Ep83 Holy Sex, part 2: Arousal & Openness

"Love should be seen as something which in a sense never ‘is’ but is always only ‘becoming’, and what it becomes depends up on the contribution of both persons and the depth of their commitment.”
~ Karol Wojtyła

Why doesn't arousal come as easily as we expected?
How do we make opportunities for intimacy when life is so busy?
How can I have honest conversations with my spouse about arousal and our sex life?

In Episode 83 of This Whole Life, Pat & Kenna are joined by guest Trisha McKeever, LMFT for Part 2 of the "Holy Sex" series, focusing on arousal within marriage. With honesty, humor, and vulnerability, they explore the real-life intricacies of intimacy, including the challenges of noticing, naming, and cultivating arousal amidst the busyness of family life. The conversation breaks down common myths around arousal, embracing the idea that self-awareness and willingness play key roles in developing a healthy sexual relationship. Drawing from clinical practice and Christian principles, they discuss practical steps couples can take to recognize and communicate their needs, address internal and external “blocks,” and honor each other’s differences — whether you’re a “rocket” or an “airplane.” Tune in for relatable stories, expert insights, and actionable advice that will encourage couples to integrate faith, emotional awareness, and authentic connection in the bedroom and beyond.

Trisha McKeever is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in Minnesota and has been in private practice for 10 years. She is passionate about incorporating her own Christian beliefs and her perspective as a believer into the healing work that she does with her clients. Trisha also brings the wisdom of 19 years of marriage, and she is the mother of three children.

Episode 83 Show Notes

Chapters:

0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
15:01: What does arousal really mean?
24:37: Choosing arousal & openness
30:33: When the brakes get engaged
37:51: Communicating about arousal with my spouse
46:32: Gender differences in arousal & readiness
56:00: Challenge By Choice

Reflection Questions:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. How do you define “arousal” in the context of your own marriage or relationship?
3. What are some “blocks” or “brakes” that you have experienced in your sexual relationship? How might you begin to address them?
4. Can you think of a time when a small “yes” led to greater intimacy or connection?

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 13:43 What does arousal really mean?
• 23:19 Choosing arousal & openness
• 29:15 When the brakes get engaged
• 36:33 Communicating about arousal with my spouse
• 45:14 Gender differences in arousal & readiness
• 54:42 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Trisha McKeever [00:00:00]:
But it's really this noticing your body, noticing your body saying yes. And it might be a small yes, but again, the snowball effect where it then can lead to another yes. And that, that takes work and that takes willingness. And that's where I see a lot of roadblocks come up with couple.

Pat Millea [00:00:27]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician and leader. And I'm happy to bring you this podcast along with my bride, Kenna, a licensed marriage and family therapist. This is the stuff she and I talk about all the time. Doing dishes in the car on a date. We're excited to bring you this podcast for educational purposes. It's not therapy or a substitute for mental health care. So come on in, have a seat at our dining room table and join the conversation with us.

Pat Millea [00:01:05]:
We are so glad you're here.

Kenna Millea [00:01:19]:
Welcome back to This Whole Life. It is another awesome episode, the second part in a three part series on sex. And I am so excited to be here with you, my beloved.

Pat Millea [00:01:31]:
Does it. Does it make it less weird when you sing it or more weird?

Kenna Millea [00:01:34]:
I don't know. I don't know.

Pat Millea [00:01:35]:
But it makes it more fun. That's all I know. It's great. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:01:38]:
So, the one and only Pat Millea.

Pat Millea [00:01:40]:
Good to see you, my dear.

Kenna Millea [00:01:42]:
Yes, good, good, good, good. Because we are joined by my longtime colleague and dear friend, Trisha McKeever. Hello. Hello. Marriage and family therapist. Welcome, Trisha. To the illustrious This Whole Life.

Trisha McKeever [00:01:54]:
Thank you for having me.

Pat Millea [00:01:55]:
You are. You are a welcome third wheel to the conversation. Thank you. So glad you're here.

Kenna Millea [00:02:00]:
Of all the conversations too.

Trisha McKeever [00:02:02]:
I know how you get me here for this.

Kenna Millea [00:02:04]:
So because you owed me something, apparently.

Pat Millea [00:02:07]:
That's like the only way you lost a bet.

Kenna Millea [00:02:10]:
Yeah. So for those of you who don't know Trisha. Trisha is a licensed marriage and family therapist here in Minnesota and been in practice for 10 years. Fun fact. Trisha and I used to be office buddies, neighbors in an office suite. She, yeah. Is passionate about incorporating her own Christian beliefs and her perspective as a believer into the healing work that she does with her clients. And also brings the wisdom of 19 years of marriage to her darling, as well as mom to three really, really, really wonderful children.

Kenna Millea [00:02:44]:
So welcome, Trisha.

Trisha McKeever [00:02:45]:
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Kenna Millea [00:02:47]:
Yeah. And before we jump in to the. The stuff that everyone came for, just to help them get to know you and Life lately for you. Do you have a high and a hard you'd be willing to share?

Trisha McKeever [00:03:00]:
Yes. So the high is. It just makes me smile, which I guess is good for a high. Right. So you mentioned that I have three kids. Two in high school and one in diapers.

Kenna Millea [00:03:12]:
Oh, my gosh, Trisha, you're amazing.

Trisha McKeever [00:03:14]:
This is about the one in diapers like that. I know. It's kind of fun.

Kenna Millea [00:03:18]:
Whoa.

Pat Millea [00:03:19]:
That is a stark difference. And so beautiful. Oh, it's great.

Trisha McKeever [00:03:23]:
It's fun to say. So the one in diapers, she had her first word this week.

Pat Millea [00:03:29]:
Nice.

Trisha McKeever [00:03:29]:
Which was. Yes. Which was really, really fun.

Pat Millea [00:03:32]:
Beautiful.

Trisha McKeever [00:03:34]:
And so that was that sort of first thing that came to mind, because that was just so fun. You know, you're like, trying to get it on camera, and it was just really, really sweet. And the first time you hear it, you're like, wait, did she say it?

Kenna Millea [00:03:45]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:03:45]:
Or was it just a sound?

Trisha McKeever [00:03:47]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:03:47]:
Was it using the right context? Exactly.

Trisha McKeever [00:03:50]:
Does she understand what she's saying? We went through. We had that conversation, my husband and I. We decided that it is her first word.

Pat Millea [00:03:59]:
I wouldn't call either of you objective, but that's fine. That's okay.

Kenna Millea [00:04:03]:
Can we remind her of this when she is the one in high school? Like.

Trisha McKeever [00:04:05]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:04:05]:
What's your call, darling? Your word was yes.

Pat Millea [00:04:08]:
I was just going to say that together, you clearly are doing something right. Because, what, like 60% of the kids out there, probably their first word was no. No.

Kenna Millea [00:04:17]:
Or most of our kids said shoe. That was their first word. Really?

Pat Millea [00:04:20]:
That's. Yeah. Or daddy, because that's easier than M. Mama, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So wonderful.

Kenna Millea [00:04:27]:
High.

Trisha McKeever [00:04:27]:
So it's so fun to witness these things and to get to experience them again. So. So that's the high. The. The hard is that my husband is just in between jobs right now. And so that's. Yeah, a lot of people experience that sometimes, but that's hard.

Kenna Millea [00:04:45]:
Yeah.

Trisha McKeever [00:04:46]:
It takes another. Like, I notice in myself another level of I. I'm needing to trust, needing to rest. And so there's. There's learning in there. I noticed very quickly when it happened, and we're both just trying to embrace that. So, yeah, it's gonna work out just fine. But I'm not gonna deny the hard.

Trisha McKeever [00:05:10]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:05:11]:
Right. Right.

Trisha McKeever [00:05:12]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:05:13]:
I mean, I think that's such a statement of faith. Right. Like, to be honest about the hard and to say, like, yeah, and we trust. And maybe that's a new for your marriage, you know, to have this kind of challenge presented.

Trisha McKeever [00:05:25]:
It is. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:05:26]:
So it's like. And growth for the marriage about how to deal with this stress. This is new. 19 years in and we're still learning new tricks, people. Yes.

Pat Millea [00:05:35]:
Seriously.

Kenna Millea [00:05:36]:
Prayers. Prayers for that process. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pat Millea [00:05:41]:
You or me?

Kenna Millea [00:05:42]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:05:42]:
Rock, paper, scissors again.

Kenna Millea [00:05:43]:
I'm good, I'll go.

Pat Millea [00:05:45]:
Do it.

Kenna Millea [00:05:46]:
I'm gonna. I'm gonna keep on the hard train and say that the house selling saga lives on. Although maybe by the time we hit publish on this, maybe it'll be over.

Trisha McKeever [00:05:55]:
I don't know.

Kenna Millea [00:05:56]:
Hopeful. It's been about five weeks for those of you keeping track at home. Almost to the day actually. And we've had two interested persons. Three. Three interested persons come through, right? Three.

Pat Millea [00:06:08]:
Two and a half.

Kenna Millea [00:06:09]:
Yeah, two and a half. And yesterday, for example, got a call that we had like essentially 90 minutes to whip the house into shape. And if you have ever been a fly on the wall in the Millea house of what it looks like when we leave for work slash school at 7am, y is it's not pretty. And so I came home to like many frying pans that I just shoved into a laundry basket. Literally.

Pat Millea [00:06:31]:
There's a daily 7am decision of just, I'll do it later.

Kenna Millea [00:06:34]:
Oh man, it's not even a decision at this point. Like, it is just the default mode of like, why would I do these now? I'm going to be late for whatever whatever.

Kenna Millea [00:06:42]:
So anyway, so yeah, just the daily kind of wear, but also the Tetris game of like matching the timing of buying a house and selling a house and like trying not to rent in between. And yet maybe that's what it's going to come down to. So, yeah, I don't know. It's just a hard and like also tempered with the fact that like, our house is actually really lovely. It's just not in the right place. And so to be in our home is not like upsetting. There's nothing dysfunctional about it. There's nothing that's like a hazard to our health, but it's just not the most convenient for our life.

Kenna Millea [00:07:20]:
Life right now. In fact, the realtor yesterday said like, okay, well if we, if we get them to bump it out a little bit, like how late can we go? And I was like, dude, we're not coming home from football till like 8pm so like you, like, you give them the 4 to 8 range.

Pat Millea [00:07:32]:
I don't know, next Tuesday? What are you doing then?

Kenna Millea [00:07:35]:
But right now, not great. So that is the hard. I would say the high is. It's, it's just Been a really busy season. There's a lot of things happening here at work. Yeah, it's football season for football, soccer season for five of our kids. Pat's coaching a lot of things. And earlier this week, you, Pat, said to me one evening, I'm committed to coming to bed with you.

Kenna Millea [00:08:01]:
Which is.

Pat Millea [00:08:01]:
I said it in the morning.

Kenna Millea [00:08:02]:
Was it the morning?

Pat Millea [00:08:03]:
In the morning, it was like at 7:15, 6:45. Which, by the way, if I can toot my own horn for a second, that is the first intelligible sentence I have uttered before 7am in about six years. But I was so committed to it that I wanted to put the flag in the sand and make sure that I was able to stick to it at night.

Kenna Millea [00:08:23]:
And you did. You did. And, and in the theme of what we're going to talk about today, it was not a sexual, like, it wasn't a statement of like, we, we're going to bed together.

Pat Millea [00:08:31]:
First of all, you don't know that. But you're right, it was not.

Kenna Millea [00:08:36]:
It was not. But it was like you really pursuing the marriage even in the midst of a busy season. And that is what was so, like, dear to me. And I know what a sacrifice it is for you as a night owl to go on my early bird schedule of, like, in bed by 9:30, like, snoring.

Pat Millea [00:08:53]:
I have three more things I'm trying to accomplish before 11:30 at night. Yeah, right.

Kenna Millea [00:08:57]:
And so that was just a definite high of, like, how can we have connection in times of chaos or times of distress and adversity? Like, it's these little things that really matter. So thank you. Because we didn't even get to talk about it.

Pat Millea [00:09:10]:
You're welcome.

Kenna Millea [00:09:11]:
And it was noticed, it was noted, and it mattered.

Pat Millea [00:09:14]:
Great. Wonderful. Minor tangent. I wonder. There has to be a study done somewhere of research on the percentage of married couples who go to bed at the same time. And I would bet that it's less than half. And I don't have any empirical evidence to base that on just little anecdotal conversations here and there. And I wonder what the correlation is between going to bed together and satisfaction in marriage.

Pat Millea [00:09:43]:
Yeah, I would. I just, I, I, I wonder if that is like a major component or at least a contributing factor that we don't give enough credit, you know?

Kenna Millea [00:09:50]:
Yeah, Yeah. I thought you were going to say, I wonder how many marriages consist of an early bird and a night owl and that this, like, challenge. What are, what are you and your husband. Are you.

Trisha McKeever [00:10:00]:
I've become a little more of an early bird. Okay. And that's his natural then he's more of a night owl.

Kenna Millea [00:10:07]:
Okay.

Trisha McKeever [00:10:07]:
Okay, gotcha.

Kenna Millea [00:10:08]:
Okay, so you guys are kind of complimenting each other now. Yeah. Well, especially with a newborn or little one, right?

Pat Millea [00:10:15]:
Yeah, totally. That'll do it.

Kenna Millea [00:10:17]:
That'll force your hand.

Pat Millea [00:10:18]:
Night owl and early bird.

Kenna Millea [00:10:19]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:10:20]:
Thanks, kid.

Trisha McKeever [00:10:20]:
You don't have a choice.

Kenna Millea [00:10:23]:
All right. And you, Pat?

Pat Millea [00:10:25]:
I think a recent hard has been. And it's a good hard, but it's like a constant hard for any parent. It's the like never ending mental and emotional capacity that it takes to constantly address the specific needs of every child that you have as they move to different stages and they need different things every month. It feels like. So like this year we've got a freshman in high school and a kindergartner. So two new beginnings, but extraordinarily different beginnings. And what they need, like physically, like we don't have to buy the stupid eight dollar pencils for the freshmen, but what they need emotionally, more importantly, like, what kind of support do you need? What kind of questions do you have? All the kids in the middle, some middle children, one in particular, who we're trying to like stave off accentuated middle child syndrome later in life, you know, just like, what kind of attention do you need to help you feel less inferior in a world where it's easy to feel inferior, where just a lot of younger kids need attention, A lot of older kids have stuff going on, you know, boys and girls, what they need differently. It just like, it can feel very exhausting at times.

Pat Millea [00:11:39]:
And it's not a bad thing. Like, it's all kind of exciting stuff to help them navigate and develop and just mature as they grow. But it is, it can be taxing to just like, I thought we were done with this kid for like two months or like, I thought we had.

Kenna Millea [00:11:53]:
This, this season figured out.

Pat Millea [00:11:55]:
Yeah, right. Oh, wait, you. New things.

Kenna Millea [00:11:57]:
You need new things.

Pat Millea [00:11:57]:
Oh, a new season. Great. Oh, so exciting. Good. Yeah. Let's talk about dating. Let's do that. That's.

Pat Millea [00:12:04]:
And again, like, I love talking about important things with our kids. I love talking about dating. We've talked about sex with two of our children. I love talking about those things with our kids. But it can just be a lot, so it's challenging at times. The high is that for all of the like blood, sweat and tears that you and I kind of have poured into the Martin Center for Integration, the work that we do there is great fruit being born in a bunch of different ways. But the fruit that I am really grateful for lately is just how lively and like robust the team that we have put together feels right now. And just like amazing people that I would hang out personally even if we didn't work together.

Pat Millea [00:12:48]:
We take our responsibilities to them very seriously and helping them provide for themselves and their families and making sure that their life is healthy and that they're not being like ground to pieces by the work that they're doing. And one way that we do that is we get together socially and do as much as we can. So a couple weeks ago, we had a picnic for all the families and all the plus ones of all the therapists that we work with. And it was just so great. It was like the first, not 90 degree, beautiful day in Minnesota. It was like 76, kids were playing on the playground. Tons of great conversations. Like 60 some people.

Pat Millea [00:13:23]:
Yeah. It was just most of them children. Oh. And there was no agenda. It was just like had brunch and hung out and kind of celebrated life and it was. It was really, really wonderful. So God is good. And if I have to work my butt off for this job, I'm really glad that it's worth it.

Kenna Millea [00:13:38]:
Yeah. With people and for people.

Pat Millea [00:13:41]:
Right? Right. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah, it's really good. Well, you ready to get spicy, ladies?

Kenna Millea [00:13:46]:
I know. Quick left hand turn here.

Pat Millea [00:13:50]:
So first of all, here's how I'll preface things. The first little, I would say, like, what's the not Viewer discretion. The first listener discretion advised caveat is that, friends, this may be more of an airpod episode than taking the kids home from school episode in the minivan with the speakers on, you know what I'm saying? Like, and there's nothing like that will be, you know, immoral that we're talking about. We're talking about like beautifully holy, joyful things. But these are things that maybe the 6 year old will have a lot of questions about. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:14:21]:
Maturity to receive what we're offering.

Pat Millea [00:14:24]:
Exactly. Exactly. So there's your first caveat.

Kenna Millea [00:14:26]:
You're also really not going to want to miss this episode.

Pat Millea [00:14:28]:
Yeah, totally. Right? Seriously. Yeah. Don't not come back to it. Yeah. But if. If your 7 year old is like, what are they talking about? Turn it up. Then just like save it for tonight.

Pat Millea [00:14:38]:
You know what I mean? The second thing is that I know that Kenna and Trisha, you have had conversations about many things, just like clinical consulting wise, but specifically about this episode. And Trisha, my understanding is that when Kenna asked you about having an episode about sex and about the challenges that couples face One of the first things that came up for you was this idea of arousal and how couples at times don't understand, they don't appreciate, they don't know how to pursue this idea of arousal in their sexual relationship in a healthy way. So maybe we can just start there. Can you help us? From your clinical background, from the conversations you've had when you talk about patterns of arousal, what do you mean in a married relationship?

Trisha McKeever [00:15:25]:
Yeah, so patterns of arousal, I think we, I'm gonna identify them on a spectrum. Right. So sometimes we might be more quickly aroused and sometimes it takes, it takes more time and sometimes it's not the day. And all those things are okay. But I think where couples can fall into the patterns is when they start to identify and kind of name for themselves and for their partner. This is how I work or this is what I am and this is what you are. And it's not that simple. It's much more nuanced than that.

Trisha McKeever [00:16:07]:
And so I think we can pigeonhole our own arousal pattern. So even that term arousal pattern, pattern maybe implies that it doesn't change. And so I think we like to drop off the word pattern and just to name arousal as an appetite, a response. There's a reason that arousal or sex is often compared to food. I don't know if you've heard, heard that, but just that appetite. Right. And how that you can't always predict it, but you can certainly fully control it. So what I see couples falling into again is maybe out of their own emotion of disappointment, for example, of this is how it is, then maybe they start telling themselves a story.

Trisha McKeever [00:17:05]:
This is how it's always going to be. And this is the pattern. She does this or he doesn't do that. And in some ways it can be a self fulfilling prophecy.

Pat Millea [00:17:15]:
Sure.

Trisha McKeever [00:17:16]:
And I think the stress of life, the busyness of life, I want to put some blame on that. I mean it plays a role in terms of how frequently we're able to make time. And we're going to talk more about this because we can with intentionality make time. And that's, that's extremely important. But I think we lose some of the creativity, some of the playfulness, some of the space to even notice, wait, am I feeling aroused? Because that is the whole process of embodiment which is really just knowing, noticing what's going on in your body. And we have to have some level of pausing in our mind of the to do list of the stressors in order to enter our body and even be aware of what's going on. And so what I see with couples is sometimes a lack of willingness, and sometimes it's just because there's been a lack of knowledge or a lack of practice about this willingness. But the willingness, sometimes there's a struggle there to see, could there be arousal here? Is, is that at play or could that be at play? And so sometimes we just need to open our eyes a little bit and understand these different facets of arousal.

Trisha McKeever [00:18:48]:
And sometimes there's. It's like a snowball effect. Sometimes there. There are some pieces of that and we don't notice that because we are just jumping to this place of sexual arousal full on, ready to have intercourse or, you know, and there's. There's a lot more to that.

Kenna Millea [00:19:09]:
I'm thinking, like, real basic as you're talking. I'm like, gosh, do we need a shared definition of what we mean by arousal? And might that actually help us break it down and see it more broadly than what you just described on the precipice of sex?

Trisha McKeever [00:19:23]:
Like, yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:19:23]:
Can you describe, like, what are we talking about? What are we looking for? What would it mean to notice that I am aroused?

Trisha McKeever [00:19:29]:
Yeah, yeah, that's. That's wonderful. I think a definition for arousal for yourself, just to make that clear, would be like, you are noticing there are some physical sensations that can be combined with, you know, emotions of like, I'm longing, longing to be close, physically close, longing for a cuddle with my partner, longing to. To connect sexually. But it's really this noticing your body, noticing your body saying yes. And it might be a small yes, but again, the snowball effect where it then can lead to another yes. And that, that takes work and that takes willingness. And that's where I see a lot of roadblocks come up with couples.

Kenna Millea [00:20:21]:
So I want to just highlight two things I think are super important in what you said. The first was your language was really particular around this subjectivity, like the subjective experience of what, what my body's physical sensations, what my. What my self's emotional response is, like, the uniqueness of how those come together and the messages those send. So one is that it's not a one size fits all of, like, this is what it means to be aroused. So that I noticed and, and I can give you a moment to, to speak to that in just a second. And then the second is how much you are emphasizing attunement and the ability to be aware, the ability, the ability to be connected. Like, if we're talking about integration like that this isn't just A physical experience, that there is a mind component that needs to be connected.

Trisha McKeever [00:21:12]:
Oh, yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:21:13]:
And so all the talk we give on this, on this podcast and in our work around, like these fundamental building blocks of being able to notice what's going on in me, name the emotions that are showing up for me. Like, this is a place where that comes into play and that matters. Yeah. Follow up thoughts on any of that.

Trisha McKeever [00:21:30]:
Yeah, yeah, I guess, if I can. I wanted to go back and say one more thing just around like, defining arousal before we go further into it. And this is. This is just one framework, but it's a local guy, Dr. Kyle Jenrick. I don't know exactly how to say his last name, but I think that's close enough. But he has a model for the sexual experience. And in his model, what I like about it is that arousal is something that is happening prior to seduction and then prior to the sexual encounter.

Trisha McKeever [00:22:11]:
So arousal, how he defines it, I really wanted to include this definition. He defines it as more of a self arousal than anything else. So it's that mental. That mental piece of, okay, I am. I am going to say yes to this. I am at least yes to the experience, whatever that might mean. Yes to connection with my partner. I am going to see if I can do something like take a walk around the block or take a shower and see if I can pause all of the things that are going on in my mind so that I can enter my body a little bit and notice what parts of me feel good.

Trisha McKeever [00:22:54]:
Notice where there are small yeses again, which can then hopefully lead to more small yeses in order to. To see if that engagement can be there with your partner. So, yeah, he defines arousal more as this self arousal, and we're each individually responsible for that. So not waiting for your partner to turn you on, basically.

Pat Millea [00:23:19]:
Which is fascinating because I feel like the. The way that we like colloquially use the word arousal, it's an involuntary response, Right. Something happens out there. Someone watches a movie or they see a picture or they have a memory or whatever, and they have an emotional response that they didn't choose, and they have a physiological response that they didn't choose, and all of a sudden they are aroused. And what's fascinating is that I am recalling different dynamics for us, I think, but also different conversations with other folks where there. I would not have put this word on it then, but it now looking back, it feels like there was a denial of that choice to allow myself to be aroused for a host of different reasons. I can think back to conversations with folks who, you know, 10, 15 years into marriage, literal physical bodies change and they look different than they did 15 years ago. And sometimes that can create division and frustration in a marriage because maybe someone expects the involuntary arousal and they're not taking responsibility for their piece of choosing to be aroused by the person that I love.

Pat Millea [00:24:36]:
You know, that idea of self arousal is really interesting that it's a willful choice. And what I'm hearing, I guess even more deeply is it's not just a physical response, that there's a movement of the will to be connected to my spouse and that if I don't choose it, I shouldn't maybe be surprised if my body isn't responding that way. Yeah, that's fascinating. I think of you and I, Kenna, are Catholic, Trisha. I know that you are not Catholic, but obviously bringing all of your Christian principles to the work that you do. If you are looking for a great Catholic investigation of arousal, St. John Paul II, before he was pope in 1960, wrote a massive. Because he's JP2, wrote a massive work called Love and Responsibility.

Kenna Millea [00:25:30]:
By massive you mean dense as well as long.

Pat Millea [00:25:33]:
All of the above. I'm going to read you some sections from pages 273 and following. And that was not the end. Just so thick, heavy and like intellectually dense. But he gets into some of these goals of self gift in marriage. So if you'll humor me, I want to read one that really comes up in terms of choosing to be connected to my spouse. So this is again from Love and responsibility. This was 1960.

Pat Millea [00:26:00]:
He says, we have defined love as an ambition to ensure the true good of another person and consequently as the antithesis of egoism. Since in marriage a man and a woman are associated sexually as well as in other respects, the good must be sought in this area too, from the point of view of another person. From the altruistic standpoint, it is necessary to insist that intercourse must not serve merely as a means of allowing sexual excitement to reach its climax in one of the partners. And he even says that is the man alone. He says, but the climax must be reached in harmony, not at the expense of one partner, but with both partners fully involved. And what he gets at later on is he's quick to say that it's a right goal of a sexual encounter for a man and a woman to reach climax simultaneously. And he acknowledges full on, that is not always going to happen. That's not necessary.

Pat Millea [00:26:57]:
That does not define a successful or unsuccessful act of intimacy. You know, But I guess what, what that idea brings up like if, if the point of marriage is seeking the good of my spouse, if love for my spouse means seeking their good, then that has to apply to our sexual relationship as well. So what, what have you seen, Trisha, in terms of people being willing to make that step toward seeking the good of my spouse in our sexual relationship? What, what maybe does the first step look like? If someone's had months, years of distance, of a lack of intimacy, of no intimacy. What, what's maybe something to kind of move them in that direction.

Trisha McKeever [00:27:40]:
I think identifying. And they might need a therapist or. I mean, that's what I think of.

Pat Millea [00:27:46]:
Yep, Right.

Trisha McKeever [00:27:47]:
But someone to help them in this process. But identifying what the blocks are for them. Because what we know about turn ons versus like what, what stops us or what blocks us is that usually the, the things that block us are more sensitive. And so those are usually the things to explore first rather than you need more sexy things more.

Kenna Millea [00:28:17]:
I see.

Trisha McKeever [00:28:17]:
It's. It's usually interesting. What can we identify that's stopping us?

Kenna Millea [00:28:22]:
The blocks are really powerful.

Trisha McKeever [00:28:24]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:28:25]:
Okay.

Trisha McKeever [00:28:25]:
Yes. And there's different types. There are the types that are external and some of them are very socially acceptable. Right. Like you're in a public place.

Pat Millea [00:28:39]:
Yeah, Right.

Trisha McKeever [00:28:40]:
Or maybe it's that the kids are still awake. And then there's these other type of blocks that you certainly probably need deeper work on. And those can be, can be varied. But it could be any sexual violence, sexual harm that you've experienced. It could be any sort of trauma that is connected to sense of self, which I laugh because that's so broad.

Pat Millea [00:29:14]:
Yeah, sure.

Trisha McKeever [00:29:15]:
But I think we, we all, we all touch this. It's not like, oh, just a few people experience this. No, I think we all, we all have sexual wounding. Whether it's from the culture, whether it's from a specific person, whether it's harm we did to ourself. I mean there's, we can't escape this. So this other type of block is internal. It's trauma. It's how you view yourself.

Trisha McKeever [00:29:39]:
And again, those fall more under, like the therapeutic work. But to try to answer that question, either one of those blocks, whether it's more of like these external ones that might be a little easier to solve, or whether it's one of the internal ones that are still very possible to heal from and to understand, I would just say be gentle with yourself and try to identify one of those things. One of those things to work towards and take some steps towards to reduce how it does block. You or as a. There's a common example of, like, the brakes or the accelerator on a car. So the blocks are the brakes. Right. And just to give credit, where this all comes from is called the dual control model.

Trisha McKeever [00:30:37]:
Just saying there are these two systems always at play in the body. One is the inhibitor. That's the brake or the block. One is the. The excitement, and that's the accelerator. And so these things are at play, and so you're needing to kind of play with them, as you know yourself, to try to get the right. The right amount of brakes off, the right amount of acceleration on, if that makes sense.

Kenna Millea [00:31:04]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pat Millea [00:31:06]:
It's an interesting image, too, because I can think of times when we've had to have conversation about times when one of us had the gas on and the other one has the brakes. And when you have the gas on and it feels like you run into a brick wall at 65 miles an hour, it's no surprise that it hurts. You know, like, there's that rejection that comes from, well, I was ready to go, and you're telling me you don't want what it sounds like. What it can sound like is you don't want to be close to me. You know, and it takes some. Some real honesty, I think, to. To get into the nuance of, like, I want to be close to you. I desire to be close to you.

Pat Millea [00:31:41]:
I am so stressed out about this one thing at work for the next three days that it's going to have to wait until after that, you know, but without that kind of honesty that. That authenticity, it can sound like really heartbreaking rejection, you know?

Kenna Millea [00:31:55]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm wondering too, you know, Trisha, about other. Other areas of lack in education. Right. That the preconceived notions that couples maybe come to your office with, or an individual even comes in if their spouse isn't willing that. That you find, like, wow, this is really broadly out there in the culture. If there are things that have been helpful and really enlightening for other folks to understand about themselves, about the dynamic and the space between them, anything that rings bells there.

Trisha McKeever [00:32:30]:
I think the way sex gets talked about, the way frequency, the way we can fall into demand sometimes, whether that's demanding no sex or demanding sex, just there's. And this is so connected to all of our sexual woundings. Right. And misunderstandings that we all are sorting through. Yeah. So the way we can unintentionally, most of the time, hurt one another with the. The way that we are being. We're protecting ourselves A little too much, maybe.

Trisha McKeever [00:33:12]:
And so I see that being worked, worked through a lot with my couples, but then also kind of that agency of understanding, okay, this is how it is for me right now, and there's something that I can do about it, and it's not necessarily wrong. The goal isn't for me to be more like my partner, but how can we try to hurt each other less as we talk about this, as we navigate it? Because this is a negotiation. It is. It is a unique conversation and experience that, that you're having and you're having it with. With this person that you are also. Right. Business partner with friend, friends with parenting, with all these other aspects. But what's.

Trisha McKeever [00:34:12]:
What's great is when this is coming up with couples, I just celebrate that because sometimes I see it being avoided because it can be uncomfortable. People don't want to talk about it. They haven't had good experiences. If they're faith based, they. I mean, that can add a whole layer of. It hasn't been talked about with the faith integration. And so how, like, what are their rights and wrongs? What are they. How do we talk about it?

Kenna Millea [00:34:45]:
Not a lot of families reading Love and Responsibility around the dinner table.

Pat Millea [00:34:50]:
Hearing future popes talk about climaxes, you know.

Kenna Millea [00:34:53]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:34:54]:
Well, I think back to your episode in the first of this series, kind of with Vonda and Daniel. About Vonda talking about her challenge by choice was consider for yourself, what are my desires for a healthy sexual relationship? And not even just what do I feel like is the right thing to do. Back to your point, Trisha, about some kind of moral or spiritual framework, certainly beginning with that, but moving beyond that eventually to what do I hope for this relationship with my spouse? And then I think Daniel made the point too, in that conversation about being willing to have some conversation. I think it was he that said, kind of echoing something you said, Trisha, that, like, we all come with baggage. Some of us didn't hear the word sex until we were 19 and it was our friends, not our parents or somebody from a place of real intimacy. You know, some of us were taught way too much about sex when we were four years old or something like that. Right. So all of us have our own history.

Pat Millea [00:36:00]:
Given that history, how can I communicate about my desires to the person that I love? So I guess for either of you lovely clinicians, what, in terms of arousal, specifically, what does it look like to be honest with myself? This is what I appreciate. This is how I feel pleased and satisfied. This is how this helps me to self Arouse. I realize it's not your job to arouse me, but this will help me along the process. So what are the things that somebody can identify in themselves in terms of their desires? And are there any helpful tips in communicating that of making it a little bit less scary in talking to your spouse about it?

Trisha McKeever [00:36:49]:
Well, to go off that last point that you said, I think out of the goodness in their hearts, I think a lot of us are not wanting to hurt our partner. We're wanting to protect them. But we all know deep down that a lack of conversation about it, especially a lack of being honest, isn't, isn't ultimately loving and isn't going to progress you further.

Pat Millea [00:37:16]:
Right.

Trisha McKeever [00:37:16]:
So just to address that, we can all. We don't want to hurt someone we love. And, and so when we're having that fear that it will hurt them, just to name that. To name that to them. Yeah, I don't want to hurt you. I'm afraid that this will hurt you. Here's what it's about. Is this a good time for me to share it with you?

Kenna Millea [00:37:42]:
Also, pro tip, not like on the doorstep of sex. That is not the best time to bring that up.

Pat Millea [00:37:52]:
Hey, while we're here, before we get rolling.

Kenna Millea [00:37:53]:
Speaking from some experience. Okay.

Pat Millea [00:37:55]:
Just a couple of minutes, minor critiques.

Kenna Millea [00:37:57]:
And sorry, Trisha, you're on a roll. But I just was like, I've been that person.

Trisha McKeever [00:38:03]:
I didn't end at the right moment. And that might be the first time you've been face to face that day alone. It also makes sense that that's when it's coming up.

Pat Millea [00:38:12]:
Right.

Trisha McKeever [00:38:13]:
But that just speaks to how stress and, and pace of life is. I mean, those are the biggest challenges, I think, especially when we're raising kids.

Kenna Millea [00:38:23]:
Oh, my gosh. Yes. So, okay, so admittedly, we don't need this to be like, Pat and Kenna's sex life episode. Like, you don't need to. Surprise, you're our therapist for the day.

Pat Millea [00:38:34]:
Don't tell her that that's why she's here. What do you.

Kenna Millea [00:38:37]:
But here's the thing, right? I can admit as I'm listening to us, I'm like, I'm, I'm identifying with some of these, like, not great practices, for example, of really kind of putting it on Pat. Like, like, you've got to help me get out of my head, get out of my to do list, get out of my, you know, worry about the seven things, whatever. And I think part of that is because, Pat, you are really transparent with me of like, I'm Ready to go whenever. Like, you know, like. Like, he's just. And. And I'm like, okay, I need. I remember.

Kenna Millea [00:39:12]:
This is maybe really silly, but I remember our daughter's kindergarten teacher telling me when children learn to read, some are like airplanes and they need a long Runway, and some are like rockets, and they go straight up. And I'm like, So I think I'm the airplane. I think Pat's the rocket.

Pat Millea [00:39:28]:
My theme song is that Elton John song, Rocket. Yeah. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:39:35]:
So, like, am I the only one? Like, can you share? Okay. Can you help me?

Pat Millea [00:39:40]:
Do you want to explain? Do you want to tell the story that illustrates this? First of all.

Kenna Millea [00:39:44]:
I don't want to tell the story because then it really feels like maybe we're making Trisha our therapist. No, we. We worked through it. It was fine.

Pat Millea [00:39:50]:
Is it not a problem? It's amusing. I think it's really funny, though. So, Trisha.

Kenna Millea [00:39:54]:
No. So listeners.

Pat Millea [00:39:56]:
So listeners. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. This is not. This would make it too much for you.

Kenna Millea [00:39:59]:
So other people listening.

Pat Millea [00:40:00]:
I'm going to look this way to the camera, not to you. So, dear listener, a few evenings ago.

Kenna Millea [00:40:05]:
Including your parents and my parents.

Pat Millea [00:40:07]:
Yeah. Well, we have seven children. I'm sure this is not some grand illusion about what happened. And they all look like you, so we're fine. So a few nights ago, we were in the marital embrace, and we were in the middle of the act itself, and all of a sudden, Kenna says, oh, my gosh. And it was jarring and unnerving. And I was reminded in this moment why it is so helpful for us to participate in Kenna getting out of her head and her to do list. Because the thing that popped into her head was, oh, now I know why the salad tonight didn't taste good, because I didn't put the right herbs in it.

Kenna Millea [00:40:51]:
Trisha, come to my rescue.

Trisha McKeever [00:40:54]:
This is so real.

Pat Millea [00:40:56]:
Dying laughing in the bed. Like, what is happening? No, like laughing out loud. Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:41:01]:
Okay, good job.

Trisha McKeever [00:41:03]:
Great work.

Pat Millea [00:41:05]:
Cause, like, we have known each other long enough that, like, I know in.

Kenna Millea [00:41:08]:
The biblical sense.

Pat Millea [00:41:13]:
In all these ways, we have known each other long enough that I understand the mind of my bride enough to know that as easy as it is for me to have nothing going on up here, because there's a lot going on other places, it is not that way for her. So it was easy at this point. Now, thanks be to God, to not take offense to it, to not see it. It's like, well, clearly I'm not doing my job right. If you're worried about herbs, you know. So anyway, back to your point.

Kenna Millea [00:41:40]:
So we'll back to, back to Trisha.

Pat Millea [00:41:41]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:41:42]:
Of like, can you help us put some, some concepts to this? Because I, I imagine that there are others listening who can identify with, with my or Pat's part in this story. And it can be. I, I could have felt so much guilt and shame if he had been upset.

Trisha McKeever [00:41:58]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:41:59]:
I could have felt like crap, like I hurt him so much by not being 100% focused on him. He could have taken it very personally, very understandably that I wasn't, you know, with him in that moment and a rejection of him, a dismissal of him. And so maybe to help. Yeah. Give us some concepts and constructs that we can go, you know, this is quite human and quite common.

Trisha McKeever [00:42:23]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:42:24]:
Here's what's going on and maybe here's how we address things like that.

Trisha McKeever [00:42:27]:
Yeah. Well, the, the reason I said, oh, were you really laughing? Was because I could have so easily seen it going the other way.

Pat Millea [00:42:36]:
Right.

Trisha McKeever [00:42:36]:
And so I think it's almost this human impulse to take it personally because.

Kenna Millea [00:42:43]:
You're doing something very vulnerable.

Trisha McKeever [00:42:45]:
It's our body. I mean, it's about more than that, but still very vulnerable. And so it's difficult enough to maybe not be self critiquing. And so then to put critique on the relationship or the sexual encounter is another layer. So it's hard to, I think it can be hard to avoid that being hurt, that taking it personal. So good job.

Pat Millea [00:43:21]:
Lots of practice.

Kenna Millea [00:43:22]:
Something was going well there.

Pat Millea [00:43:23]:
Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Trisha McKeever [00:43:25]:
And I don't think, you know, I know we're not here, we are talking. I'm going back to your, your story. We are talking about it.

Kenna Millea [00:43:32]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:43:32]:
No, it's, it is emblematic of things that happen in marriages in general.

Trisha McKeever [00:43:37]:
Very common.

Pat Millea [00:43:38]:
You know what I mean?

Trisha McKeever [00:43:38]:
Yes, it's very common. And so there's going to be. Yeah. A kid wakes up and knocks on. Maybe they don't knock on the door, throw themselves at the door.

Pat Millea [00:43:47]:
We've had a number of those too.

Trisha McKeever [00:43:49]:
Right. Or someone has to use the restroom or someone left their phone on or I mean, fill in the blanks. So many things that aren't anyone's fault. So I think just to look at it as okay, yeah, we're maybe backing up a step, but we can go right back into it.

Pat Millea [00:44:06]:
Yeah.

Trisha McKeever [00:44:06]:
So I think it's important to really normalize those types of things and still do whatever you can ahead of time, whether you want to. I mean, you know the term worry time. Right. Like whether you Want to schedule a little worry time and jot things down or whether you are wanting to just, you know, relax, ask for a massage. That's a common one. That's why I say it so helpful to. To enter your body a little more. But we.

Trisha McKeever [00:44:41]:
I don't think we can fully control those. Those things that are just going to fly through our heads sometimes.

Pat Millea [00:44:45]:
Yeah. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:44:48]:
At least not this one.

Pat Millea [00:44:50]:
Yeah. Correct. Right. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:44:53]:
I think, too, to go back to kind of where I was going before that story as well, of the difference in. And I feel like it's common among my gal friends to say, like, I'm that airplane that needs that longer runway, and gosh, my husband's, like, ready to drop everything at the moment. I say, go. So to talk about that. And, like, are there gender differences? Like, is this observable? Is this science to say, like, yeah, men and women are different, and then we got to figure out how to, like, bridge, you know, how to make the rocket and the airplane meet up in the middle?

Trisha McKeever [00:45:25]:
Yes. Yeah. I would assume most people listening are. Are. Are nodding.

Pat Millea [00:45:32]:
Right, Right.

Trisha McKeever [00:45:32]:
And they're saying yes. Among myself and my friends and my. What I've heard, I think there are some common gender differences. So I don't. I don't. I can't speak to much science behind that, but I have heard with the dual control model that women will generally have more sensitive breaks. And that could be something sensory. Right.

Trisha McKeever [00:45:57]:
Like, there's. I'll use an example from my life just to even the playing field.

Pat Millea [00:46:03]:
Thank you. Oh, finally.

Kenna Millea [00:46:06]:
Sorry, Trisha's husband.

Trisha McKeever [00:46:09]:
We have two dogs, and they are in our bed fairly frequently. Not when we're having sex, to be very clear. But the other day, I got a whiff of a dog smell, and it was just dog. I just was like, all of a sudden there was dog. And it took me consciously a couple seconds to just move past it, not let my mind kind of go down that road of thinking about it, or.

Kenna Millea [00:46:43]:
Do I need to. Oh, gosh, I got to get his vet. He needs his heartworm medicine. He's.

Trisha McKeever [00:46:48]:
Yes.

Pat Millea [00:46:49]:
And if I could get you a glimpse into the mind of a rocket man in that moment and be like, oh, yeah, we have dogs. Just moving on. You know, it's different responses I'm hearing.

Trisha McKeever [00:46:59]:
Yeah. So that would. That was like a sensory break for me, that it wasn't too difficult. But it, again, it did need some attention for me to mindfully be like, okay, yep, didn't like that. I'm gonna not focus on that.

Kenna Millea [00:47:17]:
And I know it's not always the woman who's that, you know, longer runway. Sometimes it is the opposite. And that's actually quite challenging because she feels like the lone wolf in a pack of other.

Trisha McKeever [00:47:28]:
And he feels shame.

Kenna Millea [00:47:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. That it takes more for him.

Trisha McKeever [00:47:32]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:47:32]:
So, yeah. But. But just that there's going to. There's often a disparity. Right. Between arousal time or what it takes. And so how do we navigate that as a couple?

Trisha McKeever [00:47:44]:
I think just normalizing. Normalizing. That there are going to be these differences. There is a gender. There is a gender norm, but certainly not. Yeah. It's not hard and fast rule. Correct.

Trisha McKeever [00:48:00]:
Correct. But hopefully that helps people have the conversation of, okay, what do I. What do I need and what can I appreciate about. About you? And again, the goal isn't for you to become me or for me to become you, but how can we each maybe take some steps to meet a little closer? And I think that's about context. So the context of when and where and how you guys might be planning for a sexual encounter. The context of what am I going to do emotionally, mentally, to prepare the context of what am I going to do physically so that I might feel more. More ready. I might feel that I'm at least you know, eliminating any of these potential breaks so that I feel better about myself.

Trisha McKeever [00:49:02]:
And this is. It's obviously different for each. Each person.

Kenna Millea [00:49:06]:
Can I give a. An example of my own to kind of illustrate and put.

Trisha McKeever [00:49:10]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:49:11]:
Some concrete content to what you're saying? So something that happens very frequently for us is, as, you know, foreplays happening. We're in bed, and I say, like, I didn't shave my legs. And Pat, rocket man says to me, I don't care.

Pat Millea [00:49:26]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:49:27]:
And I say, I care when I feel your hand on my leg. And it's like, you know, it's a rocky road. Like, that actually doesn't feel good too me.

Trisha McKeever [00:49:36]:
So sexy.

Kenna Millea [00:49:36]:
I get. Right. I get that you, you know, whatever. You're over it. But that. So to that mental block piece, when I. When I get in bed and I'm like, didn't take the time to shave my legs or didn't have the time, usually is more the case. Like, ran out of the house with wet hair.

Kenna Millea [00:49:52]:
But, like, how am I going to. To your point earlier about the dog, like, how am I going to, like, get over that? You know, like, so usually it's me saying it, Pat reassuring me like, hey, it's all good. And then I'm like, okay, all right. Okay. The other Thing I want to say is that when we talk about I Forget his name. Dr. Kyle Something, something Jenrick.

Kenna Millea [00:50:11]:
Okay with that, with that long period of that self arousal is that has actually become part of how I prepare for sex. Because we utilize NFP, I'm pretty clear on the days that, that I know that it's going to happen and we, we, you know, tend to be in the green zone and we're communicating about it and Pat knows and so that is like that morning I'm thinking about that night already and throughout that day I think it really does set me in this mindset of like I am actively choosing to see the good in you. I'm actively choosing to see like how good you look to me today and notice and appreciate, maybe send you a text message. Like it's so funny how that small thing, right. Beginning at 6:30 in the morning when I decided to shave my legs, like that is Preparing me for 10 o' clock that night or what have you. But an awareness of that break for me and how can I know it, work with it and try to not let it be such a big stop sign.

Pat Millea [00:51:06]:
Well, and it helps me to know that you think like that too because we've had many conversations about. So on the weekends I like to have an Old Fashioned in the evening. It's my favorite drink, bourbon and lots of other delicious things. It's fantastic. And what was it like? It was probably years ago at this point, like three, four years ago, something like that. We had a conversation where Kenna was able to be pretty vulnerable and open and explain like here's the deal. When you have a drink right before we have sex, I know in my head that you're not only having sex with me because you're like inhibitions, your inhibitions are lowered. Right.

Pat Millea [00:51:45]:
You're lessened. But I've got some stuff in my past and in my mind that it is hard for me to get over that block. So that super helpful for me to know. So when I know that we're in first of all the green zone in terms of NFP terms. And I know that in the morning I can plan ahead that even on a Friday night, tonight is not an old fashioned night because I'm going to honor that part of you by making a choice to make sure that you don't feel icky about the way that this is developing.

Kenna Millea [00:52:17]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:52:18]:
And I think I, you know, I should have maybe led with some of this stuff at the beginning. But the reason that this matters from a mental health perspective, first of all, A relational health perspective, and then from a spiritual perspective is, you know, if you. I was looking this morning, if you look at some of the stats around the reasons that there is strife in marriage and the reasons that people say they get divorced, there's you. If you're listening right now, you could name the top 10. I mean, like, pick 10 things that people fight about in marriages, and it's all 10. Right? Finances, infidelity, domestic abuse, religious and social differences. Right. All these things.

Pat Millea [00:52:54]:
But sexual intimacy and usually lack thereof is on almost every list that you'll find. Right. So this is a major player in relational health, which is a contributor to mental health. And this is stuff that people carry around. And especially in a world where sex is. It seems to be all we talk about unless it's the stuff that actually matters. And then nobody talks about it. Nobody talks about the things that they personally are struggling with because that is not socially acceptable.

Pat Millea [00:53:23]:
We can talk about it and we're shown it all day long out in the culture around us, but not in a way that's tethered to reality. So it's this massively important marital mental health topic, first of all. And then spiritually, I think the beauty of having believers in the gospel of Jesus Christ talking about arousal is, God willing. And this is part of our intention for this whole series, Kenna, is allowing people of faith to have open conversations about their human desires and bodies and relationships and needs that are not inherently bad things. Like you said, Trisha, none of these types of arousal are bad. None of the, you know, the rightly ordered sexual desires that we have for our spouse are bad as long as they're directed toward the good of our spouse and the union of the marriage. So for me, I know, and I think for a lot of Catholics, for a lot of Christians, it can be a really significant hurdle to get over to acknowledge. Like, all right, Jesus wants to hear about my arousal.

Pat Millea [00:54:32]:
It's going to take a while for me to be comfortable with that prayer. But I believe that there's a conversation to be had, you know?

Trisha McKeever [00:54:39]:
Yeah, it's. It's a holy conversation.

Pat Millea [00:54:42]:
Well, we love ending any episode with what we call a challenge by choice. Some kind of, like, practical, actionable thing that people can attempt to kind of move in the right direction. What's a. What's a good challenge by choice that you would propose in this area, Trisha?

Trisha McKeever [00:54:58]:
So I really love the question of what is my view of God? And I know that sounds really broad, but what is my view of the God who Created my body. The God who created sexuality, The God who created marriage. What is my view of that? God who said he created me in his image, and he said that I am good. And so asking some of those questions, I would encourage folks to notice where there's some tension or where there might be some disembodiment. Like, they just kind of want to let that part of the reality float away. Like, I don't. I'm just not going to think about God in that way.

Pat Millea [00:55:49]:
Yeah.

Trisha McKeever [00:55:51]:
So noticing some of that. I think our view of. Our view of God is so foundational in embracing our sexuality, being able to then be sexual with our partner. I think it's so foundational. And if I can sneak another little one in there.

Pat Millea [00:56:08]:
Oh, yeah, please. Yep.

Trisha McKeever [00:56:11]:
It would just be to identify some of those blocks or brakes that you might be most susceptible to. So whether that is your view of yourself, whether that is time of day context, whether that is something. Something sensory. There's. There's a lot of resources on this. Emily Nagoski wrote a book called Come As You Are, and so I do recommend that book. She talks in depth about the brakes and the accelerator, using that analogy for the dual control system. So identifying one or two breaks for yourself just so that you can have more awareness of that on her website.

Trisha McKeever [00:57:00]:
I think she has some worksheets that are. That are there. So nice. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:57:05]:
That's fun. That's great. I love it. I love it.

Kenna Millea [00:57:08]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:57:09]:
Well, my dear, what are you doing tonight?

Kenna Millea [00:57:13]:
Taking a bunch of children by myself.

Pat Millea [00:57:14]:
While you go to a wedding. I am going to a wedding of two former youth from when I was youth minister. Maybe I'll just tell them about all this stuff.

Trisha McKeever [00:57:22]:
That's so sweet.

Pat Millea [00:57:23]:
Hey, guys, come over here. I have a conversation for you.

Trisha McKeever [00:57:26]:
This is my gift for you guys.

Kenna Millea [00:57:28]:
Yes. Sneak peek. First release.

Pat Millea [00:57:31]:
I didn't buy you a gift, but good news. Boy, do I have wisdom for you. Wait a few weeks for a podcast episode. No, I need to buy them a gift still. We'll do that, too. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:57:40]:
This is what happens when you go.

Kenna Millea [00:57:41]:
To a wedding by yourself.

Kenna Millea [00:57:42]:
I'm unaware of. I was like, when is. I was like, when is the reception? He's like, I don't know. I was like, cool.

Pat Millea [00:57:48]:
This is one more example of healthy dependence. Like, do you think you want to get him a gift? Like, oh, yeah, I suppose they need that, don't they? Yeah.

Trisha McKeever [00:57:56]:
Different skills.

Pat Millea [00:57:58]:
Seriously, dude. Trisha, what a joy. Thanks so much for being with us. Thanks for your practice. Thanks for your faith. And thanks for your presence here.

Kenna Millea [00:58:05]:
Yeah.

Trisha McKeever [00:58:06]:
Loved it. Thanks for having me.

Pat Millea [00:58:07]:
Yep. Friends, buckle up because we're not done yet. Episode 3 of this three part series on sex is coming with Monica and Renzo Ortega. So stay tuned for that. Why don't we pray? I'll send us off to go have a conversation. Have a conversation with our Lord. I had no idea where the train of that.

Kenna Millea [00:58:28]:
You just really left that out without thinking that through. That's cool.

Pat Millea [00:58:31]:
Oh, let's pray. My goodness. Name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, Amen. Heavenly Father, you are. You are the good God. You are the creator of all that is good. You are the creator and the designer of our bodies, our hearts, our souls, our relationships, our marriages. And you have created and designed each of our spouses in your image and likeness as well.

Pat Millea [00:58:57]:
So, Lord, we thank you for that creativity. We thank you for your generosity, for your providence, and for this call to share love with our spouse. Lord, we ask for your grace to be with all of us. Help us to be, to be honest with ourselves, to be honest with you about where we are, about where we feel wounded and weak and helpless. We ask for the grace and the courage and the humility, Lord, to be open and honest with our spouses as well, that we can face vulnerability with the courage and the strength that can only come from you. And that we can maintain a spirit of hope, Lord, in the places that feel dark and hopeless and desolate right now. Lord, please meet us in our desires, in our dreams.

Pat Millea [00:59:47]:
We pray that we might align our will with yours, Lord, so that we can love more completely in our marriages and so that we can love you more perfectly as well. Lord Jesus, we ask this and we bring all of this to you in your holy name. Amen.

Trisha McKeever [01:00:04]:
Amen.

Pat Millea [01:00:05]:
Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Good conversation, ladies. Good talk. God bless you both, friends. Thank you so much for listening. You can check out the show notes for this episode by clicking the link below in the description or by going to thiswholelifepodcast.com you can check us out on Instagram and on Facebook @thiswholelifepodcast and you can find all kinds of resources there about the conversations that we're having about ways to be more connected in your marriage and in your own healthy sexual relationship. And until episode three on sex, we will see you next time.

Pat Millea [01:00:39]:
God bless you.

Kenna Millea [01:00:39]:
God bless you. This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center for Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Pat Millea [01:01:07]:
I am always louder than you therapists are. So we are good to go.

Kenna Millea [01:01:14]:
Even on the episode, as much as he edits, it's like. And then Kenna started talking, and then Pat came in. Hey, everybody.