is to take up his cross with him. So it shouldn't be an isolating experience.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:29:09]:
It shouldn't be one where now I'm self obsessive or I look morose and, you know, God help the sorry saint. Where is the joy in the midst of suffering? And I think that that's one of the litmus tests where I'll see if someone comes to me and especially there's kind of like this unholy victimhood where it's kind of like, this is what God wants for me. And, I mean, there are victim souls who literally, like, they have like, they're they're making reparations for the sins of the world in their very flesh. They are not nasty, angry, bitter, pitiful people. Like, they're like people you come in contact with, and they are brighter lights than, like, anyone you've ever met before. So, I mean, Christ would talk about it as the fruits. Right? But I think the major thing that you can ask yourself is what is the end in me enduring the suffering? And sometimes, right? And this is where, like, this misinterpretation of this passage, God will never give you more than you can handle. I don't even think that's from the Bible, isn't it?

Pat Millea [00:30:15]:
That's what people quote, but that is not scriptural.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:18]:
That's not what it says. Right, right.

Pat Millea [00:30:20]:
Let me look at the actual quote.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:21]:
Yeah. Sounds great. Yeah. Pull it up while I'm, but like that passage is so misrepresented because God won't give you more than you can handle. Well, that is a true understanding. Right? But sometimes we keep things that we should actually get rid of. So in in Matthew eleven twenty eight, it says, my yoke is easy. My burden is light and take my yoke upon you.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:43]:
And, like, sometimes we take on things that God doesn't want us to hold on to. And this is again where, like, the over association with suffering and over associate with the victimhood in these things. Is it's almost like this kind of obsession where I've convinced myself that this is my lot rather than to do the hard work of striving against what is presenting as pain or hardship. I'm just going to relent and accept it, not in a holy way, but as in a defeatist way, no longer engaging my will and no longer bearing good fruit.

Kenna Millea [00:31:17]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:17]:
And so it's actually an act of cowardice, even those to some people, it would seem like, oh, they're heroically bearing their crosses. If they're heroically bearing their crosses, why isn't there joy? Yeah. Yeah. Did you find the passage, Pat?

Pat Millea [00:31:31]:
I did. Yeah. So it's first Corinthians chapter 10 verse 13. And it it it's a classic misquote when people say God will never give you anything more than you can handle because it's out of context and it sounds like what Saint Paul actually says, but it's different enough that it's wildly different. Right? So verse 13 says, no trial has come to you but what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength. But with the trial, he will also provide a way out so that you may be able to bear it. Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:32:03]:
So already that that verse brings in God's cooperation and God's presence in the hardship that you're going through. So it's not God merely allowing suffering or not, like a distant kind of relative who's letting something in your door or not. God is present. He's active. He's with you. And with the trial, he's also going to provide a way out. So it doesn't mean he's gonna take the suffering away exactly, but the suffering has a purpose. That there's there's a destination.

Pat Millea [00:32:32]:
It it's moving in some direction. I see.

Pat Millea [00:32:49]:
The other thing I think, Father, that that again, I had not kind of considered this question that you brought up kinda in this way of when do we when do we just offer it up and accept the suffering that we've been given, and when do we move toward a place of healing and recovery and kind of moving away from suffering. I had never heard of it in terms of the kind of fruits of the Holy Spirit that you're bringing up Father. That in in the Christian life, in general, in any situation, it's a decent measure of how closely I am connected to Jesus if I assess my life by the fruits of the Holy Spirit. So am I a person of love, a person of joy, a person of peace, patience, kindness? Am I a kind, generous person? Am I a self controlled person? You know, that that's a that's a a reasonable litmus test, I would I would imagine, about whether my suffering is, for my good or not. If it's something that God really wants me to to live into and to redeem or to move away from.

Kenna Millea [00:33:53]:
Okay. So can I throw a curve ball, maybe wrench this for you all? Because I'm thinking about the countless clients that I get to be with in the midst of their suffering, of external circumstances. Right? So it's it's a marriage in which the spouse is not abusive. There's nothing that really warrants necessarily a separation or a divorce or annulment or anything like that, but there is immense suffering and and the spouse is is really not living up to the vocational call or connection to a parent or a sibling, who perhaps does have some kind of, you know, mental health disorder and it makes it so hard to be in relationship with them. A boss, you know, who is critical and just tears you down and just these situations of, like and so these clients are saying these real questions of, like, do I try to find a new job? Do I leave my husband? Do I cut my mother off? Do I cut my brother off? Like, how do we how can we discern Mhmm. What is appropriate of, like, this is a God-willed suffering? And then it's like, no. I gotta find the resources. I gotta find the agency and the will to, like, get up and go or, like, make a change, that is going to distance myself from the source of the suffering.

Kenna Millea [00:35:06]:
Does that make sense?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:08]:
No, it does. And it it is such a hard question. I mean, like, the the virtue that I would pull out to address that would always be prudence. And it it's kind of one of those hated virtues because it it sounds relativistic because prudence by its nature is applied uniquely to every situation as it weighs all the different facets. And how one gains prudence is either through experience, counsel, or learned experience. And so, like, either we have to try something and then it doesn't work or we ask some advice or maybe even read, like, a book or whatever. And, I mean, in those situations, like, with, let's say I mean, let's just pull on the one where there's, like, a spouse and they're not one of them is not living their thing or, like, I married this guy or this or I married this woman, and I thought that this would be who my life would look like. And suddenly they're playing video games all the time, or maybe they're just incredibly neglectful or selfish or, you know, maybe it's just something as simple as, like, they can't stop snoring. They won't get help for it, and I can't sleep at night.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:09]:
And I'm literally losing my mind. And it's not grounds for divorce, but, like, I hate my life right now. And these are real difficult questions. And, I mean, this is where I think we do need to talk about the the the word that I think gets thrown around in psychological circles a lot, boundaries. But I think that the reason it gets thrown around with such frequency is it's it has so much to do with so many problems. And so if the suffering, right, is not aimed at the possibility of sanctification, this is where, like, I kind of start to question about, like, okay. So at what what point do you have to say to your spouse if you're not going this is the snoring examples. Like, this is probably the easiest because it's not really volatile.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:54]:
If you're not gonna get this looked at, I'm gonna need to sleep in a different room.

Pat Millea [00:36:57]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:00]:
And if that doesn't wake the person up, just say, okay. So how am I gonna develop new coping skills around this? Right? Is to kind of test the waters with setting a boundary and to see how does it look. I mean, one of the things that Thomas Aquinas often talks about in regards to, when suffering cannot be overcome and, like, that's where he, like, implores anger. Like, sometimes anger is to overcome a suffering Yeah. Is then we shift to patient endurance, and that's where the virtue kind of grows. And so that's where we kind of see the shifting happen of an enduring some suffering and pain rather than striving against it. Does that make sense or is it too vague still?

Kenna Millea [00:37:37]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. I think that's I think that's hard for people to sort out when they are emotionally bound up in a situation. And so as I'm listening to it, it make it make sense, right, that clients clients come to me to talk about it because they're like, I need some objectivity. Mhmm. I need someone on the outside who isn't, you know, wrecked by the last three weeks of not sleeping and, like, the anger that I feel toward my spouse for being so selfish and snoring all night. But but I'm I'm thinking practically for those listening that, like, this idea of having some outside counsel because that prudence, I think, is difficult to, apply when our emotions are clouding our judgments.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:38:18]:
Yeah. And it's it's the pleasure pain principle as we always want to avoid the pain and move towards what is pleasurable. So this is where, like, prudence is important because it helps us to think. So even prudence governs temperance, which talks about pleasures. Right? So am I actually making a decision based on what is good? I mean, I I do think, though I mean, we have to look at our disposition. This is what I've really learned in, you know, meeting with people more over years is all of us have a different disposition on how much we think we deserve to suffer or how much, you know, I don't deserve to suffer. And, like, we have these different thresholds and these different narratives or schemas. I'm learning new words, Kenna.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:00]:
These different schemas that we have, we're we are willing to do something or not willing to do something. And what ends up happening is people will say, like, no. I just I I I'm not gonna suffer that way. I don't deserve that. You know, this in person went, and so they don't actually engage the question of, is this something that would be good for me to suffer with? Or the other way around of, like, my life, is terrible. I'm a horrible person. I've got I've got I deserve to be punished because of my bad decisions, and so I'm just going to endure this. See, both of those things have to do with what they're reinforcing in their mind versus the objective good of do I have to endure or overcome.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:37]:
Mhmm. This is what makes it very difficult to kind of give a unilateral counsel. The real question I have to look at, right, is is the suffering present bearing fruit? And if not, do I need to change my disposition internally of how I'm interacting with it or actually strive to move against the suffering and pain that's present?

Pat Millea [00:39:57]:
Yeah. Well and I I wonder too if that that virtue of prudence allows people to be a little more creative in response to suffering as well. The snoring example is a good one because I'm I'm sure it is very real for for some couples out there. But even something that's that's more to the heart of someone who's been betrayed by a spouse through adultery or pornography or something like that. Right? I I think at times there are these stark, extreme options that are presented to people and and, you know, one camp, oftentimes, unfortunately, a very Christian camp might say, sorry, your only option is to do nothing. Mhmm. And and they'll say, you know, I I would say maybe in most cases rightfully say, divorce is not an option. You married this person.

Pat Millea [00:40:44]:
That's a lifelong commitment. Okay. Fine. But then there's no next step or suggestion about how to accomplish healing in the face of that suffering. It's just a harsh, you are you are stuck this way. Right? And then on the other hand, a lot of people, and I've seen it, you know, in personal situations and on social media, they will be almost hurt themselves if that person chooses to stay with their spouse. That somehow it's it's an attack on their identity, an attack on anyone who's been betrayed if they choose to remain in that relationship or in that marriage. So if those are these two extremes, maybe prudence allows some space in the middle for the use of good healthy boundaries and being able to be clear about, like, this is not okay.

Pat Millea [00:41:31]:
I've been hurt deeper than I've ever been hurt in my life. I I I love you. I really don't enjoy being around you right now, and maybe there were some practical boundaries that I need to be set up in order to work toward healing, recovery, and a renewed sense of of love in our relationship. Mhmm. You know, not being stuck in those kind of two extremes.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:41:53]:
Yeah. I mean, I I'm actually it's kinda just triggering in me just some thoughts on so one of the one of the culminations in the spiritual life is what they call abandonment to divine providence or living in the present moment or, you know, living in the divine will is another really popular one now. But these are things where I think oftentimes rather than engaging the difficult of how do I discern am I to push against or endure As we kind of throw out those words of, you know, just just trust and just abandon. And actually, there's some times where the holy option is not one of those, but it's actually to engage the will to push against it. And the thing that's cool too is, like and this is what Aquinas is so beautiful about is he says, we've we we almost always first try to push against, and if we find we can't overcome, then we endure. And I mean, we even see this in the life of Christ. And I think Lent's a great time to reflect on this of where Christ keeps trying to push against the ignorance and the hatred and the misunderstanding of his mission until he realizes I can't work. They're not even listening to me anymore.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:59]:
They're not even seeing or hearing. So what does he do at the end of his trial? Silence.

Kenna Millea [00:43:04]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:05]:
And so, like, we Christ gives us a beautiful example to say, no. No. We do push against it until there really is not a way to push against it. And then I think this is where the grace comes in with that Corinthians passage is I've tried to resist the suffering and pain as much as possible. I can't. God, meet me with your grace.

Kenna Millea [00:43:25]:
Well, yeah. And it goes back to what you're saying about Aquinas' anger. Right? And I can't remember the exact quote. Father, you've used it many times when we've presented together, but anger is a good in so much as it gives us this energy and this drive to overcome the evil, unless it is apparent that the evil cannot be overcome and then it is to be endured. And I was I'm thinking about I'm reading, Chiara Corbella Petrillo's biography. So she, died in the I think in the

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:55]:
Is that the Focolare lady?

Kenna Millea [00:43:57]:
No. That's Chiara Luce Badano.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:58]:
Oh, sorry. Okay

Pat Millea [00:43:59]:
Chiara Badano.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:00]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:44:00]:
So we're just gonna describe all this because I actually know nothing about her life. Okay. So so okay. So it's reminding me that I am reading Chiara, what the heck is her name? Chiara Petrillo. Chiara Petrillo. Reminding me that I'm reading Chiara Petrillo's biography written by her two best friends, and her husband, was helping to edit it. And their the the story is so tragic of their family that their first two children, were found to have malformations that would make it life outside of the womb impossible. And then she herself died, of cancer, because she refused treatment while she was pregnant with her third child who who did live beyond infancy.

Kenna Millea [00:44:45]:
But what I'm finding as I read it, I'm I'm only through the the first two children and and their deaths. And so the the couple is finding this out when they're in the womb. And it is so fascinating that that there is this, like, vigilance around prayer and I'm petitioning the Lord at the beginning of these diagnoses. And then when it becomes clear, when the doctors are like, this is the reality, you know, one was anencephalic. This child doesn't have a skull. This child is the second child was missing vital organs, That they that they then turn to how do we carry this child for as long as God asks us? And it does feel like this shift that you're describing, Father, of of, like, we're gonna do whatever we can. We're gonna certainly not abort the baby. We're gonna carry this baby, and give it every fighting chance it can.

Kenna Millea [00:45:30]:
And then when when the medical information is so clear, not that they took any interventions to change anything, but, but they said, okay. Like, this this is we are accepting the suffering. Her quote, which I'm gonna butcher, and I won't say it as eloquently as she does, but it's something along the lines of, like, we as parents, we are asked to to care for our children as long as God needs us to, to to bring them to his hands. And and she was like, for this baby, it was 37. Or, you know, for this child, it was half an hour after her birth. But just that shift, and I think we do see that in the lives of the holy ones. And people would remark about her and her husband and Rico's joy even if she carried this baby in her womb that she knew she she wouldn't get to bring home from the hospital. They're like, how can you be so joyful? And it's to what you're saying.

Kenna Millea [00:46:16]:
Like, that is the fruit. Right? This this was a well discerned, course for them, because the fruit was there. The the life of Christ was in them. I'm thinking about, like, is there a a, like, a broad statement of when you talk about schemas, right, when you talk about this story that we hold, as Catholics, as Christians, is there a schema that we would say is most healthy, is most theologically astute, is most reflective of what we know of Jesus and who we are called to be as Christians? Because as you're talking, I'm thinking about, like, what is my schema? Like, I don't know if you're there, Pat, but, like, I'm thinking about, like, what do I tell myself? And I tell myself that my God is on the cross and that when I suffer for whatever means, my own, like, self inflicted because I made a poor choice or, external forces, like, that is an opportunity to be close to him, that it's an opportunity to have intimacy with him. And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know if that's the most correct or, you know, if there's something that I'm missing, but I'm like, yeah. Is there, like, an ultimate that we should all be striving to, like, authentically believe, live, hold in our hearts?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:47:32]:
Yeah. It's a fair question. And I I loved how you even volunteered your own kind of schema or narrative and story inside your mind.

Kenna Millea [00:47:39]:
Yeah, go easy on me, okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:47:40]:
No. No. I just I I really loved it because I think that there there isn't a universal application because, I mean, how we engage suffering, it's really in a relational dynamic. And so if there was one common theme, it's how am I in relationship with Christ in the midst of my own suffering and pain. So how yours is, right, as you see Christ on the cross and you're acknowledging, you know, all the weaknesses that I have and what he's done for me and how I wanna replicate that. For another person, it's going to be a completely different facet of Christ experienced these things too, and I wanna be in union with him. And, you know, another person might experience it like, lord, I wanna do this because I wanna show that I am your disciple. Like, all of those are correct, but the thing that they all have in common is it's in relationship with Christ. So I think there I think it's the Galatians two twenty passage of it's no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:31]:
Mhmm. I think that that's actually the best kind of, thing to have universally for Christians is however suffering is is I'm actually in union with Christ. And and this is what he came to do is he came to give us a pattern to live in rather than what the disciples wanted was a magic wand to wave away all the suffering and pain. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:48:51]:
Don't go to Jerusalem, Jesus. No. They're gonna kill you there. Don't do that.

Kenna Millea [00:48:54]:
Yep. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:54]:
Exactly. And, you know, like, heaven forbid that

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:56]:
should happen to you, Lord. Like, stop talking about that.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:58]:
And he's like, get behind me, Satan. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is the this is the Latin root of compassion. It's with suffering. And what does Christ offer to us but the ultimate compassion? I am with you in your suffering. Will you be with me in yours?

Pat Millea [00:49:14]:
Mhmm. What about a challenge by choice, Father? What's a way that somebody can start kind of living this this life of of accepting and understanding suffering better.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:23]:
Yeah. I mean, what

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:24]:
I'd what I'd honestly say is the first step is what I kinda gave in the practicals is either find a friend, a spouse, a sibling, or in just write in a journal or even do, like, a video recording of saying, like, here is what is most painful and causing me pain and just give it as detailed as possible even if you, like and we would only to talk about it sometimes because it's like, I don't wanna sound like a victim or I'm not burying my cross or now I shared what I'm suffering. But, like, just to somehow get it out there so that you can have the full story of what's causing pain. And just hearing that itself then can kind of help us to say, how do I wanna engage this? I don't think a lot of people do that because either we don't wanna sound we don't wanna sound like we're complaining or, you know, maybe we don't have a person to say that to or, like, it just feels weird to do, but I think it's really vital to appropriately know how should I calibrate to suffering in my life.

Pat Millea [00:50:17]:
Interesting. Fascinating. That's great. Awesome. Well, would you mind praying for us, Father, so we can suffer better? We can be a little bit healthier and holier as we go forward?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:28]:
Absolutely. I'd be happy to. Great. Thank you. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Good and gracious God, you have sent us the gift of your Son that in the midst of our own suffering, we would never be alone. We ask for the grace this day that our eyes may be opened to see how you are asking us to respond to the own our own burdens and difficulties in our life.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:52]:
May you grant us profound sight. May you grant us courage. May you grant us wisdom and prudence. May you grant us the gift of perseverance and long suffering. We ask for the powerful intercession of so many saints who have heroically lived the path of crucifixion with great joy. Grant us the ability not to be sorry saints, but to be lights in this world. For truly, you, Christ, have overcome all things, and it is in your name that we pray. Amen.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:25]:
Amen. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen.

Kenna Millea [00:51:28]:
Oh, thank you so much, Father Nathan, for being here, for, yeah, letting us gain from your education, from your experience, and your wisdom. Thank you, my darling love, for leading us as always. And thank you, listeners, for being with us again. Harkening back to that request we made at the beginning of this episode to join This Whole Life community through your financial support at ko-fi.com/thiswholelife, to make your one time or ongoing contribution to help support the good work of This Whole Life. And until next time, God bless you.

Pat Millea [00:52:00]:
God bless you. Happy Lent. This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center for Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Kenna Millea [00:52:29]:
Also, today, I had a brilliant idea in Mass, feast of saints Perpetua and Felicity. Mhmm. If we ever have another daughter, Perpetua, nickname Pippa. Isn't that so cute?

Pat Millea [00:52:41]:
It's pretty cute.

Kenna Millea [00:52:42]:
Pippa Millea.

Pat Millea [00:52:43]:
Yeah. That is pretty cute.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:44]:
That's really cute. If we have another daughter, that's this is new .

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:47]:
I thought you were I thought you were like

Pat Millea [00:52:48]:
You think you're surprised?

Kenna Millea [00:52:51]:
I just mean, like, gentlemen, I'll be notified along with you all. I got it. I got it.