Ep73 Don't Be An Antithesis

Jesus said to him, “What if I want him to remain until I come? What concern is it of yours? You follow me.”
~ John 21:22

Why do I get so angry at others' opinions & actions?
How am I supposed to handle the evil & falsehood in the world?
Why is it easier for me to explain what I'm against than what I'm for?

In episode 73 of This Whole Life, hosts Kenna and Pat Millea welcome back Fr. Nathan LaLiberte for a candid conversation about identity, vulnerability, and the subtle trap of living in antithesis—defining ourselves primarily by what we’re against. Together, they explore how easy it is to move through life reacting to what we don’t like or want, rather than proactively following Christ’s invitation to an authentic identity rooted in his love. With honesty and a good dose of humor, the trio reflects on the pitfalls of fear-based living, the grace of following Christ, and the challenge of forging deeper relationships built on shared pursuits rather than shared enemies. From the temptations of social media outrage and cable news to the deeper work of self-reflection and forgiveness, this episode invites listeners to consider what truly forms their identity—and how to embrace a more Christ-centered, joyful life.

Episode 73 Show Notes

Chapters:

0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
16:24: Don't be an antithesis
26:34: The temptations & evils of resentment
33:07: Recognizing antithesis in my own life
42:32: Where am I putting my energy?
51:53: The personal invitation to follow Jesus
54:19: Challenge By Choice

Reflection Questions:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. Is it easier for you to be against things or for Christ?
3. How do media, especially social media, affect your opinions and reactions to others?
4. When have you vowed to "never" be like someone or do something? How did that impact the way that you approached daily life?
5. How can you take practical steps to living for Christ and allowing him to guide your responses to the sins & shortcomings of the world?

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 16:24 Don't be an antithesis
• 26:34 The temptations & evils of resentment
• 33:07 Recognizing antithesis in my own life
• 42:32 Where am I putting my energy?
• 51:53 The personal invitation to follow Jesus
• 54:19 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Pat Millea [00:00:00]:
Jesus is radically against some things, and he is not quiet about the things that he is against. But even more than he is against those things, he is for his Father, and he is confirmed in his own identity.

Kenna Millea [00:00:20]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm with my husband, Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader. We invite you to our kitchen table. Okay. Not literally, but but you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes. We're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes. It is not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care. So let's get talking about This Whole Life.

Kenna Millea [00:01:13]:
Welcome back to This Whole Life. It is awesome to be with you. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in. And today, to my right, I have my beloved.

Pat Millea [00:01:23]:
They'll have to take your word for it because

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:24]:
Welcome, Pat Millea.

Pat Millea [00:01:25]:
What if you were lying

Pat Millea [00:01:26]:
and I was on your left, but

Kenna Millea [00:01:28]:
you And on my left. Father Nathan LaLiberte.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:32]:
Thank you very much.

Kenna Millea [00:01:32]:
Welcome, welcome.

Pat Millea [00:01:34]:
Greetings and cheers. Hello. Hello. How are you doing over there, Padre?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:37]:
Very well. Thank you. I have the best seat in the house.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:39]:
I am rocking back and forth. It is so good.

Pat Millea [00:01:41]:
You are like you have a you have a bit of sage wisdom in your little rocking armchair over there.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:46]:
It's like, I don't know. I might rock myself to sleep after

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:49]:
eating some lunch.

Pat Millea [00:01:50]:
Just not during, please.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:51]:
Yeah. I will not.

Pat Millea [00:01:52]:
That would be great.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:53]:
There's no comment. It's, I'm deeply contemplating, so just give me a moment.

Kenna Millea [00:01:57]:
Well, before you get there, can we check-in on life lately? Father, can we start with you? Highs and hards.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:04]:
So I'm gonna be a little bit whiny right now.

Kenna Millea [00:02:05]:
Okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:06]:
I feel like I'm back in high school, but I'm gonna whine about the hard being one of my classes, statistics.

Kenna Millea [00:02:14]:
And there's, like, an audible, oh,

Kenna Millea [00:02:16]:
from the whole crowd.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:17]:
I mean, so I I entered into this program because I I love people. I love psychological health. I don't love numbers. Like, I think I thought that was, like, part of the deal. Like, you go into these helping professions, and everyone knows you don't like that. Like, that side of your brain is, like, atrophied or something like that. And the other part is, like, bigger.

Kenna Millea [00:02:34]:
They're like, we gotta analyze that data.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:36]:
Oh, it's so bad. And I I just

Pat Millea [00:02:39]:
I try to feel like stats classes for any of the social sciences. Like, we had to take stats for sociology, psychology, like, anything like that. I feel like it's really for the one person out of 80 who is gonna do research as their career in that social science. Right? The other 79

Kenna Millea [00:02:56]:
But we all have to be filtered through it.

Pat Millea [00:02:57]:
Correct. Right. The other because no one would voluntarily sign up for that. I feel like one out of eighties and they're like, Well, this is actually fun.

Kenna Millea [00:03:05]:
That's that's

Kenna Millea [00:03:05]:
actually a pretty poor statistic of stuff.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:08]:
Oh, well done.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:09]:
Very well done.

Pat Millea [00:03:10]:
What's the standard deviation on that. I don't remember what that means. I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:13]:
don't remember

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:13]:
what you are.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:15]:
So I I'm gonna I'm just gonna whine a little bit about it. I mean, it's just I I I I don't know why I can't do it very well, but

Kenna Millea [00:03:21]:
I was gonna say, yeah. What is it about it?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:23]:
I get oh, so I I I see the problem. I see the numbers with the problem, and then there's all these random formulas that, like, literally have Greek images in them, and you're supposed to know what formula to pick to get the thing that you need for that. And I'm just like, oh, I would love to just pay someone to do that for me. But, like, there's

Pat Millea [00:03:47]:
You are describing Pat Millea two thousand two roughly.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:51]:
Really?

Pat Millea [00:03:52]:
My my sociology stats class Good. Was just torture. It just it's a foreign language that I don't care to learn. I just yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:59]:
So I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:59]:
think we get to add that as one more bonding thing between us.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:03]:
So we're we're in movies, Moulin Rouge,

Pat Millea [00:04:06]:
correct.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:06]:
Good music.

Pat Millea [00:04:08]:
Hatred for stats.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:08]:
hatred for stats, Marvel universe. Yeah. It's just, it all comes together. So multiple then overlaps. My high though is, I was recommended, the author Eric Varden. He's a Bishop. I think he's in Norway.

Pat Millea [00:04:24]:
I'm not Yeah. I've heard of this guy.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:25]:
Why

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:25]:
Oh my gosh. He's

Kenna Millea [00:04:26]:
probably from Father Nathan.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:27]:
He's a Possibly, actually. So I I was so Father John Nepil, he's, does the podcast, Catholic stuff you should know. He's a friend of mine. And he sent me, Shattering the Loneliness, which is one of Eric Varden's books. And I read it and his how he writes is so different than the other author. Like, he ties in, you know, Greek philosophers and poetry and, like, different, writers from all over the world and different and he, like, quotes the first the primary language it's written in, and then he'll translate it into English. But, like, the level of depth he has, it's it's it's like you it's like a phenomenological approach to something because he keeps rotating it in different ways. He wrote another book cleverly titled Chastity, if you can imagine what it's on.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:15]:
And it and so I just finished it, and it it was so beautifully done. Like, it was, like, probably the most inspiring expose on chastity. And it wasn't, like, the typical, like, don't have sex or, like, you know, be tempered in how you engage sex sexuality. It it was like, here is why sexuality exists, and here's how it looks out through the ancients. And here's, like, where it it hinders the person's progress. Here's where it allows for growth. And he gives some, like, old parables and images of, like, what the Garden of Eden was like, which I'd never heard before. And I just I don't know.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:50]:
I just I so it was so refreshing to read. So that that's my high is just kinda coming off of that.

Kenna Millea [00:05:56]:
Sounds like he really esteems his readers. Like, he he gives them a lot of credit of, like, I'm gonna feed you the good. I'm gonna give you the filet mignon. I'm gonna give you the strained peas. Like That's right. You know, I'm just gonna give it to you after I've thought about it, come up with an answer solution. Like, he's really letting you grapple, like, along with him.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:14]:
That is a great insight. I I like that articulation. Yeah. So Erik Erik Varden. I highly recommend it. Nice.

Kenna Millea [00:06:20]:
We shall link him in the show notes.

Pat Millea [00:06:21]:
Alright.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:24]:
Paper, rock, scissors, here we go

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:25]:
Paper,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:26]:
rock, scissors.

Pat Millea [00:06:26]:
Ladies second?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:27]:
What are we doing?

Pat Millea [00:06:28]:
We just turned to each other and looked expectantly waiting for the other one to speak.

Kenna Millea [00:06:34]:
I shall go. Thank you. So hard lately, has been yeah. Just the I I don't know if you guys ever have this experience. I'm not gonna look at my husband right now when I say this. But, but a lot

Pat Millea [00:06:48]:
Well I'm looking at you, so too bad.

Kenna Millea [00:06:51]:
Like, you recognize you don't have a lot of of empathy for folks, and you're like, this is a me problem. You know, like, it it's it's it's not just like, oh, that one person's really annoying. It's like you're finding fault with so many different folks, and you're like, and I think I know where the issue lies. And so it's the I'm in that state of, like, noticing it, but I haven't yet sat with it long enough to be like, but why is this happening? Like, what's going on? It's kind of been in the back of my mind for a bit now of, like, something's not right that I don't have the capacity to love and to be present with others the way that I want to be. And it's not like I just, like, doubled my caseload or something. Like, there's there's nothing that is so obvious to me, that there's this new, like, drain on my empathic stores. But yeah. So just this, like, oh, and so that's gonna need some reflection this weekend.

Kenna Millea [00:07:46]:
My high is that, the the student has become the teacher. Hey. And, our oldest is a bibliophile. I mean, she is just as long as she has a book in this world, like, all is she doesn't even, like, ride to Target, which is, like, seven minutes away. She doesn't even ride to Target with me in the car if I ask her just to accompany me for a drive up order without a book. Like, she just, like, is always it's

Kenna Millea [00:08:11]:
her forever friend. And so lately, I have been having more time to read leisurely fiction and getting a lot of recommendations from her. Or the other funny thing is I'll get recommendations from friends, and then she sees the stack of library books first. She reads them all first and then will be like, mom, that one's garbage. Try that one. That one was really good. Oh, I love the arc of the story there. That author is really exciting.

Kenna Millea [00:08:33]:
Like

Pat Millea [00:08:33]:
She's like rotten tomatoes for book reviews.

Kenna Millea [00:08:36]:
She should start a website that could that could be like a a liberal arts student's review.

Pat Millea [00:08:42]:
Yep. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Kenna Millea [00:08:43]:
So anyway but it's been really fun and really sweet. And it's also just this, you know, teenagers and they

Kenna Millea [00:08:50]:
get a rap and a rep for a reason because they do tend to be tight lipped and not so,

Kenna Millea [00:08:52]:
because they do tend to be tight lipped and not so generous with their sharing of of their inner workings. And so to know what books she likes, to know what books repulse her, it is letting me know something about her. It certainly also gives us content to just, like, talk about.

Pat Millea [00:09:11]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:09:11]:
But it's been really fun, and I love the things that she loves. I mean, just the characters she loves, they're just so redeeming and beautiful and virtuous and, yeah, really lovely. So that's been a highlight.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:21]:
She got me hooked on Keepers of the Lost Kingdom.

Kenna Millea [00:09:23]:
Yeah. Keepers of the lost city.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:24]:
Keepers of the Lost City. I'm sorry. Yes. I'm like, so I read nine

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:27]:
That's right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:28]:
Books because of your daughter.

Pat Millea [00:09:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. And it was

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:30]:
just, like, kinda some casual comment, and I got hooked. And Yeah. So she's she's good.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:36]:
She is good. That website may be promising.

Kenna Millea [00:09:38]:
I I had her review our chapter book library because our you know, we've got kids that are growing up and reading more things and she put pulled a bunch of things out. And one set she I told Pat this later. She She looked to me and she was I forget what series it was. And she was like, I probably shouldn't have read that, mom. And I was like, oh my gosh.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:53]:
She was like, seriously.

Kenna Millea [00:09:55]:
She's like she's like she's like, I mean, I could handle it. She's like, but I wouldn't let the other kids read this. I was like, dang it.

Pat Millea [00:10:01]:
She's been given she's been given a very beautiful heart for for truth and goodness and has a hard time settling for anything less than that, which is so great. And brings up some particular challenges, but I'll take those challenges. That's fine.

Kenna Millea [00:10:14]:
So that's me.

Kenna Millea [00:10:15]:
Where are

Kenna Millea [00:10:15]:
you at, babe?

Pat Millea [00:10:16]:
You would like me to go now?

Kenna Millea [00:10:17]:
I really would.

Pat Millea [00:10:18]:
I'm just kidding. I think, my hard, is, some of the and it's a good hard. It's the kind of hard that I I am glad to have. It's the kind of hard that comes with the growing pains of the organization that you and I run kinda just, continuing to to to grow and develop and unfold. And, you know, in a business that's only two and a half years old that you and I run together, there are growing pains that are associated with taking on new clinicians and therapists and being able to take on and help more clients therefore and what that means for space and buildings and technology and just all kinds of things that I I really am glad to have those problems because it means that we're able to serve well. It means that people are trusting us with either their job, like, their livelihood that they're willing to work for us or with their care that they're willing to come see a therapist that works with us. It it's it's the best kind of hard, but there are just some difficulties that you and I keep having to have lots of ongoing conversations kinda about being prudent and wise with our resources and making sure that we're growing in a way that's intentional and strategic and saying yes to the things we should and saying no to the things that we should, you know. So, a hard, but thanks be to God for that hard.

Pat Millea [00:11:37]:
It's beautiful. My high is terribly superficial, and it's just a TV show that I really enjoy. And that's all. The show Severance is very popular.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:11:48]:
Oh. Oh.

Pat Millea [00:11:48]:
Do you watch Severance?

Pat Millea [00:11:49]:
I love it. Of course, you do.

Kenna Millea [00:11:51]:
I've never heard of this in my whole life. What? You're watching a show?

Pat Millea [00:11:53]:
So it is.

Kenna Millea [00:11:55]:
Where do you you watch this at the gym?

Pat Millea [00:11:57]:
Oh, my love.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:11:57]:
Apple Apple plus.

Pat Millea [00:11:58]:
I do frequently watch it at the gym. Yes. Okay. It is, a show, set up in, like, a world like ours, but the key difference is there's this huge mega corporation called Lumon, and no one really knows what kind of work they do. But there's a whole basement floor of the company where there are severed employees who have chosen to have an implant put in their brains that completely separates their work life and their personal life. So when they go to work, they go down an elevator and they immediately their work self wakes up and the last thing their work self remembers was getting in that elevator the evening before. So the work self only exists at work at the office.

Kenna Millea [00:12:39]:
To hear the problems.

Pat Millea [00:12:40]:
And the personal self only exists out in the real world.

Kenna Millea [00:12:43]:
Just kidding.

Pat Millea [00:12:44]:
So slowly you get to figure out, okay, why would someone choose to do this to themselves? There's all kinds of reasons around grief and meaning and suffering, things like that. But I I love psychological thrillers. I'm not a big horror movie guy like I don't get down with the Saw movies and like No. Gross stuff like that but I love kind of creepy thinker movies and TV shows so like Shutter Island and Inception and just, like, really thought provoking memento movies like that, you know. And this is, like, the TV version of that. It is fascinating. So

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:17]:
And the director and writer Yeah. Ben Stiller.

Pat Millea [00:13:21]:
That's right. Yeah. Ben Stiller.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:22]:
Which is shocking. Shocking.

Kenna Millea [00:13:24]:
Shocking. Of Zoolander fame.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:25]:
Yes. How far Orange Mogulapade frappuccinos. Jitterbug.

Pat Millea [00:13:30]:
Look how far Zoolander has come.

Pat Millea [00:13:32]:
Yeah. Greg Focker. Look

Pat Millea [00:13:34]:
how far he's come.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:13:35]:
And he severed himself to get that movie made.

Pat Millea [00:13:39]:
No. So I I it's it is an excellent show. It's just really well made, really smart. It's like edge of your seat type stuff, but it's kind of a slow burn. It develops over time. But it's a fascinating reflection, I think, on the meaning of work from from a Catholic perspective because the corporation of Lumon is everything every way that you can look at work falsely is what they do. So, like, what what do people complain about their jobs? I just go and I I punch in, punch out, and it it has no meaning. Well, the people that work at Lumen don't even know what they're doing.

Pat Millea [00:14:14]:
They have no idea how their little stupid task what it's for, what it contributes to. They they leave and they go back home, and they don't even know what they did at work. It's totally divorced, totally separate. They're being they find out kinda gradually they're being used and ground up and manipulated by the company itself. It it it just it it's a fascinating reflection on the meaning of good work and that work is a gift, not a burden if we look at it the right way. And what it means to have, like, companies and organizations and nations that foster good healthy work. Anyway, so

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:48]:
Kenna, are you

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:48]:
ready to psychoanalyze Pat? So his hard was Yeah. Work Yeah. And he's being drawn to the show called Severance Yeah. Which you don't actually engage work. You just love life. I do think about that. Isn't that weird?

Pat Millea [00:15:00]:
No. I'm critical. Lumon is terrible. I don't like I don't want to be severed.

Pat Millea [00:15:05]:
I don't want to be severed. Definitely.

Kenna Millea [00:15:06]:
Down with Lumon.

Pat Millea [00:15:07]:
Mostly because I work with you, and I would have to be married to you two different ways if I was severed.

Kenna Millea [00:15:12]:
And that sounds terrible.

Pat Millea [00:15:13]:
That's weird. Right? Yeah. Two times marriage

Kenna Millea [00:15:16]:
to the same person no less.

Pat Millea [00:15:17]:
It would be it would just be a lot for both of us probably. It's fine.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:22]:
Oh my gosh.

Pat Millea [00:15:23]:
Oh, man. Well, I am super excited to to have both

Kenna Millea [00:15:26]:
of us. Know what we're talking about?

Pat Millea [00:15:27]:
I do. Know what we're talking about.

Kenna Millea [00:15:28]:
Should I kickoff?

Pat Millea [00:15:29]:
Do you know? How about you?

Kenna Millea [00:15:29]:
Say. Yes. So I'm gonna start this episode because, Father, oh my gosh. I don't even know how many years ago. I'm gonna guess, maybe ten years ago, you and I were in a conversation, and there are some things that I said clearly, that that resulted in you reflecting back to me this this question of, like, where are you gathering your sense of identity, Kenna? And what you said to me was, do not live your life as an antithesis. So if anyone ever wants to know, is Father Nathan a great spiritual director? Yes. And also, it's hard. So so so do not live your life as an antithesis.

Kenna Millea [00:16:09]:
And you went on to share with me that we don't find our identity by living in reaction and opposition to things that we encounter in the world. It's good information, but that's not how we actually gain an authentic sense of personhood.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:25]:
That's right.

Kenna Millea [00:16:26]:
And so now I'm just gonna hand it off to you. Keep on

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:29]:
You want me to talk about why

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:30]:
I was referring to that?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:31]:
Is that in your life?

Kenna Millea [00:16:32]:
My personal life? Yes. If you can remember the details No.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:36]:
Not 10 ago. Sorry. It's all mushed. Yeah. I I I think the principle at least that you bring up and, I mean, I'm still convicted even as you say those words in my own life is, I think it's easier to say who we don't want to be than who we want to be. And it's not uncommon for me actually in confession when someone's come to confession and they maybe haven't been for a while. I'll affirm them to say, okay. You just spent the past however many minutes it was telling me who you aren't.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:06]:
Do you know who you're going to be when you leave? And this is oftentimes what happens when we live in antithesis is we just keep saying, well, I don't wanna be like this. Okay. What do you wanna be like then? And, honestly, I don't think people know how to answer that question. And when I bring that up in confession, especially, people get really uncomfortable because they've put all of this energy into who I don't wanna be. They don't actually know what they wanna do. And so, I mean, it it really comes from, like, that John three thirty is he must increase, I must decrease. And this is the paradigm that Christ gives to us is we actually are coming to be like him, not telling him who I don't wanna be and then we'd be like him. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:48]:
And I think sometimes we get the cart before the horse, and we get this idea in our mind of I just don't want this, and that's not a good direction.

Pat Millea [00:17:57]:
I I it it strikes me that I think that would lead to a pretty keen sense of aimlessness. If all I'm doing is moving away from things, like a like a positive magnet and another positive magnet. Right? If I'm just being pushed away from the things I know I don't like, that's good and fine and it's really healthy to identify that, like, I I am very pro life. So I'm against abortion, and I'm against the death penalty, and I'm against, unjust immigration practices, and I'm against, poverty and homelessness. Right? That I'm against all those things. That is good. I would I would agree with all those things. And also, if I'm only moving away from something, then am I moving into a void? Am I moving toward other things that are also not really good for me or not my identity?

Kenna Millea [00:18:46]:
Well, and I think too, it it reveals and I can think about this, like you said, Father, like, I'm convicted as we talk about this. Like, it reveals, yes, there is this first level instinctual reaction. Like, oh, I don't like that thing, and I I wanna get away with I don't I don't wanna be near that. I don't want to espouse that or embody that. But it it stops short of the reflection of, like, what is it about that that I don't like? What is it about unjust immigration policies, Pat, that that really just ruffles you? You know, like, to to to dig deeper. And and to me, that's where we find those transcendentals, and that's where we find Christ. Like, it's in knowing what is it that speaks to me. There's something at my core.

Kenna Millea [00:19:26]:
There's something really innate in me that is pulled away from that thing and drawn towards something else.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:31]:
And I think I mean, here's just, like, a really casual example, but it's easier to say, here's what I don't want to eat than to say, here's where I want to eat. And so, like, even if someone says, like, hey, where should we go tonight? Like, I don't know. I just I just don't wanna do x, y, or z versus to say, here's where I'm I'm moving towards. Right? And and I think that that we have so many strong preferences, especially in our country. Like, we know what we don't wanna be, but we we're not giving vision forward.

Kenna Millea [00:19:59]:
Well, I think that dinner example is is it kinda sounds silly, but I think there is this nugget of truth of, like, to say what we are for is actually quite vulnerable. Right? I'm I'm I'm, like, open to criticism. Like, if I tell you right? Something so silly. Like, if I said to you, if you all ask me right now, like, where should I go to lunch? And I'm like, anything but Chinese. Like, not that vulnerable. If I was like, oh, I really like some Mexican right now. What? Girl, you eat that all the time. Like, you know, you open yourself up to people's reaction and response.

Kenna Millea [00:20:28]:
Yeah. But when you say, well, I'm not about this thing. Well, I could be about a million other things, and I avoid this sense of criticism or attack or really being known, which is risky.

Pat Millea [00:20:39]:
Because merely being against something doesn't mean that I'm staking my claim on anything. It doesn't mean I'm letting you know what I stand for, what what my values are, what my priorities are. All that I have told you is out of the host of an infinite number of possibilities, I'm against that one. That's it. Right? And I I just can I tell you what, like, one of the first ways this showed up for me in especially in ministry, I I was a youth minister for fifteen years in parishes and there was a tendency that sometimes I was tempted toward but just temperament wise, I I have many flaws, many problems? This typically was not one of them. But I would see this oftentimes in in other youth ministers, even really great friends of mine. People, you know, speakers, things like this would would make this move sometimes. And I have to give it the caveat, first of all, of saying, like, by and large, all the individuals I've ever met who are tempted in this direction are wonderful, faithful people.

Pat Millea [00:21:37]:
So this is not a criticism of the person, but I think the temptation is problematic. And the temptation is this. I mean, on one hand, if we belong to Jesus, we will be hated by the world. He actually promises that. Right? John chapter 15 verse 19. Like, if if we belong to him, the world will hate us. And that is a reality that we all have to accept. We're gonna be persecuted in his name.

Pat Millea [00:22:01]:
Blessed are we. That's great. But because that is true, there can be the temptation to seek out the hatred of others as proof positive that I belong to Jesus. So instead of pursuing Christ and accepting the the persecution that comes from it The

Kenna Millea [00:22:19]:
natural consequences.

Pat Millea [00:22:21]:
Willingly moving toward persecution so that I can remind myself. I can be confident. I can tell myself. Mhmm. I can console myself maybe is the way to put it, that I belong to Jesus. Putting the cart before the horse, like you said, Father. So It's like

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:36]:
being belligerent.

Pat Millea [00:22:37]:
Yeah. So in a way, maybe it's, like, frankly, just picking fights. Yeah. Maybe it's it's getting into fights or saying things that are intentionally provocative, controversial, maybe even hurtful because there is a seed of truth in them. And I want to console myself about my relationship with Christ by standing on this one particular truth. And maybe it's not so much about pursuing Jesus. It's about being right and standing for the truth in this one particular situation. Right?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:08]:
Yeah. No. I think it's definitely a facet. I think there's a there's a lot that we do, and I I loved your point kinda too about being vulnerable. Yeah. Because I think when we say, like, well, here's all the people I'm against, like like, almost hate speech kind of thing. Like, there is no vulnerability into it. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:26]:
It's just really aggressive and definitive. But, I mean, I would say at least kinda the initial thing that you bring up, I think I I I commonly hear it. It's not just from you. I'm sorry. You're so any of my directees are listening to this. They're probably like, oh, he just uses that line all the time. But but I think that there is something because a lot of us, even as we're moving in a direction of saying, like, what do I want to be? Oftentimes, there's a lot more examples in our life of who we don't wanna be. And so we kind of, like, either, like, in in some circles, they'd call it, like, a curse of oneself of saying, like, I will not become like this person.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:03]:
And I you hear a lot around parents. Like, I won't be, you know, passive aggressive like my mom, or I won't be angry like my dad. And so we we live our entire life, and that's the goal that I become a good person is that I'm not like someone.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:17]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:18]:
But I mean here's the sad news flash is the odds of you becoming exactly that are very high. Because And

Kenna Millea [00:24:25]:
that's how I live my life.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:26]:
Because our entire life is devoted to not being something rather than to actually becoming something. So if I say my entire life, I'm not gonna be an angry person. I become so hyper fixated on that that the anger actually doesn't integrate, and it probably starts flying out in awkward ways that I become blind to it. And this is like where Freud would have a field day of like, we become blinded and we, we, we don't want to see it. And so actually by living in antithesis, we blind ourselves to see those faults because they're so distressing to us to actually have in our mind. Mhmm. Mhmm. Ver can I say, like, the versus quick? So, like, having a parent that maybe we don't like one of their aspects or attributes, and then we instead of saying, I don't want ever be like them, as you say, oh, there's there's probably a possibility that I'm gonna have some of their traits.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:16]:
Mhmm. And then when it shows up to be like, oh my gosh. I responded just like my dad, or I responded just like my mom. And then from there to say, okay, how do I wanna respond instead? It's a very different way to hold our lives. Mhmm. What were you gonna say, Ken? I'm sorry to interrupt you.

Kenna Millea [00:25:32]:
No. No. No. No. As you were talking though, it made me realize that that the life the antithetical life is one of such anger Mhmm. And and such resentment. And it's just it's like a resentment. And it's just it's like a hardened as I was listening to you, Pat, describe a phenomenon that we've observed primarily in social media and in just media and Catholic kind of celebrity culture.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:54]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:25:55]:
My biggest pet peeve, and so help me, we will never do this on This Whole Life, is the reaction videos where have you seen these, Father, where the the the host, whoever's channel it's on, whatever, is has another video they're watching. Like, maybe it's a pro life person watching a pro choice.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:12]:
They're commenting on the video?

Pat Millea [00:26:13]:
So you're watching someone watch something.

Kenna Millea [00:26:17]:
And And they're reacting. Right? And they're abhorred, and they're like, oh my gosh. That's disgusting. Whatever. Then the other video closes out, and then the personality, like, says, like, and this is what's wrong with that, whatever. I have a hard time with those. So anyways

Pat Millea [00:26:29]:
I am I am confirmed in not doing that on our Instagram. That's fine. Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:26:33]:
But but all that to say, like, what it what it really does is it it creates, yeah, this culture of of anger, of hatred, of hardness of heart toward each other. And one that's, like, pretty rigid of, like, there can be no passive aggression in me. There can be no anger in me. Well, I don't know. I've never met a human who isn't at a time passive aggressive or at times angry. And so then what happens when it shows up in us, like that self hatred, that self loathing versus what is the alternative, which is actually something like empathy of like, oh, dang. All those times I was so hard on my dad for being angry. And here I am flying off the handle at my kids.

Kenna Millea [00:27:10]:
You know, like

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:11]:
Isn't that hard to say though?

Kenna Millea [00:27:12]:
It is. But, like, that's that's what we're missing out on Yeah. When we're living the antithetical life.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:16]:
That's right.

Kenna Millea [00:27:17]:
When it's like, I will not be that thing. And here I just said, I will not be an Instagram person.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:23]:
Oh, the irony. Oh my gosh.

Kenna Millea [00:27:25]:
On me

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:26]:
my friends.

Kenna Millea [00:27:26]:
Please don't be too quick on your keyboard with our comments there.

Pat Millea [00:27:30]:
You're such an antithesis right now.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:31]:
Oh my gosh. That's funny.

Kenna Millea [00:27:33]:
But but yeah, but but this awareness of, like, is that going to move us toward the heart of Christ that we are trying to reflect when we live with that kind of anger closed mindedness and and, yeah, just hardness, like those those really tall cinder block walls around us.

Pat Millea [00:27:50]:
And it it it's tempting. I can imagine that it's really tempting because, you know what being antithetical does do is it creates interest and it creates attention and it creates likes and shares and retweets and comments. Right? Like, it creates engagement. And especially in a world that is driven by social media, whether you and I are using social media right now or not, so much of our our actions, our conceptions of the world around us are driven by social media. We we've started to envision our own life, our own personhood as a product to be marketed and sold to others. So I want a measurable response to every one of my comments, my jokes, my my actions. Right? The the problem is that living as an antithesis is really attractive to some people. Because all the people that are also against that thing, they're gonna rally to my defense, and they're gonna be really excited about it.

Pat Millea [00:28:48]:
And sneaky enough, the people who hate my take and they disagree with me,

Kenna Millea [00:28:52]:
Also engaged.

Pat Millea [00:28:53]:
They're gonna argue in the comments. And all of a sudden, I have a lot of eyeballs on Instagram or TikTok or whatever. Right? So it it it is tempting, and I get the worldly drive to function in that way. I just don't think it's conducive to the most integrated authentic Christian life. You can read through all the gospels. Jesus is radically against some things, and he is not quiet about the things that he is against. But even more than he is against those things, he is for his Father, and he is confirmed in his own identity. And his opposition to religious hypocrisy, to, leaders who don't take their roles seriously, his his opposition to those things flows from his identity in his Father, and it's not some weird thing that he's trying to accomplish in a worldly sense.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:29:47]:
I mean, there's a there's a great kind of line about a social, psychology of, there's nothing that binds people together like a common shared enemy.

Pat Millea [00:29:58]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:29:58]:
Of here's who we all don't like, and so now we find friendship. And the the problem with that, right, is then as soon as the enemy changes, the friendship or the connections completely erode. So you you don't form deep meaningful connections on antithesis. And and again, to to quote the gospels too, Pat, as you're kind of referencing, is James and John come to to Jesus and say, Lord, there are people who are, you know, casting out devils in your name. Should we stop them? And the Lord's like, you know, anyone who's for us can't be against us. And he he's not he's not bothered by that. Whereas they just can't handle it because they're like, they're not following you. And he's like, it it'll work out.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:37]:
Like, they'll they'll they'll be back. They'll be here. Like, they, they understand the power of the name. There's nowhere else they can go. But see, like Jesus isn't threatened by those things. But a fragile ego is very threatened by those things. And I think for us, like if just kind of returning back to like the parent commentary or even if it's like a teacher or whatever, whatever it is that you're saying you're not going to be like is, is it's actually really a fear response is you're so terrified of maybe becoming like something that you don't like that you just devote all of your energy to move against it. And, and I mean, fear is a very powerful force.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:14]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:15]:
I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:15]:
mean, if you just think about it, like, nothing could get you, like, if I don't know, are you guys either afraid of like bugs or rodents or anything like that?

Kenna Millea [00:31:22]:
All all the things.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:22]:
All the things. Okay. So anything creepy crawly. Right? It's like

Pat Millea [00:31:25]:
Mainly rodents. That lady right there.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:26]:
I bet, can I I could make you move faster

Kenna Millea [00:31:29]:
So fast.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:30]:
If I released some sort of a creature in here Yeah. Then if I were just to tell you, I need you to jump as quick as you can.

Pat Millea [00:31:35]:
Yep. Or your favorite food is in the kitchen. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:31:38]:
Watch me watch me sprint.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:40]:
Yep. So I mean, like fear moves us quickly and net by necessity. Right. It's trying to get us away from a pain. And I think that's what we oftentimes will do is we implore fear to get really quick results as I will never be like that. That's terrible. And yet just like with those responses, like, if a little centipede crawled across the floor, like, it ain't gonna be doing much to you, but the response is so disproportionate.

Pat Millea [00:32:05]:
Yeah. Disproportionate. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:32:06]:
Yeah. Well and as I'm hearing you, I'm thinking about how there's this opportunity to to take note of of the antithesis in my life. Right? What are the things that I have maybe silently, interiorly vowed? Like, I will never do. I will never be like that. I'll never I can think of five right

Kenna Millea [00:32:25]:
now in my own head,

Kenna Millea [00:32:26]:
to be perfectly honest. And and there there is if we're willing to go there, there's a moment to go, what was so hurtful? Where has that thing shown up in my life? And how did it wound me? Because for me to have, like you said, Father, that that fear response, like, I will never, there is something significant there. A way that I've been impacted and that I'm afraid that I could inflict that perhaps on others, or that others would, yeah, would would participate in such a thing. And so I think we we miss that that, yeah, that moment for reflection and to really, like, let god in to that place that has really shaped probably a lot of our identity, a lot of our choices. You know? Again, I can think of, yeah, some of those situations myself. So that's one piece. The second thing is to what you're saying of, you know, nothing bonds people like a shared common enemy. First of all, I talk about my clients so often about, like, being in the trenches, you know, with with a spouse, with a sibling, with, like, this idea of, like, comrades in arms.

Kenna Millea [00:33:28]:
Like Yep. When we have whether it's toddlers sleep training or

Pat Millea [00:33:32]:
It's us against the children.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:33:33]:
Oh, that's right. Like, whatever.

Kenna Millea [00:33:36]:
You know, that that that is a bonding moment. But there's a relationship I am not proud of this, but there's a relationship in my life where I I came to realize that this person who I I thought of as, like, very close to me, our relationship was really mostly founded on a shared disdain Uh-huh. For this other entity in our life. And probably in spiritual direction, Father, you, like, illuminated that to me. And and when I brought it to this person, I said, like, I'm nervous about asking us to stop gossiping about this and to stop kind of rallying together around this and calling each other as soon as we each had an encounter, you know, with this this situation. I'm nervous because I'm nervous to find that maybe there's not a whole lot to us. Like, there's not a lot of substance. And it did it took time to rebuild the relationship on solid ground.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:34:28]:
Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:34:28]:
But it was, like, once the veil was lifted, like, I couldn't deal with such an ugly I I don't know, a relationship based on, yeah, that that hate and and such ugliness, but it is risky. And so, you know, for those listening and for myself right now, like, just that consolation of, like, this is hard stuff. What we're talking about is not for cowards. Like, this this really does, I think, require the inspiration and the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit because it's

Pat Millea [00:34:57]:
strikes me sorry.

Kenna Millea [00:34:58]:
Because it's going into uncharted waters. Mhmm. Right. Big risk stuff.

Pat Millea [00:35:02]:
Yeah. I mean, it strikes me that, it it's really challenging to to hold a good sense of nuance and discernment in some of these situations because, I mean, the problem that that I I think rises up in a lot of these situations is that to the extent that I am anti I'm defining my identity as an antithesis to something else. I don't wanna be like my mom. I don't wanna be pro choice. I don't wanna be liberal conservative whatever. I don't wanna be that other thing. That's the extent to which my identity is formed by that thing and not by God. So even even as an antithesis

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:42]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:35:43]:
That thing is getting the voice. That thing is having control in my life that it hasn't earned, it doesn't deserve. And any effort of mine to not be like my dad, which is that's hypothetical. I love you, dad. I'm glad that I am like you in many ways. My effort to not be like my dad means that I have now handed over control of a certain part of my life to my dad. Because whether I'm trying to be like him or not, that's a voice that that only God gets to have in my life, who who I am and what I was made for. And what's much harder is acknowledging, like you were saying, Kenna and Father, the ways that I've been hurt by this situation.

Pat Millea [00:36:22]:
And even in kind of impersonal situations. Right? People that with whom I disagree vehemently about things that matter a lot. Right? Great friends of mine who I could not disagree with more about abortion or gender ideology or things like that. I I'm still confident that they're wonderful people. And and the more that I can dig into why you believe this way so somebody who's maybe radically in favor of abortion laws or something like that. It's kind of an extreme example. Almost all of the people I know are doing it because they want what is best for women, and they're convinced this is what is best for women. I couldn't disagree more, but their desire for what is best for women is a really good desire.

Pat Millea [00:37:07]:
So one of the ways that I can be antithetical to the issue, to the position, to go back to our episode with Julia Sadusky, and still be in a posture of openness to the person and to be a little more discerning about how I choose to to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit directing me in my life.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:26]:
That's a good point, Pat. And, I'm a little bit of a tangent if that's okay from that, unless you had something you wanted to comment on. Always. But always. So, one of one of the ministries that I was involved with, I got involved a while back was Unbound Ministry with Neal Lozano. And, essentially, what it is is it's kind of like a a mini deliverance ministry. And one of the substantial parts of those is to try to find the areas where we need to, renounce the lies, that we've kind of believed. And what was so interesting as I walked through those kind of things with people, oftentimes, they were lies of I will never whatever the thing might be.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:38:06]:
I'll never become like this or I'll never do this behavior. And it had stunted the person to the point where they were actually bound up. And one of the things, Pat, that I just appreciated kind of in the stories you were telling us, what kinda triggered the memory of that, was to be able to have that nuance in ability to kind of be both and. Right? If to say and this is actually it's a psychological concept. You know someone's psychological maturity and that they can feel more than one emotion at once. Because it it it there is what will happen is, like, I can only be sad. I can only be I can only be angry. I can only be happy.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:38:39]:
I can only be this.

Pat Millea [00:38:40]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:38:40]:
I can only be friends with this person, or I can only be only be enemies that person. Yeah. I can only love my father, or I can either never wanna be like my father. And it's like, that's not maturity. Alright? So so how you mark maturity and same thing with the same bound thing is, like, to say, like, I will never be humiliated again. Okay. Well, that's probably a good idea, actually. Like, you don't wanna be humiliated.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:02]:
Like, let's try not to be humiliated. Let's try to be prudent in what we do. But then to say that I'm gonna make this vow that my entire life is aimed at compensating never to put myself in a situation where I can be humiliated. Now I'm bound, and I'm living in antithesis. So it is this interesting thing where, again, it it's not like this extreme reaction to things, but it's being able to say, oh, I see that this is present. And and what it was what was the word that you used from, the the last podcast that you not proportionate, but

Kenna Millea [00:39:33]:
not posture and position.

Pat Millea [00:39:35]:
Oh, yeah. Position versus posture.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:37]:
Can you can you just what is that briefly?

Pat Millea [00:39:38]:
Yeah. So Doctor Julia Sadusky, the episode we we did on her about gender identity and gender dysphoria, she brings this distinction out between position and posture. And the the mistake that many Christians, many people make that we conflate those two things. That because I have a position that is opposed to you or choices that you have made, because I disagree with you about the the information of this topic. I necessarily have to have a posture that is oppositional against you. And and that's a that's a mistake that we all make. Right? No one is immune to that kind of a process because we care so much about the position and because most often the position is just true. I mean this is truth coming from the Lord from the Church these are revealed truths.

Pat Millea [00:40:24]:
What she proposes is a much healthier way of living like you're talking about Father of being able to hold my position, to to not give up what is revealed truth, what I know to be true through the ministry of the church, but to have an a posture that is able to connect with the person. So that if I've got a loved one who, you know, is kind of moving down the road of, of a transgender lifestyle in in her example, or I've got friends who their child is they're kind of moving them down the stages of of transgender life, that I can hold my position and still have a posture of love and empathy and openness. Tell me what it's like to be you. What's hard about this? How can I how can I love you well and still not not compromising my my beliefs, my position?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:41:14]:
You know, and and I think that it's interesting, like, as you're sharing that example, thanks for kinda giving me the expose. I I am a faithful listener to the podcast. I just couldn't I couldn't recall, that exact point.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:41:25]:
I'm sorry.

Kenna Millea [00:41:27]:
Episode 66.

Pat Millea [00:41:28]:
You were busy with stats that day.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:41:29]:
It's okay. That's fine.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:41:31]:
But I I just think the imagery of, like, energy comes to my mind. Right? It's like, where are we putting our energy into? And if we only have so much energy, if all my energy is in not being something or resisting something or being in opposition to something, I actually don't even have any energy to engage in a way that's positive growth directed, even fruitful. Mhmm. And I mean, like, this is a choice that we really have to make. And I think this is sometimes why, when we are like, why is life so hard or why is life so exhausting? It's like, well, you're putting all of your energy not to be something. Mhmm. So you have no energy to actually move towards something. And so that I mean, of course, it's gonna feel really unfulfilling and burdensome.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:14]:
And why are these, you know, interactions that I have always so tense? Well, all of your energy is being put in not engaging with that thing. So you don't wanna be seen associated with it. And, again, we kinda see the wisdom of Christ. Like, what was his reputation? A friend of tax collectors and sinners. Yeah. Like, his energy was not put in, like, hey. Look. I like everything good.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:34]:
Like, look at me. I'm perfect in every way. He was perfect in every way.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:39]:
Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:39]:
And you could interact with these people. You didn't need to put all that energy into it. Mhmm. So I I think that that that does come to the surface as you you got you're sharing those examples, Pat, is like, I'm just hearing that energy question, and I'm it doesn't seem like it's worth living one's entire life devoted towards antithesis.

Pat Millea [00:42:57]:
One thing that that I've had to do pretty intentionally, and I know, kinda, you and I have done some of this as well, is just start to, like, identify the the antithetical voices that I allow into my life and just start to eliminate them. Mhmm. Like, there is so much goodness and truth out there. I do not need to be partaking of angry, resentful, bitter, name calling type stuff. We we just had lunch right before we recorded, listener, and I was telling you guys that at the at the gym that I go to, hilariously, I don't know if they do this on purpose or not, on two TV screens right next to each other at the gym, they always have Fox News on one and MSNBC on the other. And if you watch either or both of those channels, good for you. That's great. Let's be honest.

Pat Millea [00:43:44]:
You don't watch both. But if you watch either of those channels, that's fine. For me, I had to identify with situations like that. Each of those to me seem like an antithesis to something. Yeah. And I I don't see those as healthy objective forms of information and media, you know. In, in my life, I stopped using Twitter years ago. Because of all the social media platforms, they're all problematic in their own right.

Pat Millea [00:44:11]:
Twitter is just a cesspool of human

Kenna Millea [00:44:14]:
Does it even exist?

Pat Millea [00:44:14]:
Indiscretion

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:15]:
It's X now.

Pat Millea [00:44:16]:
Oh X now. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:44:17]:
But does Twitter exist? It's TikTok that got banned?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:19]:
No. It got banned and they came back.

Pat Millea [00:44:21]:
TikTok was banned for about seven minutes, and now it's not. Yeah. It's a whole thing. I don't really understand.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:25]:
Guess who's back. Guess who's back. Guess who's back.

Pat Millea [00:44:28]:
But I had to I had to, like, cut Twitter out of my life because it was just so angry. And, you know, when you only get whatever it is now, 200 characters, you you don't get room for nuance. Right? So it's a whole platform that is set up to be antithetical because it's just hot take after hot take after hot take. It's just and and the loudest voice gets the likes. You know what I mean? Like, being the most brash, the most absurd, the most extreme is how you build an audience. Even in the Instagram account that we have for this podcast, @thiswholelifepodcast, which you should really follow. You Or not. You and I Kenna have had to go through at various times.

Pat Millea [00:45:05]:
And sometimes we talk to each other, sometimes we don't. Like, there are days that you'll come home, be like, oh, FYI, I unfollowed that person because I just can't anymore. And and sometimes these are Catholic folks Right. Who, you know, again, I don't know them personally. I'm sure they're wonderful people, but the persona on social media is just so vitriolic and condescending and spiteful of people that we disagree with. And, like, the content, I could not agree with you more on. Right. I agree that that thing is a problem.

Pat Millea [00:45:37]:
But I I refuse to believe that name calling and ad hominem attacks, I refuse to believe that that kind of antithetical lifestyle is the genuine call of the disciple.

Kenna Millea [00:45:47]:
Yeah. Well, certainly wasn't making me more of a disciple, which is why I unfollowed. It's not necessarily because they need to change their ways. They can, I guess, do what they need to do? Sure. But it was because the question for me became, what is helping me form my identity? And this is not helpful.

Pat Millea [00:46:02]:
That's a perfect kind of, like, even nuance within that. It's and that's some punishment of them or, like

Kenna Millea [00:46:07]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:46:07]:
Hey, you be better. It's more, like, no. This if I'm gonna form my identity on Christ, what are the voices that are gonna help me form that identity?

Kenna Millea [00:46:16]:
Yeah. And and maybe some people that that kind of more brash, like you said, and really kind of polarizing position will catch their attention. Someone's, you know, attention in a way that, like, begins initiates a conversion or an awareness of of something that they've never understood before. That was not happening for me, and I was finding myself being bitter and resentful. So so yeah. I I I'm loving where this conversation is going of really, giving space for the things that have have wounded us and that we've had that, you know, recoiling response to to, like, give that an opportunity to tell us about ourselves, to tell us about the things that we value, the things that we want, the things we want to be, the things we hear god asking us to be in this life. And also, this awareness of, like, we all get to contribute to the kind of community, that we're developing, especially if we're doing it in the name of Jesus. There is a sense of responsibility and accountability to, like, how are we doing that? Because it's not just a matter of gathering folks in the name of Christ.

Kenna Millea [00:47:21]:
Like, the the quality of of what we are doing and what we are rallying around matters. And and I I think to your point, Pat, about just how much our our world has become, yeah, driven a lot by media and social media. I don't know that many of us take that. Okay. I'll speak for myself. I don't always take the time to take a step back and ask these questions. I quickly become consumed and I quickly am along for the ride And I don't take the time to reflect and go, is this where I really want my energy to be going, to your point, Father, where I wanna be spending my time and how I wanna be building up relationship?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:00]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:48:01]:
I mean, I I I just, I mean, one of the the real challenges I think that people face on a regular basis when we are engaged in social media and communication with I mean, really, a a larger audience than the typical human would have been, like, with the Internet, is we we do tend to form relationships around who we are and who we are not. And usually, it's who we are not that defines that group versus I mean, and I would really challenge, the listener just to look at their life and to say, are there friendships and relationships that I have that are just based on the positive rather than us define as, like, oh, we're not gonna be involved with this and that and this. And I I I just I I I look at my own life, and I know that there's certain relationships that I have and friendships that I'm like, I I'm literally bonded together with them because of who I don't wanna be. Mhmm. Which then makes me question, like, how much depth and richness do I actually have in those relationships? Like, I love the analogy that you're not not the analogy, but the example you used kinda of your friend having to, like, redefine your friendship. Whereas, like, if I call to mind the friendships that were forged on a common pursuit of something good of, like, what we wanted to become, they're oftentimes the ones that stand the test of time. I just I had my fortieth birthday. I'm really, really old right now.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:25]:
And I don't know.

Kenna Millea [00:49:26]:
As old as us.

Pat Millea [00:49:27]:
Us. Slow down, youngin'. You got a ways to go.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:29]:
Ancient of days.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:32]:
One of my friends sent me a birthday card and had Jesus on the front. And it just he is holding, like, he is calling a cake that had 40 on it. And it all it said is I'll see you soon.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:44]:
I laughed so hard.

Kenna Millea [00:49:45]:
That was like a greeting card that they bought in the store?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:46]:
It was so good. I was like, oh, man.

Kenna Millea [00:49:49]:
That's brutal. I need to buy those in bulk.

Pat Millea [00:49:50]:
Oh, that's really good.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:55]:
But if I got together with three of my friends for my fortieth birthday from, seminary, and all three of us hadn't been together since 2007. And it was amazing how we all just connected immediately. And, like, over those twenty it was probably twenty years that we hadn't seen each other. We had all changed substantially. We all had different opinions and preferences on things. But what was forged is we were all pursuing Christ. So as we came together, the common pursuit of a good rather than an antithesis of what we didn't wanna become was so strong that it was literally like we had just been together the week before. And this is what I think is the the this is the flaw in living in antithesis is it's very fragile, shallow, and blindsided, but it feels falsely powerful.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:44]:
Mhmm. Whereas when we move towards something, it's meaningful, it's lasting, it's very challenging.

Pat Millea [00:50:51]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:50:52]:
Because, like, I mean, you you just you have a very, very like, when Christ says, come follow me, he doesn't say, like, well, you can't do this, this, this, this, and this. He just is a simple invite of, like, hey, why don't why don't you come to something else? And I'll show you something else. You know? Master, where are you staying? We'll come and see. You know? Just very, very generic offering. And as I look at my life and I and maybe even to you too with parenting, right, is if you maybe had your first child and you met another couple and they had their first child, and it wasn't like like, here's what we're not gonna do as parents. Yeah. But it was just like, okay. We got this creature.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:26]:
We're freaked out about everything we do. Are you freaked out about everything you do? Okay. Great. Like, this is really hard. Yeah. And those are probably relationships that you could tap into in a second. Is that true or am I delusional?

Pat Millea [00:51:36]:
Oh 100%. Yeah. And I love that come follow me image too because Jesus makes the call to Peter and Andrew, James and John, that initial call. Come follow me. Plain and simple.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:46]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:51:47]:
No strings attached. No, you know, come follow me if you're willing to do x y z. Just a plain simple come follow me. And then what do they do? They leave behind their nets.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:51:57]:
Mhmm.

Pat Millea [00:51:57]:
And there are things that they distance themselves from and they move away from.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:01]:
But it's But they're like, I'm never gonna be a fisherman. Correct.

Pat Millea [00:52:03]:
But it's not

Pat Millea [00:52:04]:
not in a vacuum. Just saying, like, I'm not gonna be a fisherman like my dad. Just throwing the nets in the water and storming off into the desert. No. Because, like, that's an aimless life. And it's it's hilarious in that context, but people live like that sometimes. Right?

Kenna Millea [00:52:20]:
Like We can live like that sometimes.

Pat Millea [00:52:21]:
We can yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Not people out there. Like, I can live like that sometimes. So there's there's that that beautiful image of, like, hearing the voice of Christ, moving toward him, and then making discerning intentional decisions about what I'm gonna move away from as a response to his love. Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:52:38]:
Well and as you said that of of the the natural consequence of following Jesus was that they left their nets behind. Yeah. I don't know, you know, at what point they were like, so I guess we'll leave the nets. But, like

Pat Millea [00:52:49]:
Yeah. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:52:49]:
That that it's just in in pursuing the Lord and allowing him to to gift us with our identity, that the things that we aren't gonna be about are gonna naturally fall by the wayside. Those things are not gonna have room. We're not gonna have room in our lives for those things or the desire to give it our energy. So that just is a it's a consequence that flows. And we don't have to be, yeah, I I guess, we don't have to give an inordinate amount of energy toward that.

Pat Millea [00:53:17]:
Yeah. It's a race to the podium. Yes. Which one of you has a great challenge by choice?

Kenna Millea [00:53:23]:
Why are you discounting yourself from this race?

Pat Millea [00:53:25]:
Because I think you two are smarter than me. So I wanna wanna offer it up to you too first. If you have nothing, I'm happy to step into the fray.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:32]:
So okay. So just I wanna say, like, one thing I've always admired of you. You are, like, the keeper of collection of random knowledge.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:38]:
So,

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:39]:
like, even at around, like, lunch, you're talking about, like, Iceland is island in French and, you know, trying to figure out how this all connects and then, like, you'll store that. And it'll be like some, like, you know, five years down the road and you're like, yeah. I remember seeing that poster. I'm like, that does not exist in my mental frame. It's just kinda

Pat Millea [00:53:57]:
like we're talking politics. I'm googling etymology of Iceland.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:54:01]:
So, I mean, like, there's a different type of intelligence we're all gambling with here. I I do I do have one, and it I think it's just it's because it's the it goes out the energy piece. Right? Is I mean, to to ask ourselves first, what what is where are we spending our energy in either pushing towards or pushing against? And then just to ask ourselves the question, like, can I articulate what it is? Because we all we all have so much energy. Can I articulate what I'm moving towards? Is it, like, I don't wanna be like something, or is it, like, I really want this as a goal? And then just to have that felt experience of, like, is this actually filling me with life? Is this taking life away? And do I want to adjust it? Kind of a secondary piece really is just to even ask yourself, like, have I made promises to myself that I will never be like something or someone? Mhmm. And if that's the case, I would really encourage you just to really repent of that. And in a very simple way, just to say something like in the name of Jesus, I renounce the lie or I renounce the false vow that I will never be like whatever it might be. And instead, Lord, I commit to becoming who you have called me to be. And hopefully, if you take that time in prayer to do that, you'll experience this just wave of refreshment because identity is going to be poured back inside of you.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:55:20]:
So kind of a twofold challenge by choice.

Pat Millea [00:55:22]:
I love that. And that's why I ask him to do it for you because you would have been just as good at it, my dear.

Kenna Millea [00:55:30]:
Oh my goodness. Well, Father, would you mind praying us to a close today?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:55:34]:
I would love to. So in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, amen? Heavenly Father, from the very beginning, you spoke and it came to be. It is you who always give direction and life. It is only since the fall that things have been taken away from you in privation. We ask of you, please, to speak boldly into our lives, to reacquaint us with the direction and the identity that you are forming us into. That we may not live in antithesis, but rather in great hope and promise of what is to come. We ask all of these things through Christ our Lord. Amen.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:56:12]:
Amen.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:56:12]:
In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, amen.

Pat Millea [00:56:15]:
Amen. Father Nathan, thank you for being with us. Always a pleasure. Thank you for being a thesis.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:56:22]:
Oh, my gosh.

Pat Millea [00:56:23]:
I appreciate that. The thesis that I have married. Thank you for your, your wisdom and your insight, my love. Appreciate it. Thank you dear listener for following along with us for being a part of this conversation. I would love to hear from you about how this shows up in your life, where you struggle with this, where you found success with this. You can send us a message through the link at the bottom of the show notes here. You can send us a message as well on our website, thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Pat Millea [00:56:49]:
And you can connect with us on social media, where we promise to never be too provocative or spiteful, on Instagram or Facebook @thiswholelifepodcast. And you can still become a supporter of This Whole Life by visiting ko-fi.com/thiswholelife. On behalf of my two grand thesis folks right here, it's a joy to be with you. God bless you, friends.

Kenna Millea [00:57:13]:
God bless you.

Pat Millea [00:57:19]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center for Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Kenna Millea [00:57:46]:
Hey. What's up?