Ep82 Holy Sex part 1: The Great News About Sex

"I belong to my lover, and my lover belongs to me; he feeds among the lilies."
~ Song of Solomon 6:3

Why isn't my sex life going the way I hoped it would?
How do I talk to my spouse about sex after we've gotten into ruts?
Is it possible to have more sex and better sex in our marriage?

In Episode 82 of This Whole Life, Kenna is joined by Vonda Tiede, LMFT and Daniel Merboth to kick off a powerful three-part series on “Holy Sex” in marriage. Together, they dig deep into the “good news” about sex from a faith-filled, psychologically-informed perspective. Through candid conversations, the trio explores the prevalent myths and cultural lies surrounding sex, the harms of "obligation sex", and the importance of mutuality, communication, and healing within intimacy. They highlight how a couple’s sexual relationship reflects God’s creative genius and the need for curiosity and grace—not shame or rigid expectations. With personal stories, practical insights, and a compassionate challenge for listeners to reimagine intimacy, this episode offers hope, encouragement, and a fresh perspective on cultivating joy and connection in marriage. Whether you’re newly married, have been married for years, or want to better support holy marriages, this episode invites you to approach sexuality as a sacred gift of love.

Vonda Tiede is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in Minnesota. Vonda lives outside the Twin Cities of Minnesota with her husband, and together they have 6 children.

Daniel Merboth is currently pursuing a Masters in Marriage and Family Therapy degree at the University of Wisconsin-Stout. Daniel lives in Minnesota with his wife and two children.

Episode 82 Show Notes

Chapters:

0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
15:17: Falsehood about sex in marriage
26:21: The consequences of "obligation sex"
34:45: Moving from obligation sex to open communication
45:17: It's not just about an orgasm
1:01:50: Challenge By Choice

Reflection Questions:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. When and how did you learn to communicate about sex? What were you taught about conversations involving sex?
3. What falsehoods and obstacles keep spouses from being joyfully connected in their sex life?
4. What "great news" about sex did you draw from this episode?
5. How can you move toward greater connection and closeness in your emotional and sexual relationships with your spouse?

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 15:17 Falsehood about sex in marriage
• 26:21 The consequences of "obligation sex"
• 34:45 Moving from obligation sex to open communication
• 45:17 It's not just about an orgasm
• 1:01:50 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Vonda Tiede [00:00:00]:
God doesn't say this is a function to do. He says this is an opportunity for the intimate relationship that I have designed. And so that intimate relationship must be outside of sexuality in order for it to experience. For us to experience its fullness within sexuality.

Kenna Millea [00:00:24]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast. Along with my husband, Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician and leader, we invite you to our kitchen table. Okay, not literally, but you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having with once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes. We're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes. It's not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care. So let's get talking about This Whole life. Welcome back to This Whole Life.

Kenna Millea [00:01:19]:
It is such a great day to be with you all and such an incredible topic that we are breaking into actually in a three part series. And so I get to be the host today. Pat is out of town with our younger kids as we are trying to get this house sold. And I'm excited today because we have a voice, a face that is familiar to you, our listeners. Vonda Tiede welcome back. A licensed marriage and family therapist and a board approved supervisor and in private practice here in Minnesota, married to her love for 12 years and together they have six children in their blended family. And along with her today is one of her supervisees, Daniel Merboth. Welcome.

Kenna Millea [00:02:03]:
Daniel is pursuing his license in marriage and family therapy also here in Minnesota. Daniel's been married for five years and has one little one running around and another on the way. So thank you both for being here.

Vonda Tiede [00:02:16]:
Thank you, Kenna.

Kenna Millea [00:02:17]:
Yes.

Vonda Tiede [00:02:18]:
Great to be here.

Kenna Millea [00:02:19]:
Yes. Daniel, it's my first time getting to invite you onto the podcast as a colleague of Vonda's. I've gotten to know so much about your clinical work in marriage and family therapy. And so I am grateful for what I know is going to be an incredible episode of wisdom and insight and vulnerability and honesty. So thank you for your yes.

Daniel Merboth [00:02:36]:
Yeah, thank you so much. I'm really excited to do this. I was really surprised when Vonda reached out and said that, like, because this is something I've been listening to a couple of the podcasts myself and to then get to switch sides and get to be a part of it, it's really exciting.

Kenna Millea [00:02:51]:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, yes, as I referenced and as you've hopefully seen on the title of this episode, we are kicking off a three part series on sex within the context of marriage. And when Pat and I were talking about how do we even begin to dig into this vast, deep topic, like, it was, it was so overwhelming for me for so long, right? This whole life has existed now for three years. We're celebrating our three year anniversary right now. And I was like, how do we even begin to approach something that is so beautiful, that is so at the center of, of who we are as humans, Our, our sense of sexuality, our ability to participate in creation and to be united with each other in such a vulnerable, intimate way. So it took us a while to figure out how we were going to approach this and how. And it was so helpful, Vonda, when you and I started chatting to identify, like, what a first episode could be as we dive into this topic.

Kenna Millea [00:03:49]:
So today we're talking about, like, the great news about sex, like the things that bring us joy and bring us hope and how we can know that God really is present with us in, within ourselves and within our marriages, in our sexual lives together. The next episode, we will talk about arousal styles and differences with another marriage and family therapist, Trisha McKeever. And then in our third episode, we will talk about natural family planning and a lot of the challenges that are present to couples as they really participate with the Lord in the spacing and the timing of the births of their children. So before I go any more into, yeah, all the good stuff here today, we're going to start, as we usually do, with highs and hards, just to hear a little bit about life lately. Daniel, particularly for you to, to let our listeners get to know you. Vonda they're being reacquainted with you after like two years, I think, since you were last on the podcast. So, Daniel, would you be up first for us? Highs and hards of life lately?

Daniel Merboth [00:04:54]:
Yeah, well, as I was thinking about it and I was reflecting over the summer, the thing that's kind of been the high for me recently has been a lot of friendships that I have invested in for a ton of time, like so many years. Some of them since I was a child, some of them the last, like five years. Just so much investment that there have been moments where my wife was like, is this too much? Like, are you saying no to too many things so you can prize this friendship? And I would always be like, I don't think so. Like, Think this is that important to me. And I want it to be strong enough to survive hard things. And those friendships, a lot of those are like really hard right now. Friends move away or life just happens and people get jobs in different places or whatever and timing changes. And I'm on the receiving end now of an incredible amount of effort from friends fighting for these friendships, being willing to drive long distances, being willing to set aside time for both the fun connecting and the deep connecting that are the things that make friendships worthwhile.

Daniel Merboth [00:06:00]:
Where you just enjoy life together, but also you get into really meaningful times very. Maybe not quickly, but like, you're quick to share things that matter to you and even. Even when there's space between visits and stuff. And I'm just seeing that happen this summer in a way that is just really filling to me. So that's been the high recently and the hard, I think has been as I'm like building my career and building my family. We've got our second on, on, on her way. And as. As all of that's happening and there's so many different pieces that just come up in life, like car troubles or whatever it may be.

Daniel Merboth [00:06:42]:
Just finding a balance in all of that is challenging. But I think what I've been struggling more with, that's been kind of the hard piece is my view of self in all of it. Because I want to be a, like, put together professional. I want to have everything together all the time. And when I don't, it's really challenging, but it's a good challenge. It's a challenge I want to wrestle through, but also, like, there are days when I don't want to wrestle through it at all. And I think that's been the hard this summer has been wishing that I was more put together than I am a lot of days.

Kenna Millea [00:07:14]:
Yeah. Yeah. When we're confronted with that poverty that we've been able to like, push to the edge. Push to the edge. And then it's just front and center, like you said, with a car trouble. And then I'm late for my appointment or whatever. Yeah. And it's like, oh, that's a severe mercy.

Kenna Millea [00:07:28]:
Bring me back to you, Lord. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. Vonda.

Vonda Tiede [00:07:34]:
My high is a family vacation. We just had out to California, to Yosemite. And it was my husband and I and our. Our six adult kids and having all of us together, you know, all of our adult kids are on their own now. And so for us to all be together had a lot of joy and a particular moment that doesn't really have to do with the family was my high that I'll share today. We came up to beautiful vista of God's creation of mountains and trees and all of the things. And we had gotten off the bus that took us there and were coming up to take in the view. And my husband pointed out to me a couple that appeared to be getting engaged with this beautiful scenery behind.

Vonda Tiede [00:08:22]:
And the. The man had chosen a spot that isn't as traveled. And so they were kind of tucked away. And he goes, oh, look, I think he's proposing. And it was just very beautiful to see. But for me, because I just get so excited about things like this. I didn't see any photographers or anybody around them, so I quickly started taking pictures. And I stayed out of their space and let them have their moment, of course.

Vonda Tiede [00:08:47]:
But toward the end, then the. The man looked over and he realized I was standing there. I'm like, hi, I've been taking pictures. And they were just so overjoyed that I was able to capture that for.

Kenna Millea [00:09:00]:
And I.

Vonda Tiede [00:09:00]:
They're certainly not professional, but you don't need much with the beauty of Yosemite behind you. But they were just so thrilled, and I just loved getting to give them that gift. It just brings me so much joy still to think of that, that I could just be there and do it and, you know, text them those pictures.

Kenna Millea [00:09:20]:
So well, what a testament to how our marriages are not for ourselves. Like the fact that you could get joy from these strangers.

Vonda Tiede [00:09:27]:
Oh, my goodness, engaged and, like, you.

Kenna Millea [00:09:29]:
Know, beginning to dream about their life together. Like, testament.

Vonda Tiede [00:09:32]:
It was. Yeah. So lovely. So lovely. I felt really privileged. And I know some people would have said, well, I didn't want to bother them, but I'm like, I. I'm getting in there. I don't see anybody else doing this, so I gotta do it.

Vonda Tiede [00:09:45]:
So that was my high. My hard was in this Last week, I got really sick. And I was sick for three days. And sick is certainly never fun, no matter what's going on. But I really kind of took a dive emotionally, too, and even a little bit spiritually, where I felt really discouraged. I wouldn't say hopeless, but just very, very discouraged. And I started to spin about some things, and I was really having a hard time getting my feet under me. I was using my skills and breathing and listening to music and prayer and, you know, all of these things.

Vonda Tiede [00:10:22]:
But it felt like not just a physical struggle, but an emotional and spiritual struggle. And so it was really hard. And praise God, from whom all blessings flow. I'm on the other side of it now, and I can also enjoy being healthy again. Well, not a hundred percent emotionally and spiritually healthy, obviously, but physically healthy and moving back into a place of regulation, so. But rough. A rough few days.

Kenna Millea [00:10:52]:
Yeah. I think maybe my hard is. Is similar in that I was sharing with you guys that we've just listed our house today for sale. We are. An offer has been accepted by. Our offer has been accepted for a home back in the town where we were before we moved two years ago that we're going back to. And so it's exciting, but the pressure is immense because we probably only have a few weeks at most to sell our house. And so a lot of questions, you know, around how competitive are we going to price it and how aggressive are we going to be as the seller and all these things.

Kenna Millea [00:11:29]:
So, anyway, I would say my hard has been just the. The roller coaster, right? Which is such an indication of, like, the fact that in the busyness, I really have not been anchored in the Lord, like, as much as I. I could and want to be. Because one moment I'm like, we got this. It's gonna be fine. It's gonna. Our house is great. And the next minute I'm like, look at all this inventory in Cottage Grove.

Kenna Millea [00:11:48]:
Like, no. What's gonna make our house stand out? You know, just back and forth and riding the. The highs and the lows. So that has been the hard of just how exhausting it is to just emotionally go there, you know, up, down, and all around again and again and again. So that's that. And hopefully by the time this airs, we will have some kind of clarity one way or another. That is. That is the thing when, like, something is so exhausting is you're kind of like, what? However it goes, I just want it to be done.

Vonda Tiede [00:12:17]:
Sure, absolutely.

Kenna Millea [00:12:21]:
My high is that our oldest two went to Extreme Faith Camp, which is a diocesan camp, an archdiocesan camp. Kids from the youth groups in, like, a geographic area go together to a camp to make a big camp. Middle schoolers are the campers. The high schoolers, college young adult are the small group leaders, prayer leaders, all that jazz. And we got an email yesterday from the youth minister, like, leadership team that they were sharing the Spotify playlist that they had used all during camp. And so I downloaded it, and last night, our oldest two are with me because they have some commitments this weekend that we're staying in town for. And they were just rocking out to this music. I mean, just especially our son who Like, I didn't know that he appreciated this kind of music.

Kenna Millea [00:13:15]:
Just singing every word while we're scrubbing the house and vacuuming and all this stuff. It was so, so stinking fun. And it's that thing too, where you have to like be cool as a mod. Like, you cannot make a big deal out of it. Like to a 12 year old boy, like, you have to be like, oh, oh, you like that? I kind of like that song too. Like, you know, you just really well played, well played. So like, be chill, be chill. So that was super sweet.

Kenna Millea [00:13:40]:
And I'm so grateful to have this like new repertoire to enjoy with him because I was loving the music. Yeah, I'll share with you.

Vonda Tiede [00:13:47]:
I would love to hear.

Kenna Millea [00:13:48]:
It's got some oldies and some newbies. You know, Forrest Frank, he's, he's the jam these days. So anyways, so yeah, that was, that was definitely a high for me. Okay, so thank you both for being here. And while we were off air, we were talking about like, do your spouses even know, like what you're here to talk about? And not that we're gonna like, this isn't about dishing on each other's spouses and secrets and all that stuff, but this is so intimate, right? Any way you come at this topic, there's a sense of like, oh, like I've got to be even more thoughtful about how I speak about this because this is sacred. Like, we know that inherently, you know, from when we're little, like we, we know this, we sense this. And so with that in mind, you know, for all of us here in this conversation, listeners of this interview, I want to invite you to, you know, begin at maybe a 30,000 foot view on this topic, to really step out and look down upon and have this, yeah, maybe a more process, focus, approach to begin with, of considering what each of us bring to a conversation about sex. You know, what do we bring from our own families of origin, from our own cultures on how sex was talked about or not talked about, from our own faith backgrounds, religious upbringings, how scripture and catechism and all of that tied into our formation, on what sex is intended for, how we participate in it, and just our own experiences.

Kenna Millea [00:15:28]:
I mean, that is a wealth in and of itself. And so just to give us all a moment to kind of take a breath and be aware of the fact that we come with something to a conversation like this and whatever that is, however you feel about that, that acknowledging that from the get go is just, you're already three steps into the into the process and you're already ahead of the game just to acknowledge that we bring stuff here. So Vonda and Daniel, I'm going to open it up and with that, start with what we've decided on. You know, is the general theme of this episode, which is the good news. I think in this culture, particularly with the. The growing hold that social media and media have on all of us, there isn't always great news being proclaimed about sex. And so just.

Vonda Tiede [00:16:30]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:16:30]:
Where do you want us to begin today to think about this and to consider that there is so much good news and it may be new news for some of us, even as churched, as catechized, as well intentioned as we've been.

Vonda Tiede [00:16:43]:
Yeah. As you know, Kenna, I'm just so passionate and Daniel, you do too, about this topic. And when I think about what the good news is, I think we have to start with what isn't true about the bad news. Maybe we could. Because you've summarized it well, kind of we come in with ideas and influences and education. And as much as Christians as we want to have a biblical view of sex, a godly view of, of all that he has created it to be, we are influenced by culture, by our friends, by our own experiences, by what we read. And so we have these beliefs that are not true coming into it, that sometimes we've kind of sanctified ourselves without any backing. And I want to highlight a few of those.

Vonda Tiede [00:17:32]:
One of those is that all men have a higher libido than women. And that is not supported by research. There's a few different sources that, that I have found, actually more than a few, but that support that there are a lot of women that have a higher libido than men in a marriage. And so when we go into marriage thinking that automatically we're setting ourselves up for, well, this is how it's going to be in my marriage. Another one of those lies is that only men or all men struggle with lust and inappropriately viewing the sexual relationship. That that is also not true and also not research supported. Many women also struggle with pornography with some of these themes that we have historically thought are only about men. We've also heard that frequency is the most important thing.

Vonda Tiede [00:18:28]:
Okay, that is also not research supported. That that is what we're looking for to have a good sex life. So when we go into it with these lies, then we don't get to hear the good news right away because those set up a sense of failure already because we have these things against us. And the good News is we have a creative God. And as Christians, we should be able to write the book on this more than anyone else, because we serve a God that created this. And it isn't about two people coming into a marriage and both of them having this recipe or a to do list or an exacting way of how this is going to go. This is about two people coming and bringing themselves and being open to what those two people will create and how that will be different than anybody else. Certainly a lot of the same features, but different in how we experience together.

Vonda Tiede [00:19:27]:
And there's an opportunity to create something really wonderful.

Kenna Millea [00:19:31]:
Yeah, I. I love how you are really grounding this in the truth of who God is. Right. If we are made in the image and likeness of God, if it's him from. From whom our dignity comes, then. So it is with our sex life that. That the. The dignity, the sanctity, the beauty, the value of our sex life comes because we reflect his creative goodness.

Vonda Tiede [00:19:50]:
Absolutely.

Kenna Millea [00:19:51]:
Genius. And. And what you're. Yeah, I'm thinking about how comparison is such a killer of. Of goodness and beauty, because in comparison to that over there, like, how do I even hold a candle? And so with our sex lives as well, to. Wow. There's a much broader spectrum of what is good and what is wanted and desirable than maybe the narratives that exist out there, the boxes that we try to put ourselves or others into.

Vonda Tiede [00:20:22]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:20:23]:
Yeah. Yeah. Other opening thoughts from you, Daniel, about this good news that we're cracking open today.

Daniel Merboth [00:20:29]:
Yeah, I just kind of was thinking about how, like, sales and things, we use sex as a way to, like, sex sells that concept that we use it to sell things, we use it to. To communicate value. And when we, when we adopt that concept that our value is tied to sexuality in some way, then we apply that often within sex and marriage as well. And we think that we have to be a certain way to be good enough because we're. We're measuring sex and value together. We're kind of trying to continue that concept into our intermarriage. And it doesn't. The good news is it isn't about our worth.

Daniel Merboth [00:21:07]:
Like, sex is a beautiful place for connection. It's a beautiful place for. For like increasing the family, like all of these beautiful elements. But it isn't where our worth comes from. When you said, like, our dignity comes from our. Our. The fact that we're image bearers like that is. That just is so true and so profound.

Daniel Merboth [00:21:29]:
And when we talk about sex, I think part of why it's such a big like conversation. And so difficult is because we so easily wrap it into identity. We see that in, in so many different formats, whether, whether it's through labeling ourselves in certain ways based on sexuality in some way, or whether that's through just like, belief of if we're good enough or not, which is still an identity question. But when we can remove that from the equation and we can recognize that that's not what we're negotiating when we talk about sex, when we figure out what we want sex to look like within our marriage, we're not talking about worth. When we can take that away, there's an incredible freedom that comes in to engage in that conversation with a, with like, less potential for harm. Like, when we recognize that our worth isn't on the table, then we can talk about this conversation a lot more freely and a lot more openly because we know that we're not going to be put to shame if we don't agree with something or if we don't like something or we don't do something a certain way because it's not about our worth.

Kenna Millea [00:22:36]:
So can I ask, because both of you are in practicing marriage and family therapy like I am. Right. And so in your work with clients, maybe Daniel I'll piggyback on what you just said. Do you find that that is something that is really underlying the quote presenting problem of we need help with our sex life? That really, as you unpack that sex is really may difficulties connecting, difficulties feeling pleasure or satisfied with sex. It's really rooted in this much more core foundational question of, gosh, what am I trying to use sex for? Like, I couldn't have maybe even articulated that I was doing that as the spouse coming in. But. But yeah, as we dig in, we can find like, oh, actually we were expecting a whole lot than was reasonable and appropriate from the sexual relationship.

Daniel Merboth [00:23:28]:
Yeah, I think so. I think a lot of times we look to sex as something that's going to satisfy a lot of different elements, but specifically like our, our love need. And I think especially possibly men have been told that that's where they're supposed to find their satisfaction. And part of what when Vonda and I were just talking about this concept prior to the starting this, we were just like talking about how there are way fewer differences between men and women when it comes to sex than I think a lot of us have been educated to believe. And, and that sex, while it can be a place of connection, is not capable of fully satisfying your love needs. And so when we come to it with a desire for Identification or a desire for like, fulfillment in our love life. It's not able to be those things. It can, it can contribute, it can play a role in all of that, but it's not able to satisfy those.

Daniel Merboth [00:24:27]:
And I think those are the two things that I see the most when I'm working with people, is that they'll come in and that when they're dissatisfied with something about their sex life, the two things that I see the most common commonly would be a fear that they're not good enough. And that's why something they're like, that's why that, that's why there's dissatisfaction in their sex life, because in some way they're not good enough. And the other would be that if they could sort their sex life out, that they would have enough love in their marriage that everything would be sorted out. And that the reason that they don't feel loved in the way that they want to in their marriage is because there's something wrong with their sex life.

Vonda Tiede [00:25:03]:
Sometimes that can end up leading to obligation sex. And so what we end up having is we come into the marriage, as we talked about at the beginning here of having these expectations that this is. Is how it is supposed to be. This formula for this being good. This is going to fulfill my need for feeling worthy. This is going to fulfill my all my need for feeling truly loved, deeply loved. And because those things aren't true, then we end up in some obligation sex situations where. And it's not really unitive at that point because one person is saying I need this to feel worthy or good enough, or whether it's good enough for you or whether it's to know that I'm meeting a need you have, so I have to have sex with you, even if I'm not even giving myself the time to explore what do I enjoy, what makes me feel satisfied in our relationship sexually.

Vonda Tiede [00:26:00]:
And so some of the research that I have been reading lately is really has some great things to. To say about this. And I'll have to put my glasses on because that's where I'm at in my life right now. But it's so much more than in the bedroom because as we feel more connected outside of the bedroom, we'll feel more connected within that. Of course we know that. But a few of the things women are 18.6 times more likely to say that they could take it or leave it when obligation sex is part of their Life, they are 3.6 times less likely to believe that their opinions are just as important as Their husband's.

Kenna Millea [00:26:48]:
So it's more than just sex. This is.

Vonda Tiede [00:26:50]:
Yes. So it makes. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:26:51]:
So the idea that. Could we go back maybe and can you give a bit of a definition on like obligation?

Vonda Tiede [00:26:56]:
Like, so you mean by that obligation sex is when it's one partner saying, I need this or I want it now. And so because you are the only way for me to get that, I can't go anywhere else for this. You must do it now or when I need it or want it, which.

Kenna Millea [00:27:13]:
I will say, you know, particularly working with clients where pornography has been a real source of betrayal and hurt in the marriage, that then for the partner to go, oh, my gosh, so if I don't do this for you.

Vonda Tiede [00:27:26]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:27:26]:
Then am I culpable for the fact that you are going to turn to other means to get yourself satisfied? You're going to masturbate, you're going to sin. Right, like.

Vonda Tiede [00:27:34]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:27:35]:
So, so to, to, to be clear that we're saying not only does that have a detrimental effect on the actual sexual relationship, but that, that really filters out into other areas of the marriage as well.

Vonda Tiede [00:27:49]:
Yes. Yes. So when that is happening, a couple other statistics, if I can share, please. Women are 1.8 times more likely to experience vaginism, painful sex when obligation sex is part of their marriage. Women who believe that their voice matters in the marriage are nine times more likely to be satisfied with their amount of closeness.

Kenna Millea [00:28:18]:
And so again, we're talking about voice matters, not just about, not just in the sexual relationship, but just getting to create a life together.

Vonda Tiede [00:28:27]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:28:28]:
And my opinion on that.

Vonda Tiede [00:28:29]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:28:29]:
Yeah.

Vonda Tiede [00:28:30]:
And so when you're, when you're thinking about the mutuality and if we look at Song of Solomon, we can see just so much mutuality and creativity and excitement and like almost brainstorming of how do we connect sexually and how it involves all the senses, it just kind of blows it up about how that is the design and that's the good news of it. But then again, we've, we have decreased that because of some of these beliefs that if my partner needs this right now or says they need it or says they want it or says it what. It's only, it's what makes them feel loved or it's what makes them feel worthy. And I'm the only source of that, I have to do it. And it, it just kills all of the goodness that God has said. Here is this beautiful thing to work on. Together, to get excited about together in a mutual situation.

Kenna Millea [00:29:27]:
Yeah, I, I don't want to turn this into a whole episode on obligation sex. But I am curious, like, how do you even begin to work with couples where that has been their pattern, right? Maybe their whole marriage that has been the way that this relationship has unfolded. How do you even begin to invite them to see what you're describing, to believe that it's possible for the spouse who has just been there under, you know, under obligation, maybe has just resigned him or herself to the fact of, like, yeah, I'm just never going to enjoy this. How do we begin to unpack that?

Daniel Merboth [00:30:07]:
One of the things that there's. There's multiple pieces to it, but one of the pieces that I've read some research on is that there's more problems with this for people who go to church. So part of what ends up happening and what we see, like, as the cause of that is misinterpretation of scripture and a belief that kind of this creation of obligation sex is sometimes correlated with, like, misinterpreting scripture, thinking that we, like, have to say yes to sex every single time the other person is in the mood. No matter what is going on in our life, no matter, like, what we've just gotten through, if we're tired, if we're whatever, like, we. This belief that we just always have to say yes. And so part of it is kind of learning to, like, understand that when the scripture talks about not denying your partner sex, like, except for the case of prayer, that that's not necessarily referring to any individual instance, but more in terms of like, say like. Like, if you were to say, like, absolutely no sex at any point in the future, that would be, I think, more where we'd run into an issue with scripture, but where you might say, like, hey, not right now. Like, we can talk about another time when I work, but, like, right now I'm coming off of an exhausting week or whatever that I think learning to, like, read with a little bit more nuance and understand that there are exceptions where we're going to be.

Daniel Merboth [00:31:33]:
Where we're going to be tired. We see. We see that, you know, couples that have that kind of flexibility to have those conversations with each other often are able to kind of avoid some of the struggles. So I think part of it would be looking at, like, what are the motivations, what are the beliefs that kind of cause the obligation sex. Often some of the work that I'll do with these people, though, is also working on learning to receive love and other elements of the relationship. Because part of what creates the obligation sex is sometimes if the partner believes that that's their only route to see to feeling close. Then they will feel rejected anytime the per the other their partner says no. And so if they always experience severe rejection then they're going to respond and hurt.

Daniel Merboth [00:32:15]:
They're going to respond maybe by distancing or whatever. And so it kind of perpetuates the cycle. And so when you're working with a couple, you want to work with both parts of it. The person who believes that they're obligated to sex and the person who believes that they can only receive that kind of intimacy, that kind of connection in the relationship through sexual.

Kenna Millea [00:32:33]:
Yeah, I was. The image that popped into my head was like, like a four lane highway and that's like the only way to get to the other town. And so when there's traffic there, I'm super frustrated and I'm like dad gone it, you know, I've got, I've got no other options versus maybe lots of side streets and other vessels and ways to get to the other town. Other creative avenues that I can, I can go here and this and, and it's different and, and it takes more, yeah Creativity, more flexibility. What have you to get over. Want that we know that's part of what makes a human flourish too is to be able to be flexible, to be able to respond to the realities of life and like the stressors and the changes that come with that life. And you bring up a really another point to Daniel which is. And Vonda, you were talking about it, which is communication.

Kenna Millea [00:33:26]:
Like what you describe the difference between a couple where obligation sex is prevailing and a couple where maybe they're moving out of that dynamic is to communicate, to be able to say I'm tired and for that to be received or for the other to say I need us to find other ways where I can feel loved or feel connected to you. So yeah, can you guys speak a bit to communication, the importance of, of that even before we talk about being in bed together?

Vonda Tiede [00:33:53]:
Yeah.

Daniel Merboth [00:33:54]:
One of the things that I will work with couples on is when your partner makes a request, any kind of request, whether it's sexual or otherwise, if you're going to say no. And I recommend to couples, absolutely there are times to say no. They're like, I like the like 80, 20 rule. Like say yes as you know as much as you can. Like up to like 80%. But it's just not realistic that you always say yes to everything including sex. So like 20% of the time you just can't. Like there's just reasons you're not going to be able to reasonably say yes and say, say no.

Daniel Merboth [00:34:21]:
But in those 20%, in order for it to not feel like the partner is being rejected, like to help them with the experience of not being rejected, which is still their responsibility to deal with. Right. But in order to be their partner, in order to help them with that, if you can communicate to them that it matters to you. Like, if my wife comes to me and says she wants to have sex and I'm going to say no, if I can tell her, I would love to have sex with you another time, right now, I'm not interested in it because. And I can give her a reason or something, like, because I'm tired, because I'm. Whatever. If I can do that, I've softened the no. And I've invited her to experience intimacy by knowing what's going on in my head.

Daniel Merboth [00:34:59]:
Right. She's still getting an intimate experience of knowing me more. She knows why I'm saying no. She knows that I still desire sex with her and. But that I'm, you know, I'm going to want to put that off until the next day or whatever it may be.

Kenna Millea [00:35:11]:
I mean, also, I'm thinking about how we've used a lot of, like, physical, you know, these physical impediments to. To being able to be present to sex with our spouse, but also, like, emotionally, like, there are times when, you know, Pat has no idea that I'm upset about something with him, you know, because we've been busy throughout the day. We. Whatever, whatever. And then it's nighttime and he's like, hey. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, we got some stuff to clear up here. And, and how communication also really serves us to be, I don't know, like, accountable to.

Vonda Tiede [00:35:43]:
Sure.

Kenna Millea [00:35:44]:
To being honest about where we're at and not dismissing, denying, ignoring, and building resentments. I guess is what I was thinking about too, that communication is huge around sex for so much more than just sex itself.

Vonda Tiede [00:35:58]:
Yeah. Well, coming back to the obligation sex and working with couples around that, I don't think I've ever worked with a couple where the person that had a higher libido was like, yeah, I don't care that my partner really doesn't want to. They want their partner to want to. The obligation comes in sometimes where it's like, well, they act like they're in the mood or whatever, but the, the one partner usually, or in my experience has never been truly unkind, evil, you know, like, yeah, it's like, well, she's not in the Mood, but I need it. So we're doing it, or what have you. And so when, when that kind of. When we know that we desire to be mutual, we want it to be mutual. Often it's been, but.

Vonda Tiede [00:36:46]:
But she or he just doesn't ever want to or not as much, then I say, okay, let's, let's pull back. We know we have the same goal. We both want to be able to enter into this fully, emotionally, physically, in every way. Let's figure out why that's happening. Let's get to the 30, 000ft so we can talk about it. What's getting in the way for you? What isn't pleasurable? Are you experiencing pain? Are you worried about something? Is there something between us we haven't talked about? And that's where we can get more creative together. God doesn't say this is a function to do. He says, this is an opportunity for the intimate relationship that I have designed.

Vonda Tiede [00:37:31]:
And so that intimate relationship must be outside of sexuality in order for it to experience. For us to experience its fullness within sexuality. So when we can start with, all right, guys, we both have the same goal. There's a lot of ways to get there. But let's get curious. What would make this different? And it's not just what would make this different because I would touch you in this way. It's, let's get way beyond that. Like, do you feel heard by me outside of sex? Do you care about my opinion? Are we sharing the mental load of our household? Are, you know, so many other things? Like what? Let's get curious about what's in the way so we can be creative about the solution and not just we just need to have sex more.

Vonda Tiede [00:38:22]:
We should try this other position. Well, I heard my friend said this is a better way of natural family planning, because she did that. Okay, let's, let's, let's do away with that.

Kenna Millea [00:38:33]:
Yeah. I mean, in that way, you're saying, like, sex can really contribute to a healthy, strong, thriving marriage.

Vonda Tiede [00:38:42]:
Absolutely right.

Kenna Millea [00:38:43]:
That sometimes I'll, you know, Pat and I will talk about, like, it's a symptom of strong connection as well, but also in this cyclical way, like, it feeds back into and supports it. Because in order to have that mutuality Vonda. That you've been talking about, it's going to necessitate that a lot of other things are really healthy and in order as well. Yes, something. When Pat and I were talking about this series, one of the things that we were reflecting on is, like, it really honestly took us where. What are we. We just celebrated our 16th anniversary. Like it really took us about 10 years to really get to this place of comfort of talking about all the things that you guys have mentioned.

Kenna Millea [00:39:24]:
Everything from the very technical like physical of like this. This is good to me. This makes me feel loved. This makes me feel beautiful. This makes me feel, you know, wanted down to all the emotional pieces and the, the skills and the maturity and the trust in the strength of the marriage to be able to bring up hard things.

Vonda Tiede [00:39:43]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:39:43]:
So that we can be present. Like, I think that's something else too that as a young bride, you know, it's in my mid to. Pat and I were like mid to late 20s when we got married and, and I think we, I know we expected that sex was going to be this thing that fixed a lot of the space between us and how disappointing it was when it complicated things for a really long time. And we were just like, what? Like, you know, and, and so I think because, you know, for, for many couples who are desiring to be chaste and to abstain before marriage, it's like, okay, finally the green light. Like nothing hold held back. And it's like, actually this is harder in certain respects. Like this is calling us to a new level of communication into being self aware and then conveying that to the other. So just thinking about.

Kenna Millea [00:40:30]:
Yeah, again in, in your own experiences clinically and in your ministries, in your churches, like how you are helping particularly those young couples who are maybe feeling so disenchanted with like how they thought this was going to be and the challenges they're finding, like how do we encourage, how do we give hope in the midst of that? Where can they begin?

Vonda Tiede [00:40:53]:
One of the things that is the tricky part of the biblical and holy choice of being chaste before marriage is that we often haven't given our bodies time to learn how we become aroused. And I know that is your next episode with Trisha McKeever, but it's like, don't do anything. Don't do anything. Don't do anything. And then one night it's all systems go.

Kenna Millea [00:41:19]:
And it's supposed to be like a movie.

Vonda Tiede [00:41:20]:
And it's supposed to be amazing. And it's you because you were chased. God will bless and you will have, you know, multiple orgasms together at the exact same time. And there will be rainbows throughout the room and it will be just like this spiritual Mecca of happiness or something. Right. And so I like to encourage people to take that slow. And however you choose to do that, that's up to each couple in their own creativity. But be curious and slow and quiet in a sense about how is this going to look for us? What do I like? I might not even like the things I thought I was going to like that I've been thinking about.

Vonda Tiede [00:42:01]:
Like, of course I've been thinking about, what is this going to be like, Right? And so we need to take that slower and we need to change the expectation. And so this is where the conversations about, what do I like? Like, what am I finding I really like? And that means it's very vulnerable when we're doing that the next day or a couple days later or even a week later to share those things of what do I like or not like? And that can even be things that aren't, like, inherently sexual. Like, I did not know before my husband did it. Don't worry anybody here that I really. It is a biggest turnoff in the world for me to be kissed on the chin. Okay? So I don't know why, but he did it. And I'm like, please never do that again. He's like, what happened? This wasn't even that.

Vonda Tiede [00:42:54]:
This wasn't even supposed to be sexual or anything, but I don't know. Not a big. I don't need to go to therapy to figure it out. It's not. He just can stop doing it, and that's fine. But there are so many things that you don't know how your body's going to respond. And you may have had, you know, even some level of. Of, you know, sexuality with somebody besides your spouse, and something with that person you enjoyed.

Vonda Tiede [00:43:20]:
It might be different with your spouse. That doesn't mean something's wrong with your spouse. It doesn't mean something's wrong with you. It means this unique blend of people. This. This beautiful, unique blend of people that God is blessing in this new marriage is. Has something different. And so we need to let people slow down.

Vonda Tiede [00:43:41]:
And if we don't have intercourse, night one, is that the worst thing in the world? Can we. And I'm not saying don't. So some people are turning off the podcast, but let's. Let's give it some time, right? Let's give it some space.

Daniel Merboth [00:43:59]:
One of the other things that I think about with, like, what. What we need to do to kind of pull back the pressure on some of those, not just at the beginning, but throughout sex ongoing, is kind of like recognizing that the joy of sex isn't purely an orgasm. Like, that's not. It's not the absolute goal of. Of sex, that we just, like, get to orgasm and then we're so happy. Like, there are other elements about sex that are very satisfying. I've worked with people before when we would. We would talk about, like, what.

Daniel Merboth [00:44:35]:
What were the highlights? Like, what. What's the joy of sex to you? And there was an individual I worked with who. Who said that the, like, five minutes of cuddling after sex were super important. That if that didn't happen, this person would notice, like, less sexual satisfaction. And even if orgasm didn't occur for her, but she got to have that. That five minutes of cuddling, like, sometimes that was good enough. Like, sometimes that was where she'd find joy. And that doesn't mean we don't want to have an orgasm.

Daniel Merboth [00:45:07]:
Those are. Those are, like, part of the goal, but they're not the entirety of the goal of sex. That there are other pieces to the sexual experience, to the unity, that you have insects that you're striving for in that connection. There are other pieces that are part of what make it satisfying.

Kenna Millea [00:45:23]:
Well, and I think, Daniel, you're really touching on again, kind of where we started. Vonda. Like, what do we come with? This belief, this lie that the orgasm is the ultimate. Right. Missing the sense of intimacy that happens along the way. For me, a huge piece of what I enjoy about sexual is the way that Pat helps me really disengage from the mental load. Like, for me to be able to be present to him physically, sexually. Like, I.

Kenna Millea [00:45:51]:
I always warn him. I'm like, today was a really busy day. Like, right. It's gonna take me a little bit to, like, get there, like, talk to me, help me kind of put this. Contain it on the side.

Vonda Tiede [00:45:59]:
Sure.

Kenna Millea [00:46:00]:
And so in. In thinking about that again, of what we, you know, bring with us of our expectations and. And even to the point of lies. I'm also thinking about some of the ways that we have been hurt by that. Really wounded by some of the formation, the information, even, like, the being churched, being taught. I think around chastity, around choices of not choosing chastity in relationships before marriage. And so just wondering. Yeah, Daniel, if you want to speak to that about where do we begin as people of faith? Like, where do we begin so that we can be present without shame to our spouse.

Vonda Tiede [00:46:38]:
Yes.

Daniel Merboth [00:46:39]:
Yeah. I think sometimes when we. When we elevate something that is desirable, what we sometimes don't realize we're doing is we're often kind of putting down the alternative. And I do love the. The the pursuit of chastity until marriage, I think that's a worthwhile pursuit. But when we rec. When we believe that that is going to lead to a better sex life and that God is going to bless that, that we sort of recognize then that he or we sort of might believe then that he's not going to believe.

Kenna Millea [00:47:07]:
Yeah, this implicit statement.

Daniel Merboth [00:47:08]:
Yeah, this implicit statement that he won't bless the sex lives of people who have entered a marriage where they weren't chaste beforehand. And I just. I want to challenge that. I think that's. That is one of those lies. That's. That doesn't recognize the redemptive nature of our God. That is like the central piece of our belief is in this redemption, that he takes our sin as far as the east is from the west, which is the most absolute separation, and that he is a God of renewal and of making things, like, pure.

Kenna Millea [00:47:40]:
Yeah.

Daniel Merboth [00:47:41]:
And if we believe he can do that to the point of us having unity with him, then he can absolutely do that to the point where we can have unity with our partner.

Vonda Tiede [00:47:48]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Kenna Millea [00:47:49]:
Yeah.

Vonda Tiede [00:47:50]:
That. There's some literature in some books that talk about how everybody that you've been intimate with, you carry a piece of them with you or you have a soul tie with them or even like a physical tie. There's some really poorly researched material out there with that and that it's a. It's very hard to take the shame out of that and that. That it's just not true. More current researches and more excellent research, you know, shows very different things. And there isn't something to really support that you're literally carrying with you in your body everybody that you've kissed. And I think, you know, I love what.

Vonda Tiede [00:48:33]:
What Daniel's saying there. Like, if we believe that God is forgiving our sins and forgiving, you know, all of us, why do we put sexuality in this other camp? Like, well, that's not quite as forgivable because, you know, now you're, you know, you've given yourself to somebody and whatever, you know, on the continuum of sexual engagement would be. And it's just really putting. Taking away God's power, which we're not really allowed to do, as far as I know. So I just, I. I think of us coming into, you know, a marriage saying, you know, this is who I am. I am broken. I mean, all of us are broken in so many ways.

Vonda Tiede [00:49:20]:
And if we're going to start measuring that, we need to do it on a whole lot of other. A lot of other scales than Just sexuality, which I'm not interested in doing, by the way. But we've put it in this category of. Of something that I don't think it is.

Kenna Millea [00:49:35]:
Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. Right. In a sense, we have. We have removed sex from its rightful, honorable place in certain ways, and we have elevated it and put it on this pedestal above all things when it comes to, like, moral judgment.

Vonda Tiede [00:49:54]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:49:55]:
In other ways, it's an odd thing what we have done as a culture. Yeah, but, but, but somehow we're holding those. Those two seeming opposites.

Vonda Tiede [00:50:03]:
Yeah. It's quite the dichotomy.

Kenna Millea [00:50:05]:
Yeah.

Vonda Tiede [00:50:06]:
And then when you spiritualize it. Holy smokes, that comes with that. Or the pride, the very unhealthy pride that comes with that. And I think too, then if we believe, well, I have been chased and I've done all the rules or whatever, and now I'm getting married. And now our sex life isn't good. It. We can blame our spouse. Maybe they kissed more people.

Vonda Tiede [00:50:31]:
Oh, well, they weren't as. Maybe God's not blessing. I mean, we can put all these meanings that are not fair and not right. It also will prevent us from seeking help. Boy, I could get on a tangent here. Go for it. I, you know, I've. I've had couples where eventually somebody finally is like, okay, we have to get some help.

Vonda Tiede [00:50:53]:
And 10 years ago, we could have done this quicker. Like, great, I'm so glad you're here today. But there was so much shame in asking for help because they're like, no, it is supposed to be this way. This is what I was taught. Or, but we didn't have sex before we were married. But this. But this. So we must be doing something wrong.

Vonda Tiede [00:51:11]:
Sometimes it's help from a doctor, sometimes it's help from a spiritual director. Sometimes it is from a licensed therapist. Right. And so then we take, you know, we make even getting help shameful, which is completely contrary to the word of God. So it's. It really gets quite tangled.

Kenna Millea [00:51:28]:
Yeah, yeah. That. I didn't think about it that way before, but as I'm kind of just running through the Rolodex of my professional experience, the pairing of one who was, quote, chaste in a marriage, like, prior to marriage, and then the spouse who was not. And how the load that is so often carried by the one who was not, of, gosh, I'm just, Just always man down. Like, I'm just always in this lower position. That's. That's actually pretty prevalent, at least in folks that I have seen. Yes, and it is so harmful.

Kenna Millea [00:52:06]:
I mean, in so many, like we've talked about many times here, not just in sex, but in really this sense of resentment or superiority that can happen and just this lack of. Of partnership and sense of being on the same playing field with your spouse.

Daniel Merboth [00:52:23]:
I had a. An individual I worked with that was wrestling through that. And in their. In their process of working through, like, okay, so my partner was chaste until marriage. I was not. I want to be as pure. I want. I want that purity back.

Daniel Merboth [00:52:39]:
Can God give me that? One of the verses that came to my mind that we, like, we kind of worked through in the process was second. It was second Corinthians in 7:10. It says that godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation without regret. And as we went through the process of like, absolute repentance of this and absolute, like. Like honesty before God with it, not holding something back, not. Not trying to keep a piece of this as our identity or as a. Like something. Something like, as.

Daniel Merboth [00:53:18]:
As just, you know, kind of silly, but like relatable. As like a notch on the bedpost kind of thing. Like something we're proud of when we let that go and we truly can repent of it. So then instead have the life without regret. This person fully experienced that and to the point of like a beautiful, unique experience where God was able to reveal to them in a dream that they were made pure in this area. And not that everyone's gonna have it come to them in that way. God speaks to us all differently. But it was.

Daniel Merboth [00:53:48]:
It was that vivid for this person. Like, God, does this work?

Kenna Millea [00:53:53]:
Yeah, that's really beautiful. And yeah, just thinking too about you're both saying the, The. The strength, the power, the support that comes in reaching out in community and. And allowing others to bring light into these places of darkness. Whether it's the lies that we've been holding on to, whether it's the experiences that are regretful or hurtful or that were unwanted and were, you know, put upon us that. That there is so much. How God communicates with us and heals us is through others. And we certainly know that as therapists, and so would encourage those listening, of course, to, you know, if you're finding yourself kind of at the end of your own resources, like, my goodness sakes, you know, let's.

Kenna Millea [00:54:39]:
Let's call in others who, who share this. This vision, this really beautiful great news, as we've said, like, over and over and over again, like, this great news vision. I'm curious about other resources too that you all would recommend that have been helpful for your clients or for yourself as you've continued to educate, inform yourself. What has been supportive of really? Yeah. Healing, restoring and strengthening your understanding of sex within marriage.

Vonda Tiede [00:55:06]:
Yeah. Some of the stats that I referred to earlier and I wanted to make sure I I cited my source verbally here is from the book the great sex Rescue. And this book did a. It's. The book is based on research and really well done research, empirical data research of a survey of 22000 Christian women. Their experience in many ways around sexuality. And it kind of broke down some of the lies that we believed. Since then they did another research study and wrote a book called the marriage you want.

Vonda Tiede [00:55:46]:
And these are both Christian resources and in the marriage you want. The survey was of over 7,000 Christian people. I think 1300 or so were matched pairs. So it was a different type of research where they had the husband and the wife both answering the same question so they could run statistics based on how those people answered questions together. And so that book just has some great ideas and this again very research based of this is what we're dealing with. What can we do better? Another book that they wrote is called She Deserves Better about how do we talk to our our daughters about this topic. Again, research based on a lot of their stuff.

Vonda Tiede [00:56:37]:
This is by Gregoire and Lindenbach and they have since been published in a peer reviewed journal in Canada. So some just really solid stuff. I'm not here certainly to promote them. I don't get a prize or anything if I say their names. But one other book I wanted to mention actually three. I just realized as I put my glasses on. Shameless by Nadia Boltz Weber. Created for Connection by Sue Johnson.

Vonda Tiede [00:57:07]:
As I know you're familiar with Kenna and the Meaning of Marriage by Tim Keller. Certainly not every single thing in these books are perfect or I'm sure that I don't agree with every single part of them but they give us some really good solid ways to or resources to explore the topic.

Kenna Millea [00:57:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. And again just to shift our thinking a bit I think from what the culture offers us which can be these kind of polar ends of like we said before, either you know, elevating purity is the highest ultimate good and and maybe more of a rigid box in way of thinking or really taking the sacredness out of the act of sex. And that's kind of what we're left with if we don't pursue for ourselves to be formed in a. In a way that is more fully True. And is more in keeping, I think, with. With who God has created us to be and what he's calling us to participate in. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:58:05]:
Daniel, other things that, that you use with clients or have helped been helpful for you?

Daniel Merboth [00:58:11]:
I don't know that I have any specific books to add to that list, but one of the things that I'll challenge a lot of my clients with is to question where you learned the belief that sex isn't something you should talk about. Because a lot of times when we talk about sex, we talk in major general generalities and avoid anything personal. And we're scared of judgment or. I mean, there's a lot of reasons we do this. And it's not that sex isn't personal. And I think there should be, like, I think you should be allowed to keep private what you want to keep private about it, for sure. But I also think that most of us would benefit if we had a few people in our life where we could ask questions like, hey, this is where I'm struggling, or this is what I'm wondering about. And so I encourage people to.

Daniel Merboth [00:58:57]:
If you don't have a relationship where you feel you could do that, that needs to become a priority, like building relationships, pursuing relationships where you have that kind of safety, to be that level of vulnerable, and you know you're going to be received well, that. That's, That's a worthwhile pursuit. And then. And then utilizing that resource, like going to those places and having those conversations to. To explore. Explore sexuality. Because it is a very difficult conversation to have a lot of times, just because we don't know what beliefs other people hold, and we often are scared that they'll disagree with something we think. And we have to learn how to.

Daniel Merboth [00:59:36]:
As with most things, we have to learn to agree or disagree well with others.

Kenna Millea [00:59:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. And because I'm always banging on the differentiation and boundaries drama of like, it's certainly true in the topic of sex that when I meet with someone who disagrees with me, like, how do I hold on to myself and make space for them, you know, and to be connected to them? And sometimes that's within our marriage. Sometimes it's in a family, sometimes it's in. Of friendship. Something's in a faith context. Like, yeah, there's, there's. There's a spectrum.

Kenna Millea [01:00:07]:
Right. There's a lot of room for, again, God's creativity and the way he's called each of us. It can differ. Yeah. So. So as we are turning the corner toward the end of this conversation.

Vonda Tiede [01:00:18]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [01:00:18]:
Which is just the first of three episodes. They'll come out in in order. Sometimes we spread our series out over time. This one, Pat was like, nope, this is important. We just gotta have these conversations together. Um, so. So as we're closing this one down, Vonda, I'm wondering, do you have a challenge by choice for us? A way that we can take something of what we've all discussed here today forward into our lives?

Vonda Tiede [01:00:42]:
I do. I do have a challenge by choice. And as I thought about it, I had to scrap a lot of them because of the nature of this. There is trauma, there is frustration, there is shame, there is unmet need. There's so much that I didn't want to give one that would cause somebody to get in over their head too quickly, whether individually or in their relationship. So I want to give sort of a challenge by choice on a continuum. So on the low end of the continuum. And of course, I love that this is by choice.

Vonda Tiede [01:01:21]:
I love that you guys emphasize that would be to spend some time just with yourself and the Lord, maybe with a journal, maybe with a voice journal, maybe with some colored pencils. Whatever works for you. And imagine what you wish about your sexual relationship with your spouse. What do you want it to be? What do you want to feel? What do you want to intend? What vision does God give you for what it could be? And try to get beyond unitive and creative, be more specific about what that means to you. And this would look different for everyone. Of course, there'd be similar themes. But just get curious. Get to 30,000ft and take some time to think about it.

Vonda Tiede [01:02:19]:
There's a lot of people that just don't think about it. They just go do it. And there's not really a thought about, why am I even doing this? I just do it. Right. So the start would be just to get curious with yourself in the Lord about, what is my vision, what is my wish, what is my longing for this to look like? And then we move along the continuum to maybe the. The more tricky end of it. And that would be to then share those things with your spouse. And if that is not.

Vonda Tiede [01:02:53]:
Does not feel safe for you right now, please don't. That. That requires a lot of emotional, physical, spiritual safety. And you might need some more time to process that or seek some help. But I think that that challenge by choice could be something that could just. Just open something up, shift the perspective.

Kenna Millea [01:03:14]:
Yeah, I know my own, like, wheels are going. Of as many times as Pat and I have talked about this, like, you know, just. Oh, yeah, in this new season, as I'm continuing to become myself, I have new things to share. And so it's not a one and done conversation. Yeah. Which is like so many things in life. Right. But of course, but we as utilitarian Westerners like would like it to be such clean.

Kenna Millea [01:03:37]:
Okay. Taking care of that. And yeah. And so I love this challenge by choice because that is something that really can be revisited often. So thank you, thank you for giving us that. Well, I am going to close us in prayer before we say goodbye, so let us pray. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Amen. Lord of life, thank you for this gift of life.

Kenna Millea [01:04:06]:
Thank you for creating us to reflect your life giving power, your creative imaginative genius that is so beautiful and so varied and. Yeah. And that you would equip us, you would call us to bring that out into the world to share that with our spouses. Lord, you love us so much. It is so evident. And I pray for all of us here, for all of us listening, that any parts of our lives, our story, our hearts, our bodies, our minds that are wounded, that are not feeling up to the call to be co creators with you in reflecting your genius, that you would put your healing hands upon us, that you would bring us to greater wholeness, greater unity within ourselves, greater connection with our beloved Lord, that with you we can begin to, to know and to honor the longings of our hearts, of our minds, of our bodies, of our souls, and that we can, we can undertake those in a way that glorifies you and that speaks of you. That is a testament to your love and your mercy and your goodness in our lives. We make this prayer with great humility and trust in you, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Kenna Millea [01:05:45]:
Amen. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Well, Vonda and Daniel, thank you so much. More than I could have hoped for. I think a very, very fitting, hopeful kickoff for this series. So thank you for giving the thought, the prayer, the time that I, I know you all put into this and to you, our listeners really do pray. Hope that this is of, of great strength of consolation that you feel accompanied even across the airwaves by us, that you know that there are, there are people out there who want to.

Kenna Millea [01:06:23]:
Yeah. To, to share in diving into this topic with you. So please reach out as, as you continue to go on that challenge by choice that Vonda offered thiswholelifepodcast.com on social media, Facebook, Instagram, @thiswholelifepodcast, let us know. You know, like I said, we know we're not done with this topic, so where else would it be helpful to hear from those who are in the work of therapy, those who spend a lot of time in prayer thinking about these topics? And until this series continues, next time, God bless you.

Pat Millea [01:07:05]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin center for Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Vonda Tiede [01:07:26]:
Don't put this in the outtakes, Pat, for real.

Kenna Millea [01:07:29]:
No one's safe.