Ep75 Youth Sports: Inspiring or Insane? w/ Matt Birk

"Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win."
~ 1 Corinthians 9:24

Are youth sports helping or hurting our kids?
Can sports be a healthy way of honoring God?
How can my children and I stay grounded in the midst of their sports?

In Episode 75 of This Whole Life, hosts Pat and Kenna sit down with Super Bowl champion Matt Birk for a lively, honest, and heartfelt conversation about the realities of youth sports today. From hilarious football stories to hard-fought lessons on resilience and parenting, Matt shares his journey as both an elite athlete and a dad navigating the pressures of today’s competitive youth sports culture. Together, they explore the joys and challenges of childhood athletics, the growing professionalization of youth sports, and the importance of keeping play fun and rooted in faith. Whether you’re a parent on the sidelines, a coach, or just a fan of sports and good conversations, this episode is full of wisdom, practical advice, and perspective on how sports can help shape not just athletes, but healthy, resilient human beings—mind, body, and soul.

Matt Birk is a CEO, a fifteen year NFL veteran, and a Super Bowl champion. He played college football at Harvard and graduated with a degree in economics before going on to be drafted by the Minnesota Vikings in 1998. He played for the Vikings for eleven years and then for the Baltimore Ravens for four years, where he won Super Bowl XLVII. Matt was named the NFL's Walter Payton Man of the Year in 2011 for his accomplishments on and off the field. Since retiring from the NFL in 2013, Matt has been a vocal pro life advocate, he has cofounded a Catholic high school, and authored a book called All Pro Wisdom. He and his wife have eight children.

Episode 75 Show Notes

Find out more about Matt Birk's work and speaking

Chapters:

0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
11:45: True stories from an NFL veteran
18:57: The mental challenge of sports
28:22: Faith, sports psychology, and resilience
36:30: The current state of youth sports
45:06: The harms of professionalization and specialization
53:18: Best practices for sports parents
1:05:04: Challenge By Choice

Reflection Questions:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. What have your experiences with sports been?
3. What are the benefits of youth sports? What are the dangers?
4. Why is it so tempting for parents to attach their identity to kids' sports?

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 11:45 Stories from an NFL veteran
• 18:57 The mental challenge of sports
• 28:22 Faith, sports psychology, and resilience
• 36:30 The current state of youth sports
• 45:06 The harms of professionalization and specialization
• 53:18 Best practices for sports parents
• 1:05:04 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Matt Birk [00:00:00]:
It's just so precious, like, to have these moments of to be able to play and be on a team and compete, and especially when you can do it for your school. Like, you wear a uniform with your school's name on it. You know? You're representing something bigger than yourself. The the good that sports can be. We're missing it in a lot of places because we're worried about, worried about getting a college scholarship. Yeah. And that's that's a shame.

Pat Millea [00:00:32]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast along with my bride, Kenna, a licensed marriage and family therapist. This is the stuff she and I talk about all the time, doing dishes, in the car, on a date. We're excited to bring you this podcast for educational purposes. It's not therapy or a substitute for mental health care. So come on in. Have a seat at our dining room table and join the conversation with us. We are so glad you're here.

Pat Millea [00:01:24]:
Welcome back to This Whole Life friends. It's a blessing to be with you today. It's a blessing to be in this room with these people and boy, if you're listening now, you you wish you were here.

Kenna Millea [00:01:35]:
It's gonna be a great hour.

Pat Millea [00:01:37]:
You get to hear it which is the next best thing but But man, if you were only here, you'd be better off, which is one of the reasons that we're gonna very soon expand our video capabilities

Kenna Millea [00:01:46]:
Yes.

Pat Millea [00:01:46]:
So that

Pat Millea [00:01:46]:
you can see what's going on here.

Kenna Millea [00:01:47]:
Yes.

Pat Millea [00:01:48]:
How are you, my love?

Kenna Millea [00:01:49]:
I am good. The sun is shining through this window, and we have an awesome guest here today in Matt Birk. So life is good.

Pat Millea [00:01:55]:
Big day. That's right. Big day. Before we get rolling, just a few, kind of reminders and encouragements. First of all, if you have not been in the habit of rating and reviewing this whole life, very much encourage you to do that on whatever podcast player you choose to listen on. It helps us. It helps, the podcast get better exposure. So take the eight seconds if you would and hit that old five star button.

Pat Millea [00:02:18]:
And if you think it's a one star podcast, I encourage you to not rate it. That would be really wonderful.

Kenna Millea [00:02:24]:
But we encourage honesty here.

Pat Millea [00:02:25]:
That's correct. We encourage honesty, but we also

Kenna Millea [00:02:27]:
Five star honesty.

Pat Millea [00:02:28]:
Yes. That's right. Yes. Second of all, we have now moved past Easter 2025, and we now are working toward building up a community of monthly supporters for This Whole Life. So you can click the link in the episode description or go to kofi.com/thiswholelife to support all the good work that we do, and thank you in advance. We've got a great guest with us, friends. We have Matt Birk with us. Matt, welcome aboard, brother.

Matt Birk [00:02:54]:
Thank you.

Matt Birk [00:02:55]:
So good to be here with you guys. Glad to be here. I was like fans of your guys before you became podcasting stars. This is this is great.

Pat Millea [00:03:02]:
Yeah, man. Well, great. But thanks for being here in in studio with us. Matt Birk, if for those who don't know, is he is a CEO. He's a fifteen year NFL veteran. He's a Super Bowl champion. He played football at Harvard and graduated with a degree in economics and then went on to be drafted by the Minnesota Vikings in 1998. He played for the Vikings here in Minnesota for eleven years and then for the Baltimore Ravens for four years where he won a Super Bowl in 2013.

Pat Millea [00:03:29]:
He was named the 2011 Walter Payton NFL man of the year for his accomplishments on and especially off the field. And then since retiring on top in 2013, he's been a vocal pro life advocate. He's cofounded a Catholic high school and authored a book called All Pro Wisdom. He's been married to Adrianna for twenty three years, and they have eight kids. Matt, welcome aboard.

Matt Birk [00:03:50]:
That's mostly accurate. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:03:52]:
Quite a resume.

Pat Millea [00:03:53]:
You can coast from here, man.

Matt Birk [00:03:55]:
I don't feel like I'm coasting. I'll tell you that. I'll tell you that's not how it feels.

Pat Millea [00:03:59]:
It hasn't slowed down since the playing days.

Matt Birk [00:04:01]:
Not so much.

Pat Millea [00:04:02]:
Yeah. I bet. I bet. Oh my gosh. Well, yeah. Thanks so much for being here, Matt. We always like to start off our episodes with a high and a hard checking in about what's been going on lately. So would you mind kicking us off as our guest?

Matt Birk [00:04:14]:
I'd love to. High, this week, you know, Easter was kind of a disaster. Okay. You know, we had sick kids and all change of plans last minute. It it family's mad. It was it wasn't great. You know? So Monday night, my wife just kinda last second, said we get we gotta go out. You know? We try to do date night once a week, and we went to a really terrible restaurant on a Monday night, which doesn't sound like a great recipe for a great date night, but it is because Monday night's not busy at restaurants anyways.

Matt Birk [00:04:44]:
Yeah. At bad restaurants, there's nobody there. We walked in. She said, did you reserve the whole place for us? And we sat in restaurant by ourselves, and we got an hour to just, just talk and kinda, you know, take a breath and and relax and and and put the put the Easter all the Easter stuff behind us. So that was great. That was the that was the high. And, the hard is we have a we have a daughter who's going through a tough time right now, and it should be a joyous exciting time for her, but she's very she's very stressed. And, and, you know, as a parent, you you it's always hard to see your kids struggle.

Matt Birk [00:05:21]:
And I tell her, trust me, everything's gonna be okay, but she doesn't believe me because I'm her dad. And, so it's just hard to watch her to watch her go through that.

Pat Millea [00:05:31]:
Yeah. That's tough. That's tough. Yeah. Man, prayers for her and

Matt Birk [00:05:34]:
Thank you.

Pat Millea [00:05:35]:
Yeah. Teenagers, young adults, man, we're we're knocking on that door as parents. And, it's been so easy for us so far, which means I know that the shoe is about to drop. So bracing for that day, but, man oh, man. Yeah. Did you tell Adrianna that you did rent out the whole restaurant, by the way, just

Pat Millea [00:05:53]:
to make it romantic? Yeah. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:05:55]:
Yes. I did.

Matt Birk [00:05:56]:
I said, you know me. You know I am a romantic. Yeah right.

Pat Millea [00:05:59]:
What a gesture. That's great. Kenna, what about you?

Kenna Millea [00:06:03]:
Yeah. I think yeah. This is a I'm gonna say a season in life, but maybe this is just life when you have children and children who are in activities and you work and all that. But I I recognize that this week, I've been in that utilitarian mode of, like, I look at my children as, like, how useful can you be in getting this task done versus, like, you are a person here for me to love and just, like, enjoy. And so the hard is recognizing that I'm in that place and, like, pumping the brakes and, like, challenging myself to shift. And also the to do list just keeps growing. And and, like, thanks be to God, there's a lot of really exciting stuff going on in our work life and our family life, but it, yeah. I'm just I'm full to the gills with the stuff, and it makes me look at people around me not as people, but as, like, mechanisms and and cogs in a wheel.

Kenna Millea [00:06:56]:
And that is not good. That is not what we're made for. So I gotta work on that. So that's the hard. The high is Matt, how old is your youngest child?

Matt Birk [00:07:05]:
Eight.

Kenna Millea [00:07:05]:
Okay. Okay. So we're a little behind you. Our youngest, we have twins that are just turned six this week and then one that just turned five last week as well. And, they're learning how to read. And, like, to there's a lot of, like, firsts that you celebrate as a parent. You know, first time they walk, first time they say their words, or do things independently. And these being our youngest children to date, to see them read for the first time and, like, to look over and see now, particularly the six year olds, just, you know, enraptured with a pile of books.

Kenna Millea [00:07:41]:
It's like, oh my gosh. Like, it it it touches on your own magic of this whole world that's, like, been unlocked for you. So that has been a definite high and just encouraging that, and they wanna spell everything. Like, they want

Pat Millea [00:07:55]:
Oh my gosh.

Kenna Millea [00:07:56]:
They just all day long sit at the island, like, mommy, spell pickle. Mommy, spell garden. Mommy, spell like, they're just so into it and it's really it's really pure and it's it's beautiful. So yeah. How about you love? Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:08:12]:
Thank you for that. I agree with both of those things. Those were not my high and hard, but I'm really glad to hear, that we have kind of similar perspectives. My hard lately, just, today was a really challenging before school routine. And, Matt, you know. I mean, getting seven kids out the door on time is a hilarious method in futility. No. That's not the word.

Pat Millea [00:08:39]:
It's a hilarious exercise in futility. That's the word. And just like, I do not love mornings anyway. I'm not a morning guy. I am at my absolute worst when the most is required of me. So this morning just like shouting at kids, I like turn around and both the boys, God bless them, are two of the boys. They're boys. This is like this is the way the the male brain works.

Pat Millea [00:09:02]:
They're just playing a game with a ball in the living room and we are all screaming at each other.

Kenna Millea [00:09:06]:
Like Rome is burning.

Pat Millea [00:09:07]:
Correct. Right. And I turned around and was just like, are you kidding me? Just it so I I I I get sarcastic and I get shouty and it's not good for anybody. So it was a hard morning and we're gonna we're gonna reconcile this evening. It's gonna get better. And I I am at my best at like 8:00 at night. So, we're gonna be in good shape tonight. My high is, we we sacrifice a lot to try to keep our kids as far away from technology as possible to a reasonable degree.

Pat Millea [00:09:38]:
Like, we'll watch family movies. They watch Bluey once in a while. That's all well and good, but none of them have phones. They don't have iPads, whatever, stuff like that. And it's a genuine sacrifice. Like, it's hard to always try to find productive functional ways for kids to be entertained and busy, whatever. But the payoff is that our kids love being outside, almost every one of them. And especially now that it's it's warmer outside and they're able to like, we have to fight to get them inside, which is That's awesome.

Pat Millea [00:10:06]:
Such a gift. Yeah. It's great. It it makes all the arguments and all the kind of stress about technology worth it when they see the benefit and they just love playing sports and riding bikes and doing all that stuff. So it's pretty great.

Kenna Millea [00:10:19]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:10:19]:
Pretty great. Yeah. Well, speaking of playing outside, speaking of sports, we're gonna talk sports, Matthew. Sports. Sports. Sports. Sports. Sports.

Pat Millea [00:10:26]:
Yep. Kenna is here for moral support.

Kenna Millea [00:10:29]:
No. I have my questions.

Pat Millea [00:10:31]:
No. Kenna was actually

Kenna Millea [00:10:32]:
Yeah. Pat was like, I think I'll lead this interview. And I was like, excuse me. I was like, I have some things I would like to talk about. So ladies. Don't you tune out. Do not.

Pat Millea [00:10:42]:
Do not in the least. That's right. Alright. So here's the deal. Where I wanna start before we get into some of the much more important stuff about the the mental, spiritual side of sports, especially parents and navigating youth sports and that whole culture nowadays. I just wanna geek out about football for a second to get into that world. Okay? So here are some various questions. You tell me your thoughts and we'll go from there.

Pat Millea [00:11:04]:
Most fun individual game that you ever played in?

Matt Birk [00:11:09]:
It was the playoffs as with the Vikings, and it was 2000 and hold on. It'd have been January of 2006. I had a tough year. I had dealing with all these hernias. I kept herniating myself. Mhmm.

Matt Birk [00:11:25]:
I don't know if that's even a thing.

Pat Millea [00:11:27]:
Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:11:27]:
Surgery, it was hurting. It was a long tough year. We we snuck into the playoffs at eight and eight, and first round of playoffs, we gotta go to Green Bay. Mhmm. That year, we'd lost twice to Green Bay. Both games, 34-31 on the last second field goal.

Pat Millea [00:11:41]:
Come on.

Matt Birk [00:11:42]:
And so, yeah, we're this eight and eight team. We're not even supposed to be in the playoffs. And, we went up there, and we we whooped them. It was great. It was one of those people where Favre just decided to throw the ball to us a bunch of times. Beautiful. And, there's eight minutes left in the game. We got the ball.

Matt Birk [00:11:58]:
We were up a bunch. And that's the time when everybody knows you're just gonna try to run the football and run the clock out. Yeah. Normally, what happens is you run three plays. You get, like, one yard Yep. And you punt because the there's, like, three more guys than you can block on defense. Yeah. Well, they could not stop us.

Matt Birk [00:12:15]:
And I was telling their middle linebacker, Nick Barnett, not one of my finer moments. I was saying, Nick, we are running the ball right here, and you can't stop it. I might have might have been a little more colorful than that.

Pat Millea [00:12:25]:
Sure. Paraphrasing.

Matt Birk [00:12:27]:
Yeah. Yeah. Paraphrasing.

Kenna Millea [00:12:29]:
Thanks for keeping it family friendly.

Matt Birk [00:12:30]:
And it was eight minutes, and we came off the field. They finally stopped us with about thirty seconds left in the game. And, nobody except the offensive linemen and our coach knew how, like, unbelievably impressive that was.

Pat Millea [00:12:43]:
Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:12:44]:
And I don't, I'm not saying anybody else should be impressed because I get it that you don't care.

Pat Millea [00:12:47]:
Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:12:47]:
But it was unbelievable. And we were, that year, our thing was we would call it belly bumping. You know, we would instead of high fiving, we would belly bump each other o linemen, because we had big bellies. And, we were belly bumping our o line coach. It was just kind of a it was it was one of those great moments in a personally and and team wise, you know, a tough year. It didn't go how we thought it was gonna go. Yeah. And, the next week, we went to Philadelphia and got waxed, and we were done.

Matt Birk [00:13:14]:
But that was that was that was that was a great game, and that was a great place to do it in Lambeau Field.

Pat Millea [00:13:20]:
Yeah. That's such a great example of, like, for a Super Bowl winner, the one of the more fun games that comes to mind is just a moment like that. Yeah. No. I A game killing drive at the end of the fourth quarter in the winter at Lambeau. Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:13:32]:
It's a divisional playoff game, which nobody cares about.

Pat Millea [00:13:34]:
Yeah. Right. Right. Right.

Pat Millea [00:13:35]:
Yeah. I was yeah.

Pat Millea [00:13:36]:
That's so good. Oh my gosh. Number two, can you can you bring to mind one of the best blocks that you ever laid?

Matt Birk [00:13:43]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, there was three or four of them. Over fifteen years. Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:13:50]:
I'd like three. There was one, it was my first year playing, and we're playing the Cardinals at home in the old Metrodome. And there was a screen pass, and, I ran out there and, you know, when a when you're three hundred fifteen pounds and you're in space, it's not real comfortable. You know? You're kinda like you're like the fish out of water. Yeah. And I'm coming up on this little DB, and you're like, well, why don't you just run him over? Well, because he's just gonna, like, sidestep me, you know, like, cartoons where the bullfighter just. So I I went to you just kinda we say shoot shoot your shot. Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:14:23]:
I just shot my shot and I went to cut him, through his legs. Yeah. And I don't know if he was asleep or he had something in his eye, but, I caught him just right. And it was kinda one of those where he, like, flipped over backwards. Oh, man. And we scored a touchdown, and I was like and this was, you know, this was twenty five years ago. Okay? So it's not like football is a big deal, but there's no social media. There's no YouTube.

Matt Birk [00:14:45]:
I was like, well, that that felt like a pretty good block. Yeah. And we went out after the game, and it was, like, made it was one of the highlight plays on, you know, ESPN. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:14:55]:
Yeah. Right.

Matt Birk [00:14:56]:
Where the only highlights you had was, like, the three minutes that ESPN would show. They were like, that's the only place you Yep. You could get your highlights in there. And they actually, like, you know, highlighted me. And and as a young player, I was like, oh my gosh.

Kenna Millea [00:15:07]:
Yeah. You said first year.

Matt Birk [00:15:09]:
My first yeah. My first year starting. So it was my third year in the NFL. Wow. And I was like, oh my gosh. Everybody's gonna know who I am now. I've made it. Of course, nobody really.

Matt Birk [00:15:17]:
Again, nobody cares about linemen. That's fine. But that one was, that one was that was good. I I was I remember it. It was twenty five years ago.

Kenna Millea [00:15:23]:
So Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:15:23]:
That's so great. You you were ahead of your time because now, as we speak on ESPN, there's a show called Get Up. And Jeff Saturday, former center for the Colts, has a whole segment on Get Up about linemen laying just sick pancake blocks.

Matt Birk [00:15:38]:
You know, I I and I know Jeff well. I mean, we played this exact same era. Where centers have a special bond because there's only so many guys in this world that know what it's like to have another guy put his hands underneath you every day.

Pat Millea [00:15:52]:
With your permission even.

Matt Birk [00:15:54]:
Yeah. Yeah. Willingly. So, I yeah. I I text Jeff once in a while, and I'm I'm jealous. You know? He took this center thing, and he just he took it to another level. That that could have been me.

Pat Millea [00:16:02]:
It's amazing. Oh my gosh. That's the best. Final just goofy question. Most intimidating defender that you ever had to even go up against?

Matt Birk [00:16:12]:
That's easy. That's John Randle. Oh. And I was his teammate for four years.

Pat Millea [00:16:17]:
I was gonna say, at practice. Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:16:18]:
Yeah. So it's like, here I am, you know, rookie from Harvard, which people are like,

Matt Birk [00:16:23]:
Harvard has a football team?

Matt Birk [00:16:25]:
Like, yeah. We got uniforms and everything. Right?

Pat Millea [00:16:28]:
We play Princeton every year.

Matt Birk [00:16:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. We beat them. And, I show up and it's like I got John Randle, who I, like, admired. I was a huge Vikings fan. I'm like, John Randle's the baddest man on the face of the earth. And then it's like, oh, wait. I gotta try to block him now.

Matt Birk [00:16:45]:
John was crazy. He still is crazy. Yeah. His mentality, his motor, that's why John was a was is a hall of fame football player because, he just never I never once I mean, I mean this. People say these things like, oh, he never took a play off. Like, you can in practice, he would just not even if you blocked him, he would just keep working until he which was it? If you blocked him once out of a hundred times. Sure. He would just keep throwing moves and doing this and that until he was by you.

Matt Birk [00:17:18]:
Like, he's just crazy crazy. So Oh, good. I hated it. I hated my first two years in the NFL because I'd go to work every day and try to block him in practice, and I could never do it. Hated it. Wouldn't have chosen it. But looking back, it was, you know, it was the best thing for me as a in my football development. Because once I

Kenna Millea [00:17:36]:
Absolutely.

Matt Birk [00:17:37]:
kinda start to sorta block John Yeah. I was like, you know, maybe I can maybe I can do this. Yeah. Yeah. Because not everybody's John Randle.

Pat Millea [00:17:45]:
Yeah. Then, like, Joe Blow for the Chargers is not such a threat anymore. Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:17:48]:
Yeah. I'm not scared of you. Okay. I see John Randle every day.

Pat Millea [00:17:52]:
Yeah. Seriously. Oh, that's amazing. That's great. So then, there's a little more significant then. So in terms of, you know, getting into the realm of, like, sports and and, like, the mental side of sports, things like that, is there a time in your career, whatever, NFL college, even back to high school, that you felt totally, like, crushed, demoralized, I can't do this, discouraged. Like, at at what was there a point where the mental side of the game was a real challenge for you?

Matt Birk [00:18:20]:
Oh, yeah. I mean, well, you know, high school so I didn't start playing football till I was in the tenth grade. You talk about your kids playing outside, you know, when I grew up, when you guys grew up, that's all you could do. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so sports was a huge part of my childhood just from the standpoint. Like, if that's what we did. Mhmm.

Matt Birk [00:18:39]:
Yeah. I have two brothers. We we were always we grew up in a neighborhood full of kids. We'd play kick the can, stick ball, you know, football in the street, whatever. You know? And, I love sports, but I wasn't any good at them, which didn't matter back then because you just played. Right? And, I played everything except football. And then I got to high school. I actually transferred high schools, by after my freshman year, and I went to Cretin-Derham Hall.

Matt Birk [00:19:08]:
Mhmm. Just they got some good sports teams there. And

Kenna Millea [00:19:12]:
I've heard things.

Matt Birk [00:19:12]:
I had a bunch of buddies there, like, hey. Come out for football. You know? And I was I was kinda I was a kind of a short, fat, slow, weak, not good looking kid because that that might be too much information.

Kenna Millea [00:19:25]:
I'm having all the time believing

Kenna Millea [00:19:26]:
this, but okay.

Matt Birk [00:19:27]:
And, but now it's kind of, you know, starting to get taller and a little bit bigger and kinda, you know, hit puberty, I guess. And they're, hey. You should go for football. You know? Practice starts in August. You meet some more guys, and and I did. And that's where, that's where I just kinda discovered, like, two of the gifts that God gave me, which is getting in people's way and grabbing onto them. Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:19:48]:
Which is good for an offensive lineman. Like, those aren't gifts you'd think you'd want, but, and I didn't know I had them until then. So I was just kinda naturally good at it, and I loved being good at something. I loved lifting weights. I loved eating food. It was, you know, the camaraderie of the football team. Mhmm. You know, let's go let's go to Godfather's Pizza on Sundays.

Matt Birk [00:20:07]:
You know, it's all you can eat buffet. Right? Like, this is what we're supposed to do. We're high school football players. Let's Yep. Eat till we throw up. You know? Like, I I just loved, like, everything about it, and I was kinda good at it. Right? Yeah. And so played in in in high school and just just played just like I'm good.

Matt Birk [00:20:24]:
And didn't have aspirations to play college football. Didn't think I played college football, but I did. I mean, I got recruited by, you know, Ivy League schools. That's so it was like, well, shoot. I'll go there. You know? And I showed up there. I was just kinda thinking, yeah. I'm just gonna show up and just kinda make it happen here.

Matt Birk [00:20:41]:
Well, I was, you know, away from home for the first time, playing against 22 year old men. You know, I was 18. There's there's a difference. Yep. Uh-huh. And, and, oh, by the way, to go into class with a bunch of people who are just, like, you know, brilliant.

Kenna Millea [00:20:56]:
Rocket scientists.

Matt Birk [00:20:57]:
So it was like it was really the first time in my life where I just experienced, like, a ton of failure, and I'm away from home. Right? Like, I thought, oh, I can't wait to leave home. I'm I'm done with this place. Right? I mean, I was so homesick. So, I don't know how long this podcast is. It might be five hours. Yep. Great.

Pat Millea [00:21:15]:
Sounds good. In your face, Joe Rogan.

Matt Birk [00:21:16]:
So when I came home for Christmas break so I didn't come home for Thanksgiving. Yeah. We didn't have any money. And so I come home for Christmas, and I'd went to college with two duffel bags, and I came home from Christmas with two duffel bags. And I was like, I'm not going back. All my buddies were at University of St. Thomas.

Matt Birk [00:21:34]:
You know, at Cretin, we call it thirteenth grade. Yeah. Right. Half our class goes there, and I'm like, I'm just gonna go there. I'm gonna play football there, be with my buddies. They look like they're having fun. And I remember finally, like, towards the end of break, I I sat my parents down, and I was like, here's the plan. You know? I'm not gonna go back.

Matt Birk [00:21:50]:
And my dad you don't know my dad, but he kinda sat there and listened, and he just said, oh, you're going back. And that was the end of the conversation. Yeah. I was like, okay. And he later, he wrote me a letter and, which back then, you know, you actually send letters once in a while, and it said, hey. You know, I was like, I get it. You know, you're you're going through a tough time, but you're 18, playing football, you're at a great school, you know, you got your whole life in front of you. When I was 18, I got a one way ticket to Vietnam, and he's like, I was told I was going there.

Matt Birk [00:22:23]:
You know? And it just really, like, kinda put things in perspective. Like, woah. Because I was, you know, I was I was done. Like, I used to tell you, I was done, like, with everything. Like I said, I was gonna leave. Yeah. Yeah. And just having, you know, that perspective, it was like, yeah.

Matt Birk [00:22:37]:
I need to, like, maybe be a little more grateful and and just be a little bit tougher. You know? So again, tough time, but but great time because then it just sort of sort of gave me that, you know, perspective and reassurance. Like Yeah. You know, it's it's gonna be okay. And then you just, you know, thankfully stuck with it and worked through it. Right? And then you realize, jeez, you know? Yeah. Sometimes things take time. So you just gotta work a little bit harder.

Matt Birk [00:23:03]:
This is this is the process. But that was probably the toughest time, for me, just all those all those factors at once. Yeah. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:23:11]:
Well and I'm thinking too about, you know, what you opened with, Matt, of seeing your daughter go through something difficult right now and walking with her and and just knowing that you have that perspective too, that experience, you know, behind you. And and I'm wondering, as you think about maybe that second semester of freshman year, what else? You know, beyond just dad giving you maybe a little reality check, broadening your world a little bit, like, what else would you point to as, like, this is what helped me either, like, bide the time so that things could you know, the the clouds could pass, or things that you did to kind of take ownership, take agency, and, like, make the situation better for yourself. Like, what do you recall?

Matt Birk [00:23:49]:
Well, I think, you know, you you show up on campus, and it's like, literally, a football coach picked me up at the airport. We went straight to the football facility, and it was like, you know, height and weight, and here's your helmet, and we're practicing tomorrow. Jeez. You dive into football, and then it's like, oh, yeah. We got class too. It's just such an adjustment Yeah. Away from home and and all that stuff. And, I think got through the season, got through Christmas, got into second semester, not playing football.

Matt Birk [00:24:15]:
Not the season, just working out for a couple hours a day. Yeah. You kinda get to catch your breath a little bit, do some thinking. You've got, kind of time to develop, like, friendships. You know, you're with guys. You're playing football, but it was like class, football, study, bed. You just go on, go on, go on. It's obviously a little bit more relaxed.

Matt Birk [00:24:36]:
Your schedule's a little bit more relaxed in the off season.

Kenna Millea [00:24:38]:
Mhmm.

Matt Birk [00:24:39]:
And then you you just kinda get to settle in, and then it was like, okay. I think I've been and then you finish that first year. It's like, okay. I did it once. I know I can do it again. I know next year is gonna be better because I kinda I know where the lecture halls are. Right. I'm not gonna be a freshman next year.

Matt Birk [00:24:56]:
I'll get to beat on some freshmen in practice. And, you know, so I think it was it was that, but definitely, you know yeah. It's like you gotta get through the first year. You know, I've had kids in college, and it's like, oh, I don't know. You know? I don't know if I like this. I'm like, you you just you gotta give it a year. You know? You'll give it a year. Go back for the second year.

Matt Birk [00:25:14]:
And that's actually proven to be true for, two of my daughters that that are in college. Now first year, little rocky, I'm like, hey. It's it's supposed to be. Yeah. This is totally natural. Everything you're feeling, it's totally natural. You gotta trust me. You're gonna be okay.

Matt Birk [00:25:28]:
You just can't you just can't quit.

Kenna Millea [00:25:30]:
I think that's such a a great reminder of in in this world, particularly in social media and just in the culture, there's so much that is romanticized and and shown this idyllic, you know, that that freshman year of college should be all parties and instant best friendships and

Pat Millea [00:25:45]:
The drone shots of college campuses. Like, look at all these happy people.

Kenna Millea [00:25:50]:
Yeah. And to, like, normalize, like, difficulty, discomfort, like, that doesn't mean you're doing something wrong. It doesn't mean you're in the wrong place.

Matt Birk [00:25:57]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:25:58]:
And when I think about resilience, you know, in young people, who just haven't had a lot of life to live yet and that's not their fault, it's just the reality of only being 18 or 19 or whatever, and kind of living a a bubbled life maybe with mom and dad, you know, right there to pick them up, that just this message of, like, hey. Like, being uncomfortable, being, not not knocking it out of the park is not a sign

Kenna Millea [00:26:21]:
that you

Kenna Millea [00:26:21]:
are in the wrong place and should quit and give up.

Matt Birk [00:26:23]:
I think the other thing that was really helpful was there was 25 other guys who were in the same boat as me. I mean, we were yeah. We come from all over the country. We think we're yeah. I'll be honest. When I left high school, I'm thinking, I'm pretty good at this life thing.

Pat Millea [00:26:37]:
Right. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:26:38]:
You were you were hot stuff.

Pat Millea [00:26:39]:
I am crushing it.

Matt Birk [00:26:40]:
Yeah. Everybody's telling me how awesome awesome I am, and then we all showed up. We're like, oh, we're not as awesome as we thought. And going through and this is you know, they talk about football. It's applicable to military, to anything, to a family. When you the the common suffering. You know,

Matt Birk [00:26:55]:
that

Matt Birk [00:26:55]:
and when you got 25 other guys, it's like we'd look around and you wouldn't say it in front of the older guys, but we'd be, like, walking from practice to the to the to the Freshman dining Hall. We're like I mean, guys, we are we are not doing well. Like, we'd always have, like, contests like, did you hear that coach yell at me? Did you see what that guy did to me on that play? Yeah. And just to go through with other people who are going through the exact same thing. Yeah. That's that's helpful too. Yeah. That's huge.

Pat Millea [00:27:22]:
Well, a lot of the stuff

Pat Millea [00:27:24]:
that we do in this podcast, Matt, is just talk about the integration of all the different parts of the human person that God has given us. Right? So mind, body, soul, all working together. When they don't work together, really bad things happen. Right? So I wanna get to the soul part of it because I think the faith relationship with sports can be a tricky one, but a good one. But just sticking with the with the mind part of it as well. I think, you know, recently, the the field of sports psychology has just exploded in the past probably ten, twenty years in the the the Netflix series quarterback that we watched.

Kenna Millea [00:27:56]:
Love that show.

Matt Birk [00:27:57]:
I'm waiting for Linemen

Matt Birk [00:28:00]:
I'm not kidding. I think it would be fast. You guys nobody knows about lineman. I gotta find me a producer.

Pat Millea [00:28:06]:
You did great. You could be the producer.

Matt Birk [00:28:08]:
Or maybe yeah.

Matt Birk [00:28:08]:
If I

Matt Birk [00:28:08]:
knew what a producer did.

Pat Millea [00:28:09]:
Oh my gosh. I would watch offensive line. You sign that up. I'll be ready for it. Yeah. I'm gonna try. Oh, man. But, yeah, session like Kirk Cousins sitting down with a sports psychologist, which I can't imagine the release of information that he had to sign, by the way, to put sessions on Netflix.

Pat Millea [00:28:24]:
But whatever. That's a separate clinical thing. What what helped you just keep your mind right in relationship with sports? You know, you hear athlete's talking a lot of times about not getting too high, not getting too low. Yeah. What what were your strategies or kind of supports?

Matt Birk [00:28:39]:
Well, I mean, I'd like to say that, like, I did it right, but I don't think I did. I mean, mind and soul are connected. So, you know, when I got through college and got drafted by Vikings I'd fallen away from my faith pretty hard in college just because it was like, hey. There's all this other stuff to do. Right?

Matt Birk [00:28:56]:
And this

Matt Birk [00:28:56]:
this and by the way, I'm I'm good. Right? I've I I know all that stuff. I've done it. I'm a good person. Yeah. All this all this stuff that humans do because we're broken and stupid. Yep. So then I got to the Vikings, and I'm like, man, I am really, like yeah.

Matt Birk [00:29:11]:
Now I'm really crushing it. And, I had built an excuse not to go to Mass because I'm playing the Bears today. Can't make it. Right? I'm busy. I think that, kinda quick version of my story is I was sort of on top, if you will, playing for the Vikings, making a bunch of money. Everybody knew who I was because I'm from here and and but I on the inside, like, I was empty because everything that I, my whole identity was wrapped up into what I was, you know, not who I was. I forgot who I was. And it was great that I had great support here.

Matt Birk [00:29:48]:
I mean, I got great parents and family and friends, but I was just I drifted so far and then, met a young woman who became rather smitten with. And she became my wife, and that helped, definitely. And then, and then had her first child. Then it was sort of like, okay. I gotta figure things out. And so don't let me not answer your question, Pat. Yep. The NFL, this is what people find a lot of people find interesting.

Matt Birk [00:30:17]:
The locker room is a very spiritual place. Yeah. One, it's like just Christianity is like it's woven into the fabric of football. I don't know why. I think because it's a I think because it's a really hard game and, especially in the NFL, you know, it's it's violent. It's there's high highs. There's low lows. There's, there's tons of pressure.

Matt Birk [00:30:42]:
And so everybody's searching. Right? Even if you're a knucklehead 22 year old kid who doesn't know anything, your heart is searching. You're searching for for what's real, for what's true. And then just having, like, this strong Christian, these roots in the game. You know, every team I played on had a had a team chaplain who was there all the time. Door's always open. There'd be Bible studies all over the place. And three of the four head coaches I played for were Catholic, so

Matt Birk [00:31:11]:
we had Catholic Mass in the hotel, like, Saturday night or Sunday morning. So it's probably it's probably one of the few places you're, like, really actually encouraged to grow in your faith, like, if you want to. And, so but that you know, all that being said, like, you know, I think early on in my career because my identity was just tied to football. And, I mean, offensive line, I mean, you have a tortured existence as it is. Like, there's there's 70 plays in a game. And, like, even an average offensive alignment, like, you're gonna have 60 plays that are fine or good. Yeah. This is average.

Matt Birk [00:31:47]:
You know, you'll have 10 that are like, eh, and maybe you have a couple disasters. Well and so maybe I'd have five bad plays in a game, and I would always like, I wouldn't sleep the night after games because you're just replaying that in your mind. We call it we call it a horror film. Like, I keep replaying the horror film in my mind. And I think at first and early in my career, it was more so just because it was like, this was everything to me. You know? What if what if they cut me and I'm not a football player anymore? Like, oh my gosh. On the back end, you know, it's married and kids and maybe in a little bit better spot spiritually, then it's more you just feel badly because you just feel like you're letting your teammates down. Sure.

Matt Birk [00:32:28]:
You know? Mhmm. That's that really does. There is a really strong bond with football players. So, you know, I will maybe I will answer your question. Maybe I won't. But when I went to the Ravens in 2009, they had two sports psychiatrists on staff, which was the first I'd ever heard about it. And I got to be pretty friendly with them. I mean, sometimes you just have just you know, you eat lunch with them in the cafeteria.

Matt Birk [00:32:56]:
Sure. And one of them told me one time that two thirds of the guys on the team were on some form of sleeping medication. Like, guys can't sleep. How important is sleep to the average person, much less to a professional athlete? But that's how, you know, that's how stressful and, like, even tormented athletes are for for a bunch of reasons. Mhmm. And, so, yeah, it's it's really, really hard just because it's you're young. You know, you're kinda dumb. There's all these influences and forces pulling at you.

Matt Birk [00:33:31]:
You know? And oh, and by the way, yeah, like, there's, you know, a million people watching you every week. So it's there's a lot going on. I I can't really say that I would I tried to employ, you know, any specific mental strategies. Like I said, sports psychiatry was more of, like, kinda after when I when I was playing. Mhmm. But, I don't know. You just I I think it was just I think it was just, like, resilience. You know? You're just gonna, like, just keep going, keep going, use it as fuel to try to to try to get better.

Pat Millea [00:34:00]:
Mhmm.

Matt Birk [00:34:00]:
I guess, one time a coach said to me in this maybe I'd hang my hat on this. He said, you know, nobody's ever played the perfect game. You know, they had been, you know, the best players that nobody's ever played a perfect game. So even though you're you kind of, like, in your mind, you're sort of chasing perfection, you do know deep down that it's not, not attainable. Mhmm. And, I don't know. I guess that's maybe the best answer I can give.

Pat Millea [00:34:25]:
Well, it makes sense that the that the spiritual and the mental go hand in hand, that it's easy to lose track of a little mental stability, a little sense of identity when your faith life isn't rooted deeply. You know? Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:34:35]:
Yeah. It's no. No. I was definitely, my kids have heard my story, you know, a million times when I speak about it, but I, you know, I always say don't I'm telling you this so you don't make the same mistakes that I did. Right? Because it was just boy, it was quite a quite a wandering through the woods, if you will. And it could have been a it could have been a lot lot better, a lot easier if I'd have figured it out sooner, but, you know, that's that's my journey. Totally.

Pat Millea [00:35:01]:
It is. Yeah. And I'm imagining that, you know, most of our audience probably not D1 or NFL football players. So You never know. That's true. That's true. We may have a a big quiet majority out there of, of newly drafted NFL players listening to This Whole Life. I think for most of us that are in this kind of, like, thirties, forties, fifties kind of realm of Catholic Christian life, a lot of it has to do with our kids and navigating sports with them.

Pat Millea [00:35:29]:
So, you know, from from the athletic side, from the mental, from the spiritual side, just and make first kind of brush strokes, what's your take on the current state of youth sports?

Kenna Millea [00:35:41]:
This is

Kenna Millea [00:35:41]:
where it becomes a five hour podcast.

Pat Millea [00:35:43]:
Yes. Right. I know.

Matt Birk [00:35:44]:
Five episodes of five hours. Totally totally broken. It's like a race to nowhere, I think.

Kenna Millea [00:35:52]:
Can you what about I have my own ideas, and I'll be happy to share them with you. But, can you tell me, like, what about it is broken? What feels different maybe than a time when youth sports was serving a greater purpose?

Matt Birk [00:36:03]:
Yeah. Well, I think it's you always look at, like, okay. Well, how's it supposed to work? You know, like, that's that's kinda used to how's this supposed to work? And sports are play. Right? So play is supposed to be fun and joyful, and there's these great benefits to it, mind, body, and soul. It's all connected. Like I said, that's I'm so I tell my kids. I'm like, all the time, and they're like, I'm the become the old guy now. I'm almost 50.

Matt Birk [00:36:26]:
And they're like, dad, you know, roll your eyes. But, man, when I was a kid, like, I say it was Saint Paul in the eighties. It was like peak America because we just played. Yeah. And, like, nobody cared. There were no travel teams, maybe an all star team here or there, but I'd play for my school. I'd play for the rec center. You know, we get a t shirt.

Matt Birk [00:36:45]:
Right? Like, that's what you get a t shirt. Yeah. Now it's like you're getting the full uniform, the work the warm up suits, the shooter shirts. I mean, I don't even know what all this stuff is. Yeah. But it's kinda become like a it's the the the professionalization of youth sports. Where when I played, it was just like, hey. This is good.

Matt Birk [00:37:04]:
It's good for kids. You know, just do your best. And now we're trying to figure out who's the best. Mhmm. Right? At, like, age six. Mhmm. And so it really it's it's, it's it's I don't think it's I don't like it. I don't think it's good.

Matt Birk [00:37:21]:
I think, you know, kids are kids are missing out, but we're also not like like, how's it supposed to work? This is supposed to be for the development of our children. Mhmm. Well, now it's like we're you know, it's it's like a six year old baseball. It's like a it's a tryout. You know? We're trying to figure out, and and kids are you know, we're we're placing them. You're you're good. You're not. You're good.

Matt Birk [00:37:42]:
I mean, they're just missing out on opportunities to just be kids and play and and have fun and have joy and

Pat Millea [00:37:48]:
Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:37:48]:
Be with their friends. And then, you know, we talk about all these things that sports are supposed to help develop. You know? Well, in this culture where it's like, we gotta win. We gotta we gotta get better. You know? It's like like, coaches actually have, like, an agenda. Kids are miss out on all that. You know? And this is it's I I think I think the culture of youth sports is very, very broken. Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:38:11]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:38:11]:
Well, and I think too about, I was not an athlete growing up. I did not really play sports. I was a I was a rower and as a junior and senior in high school. So, like, cheerleader before that, but rower in upper high school. And what I think about looking at my siblings who are younger and who are more involved in sports was how it brought awesome adults into their life. You know, the mentorship through their coaches

Matt Birk [00:38:34]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:38:35]:
Getting to know other teammates' parents and things like that, and how, like, when when you say, like, how is it supposed to work, to me, another aspect is, like, the communal relationship building. And now in this, like, dog eat dog, you know, where parents are turning against each other, you know, best friends because my kid got onto the triple a's and didn't make whatever. Like, that is, I think, being lost as well is the value of our children getting to benefit from just a broader support network of adults who care about them, who care about them in this moment, not for what they can produce in the future or Yes. Like, what they can achieve. But, like, I love you because you are good and you are here and you're making this effort and you wanna be here. So I think that's an aspect too that I've reflected on as our our our oldest son is 12. So, like, just getting into the he's on his first travel baseball team. Like, just getting into this world of of sports and playing Catholic Athletic Association stuff.

Kenna Millea [00:39:30]:
So these are things that I'm, like, reflecting on of, like like, what if we're gonna put our money, our time, you know, our energy into this, like, what is it that I want to be seeing in his life?

Matt Birk [00:39:40]:
And you brought up that's really important because now I think somebody said, hey. You know, there's some money to be made here. Right? Yeah. And so and it they kinda cracked the door open to travel teams and off season training and all this stuff. And one, I think parenting now has become sort of a competitive sport, if you will, for a lot of people. Mhmm. And they think that, like, somehow if your kid's a good baseball player that that reflects on you as a parent. You know? So it's, you know, social media, whatever.

Matt Birk [00:40:08]:
But now to be in sports, as a parent, you're investing a lot of time and money, what you just said. And so it's harder to just kinda sit back and enjoy it. Mhmm. You're almost like, hey. You know? That's a thousand dollars, why

Kenna Millea [00:40:21]:
Yeah. I want something for my

Matt Birk [00:40:24]:
is my kid out there picking dandelions? You know? Why is he

Kenna Millea [00:40:27]:
Warming the bench.

Matt Birk [00:40:28]:
Right? And so as parent, you're kinda thinking though, like, hey. We're where's yeah. When I play I mean, yeah, my parents came to all my games, but we'd have, like, one game a week. And I just remember and they were busy, like, working, like, trying to put food on the table. Yeah. You know? And now it's just like parents are so invested and they're so involved in their kids' childhood. Like, maybe too much so. And I'm speaking to myself too Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:40:51]:
A little bit.

Kenna Millea [00:40:52]:
But

Matt Birk [00:40:52]:
yeah. It so it it's it's not like I mean, to your point, it's like we're kinda stuck. We're stuck in this space where well, if you if you if you want your you you wanna do best, do right by your kids, you wanna give them all the opportunities, you kinda have to you have to be in this travel sports AAU world. Because if you don't, I mean, kids probably will be able to play later on even in high school in a lot of cases because just the development of these of our of our youth athletes is happening so much quicker because they're just doing it so much Yeah. So much more.

Kenna Millea [00:41:24]:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Pat Millea [00:41:25]:
I mean, in Minnesota, the the great kind of, like, hilarious example I always come back to is people would talk jokingly, but I don't think it's a joke. They're like, well, you know, if your kid's not skating by three, they're never gonna make it to the NHL. Like

Kenna Millea [00:41:38]:
NHL? The high school team.

Pat Millea [00:41:40]:
Chill out. Yeah. Maybe they can't play for Edina because they can start skating at three. I just relax. It's gonna be I just especially when I was doing youth ministry stuff back in the day, I never quite had the guts, but I was always tempted to just, like, at the confirmation meeting at the beginning of the fall with all the Yeah. Confirmation parents, just to be, like, point blank, listen, your kid is not gonna get a D1 scholarship.

Matt Birk [00:42:03]:
Yeah. That's true.

Pat Millea [00:42:04]:
And if in four years it turns out I'm wrong, I'll be thrilled to be wrong. But I wanna release you of the pressure to give up everything faith wise to invest in this dream that statistically is not gonna happen. Right. You know? It just but but that mentality, I think that investment thing is really interesting, you know?

Kenna Millea [00:42:22]:
But here's the thing too. So you used this term a couple times, Matt. You said the professionalization. And and I think with that has like, for me, the other word that comes with those, like, the commodification, like, creating this revenue, you know, producing machine that is youth sports right now.

Matt Birk [00:42:39]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:42:39]:
And I was saying to a colleague before we started the interview, she's like, oh, what are you guys gonna talk about? And I was kind of sharing my ideas of the things I wanted to talk about. And, and I was saying, like, this this pressure to feel like you've gotta get your kid the best equipment, the best coach, the, you know, private coach Yeah. Yeah. To be on the best league, to be in the best, you know, whatever facility. And and the cynic in me is like someone is benefiting from this frenzied, you know, atmosphere that you're creating among the parents Yeah. Of, like, well, this season is over, but have you gotten him with that coach that he can try out next year for the like, just

Matt Birk [00:43:13]:
Oh, yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:43:13]:
Insane. And if we think about it in the broader culture of how much this parallels what we're what we're seeing in terms of you know, you talk about competitive parenting in social media. Like, is that not the land of comparison? You know, just that that we are kind of living this, it makes sense then that it's also seeping into the way we're parenting and the way we're parenting around sports.

Pat Millea [00:43:33]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:43:34]:
And so if we the the the horse I will continue to beat, I know it's dead, but the the our values are so important to, like, be able as parents to name, like, what is the point of putting my kid in sports? Yeah. Like, what is what is my hope?

Pat Millea [00:43:49]:
What's the goal?

Kenna Millea [00:43:50]:
Yeah. For doing this. And then can I continue evaluating? Can I give myself the permission to continue assessing? Is it bearing the fruit that I hope it is? Yeah. Because if not, we will create an anxiety producing machine of of meaninglessness. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:44:05]:
So that's my soapbox.

Matt Birk [00:44:06]:
I mean, you see, I I've been in it a little bit longer than you guys. I have, you know, daughters have played travel, volleyball, and this and that. And I've so many so many of my daughter's peers or other parents, their kids, you know, they're they're in this this funnel. You know, they started in seventh grade. They specialized in this one sport, which I'm saying I'm not saying you because, oh, I wish kids would play all the sports they can. Unless you're, like, super just gifted and talented, you can't. Like, you do have to start skating at three. And, like, if you wanna play hockey at an average Minnesota high school, you have to be, like, elite.

Pat Millea [00:44:38]:
And only do that.

Matt Birk [00:44:40]:
Yes. So so you so we've you have to do it that way. But where kids have done this and oh, I had a daughter. She was a she's a pretty good volleyball player. And after her junior season, you know, she's doing all the club stuff, and then she said, I've decided I do not wanna play in college. And, so I'm I'm not gonna do club, and we're gonna play my senior year. And I was like, it's like, thank goodness.

Pat Millea [00:45:02]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:45:03]:
I'm tired of this travel volleyball thing personally. Now if anybody out there is in the travel volleyball grinder, you know what I'm talking about. God bless you. Yeah. Like, so many kids, they they they self select out because they're, like, they're tired of it. Yeah. And I think that's kinda sad. Like, I would get I listen.

Matt Birk [00:45:19]:
I tell people, I played I got paid millions of dollars to play football. I got tired of it. You know? Like, I would take you know, there were months where we didn't go on the field. You know? Like, that's you need a break, but we put these kids out there Yeah. 11, sometimes 12 months a year. Yeah. Like, of course, they're gonna get sick of it. And just to me, that's that's sad because sports, you only have so long to play sports

Kenna Millea [00:45:42]:
Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:45:42]:
In your life. And, you know, when you're done, you wanna be able to look back and just say, hey. That was awesome. Yeah. You know?

Pat Millea [00:45:48]:
What a good time. Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:45:49]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think we're we're just kinda taking that from our kids. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:45:52]:
Can I can I say also when you describe that situation with your daughter, like, you know, praise God she had parents who were detached enough from her volleyball career who weren't, like, you know, in behind the scenes mom to dad, like, okay? We're banking on that d one or d two scholarship for her. Yeah. Because that news and and really honoring her will in saying, guys, I'm done. I'm hanging up the travel hat could have been really devastating for you all if you were wrapped up in identity success, you know, with her around her performance. Mhmm. And and again, I I feel like now being, like I said, a parent of a 12 year old boy who loves every sport and is constantly playing something, I can see that that allure of, like, yeah, like you said earlier, Matt, like, my worth as a parent is wrapped up in how my kid is performing. And so then if they don't, if they choose to retire, you know, or what have you, like, I'm crushed. I'm devastated, to have that healthy sense of detachment.

Kenna Millea [00:46:49]:
It's work.

Matt Birk [00:46:49]:
Yeah. Well, like, our society, we put way too much value on hand eye coordination. You know? Like, we love I mean, it's like no. You know? People will say professional athlete. First of all, I wasn't a professional athlete. I was a lineman. K? Nobody chooses to be a lineman. It kind of chooses you, but I think growing up and not being, you know, that prodigy or whatever, like, I know.

Matt Birk [00:47:14]:
Like, I lost more games than I won, got beat a lot of times, like, you know, one on one. Like, I'm okay with it. So, like, when I see my kids out there, of course, I want them to do well, and sometimes I get a little wrapped up. And then post time, like, this is it. This is sport. You know? You win, you lose. Yeah. Like, in the NFL, we used to say, that guy, he gets paid too.

Matt Birk [00:47:31]:
That guy over there, like, he's gonna make some plays. Right. And it's so good. And I don't know. As parents, we've just forgotten. I don't know what it is, but we've we've forgotten that, like, you know, little Johnny's gonna be okay if they, you know but when they get spanked, you know, they lose by 20 points. Johnny's not gonna care in five minutes. Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:47:47]:
It like, it almost affects the parents more.

Kenna Millea [00:47:49]:
Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:47:50]:
I don't know. We're we're we're kinda we're really messed up. Yeah. It's it's really messed up. I wish, you know, we just kinda sound like the old guy saying get off my lawn, but

Pat Millea [00:47:59]:
Right. Right.

Matt Birk [00:47:59]:
Kinda go back where it's like rec centers and, you know, parents parents may maybe we should play games at, like, in the summer at, like, noon, you know, when Yeah. Sure. Most parents are were. Right. Like, keep the parents out of it. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:48:13]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it made me think that there was a mental image that immediately came to mind when you were talking about parents being maybe a little bit overly invested in their kids' childhood. Jonathan Haidt talks about that a lot, by the way, in a book called The Anxious Generation Yes. About how parents are just, like, hovering over every little aspect of their kids' lives and that traditionally, what kids need to grow up healthy is not their parent involved in every minute of their day. Yeah. A great parent knows when to just let them go play with other kids and go be a child, you know. But there was a a a time, maybe last year or the year before, one of our boys, was playing tackle football for the very first time.

Pat Millea [00:48:52]:
It was great. He was having fun. Was not the blessed player best player on the field. Definitely not the worst. Just having a ton of fun. Perfect. And there were so many parents. And we would just we have all these kids.

Pat Millea [00:49:02]:
What are we gonna do? Drop them off, I'll see you in two hours, buddy. See you later. And just, God bless them, dozens of parents with the folding chair watching every minute of a practice. A practice.

Matt Birk [00:49:14]:
Pat, I have, I coach middle school football.

Kenna Millea [00:49:16]:
You know this story?

Matt Birk [00:49:18]:
A lot of those parents,

Matt Birk [00:49:18]:
a lot of them are they're coming up to me telling me, hey. You know what you should do? I'm like, listen. I'm pretty sure I know what we should do. Okay? My goal here in middle school is to get your kid so he likes it and he plays in high school because but I wanna put in a plug for football here because Yeah. You know, in football, you know, I'm not it's not everybody's cup of tea, and and I get it. But, in this broken culture that we're talking about, like, the the great thing about football is there's a place for everybody.

Kenna Millea [00:49:46]:
You

Matt Birk [00:49:46]:
know? Big, little, tall, short, whatever. Like, every skill set is needed. Mhmm. And as long as you're not completely averse to some contact

Pat Millea [00:49:55]:
Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:49:56]:
Like, you can play football. And football teams, they don't cut. Mhmm. It's like the price of admission is you you gotta work. You know? Football's gonna hurt a little bit, but you pay the price. And so I think that's so good for kids these days, like, to get roughed up a little bit. Yeah. And, you know, I heard Steve Young say this once.

Matt Birk [00:50:11]:
He's like, the great thing about football is we have all these metaphors in life. In football, like, that really happens. Like, you do get knocked down. You gotta get back up. Sometimes you do drop the ball. And I think, you know, generally speaking, high school football coaches high school football, it's like a if you coach high school football, which is this is why I don't, it's a full time job that gets in the way of your full time job. Yeah. And you're spending all this time with other people's kids.

Matt Birk [00:50:40]:
Yeah. Like, you're as most high school and I've done a lot of work in high school football across the country. Like, those guys, that's their that's their mission.

Pat Millea [00:50:48]:
Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:50:48]:
You know, that's their ministry.

Pat Millea [00:50:49]:
Mhmm.

Matt Birk [00:50:49]:
His coach in high school football. And so you talk about the pair adults caring about kids, like high school football coach. You're gonna be a great coach. You gotta those kids gotta know you care about them Yeah. Because you're asking them to go beyond what they think you can Totally. This is gonna hurt, and and you're gonna willingly do it. So you don't you can't play travel football.

Pat Millea [00:51:12]:
Mhmm.

Matt Birk [00:51:12]:
They're trying to screw it up a little bit, but they're never gonna be able to do it. Yeah. You you can't play football year round, and you don't have to start I started playing in tenth grade. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people don't start playing. They they they kind of they get kicked out of these other sports because they're not a great hockey player or a great soccer player. It's like, I'll get

Matt Birk [00:51:31]:
I can play football. Right? And and so I wanna put a plug in there for for football because I get a lot of people asking me, well, he's never played before. I'm like, great. He's got no bad habits. He's got no scar tissue. Get him out there. They'll find a place for him and let him and let him find his way. Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:51:45]:
So that that is it's kinda the last it's kinda the last thing that's somewhat pure from from that standpoint. You don't have to have a a quarterback's coach when you're five. Right. Seriously.

Pat Millea [00:51:57]:
Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:51:58]:
I mean, I'm sure there's someone out there who wouldn't tell me I should buy one. But, hey, gentlemen. I gotta go pick up a preschooler. This is real life listeners.

Pat Millea [00:52:05]:
Real life.

Kenna Millea [00:52:05]:
It's happening. Friday afternoon.

Pat Millea [00:52:07]:
Before your very ears. That's right.

Kenna Millea [00:52:08]:
Lest I'm late, we have a serious date with reading a Beauty and the Beast book. So I am gonna go. Matt, thank you so much.

Pat Millea [00:52:14]:
Have fun with the preschooler. Thank you.

Kenna Millea [00:52:16]:
Bye, babe. I'll see you later.

Pat Millea [00:52:16]:
Bye, babe. See you in a bit. So, Matt, as a as a, a parent of athletes, as a middle school football coach, with the system the way it is, with youth sport youth sports culture being what it is, what are some, like, habits, kind of like best practices for parents to give their kids the best chance in the current culture that we have?

Matt Birk [00:52:37]:
Yeah. You know, I think you really have to you really have to go out of your way and make sure that your kids have fun. Because and, listen, I mean, I don't think anybody has bad intentions or bad person, but, if you're coaching a a team, you know, it's just kind of this culture. Like, you sort of feel like as a coach, like, really, we gotta win. You know? So really just go out of your way. Make sure your kids having a good time. Make sure you encourage them. I'll say a lot of, like, let me say, sort of, like, unprofessional coaches maybe.

Matt Birk [00:53:07]:
You know, youth coaches, volunteers. And maybe they think that, like well, let me just go back a little bit further. A lot of times you coach kids how you've been coached. Sure. There's a great, if anybody's looking at it, a guy named Joe Ehrmann, e h r m a n n. Joe was played for the Baltimore Colts way back in the day. Joe has probably done the best work on this. It's called Inside Out Coaching.

Matt Birk [00:53:32]:
Joe's story is amazing. The work he's done around coaching is amazing. But he talks about you coach the way you were coached. You know?

Pat Millea [00:53:40]:
Which sounds a lot like parenting, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People tend to parent the way they were parenting.

Matt Birk [00:53:45]:
It's kinda your default. Right? Unless you really are thoughtful about it and really figure out why you're doing it. And so, you know, like, Joe asked himself or says, you know, coaches ask yourself, what does it feel like to be coached by me? You know, think about that. I think most people it's kinda generational. Most people were coached that you're told, you know, when you screwed up, Like, hey. Dispar... And with the pressure, if you will, I think a lot of kids are probably over coached, over corrected. Come on, Billy. You gotta do this.

Matt Birk [00:54:15]:
Right? You really gotta make sure you just I mean, my whole thing, number one after again, do you have fun? Yeah. Even there in high school. Like, hey. Did you have fun? Like, you're supposed to be fun.

Pat Millea [00:54:24]:
Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:54:24]:
You know? And you you lost by twenty. Did you have fun? Like, dude, I saw you out there. I saw that one play. That was awesome. Mhmm. Like, it'll kinda be the energy bus. And then I really I try to talk as little as possible about it with my kids unless they bring it up.

Pat Millea [00:54:41]:
Sure.

Matt Birk [00:54:41]:
And then it's just, you know, I'm I'm just kinda, oh, yeah. That's great. I I don't try to get in there and you know, I mean, I got kids that play football. You know? I don't really try to coach them. I I like training with them. You know? I'll give training tips, but I don't really try to coach them. But I just wanna make sure I think the the I think the to break it down in the simplest terms, if a young kid is having fun and if he feels like he or she is getting better

Pat Millea [00:55:09]:
Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:55:10]:
That's all. That like, that's it. Yeah. Don't try to do any more than that. He or she does not care about wins and losses. Yeah. You know? If I'm if if I'm talking to some younger parents out there, your kids are coming up there, they don't care about wins and losses. They really don't.

Matt Birk [00:55:24]:
You know? Especially when they're little, like, just bring the treat. You know? Take them to Dairy Queen. Like, that's the most important thing. But even Totally. Even when they get older. You know? I mean, that's it. If they if they feel like, you know because they're working hard, they see improvement, and they're and people, like, well, they gotta be they gotta win to enjoy it. No.

Matt Birk [00:55:41]:
They don't. Yeah. No. They don't. Yeah. And that's that's over that's, that's over parenting. And, and I just I always look at it as a journey, you know, when my kids, it's like they're they're it's it's like an athletic journey, I would say. You know, when they're done playing sports, which most likely will be when they're done with high school.

Pat Millea [00:56:01]:
Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:56:01]:
Right. You said the odds are, you know, that you play in college is, like, one or 2% Yeah. Max. So I want them you know, it's a journey. You can be watching a game and sometimes it's your your kids, you know, for whatever reason. They're they're not playing well, you know, the refs are terrible. The other coach is yelling. And you can kinda get, like, oh, you know.

Matt Birk [00:56:20]:
Totally. This is one game in the course of, like, one million for your kid and their athletic journey. Yeah. You know, just just just relax. Yeah. Just relax.

Pat Millea [00:56:31]:
I love that. Yeah. That and and that's a great point, I think, just to help train kids in about life in general that, far be it for me as a parent to raise children who are only joyful when things are going well. Yeah. So, like, separating the joy from the win. Like, separating the fun of the game from wins and losses. Like, you can have a great time in a loss. And, yeah, like, it sucks to lose. Nobody well, I'm not in this to lose.

Pat Millea [00:56:55]:
Like Yeah. Be a competitive spirit is great. I wanna win every game. That's fine. But it doesn't mean that my life is miserable if things aren't going perfectly. And then translate that to, like, a bad grade in college. You get let go from your first job. You you get go through a breakup.

Pat Millea [00:57:12]:
Like

Matt Birk [00:57:12]:
Your girlfriend breaks up with you. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:57:13]:
Totally. You know? Right. And, like, yeah. You can feel the pain of that, and you should, that that that you don't have to ignore reality, but just not being devastated by every little setback. I mean, that's what a great kind of, like, life skill. Yeah.

Matt Birk [00:57:26]:
Well, I mean, it's spiritual. You're, like, you run to win the race. Right? Like, that's what you're supposed to do, and I've when and that's why I think there's a great opportunity, and I've worked on a program with, with Cisco called 4HG, For His glory.

Matt Birk [00:57:38]:
We're trying to infuse, you know, keep Christ at the center of athletics and really say, like, hey. God gave you these gifts. Like, your only job your only job is to go out there and try as hard as you can. You know, use your gifts. Right? Because that's that's like, they say God blessed you. That that's your way to, like, give back to God. Right. Chariots of Fire.

Matt Birk [00:57:56]:
You know, a great running movie, and the guy said something to the it was like, God made me fast. He likes it when I run fast. Yeah. You know? Like, that's that's your job, man. And it's just so precious, like, to have these moments of to be able to play and be on a team and compete, and especially when you can do it for your school. Like, you wear a uniform with your school's name on it. You know? You're representing something bigger than yourself. All these things we talk about that that the good that sports, can be, it's like, yeah.

Matt Birk [00:58:29]:
We're we're we're missing it in a lot of places because we're worried about, worried about getting the college scholarship. Yeah. Right. That's a shame.

Pat Millea [00:58:38]:
Mhmm. Final question, I think, that's coming to mind is on the flip side of the coin then. So if there are parents out there who are totally hesitant to even get their kids involved in sports because they can see all the stuff from a distance that's broken. Right? They see the parents screaming at the umps. They see how expensive it is. They see kids that are totally dejected and getting berated by parents at the end of a game. What what encouragement would you give parents to give it a shot? Like, what what are the benefits of youth sports, and what why is it worth it to just try something and see how it goes?

Matt Birk [00:59:13]:
Well, I think I think you do need to look at it as, hey. This is a this is a tool for development, depending on what age and what level. But, I mean, obviously, physical, emotional, even spiritual. It's good for kids to be with their friends. Kids today, you know, they don't go outside and play as much as we did. They they need that. And depending on the age, and it's it's fine to, you know, go up to the coach because coaches, they're just volunteers. They're just parents and be like, hey, coach.

Matt Birk [00:59:42]:
You know? I'm Matt. I just want you to know, one, thank you. Thanks for taking the time to do this. Two, I'm not worried about my kid being a professional this or that. I just want him to have fun. Like, I think coaches sometimes feel this imaginary pressure. They're like, you know, I gotta act like I'm, I don't know who Chris Finch. I you know, I gotta act like I'm a professional coach.

Matt Birk [01:00:04]:
It's like, you know Yep. You know, like, give the coach some reassurance, like, hey. We're good. You know? Do you need any help? And just, you know, try to help create the culture on your team. Don't dive into the to the travel thing. Although, we've had, you know, we've had great experiences in in some on some travel teams as well. I look back at my own, career, and and and a lot of it too is it's just chance. As a kid, I had good coaches.

Matt Birk [01:00:29]:
Yeah. I had some terrible coaches too. It's not like it's it's just exclusive to to this day and age. But I was very fortunate to have great coach in high school, a great coach in college, and some great coaches in the NFL. And that's why I was, you know, able to do it. The other thing that I I I wanna talk to the parents out there who, are are who are into it, you know, the ones that come up to me, like, hey. My kid wants to play d one for me. Right.

Matt Birk [01:00:54]:
Right. Let me tell you something about college and and pro sports. One, I'm not sure you do want your kid playing college sports. It's not all it's cracked up to be.

Pat Millea [01:01:05]:
Well, especially now between, like, portal and NIL and, like, holy cow. What a what a circus.

Matt Birk [01:01:11]:
Even that, but you gotta understand it. You know, when when I play high school was just high school. You get to college, it's a business. Yeah. Now high school is kind of becoming that a little bit in some places, but college is a business. If you don't play well and that coach gets fired, he's gotta go find another job. He's gotta move his family, pull his kids out of school. It's not the healthiest environment.

Matt Birk [01:01:31]:
Yeah. I mean Yeah. For a lot of reasons. And then you get to the NFL and or pros and nobody cares how you're doing. Totally. How are you feeling? Are you having fun? Nobody cares. Yeah. You are paid to do a job.

Matt Birk [01:01:44]:
I tell parents, just look, 90% of it. 90% of what will determine if your kid goes to college, if that's your thing. It's just genetics.

Pat Millea [01:01:53]:
Yeah.

Matt Birk [01:01:53]:
It's just genetics, man. I mean, you can't do anything about it. Yeah. And so then the 10% of people that are in that have the genetics to do it, you know, the top 10% of them, they go on. And that's that's based on work ethic. Totally. But, like, if your kid's not outside, you know, shooting hoops, like, every day, if they're if you got a hoop and they're not using it, your kid doesn't love basketball. Yeah.

Matt Birk [01:02:15]:
Either they don't love basketball, which, you know what, is 100% fine Yeah. Or you got them practicing basketball too much because you got them on three travel teams and shooting coach. You know? Like, to become, you know, an an elite athlete, you just you need to have one, the talent, and then two, you just need to love, I call it the lonely work. So, like, the, you know, the the process Yep. The training. I mean, I'm, like, I'm in alignment. Nobody cares. I get it.

Matt Birk [01:02:46]:
But the reason why I was I loved lifting weights. You know? God made me strong. He likes it when I lift heavy things. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I'll you never once had to tell me, hey. You gotta go lift weights.

Matt Birk [01:02:57]:
You never I loved eating food. Okay? Like, those two thing in and of itself. I loved the process of being it wasn't it wasn't a means to an end for me. It wasn't like I'm lifting weights because I wanna get a college scholarship. It was like Yeah. No. I just love lifting weights. And so, the the the young person, the boy or the girl, they have to just love that process, that the the the practice.

Matt Birk [01:03:21]:
You know, the lonely work when no when you're not telling them when you're not driving them to practice, when they're just doing it on their own, then that means they really like it. Yeah. You know? And that's what'll make them successful. So it doesn't say anything about your character if you love basketball or not or football or the guys. Like, just Yes. You know what? Like, let your kid be a kid. Let them try as many things as possible. Yeah.

Matt Birk [01:03:41]:
Try to try to find their thing, and everybody finds their they find their they find their place. Yeah. You know?

Pat Millea [01:03:47]:
Yeah. I love that. That's so good.

Matt Birk [01:03:49]:
That's my rant.

Pat Millea [01:03:50]:
Oh my gosh.

Matt Birk [01:03:51]:
This is therapeutic.

Pat Millea [01:03:52]:
Well, like I said, we could do five more hours on this, but I assume that you have things to do. You probably have kids that are waiting for you to drive them to practice later on tonight. So,

Matt Birk [01:04:00]:
That's true.

Matt Birk [01:04:01]:
I'm in the world too, man.

Pat Millea [01:04:03]:
Oh my gosh. So we always like to end up with, wrap up with some kind of a challenge by choice, something that's, like Yeah. Actionable, practical for folks out there. What's something that you would offer, to maybe parents or folks kinda navigating sports in their own life?

Matt Birk [01:04:17]:
Yeah. Well, I I would say this. So, you know, we we our kids are always we're always everybody's being assessed all the time. I mean, from the from the moment you're born, you're being assessed. You know, they take your vitals and Yeah. School and sports and, like, go out there and I'd say, you know, just play catch with your kid or shoot baskets with her or whatever, and don't judge. Don't be like don't try to correct them. Yeah.

Matt Birk [01:04:41]:
You know, feel like, hey. We're out here because I've gotta get Johnny's fastball better. Just enjoy that moment of playing catch or shooting hoops or whatever with your kid. And this is what I try to do for myself too because, I mean, listen, I'm the most competitive guy you know. Yeah. I mean, I really am. But, like and I remind myself with kids when we're when we're doing sports things, we're just doing it for fun. Yeah.

Matt Birk [01:05:03]:
This isn't a this isn't a practice session. Yeah. We're not, I'm not their coach. Like but just enjoy that moment. And I remember when I was growing up, my dad I mean, he was a baseball guy, and I can remember so many times playing catch in the front yard with him throwing the baseball. And those are my best memories Yeah. As a kid. You know? Yeah.

Matt Birk [01:05:22]:
The best time with my dad. And, I think it's, like, parents, we forget that. You know? And your kids you're not gonna play catch with them forever. Yeah. And, and they don't they don't want you because when when you're telling your kid they do it this way, that's not always I I know you mean well, but that's not always being received to them. They might be hearing, I'm not good enough. Yeah. Right.

Matt Birk [01:05:42]:
My dad my my mom doesn't think I'm good enough.

Pat Millea [01:05:44]:
Like the criticism.

Matt Birk [01:05:45]:
Yeah. Like, ten minutes, you know, do something athletic with your kid just to do it. And don't don't judge them, don't coach them. Just just do that.

Pat Millea [01:05:57]:
That's so good. I love that. I'm gonna try to do that tonight. Thank you.

Matt Birk [01:05:58]:
I am too.

Pat Millea [01:05:59]:
That's very helpful.

Matt Birk [01:06:00]:
I'm gonna take my own advice and actually try it.

Pat Millea [01:06:03]:
Well, Matt, why don't we wrap up in prayer, and then, we'll send folks on their way to to get out there and do this stuff, man. Sound good?

Matt Birk [01:06:08]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [01:06:08]:
In the

Pat Millea [01:06:09]:
name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Lord Jesus, we thank you so much for all your amazing and generous gifts. Thank you for creating each of us, for loving us, for saving us. Thank you for giving us, Lord, these bodies and minds and souls to honor you and to serve you with our efforts, with our with our prayers, with our worship, and with all that we do. We pray in a particular way, Lord, for all athletes today, for their health, for their well-being, for their sense of self, and their connection to you. We pray for all parents out there, Lord, who are navigating, sports for their own children.

Pat Millea [01:06:50]:
We pray for a keen sense of of trust and humility, a keen sense of, our identity and our children's identity that can be rooted in you and you alone and not in, any particular activity. Saint Sebastian, please pray for us. Help us to serve our Lord as faithfully as you did. In Jesus, we ask all this in your name. Amen. Amen. Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Pat Millea [01:07:19]:
Amen. Matt Birk, what a joy, man. Thanks so much for being here. This is super fun. Yeah. Thanks for being here, man. You can catch up with Matt Birk, on his website. We'll put a link in the show notes, and you can, track some of the good stuff that he's doing out there in the community.

Pat Millea [01:07:33]:
Again, encouragement to rate and review This Whole Life. You can follow us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com, on Facebook or Instagram @thiswholelifepodcast. And until next time, get out there, have a catch, and we'll see you next time.

Kenna Millea [01:07:52]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center for Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Pat Millea [01:08:12]:
Your best thirty seconds on Donovan Jackson so I can get a soundcheck.

Matt Birk [01:08:16]:
Yeah. I have no idea who Donovan Jackson is, but I think he was the best player on the board. Didn't necessarily draft for need. Right. Right. Right. Blah blah blah blah blah.

Kenna Millea [01:08:27]:
Did you not watch the draft?

Pat Millea [01:08:28]:
You're in favor of linemen getting drafted early, though.

Matt Birk [01:08:30]:
I'm absolutely in favor of

Matt Birk [01:08:31]:
linemen...