Ep84 Holy Sex, part 3: Expectations, Desires & NFP w/ Renzo & Monica Ortega

"Each family finds within itself a summons that cannot be ignored, and that specifies both its dignity and its responsibility: family, become what you are."
~ St. John Paul II, Familiaris Consortio, §17

How do I acknowledge and communicate my sexual desires & needs?
What do I do when my expectations about sex in marriage are unmet?
Is it possible to keep the spark alive while practicing NFP?

In episode 84, Pat and Kenna welcome Monica & Renzo Ortega for the final installment of their “Holy Sex” series. Together, they dive into the nitty-gritty realities of sex, intimacy, and marriage from a faith-filled, honest perspective. The conversation explores expectations versus reality, navigating communication, vulnerability, and the unique challenges of practicing NFP, whether trying to achieve or avoid pregnancy. The Ortegas share personal stories and offer compassionate advice for couples wrestling with unmet expectations, shame, or the need for deeper connection. This episode is rich with practical wisdom, laughter, and encouragement, inviting couples to have those hard-but-holy conversations and rediscover the gift of authentic intimacy in marriage.

Renzo & Monica Ortega have been married since 2012 and have 5 kids. They facilitate youth and marriage prep ministry for their home parish and they love to talk about all things marriage and family life on their podcast: Two Become Family. They've also co-authored a book entitled Lovemaking: How to talk about sex with your spouse (a guide for everyday Catholics).

Episode 84 Show Notes

Chapters:

0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
13:50: A faithful & practical approach to sex
19:39: Expectations vs. Reality in sex
32:06: Challenges with NFP when trying to become pregnant
42:56: What about sex when you're using to NFP to rightly avoid pregnancy?
53:13: Challenge By Choice

Reflection Questions:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. If you're married, what were your expectations around sex before marriage? How have the played out so far?
3. How has your background or upbringing shaped your views on sex, and how have those views influenced your relationship?
4. How has striving for chastity within marriage challenged or changed your understanding of love and self-gift?
5. What’s one “hard conversation” about intimacy, fertility, or expectations that you’ve been avoiding with your spouse? How might you create space for that discussion?

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 13:50 A faithful & practical approach to sex
• 19:39 Expectations vs. Reality in sex
• 32:06 Challenges with NFP when trying to become pregnant
• 42:56 What about sex when you're using to NFP to rightly avoid pregnancy?
• 53:13 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Monica Ortega [00:00:00]:
Those intimate conversations not only lead to deeper intimacy interpersonally, but they enhance your sexual experience because now you're more vulnerable and you're more. You know each other better and you know each other more deeply. So it's. It goes beyond the physical.

Kenna Millea [00:00:21]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast. Along with my husband, Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician and leader. We invite you to our kitchen table. Okay. Not literally, but you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes. We're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes. It's not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care.

Kenna Millea [00:01:01]:
So let's get talking about This Whole Life.

Pat Millea [00:01:14]:
Welcome back to This Whole Life, friends. It is a glorious Friday where we are. I don't really know where you are, but I'm really glad that you are here with us today, wherever you find yourself. Kenna, my love, how are you?

Kenna Millea [00:01:27]:
I am good. It's Friday, as you said, and it's homecoming Friday for our kids.

Pat Millea [00:01:31]:
Homecoming Friday.

Kenna Millea [00:01:32]:
It is a big stinking deal in a Pre K through 12 school. Like all hands on deck.

Pat Millea [00:01:38]:
I never, I literally, I mean, our kids have gone to this school their entire lives. Until you said that, I never thought about how, you know, probably a little unique it is to have kindergartners and first graders participating in homecoming week with the high schoolers. That's funny. Yeah. Oh, that's great. That's great. Well, friends, this is part three of our three part episode on the beauty and some of the challenges associated with sex. We've talked to Vonda and Daniel in episode one about the great news about sex.

Pat Millea [00:02:10]:
We talked to Trisha in episode two about types of arousal and what arousal looks like especially, especially in marriages. And today we get to dive into just some really great miscellaneous good stuff. Getting kind of nitty gritty about what sex looks like in relationships, in marriages. And we've got a couple of, may I say, experts with us. We've got Renzo and Monica Ortega. Renzo, Monica, great to have you with us. How are you guys?

Monica Ortega [00:02:36]:
We're happy to be here. I don't know about experts, but we are experienced. Experienced.

Pat Millea [00:02:43]:
Now that is the alliteration that we like.

Kenna Millea [00:02:45]:
That's Good empirical experts.

Pat Millea [00:02:47]:
That's right. Yep. Well, for those of you who are not familiar with Monica and Renzo, they have been married for nearly 13 years at this point. They have five kids, and they facilitate youth and marriage prep ministry for their home parish. And they just love to talk about all things marriage and family life on their own podcast called Two Become Family. And they've also co authored a book entitled Lovemaking how to talk about sex with your spouse, A guide for everyday Catholics. So, again, you don't have to say experts. I can say experts because you wrote a book, and I'm pretty sure that's the.

Pat Millea [00:03:21]:
That's the title you get. As you guys know, we love to just get to know our guests, especially with a bit of a high and hard to start the episode. Monica, do you mind kicking us off? Ladies first?

Monica Ortega [00:03:31]:
Sure. Yeah. So high recently is we started the new school year. We do a homeschool hybrid. So our kids go to school two days a week, and then we're home the other days a week. And one of our kiddos has a particularly hard time with the. The going to school, the, like, transition of leaving home and going to school and the socialization and. And yeah, transitions are hard for them.

Monica Ortega [00:03:57]:
And this school year has been a lot smoother for them, which makes everybody a lot happier. So that's definitely a high because I'm just glad that a lot of the effort and the work we've been putting in to them being more comfortable and confident is showing fruit this year. And then also it just like that has a ripple effect on everybody. So that's my high. My hard would probably be, now that we are in full swing school and sports and activities mode, the house just looks different than when you have the summers off and you can kind of tidy as you go and do some projects here and there. And I just have to surrender the fact that, like, the kitchen floor just is gonna look like that until I could get to it and the clutter and stuff. So it's just a hard surrender. It's a good surrender, but it's hard.

Kenna Millea [00:04:45]:
Oh, that's so real.

Pat Millea [00:04:47]:
Speaking to Kenna's heart as not only a mother, but a clean kitchen lover.

Monica Ortega [00:04:53]:
Yes.

Pat Millea [00:04:54]:
That's awesome. Thanks for that.

Monica Ortega [00:04:55]:
I think your eyes twitching a little.

Pat Millea [00:04:56]:
Bit, but you survived just minor PTSD over there. It's no big deal. Yeah. Renzo, what about you? What's been going on for you lately?

Renzo Ortega [00:05:05]:
I'm excited to say these because Monica doesn't know what I'm gonna say. So my. My High is. I was actually very proud of myself able to run a longer distance this morning than I usually can because I'm not. I'm not a runner. I hate running. But a buddy of mine wants me to do a race with him in the spring. So I need to start working on it now because I hate running.

Renzo Ortega [00:05:26]:
But I did it and I'm here.

Kenna Millea [00:05:28]:
So how long is your race in the spring, Renzo?

Renzo Ortega [00:05:31]:
It's a, it's a. It's like a hybrid, not really a race type thing. So like it's. It's like five miles total. But in between there's like an. There's like a strength activity. I'm probably gonna die, but I'm gonna do it for the sake of friendship.

Pat Millea [00:05:45]:
That's why I'm. That's self gift right there. That's good.

Renzo Ortega [00:05:49]:
Yeah, that's exactly it.

Monica Ortega [00:05:51]:
It's like race meets Tough Mudder meets CrossFit meets like a bunch of things. So it's more of an event.

Renzo Ortega [00:05:57]:
We all need friends.

Pat Millea [00:06:00]:
Try to temper your excitement, Renzo. I can see it on your face. Just.

Renzo Ortega [00:06:05]:
Yeah, that's my high. My hard. This is the one I want Monica to hear. I'm dreading having to find a place to put the ping pong table that my father in law gifted us randomly without asking first. So now we have a ping pong table currently in our driveway that I have to find a place to put in the house.

Pat Millea [00:06:25]:
That sounds like the perfect place for it.

Renzo Ortega [00:06:27]:
Yeah, right? So that's going to be tomorrow.

Monica Ortega [00:06:30]:
The neighbors love it. The neighbors are loving it.

Renzo Ortega [00:06:33]:
Where does this thing go?

Kenna Millea [00:06:34]:
Oh my gosh.

Pat Millea [00:06:36]:
Oh man.

Kenna Millea [00:06:38]:
That totally reminds me of when Pat's one of his first like supervisors. She was a great grandma at the time that Pat was working for her. She was a youth minister and she bought our firstborn in our like tiny rambler of a house in south Minneapolis. But our firstborn, like a four foot tall stuffed teddy bear for her birthday.

Pat Millea [00:06:58]:
It was three times the size of the child.

Kenna Millea [00:07:00]:
What are we doing right now that feels like this? Nobody asked me.

Renzo Ortega [00:07:04]:
Oh, yep, totally feels this.

Pat Millea [00:07:07]:
How do I. Why do. How do I say thank you for a thing that I hate? How does that. Yeah.

Renzo Ortega [00:07:12]:
Yes.

Monica Ortega [00:07:12]:
That's.

Kenna Millea [00:07:16]:
Well, many ping pong games I hope are in your future. Okay, my high and hard. I'm gonna go with like two sides of the same coin situation. So I would say my hard lately has been just like. If I could summarize it as being caught up in the ways of the world, like it's back to School time. It's the beginning of football and soccer season for our kids time. It's back to music lessons, like, in a more serious, disciplined way. And so you just.

Kenna Millea [00:07:44]:
You get a lot of feedback around, like, missing assignments and, you know, kids being benched or not getting a lot of play time or, you know, teachers giving you feedback. Like, clearly they haven't been practicing because they weren't any further along on this song than they were last week when I was here. And so just the like. And then I can say the same thing about work, you know, getting feedback from employees. And so the high is this week having a lot more prayer time to just really rest in the voice of truth and to, like, reorient myself of, like, do any of these things really matter eternally? Like, do. Like, does any of this. I mean, I'm not. I'm.

Kenna Millea [00:08:28]:
I'm not gonna say that we're not into, like, discipline and building virtue and character and doing hard things, but, like, ultimately, like, does this really matter in the grand scheme of things? And so just kind of reorienting myself is the high and just leaving Mass and adoration this morning with, like, so much more peace and, like, going into kind of a bananas weekend right now and being like, it's gonna be good. It's gonna be fine. I'm just gonna be present to what I'm called to do in that moment. Like, so. So that has definitely been hard this week, feeling that just, I don't know, cloud of darkness and then now coming out of it and being like, yeah, Lord, like, thank you for that attitude adjustment and, like, just a good dose of reality. So, yeah, when the children enter back into the system will be the real test of, like, how do I hold onto my peace? But for right now, I feel really good, guys.

Pat Millea [00:09:23]:
Great.

Kenna Millea [00:09:23]:
Happy to be here with you.

Pat Millea [00:09:25]:
Today's a good day. That's great. Yeah, prayer tends to do that, right?

Kenna Millea [00:09:30]:
And, my darling, how are you doing?

Pat Millea [00:09:32]:
Yeah, I can finish this off. I think my hard lately is that so. I am knee deep in my 40s and Renzo, Monica, you certainly look younger than me. I assume you're a little younger than me, but maybe this is something that you guys are finding out as well. Through no fault of anybody's. And I want to say this clearly, I am not using this as a passive aggressive comment to my beautiful bride, okay? Through no fault of anybody's, we are in a season where I don't get to see my friends very much. And, you know, some of them live across the country and that's just. We do the best we can, right? But some of them that live in town, it's just.

Pat Millea [00:10:11]:
It's. It's brutal. Just like kids activities. And by the time we get done with work, we're both exhausted. And I don't necessarily want to leave Kenna abandoned to put seven kids to bed too often, because that is not a recipe for success in our marriage. And. And, like, weekends are full, and there is so much stuff going on. These are all good things.

Pat Millea [00:10:35]:
But I frequently find myself just missing my friends, so I'm excited to imagine ways that I will see them again in 2029. But until then, we send, you know, funny gifs to each other once in a while, and we stay connected that way, so. So that's the hard. The high is. And again, I think you guys Ortegas will relate to this a little bit, because you guys do youth ministry in your parish as well. I was a parish Youth Minister for 15 years. Lots of unspeakable blessings, some challenges. But one of the great blessings now, especially now that I'm out of that and looking back on it, is I got to go to a wedding a few weeks ago for.

Pat Millea [00:11:20]:
For a couple of former youth. And every time anybody that I know gets married, it's beautiful. I would say there's an extra little elevated beauty when somebody who I had, like, an intimate knowledge of their faith life gets married. And this particular wedding, you know, the wedding was not any more beautiful than any others, but it's just this constellation of events where two former youth from this parish married each other. So I know each of them very well. Their parents and their families were both very involved. So I know the families very well. They have stayed in touch with friends from high school, from the parish, and they've made a bunch of new friends through college and mission life and things like that.

Pat Millea [00:12:00]:
So it was just a room of, like, 300 people. I knew probably half of them. And all of these beautiful little children of God are now, like, they're graduated from college, they have jobs, they are getting married. There were babies there of kids that I knew in high school. And the couple themselves are just, like, beautifully faithful, super committed to the Church and to the Lord. They know exactly what marriage is all about. There was no illusion about why we're here. It was just.

Pat Millea [00:12:30]:
It was really beautiful. The only funny thing was I came home to Kenna, and I was like, if there was anybody there who was not Catholic, I just feel bad for them, I guess. It was like Jesus was the main character of the story and. But it was still just like joyful, like it wasn't stale or like it wasn't idolizing reverence. It was acknowledging the place that the Lord has in the marriage. And because of that being willing to celebrate and dance and laugh and whatever, it was just really, really beautiful. So that was one night that kind of did have to deal with the kids all by herself. And so thank you for that, my love.

Pat Millea [00:13:07]:
I appreciate that.

Kenna Millea [00:13:08]:
You are welcome. No, I knew that would bring you so much joy. Did you tell the new bride and groom about this series? Be like, hey, for your wedding gift? I have.

Pat Millea [00:13:19]:
I did not, but I told. So one of my former co youth ministers, Lexi, was sitting at the table that I was at for the dinner and we were talking about the podcast and I was telling her about this upcoming series. I was like, do you think I should just say that to the couple? Like, hey, guys, I know you wanted a gift, but I figured it wasn't on the registry. I. I got you a three part series on sex. How's that? Is it okay? Is it not weird to have your youth minister talk to you about sex really bluntly? Is that okay? So, no, I did not do that in the middle of their reception. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:13:50]:
Well, good segue then into today's episode. And Pat, you kind of quickly walked us through, you know, where we've been. If, if you're just jumping into the podcast and didn't hear the first two episodes in this series, episodes 82 and 83, we are bringing this to a close, at least for now. I imagine we will crack this open again because it's just one of those mysterious topics. Inexhaustible. But as Pat and I were like, mapping out what we wanted to cover at this first go around, we realized that there were just several things we wanted to talk about. And we were like, we're just, we're just gonna call it what it is and stick it all in one episode.

Kenna Millea [00:14:30]:
And Monica and Renzo are exactly the people that we want to talk about with this. You know, we've been able to read through your book, Monica and Renzo, and feel so grateful for. Yeah, for, for your vulnerability and for your courage in stepping out and opening this conversation for us as people of faith and not presenting it as an either or, but like a both and of like, it is because of our faith that we talk about these things and that we talk about them. Yes. In, in theological, you know, more abstract, ideal ways and talk about them in very concrete, practical ways. So I'm thinking of this conversation today as, like, what I wish people would have talked to me about before marriage, but didn't. And so 16 years in, it's never too late. Like, I want us to.

Kenna Millea [00:15:17]:
To step into that and to kind of set the. The tone of. Of saying that, yes, we're. We're talking about specifically today, a lot of things related to openness to life. For many of us, that involves practicing natural family planning, which is something, Monica and Renzo, that you have a beautiful ministry addressing. And I encourage our listeners who want to learn more to. To tap into both your social media and your podcast. But.

Kenna Millea [00:15:41]:
But that it's more than just about fertility, right. That. That what the Church invites us into, in our sexual relationship, in marriage is about how we honor and reflect dignity to each other. How through. Through sex, through all that that's wrapped up in that we are really speaking to how much we. We love and. And respect. Respect our spouse and how much beauty and goodness we find in them.

Kenna Millea [00:16:10]:
And. And it's because we are embodied and because we are experiencing things incarnationally that comes out in sex and other ways, too. But just again, setting that as the tone for this conversation. So maybe starting there, you know, Monica, Renzo, Pat, just anything else that you want to add to, like, yeah, this. This lens through which we want to talk about some of these very concrete things today.

Monica Ortega [00:16:35]:
Yeah. I love that you brought up your example of going to the wedding this weekend, because, first of all, that's just a tiny glimpse of heaven, right? Like, you get there and you're like, oh, my gosh, all these people that I love loving Jesus and loving each other and celebrating that, and it's like, I love love. Right?

Pat Millea [00:16:53]:
Yeah, right.

Monica Ortega [00:16:54]:
There's this moment where you're like, I get that. And I'm glad that you brought that up, because I was actually, that's part of the reason why we started our online ministry and our podcast and why we wrote this book is because we have these former teens who are now young adults who are getting married, and they're asking a lot of these questions because they asked teenage questions when they were teenagers, you know, and like, how do I live my faith practically? Like, how do I live that on a regular day? And then they started getting married. They started dating, engaged, getting married, and they started asking these questions. So a lot of this is prompted by them asking questions and us sharing and just finding that they're not the only ones asking these questions. Right. And so I think that that gives us motivation to being willing to be vulnerable because we're all in the same boat of, like, trying to figure it out. And we're doing it imperfectly, but we're doing it well intentioned. Right.

Monica Ortega [00:17:51]:
Like you said, kind of like we're trying here. There are so many good, faithful Catholics who are like, I want to do this well. I love my spouse so much. I see their value, I see their dignity. I want to uphold that. I have my own feelings and desires and needs and trying to put those together and then just still, like, aiming for heaven at the end of the day. And so that's been our motivation in trying to share our experience, not our expertise, but our experience. Right.

Monica Ortega [00:18:20]:
And to just, like, be able to be real about, like, it's the both and it's hard and good.

Kenna Millea [00:18:25]:
Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, Monica, beginning with this reality that as teens we are asking these questions. Right. It's very natural as we are developing to, you know, in puberty, in our teen years, in our young adult years, certainly to start thinking about what that would be like. Certainly when you're dating someone and engaged, beginning to envision that. And without meaning to that, we develop expectations that we come into marriage with expectations about many things, but particularly what sex will be like, how it will go. I think I remember one time a friend in college was like, do you ever wonder, like, do your parents have, like, a signal where they, like, signal to each other over dinner? Like, like, tonight's the night. Like, I have never thought about that and, like, didn't really think about how Pat and I would communicate with many small people running around.

Pat Millea [00:19:24]:
Like, I'm just picturing, like, a third base coach, like, base signs. You know what I mean? Like.

Monica Ortega [00:19:32]:
That's great.

Pat Millea [00:19:33]:
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. There are plenty of baseball metaphors that we don't need to get into. That's probably not helpful. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:19:39]:
But maybe if we could. Yeah. Continue the conversation there of, like, expectations versus reality and, and what you all have found personally, but also ministerially, certainly Pat and I can jump into. But just beginning with that of, of the. The space that exists between our expectations about our sex life as a couple, as a married couple, and then the reality of life itself.

Renzo Ortega [00:20:05]:
Yeah, it's. It's funny because I think when people hear our reality, so whether it be through a podcast episode or a talk, or even through the book, the. A lot of the feedback we've gotten is that they're happy that they're not alone, because their realities are also filled with expectations that are unfulfilled. And then they feel like they're failing. They don't feel like. It's not like we need to do better, but just like, oh, this is. This is terrible. I don't even know where to start.

Renzo Ortega [00:20:28]:
So being able to share our realities and just. And we try to add a little humor to it because there's, like, we have experience. I like to say that we have experience of what not to do and that I'm. I'm a walking U turn sign. Like, turn, don't do what I did. But a lot of our failings have been fruitful because we've been able to share those and share those experiences.

Monica Ortega [00:20:49]:
Yeah. And I think, too, like, when it comes to expectations versus reality, we can have these, like, practical expectations of, like, how often and how long. Or like, like, why'd you look at me? Like, look over there in the corner. I'm like, I'm like, the mood lighting and the candles and the like. And maybe like, the lingerie and just, like, how this is all going to, like, visually and practically, like, play out. Right. And so we have these expectations, and sometimes the reality is, like, those are going to be unmet. But then there's also.

Monica Ortega [00:21:27]:
I think sometimes we sell ourselves short in the expectations as well, as far as, like, how much you can love your spouse. And then the reality is you're like, oh, wow. Some of these challenges that we face, these realities that we face are actually prompting us to a deeper intimacy and a deeper love and a more real one instead of the. Instead of purely, like, the external. Right. So I think that there's. I'm going to keep saying the both and. But sometimes there's these unmet expectations, and that's frustrating and disappointing and being like, I was set up for, you know, these glory stories.

Monica Ortega [00:22:07]:
And the reality is that, like, while that might be true, the reality is also, like, in those unmet expectations, you're brought closer together through intimacy. If you're willing to talk about it, if you're willing to be like, I was hoping for this, you know, or I was really. I'm really wrestling with this unmet expectation and exploring the why, exploring the. Is there something that we should be working on? Or was that unrealistic or unfair to expect that? And I think that those intimate conversations not only lead to deeper intimacy interpersonally, but they enhance your sexual experience because now you're more vulnerable and you're more. You know each other better and you know each other more deeply. So it's. It goes beyond the physical in that sense.

Renzo Ortega [00:22:53]:
Yeah. I also think couples are so unique to like, what their expectations are going into marriage depends so much about, you know, their upbringing and things they were exposed to so early. So, like, I know we went off once on on like Disney movies and why they stay laid a terrible foundation for what romantic relationships ought to look like. And just like it was that your experience, just like the media and the movies and like, depending on, like, what era you grew up in, what you watched and what you thought, what you used to idealize, like what marriage is going to be like, affects those expectations or like, did you get into a very, like, puritanical type family that, like, just didn't let you do anything and then you just didn't talk about anything related to human sexuality? So then you have a whole different set of expectations of what it should be. So I think that's what's. It's really hard for couples to navigate because no one can really pinpoint to them unless they're doing, like, work with specific couples counselor. Like, that can actually help them walk through that. So.

Renzo Ortega [00:23:47]:
Yeah, so I think it's like, it's a tough puzzle to, To. To fix or to piece together.

Pat Millea [00:23:53]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:23:55]:
Well, and I think too about kind of this spectrum maybe of, you know, whether it was the Disney romance or I was thinking of like, rom com, like I was raised on, like, my teenage years were just, you know, filled with watching many chick flicks and like, oh, that's a. They never talk about sex. It just happens. And it's like, magical. And there's rainbows and bunnies and fireworks and all things all the way down to, yeah, maybe more of this purity, focus and everything in between. And then this reality that, that two people come together for. From different backgrounds. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:24:26]:
Usually, I mean, somewhere on the spectrum, but not exactly the same most often. And so then to assimilate those, to integrate those into expectations is really tough. And why I think we keep coming back in all three of these episodes, like, a resounding theme is around communication and why trust and vulnerability are so important in marriage because it demands so, so much communication to even have the space to reflect on, like, what were my expectations coming in? I mean, I literally. This is. Pardon me if this is an overshare, but, like, it was probably like, maybe after our fourth child, we'd been married for, I don't know how many years was that, like eight years that I finally just got rid of the literal box of lingerie that I had never taken the tags off of. Because. Spoiler. When you get pregnant pretty soon after you get married, like, the Body changes and things don't fit the same way.

Kenna Millea [00:25:24]:
And so like, just like, oh man. Didn't even realize how I had assumed that every night would look like a rom com that we were going to have sex. So anyway, so just this. Yeah. Reality of like how we bring together two people of different backgrounds and different thoughts and we have to talk about this stuff. Otherwise. Yeah. You can see where people trip up and this becomes actually a source of pain and woundedness and not connection.

Monica Ortega [00:25:48]:
One expectation that we complain about often. Like, even though now we know the reality is the, like the waking up in the morning afterwards and you're like, you don't just stay there. Like, you don't, you don't have sex and fall asleep embraced. And then like wake up in the morning, you're like, oh, that was the best sleep ever. Like.

Pat Millea [00:26:10]:
You'Ve been snuggling for eight hours and your hair still looks perfect.

Monica Ortega [00:26:13]:
Yeah, exactly.

Kenna Millea [00:26:14]:
And no one has morning breath.

Monica Ortega [00:26:15]:
No one has morning breath. And also like that awkward shuffle to the bathroom. Right. That you're like, this is intimate, but it's not the kind of intimacy I was going for. Right. And so I think that it's, I think sometimes God offers like a little comedy in our, in our expectations versus reality. But even things like that where like you this puritanical possibly, or like, I'm kind of embarrassed and in that moment afterwards of like, how do we disengage from this act? Like, there's, there's a vulnerability and an intimacy to that that we can be resistant to or nervous of. And it would just be much nicer if we could just stay in bed and go to sleep.

Monica Ortega [00:26:55]:
But like, reality is you probably don't want to do that. Right. So. And I think like, we could have these big unmet expectations, but we can also have just these like, little silly ones that invite us into something that's even better. Right?

Kenna Millea [00:27:11]:
Yeah, well, and I, I think about. Yeah, Monica, just the truth. You're speaking about the practical, like, pragmatic elements of sex. And, and like having older kids now where I'm like, we need to get dressed after this. Like, we need like, like we have kids who regularly are coming in in the middle of the night and of different genders, you know, then the, like, our kids are at an age where teenage kids don't need to be walking in on like even at two in the morning, you know, and, and I think this is something you were speaking to before of like, but, but in talking about that, in having like an explicit conversation of why that is there is this deep appreciation of like, yeah, because that is our family and that is actually the fruit of our sexual life is that we have these teens that have been schooled about sex now and, and know why mom and dad are naked in that bed if that's where they find us, you know, like, so. So there is. And my love for Pat deepens. Not because we had some like, yeah, fireworks, explosion, you know, movie worthy sex, but, but because it's like, oh, like I'm sharing this with you and you're the only one I want to do this with.

Kenna Millea [00:28:18]:
But also the comedy. Yes.

Renzo Ortega [00:28:20]:
It's what makes marriage so hard as well, especially with, with this. Because like, there's just so many seasons of life that you're going through. So like you might figure it out as like a brand new newlywed and then like something changes and then. And it's just like you can never, you never have it fully figured out.

Pat Millea [00:28:36]:
Right, Right. Constantly evolving. Yeah. Seriously. I love C.S. Lewis very, very deeply. One of our children has a name related to C.S. Lewis because he's just the best. And I'm reading through The Four Loves right now.

Pat Millea [00:28:51]:
I think for, I don't know, second, third time, something like that. And what struck me this time through is so he gets through the four Greek words for love. Two of them are eros, erotic love, romantic love. And then storge is like affectionate, usually like parent, child love, but it can be like friends. And the image is like comfortable love. Like the kind of love that you can just be at peace with each other without expectations, without a deep sense of need, that kind of thing. And one of the things he talks about is the overlap between those two loves that sometimes they're really hard to even know where one ends and one begins. And it's that like, that image, Monica, is so brilliant and hilarious of like the morning shuffle to the bathroom.

Pat Millea [00:29:37]:
Right. Like the. Again, these are going to be as blunt without being provocative as you can be 8am naked going to the bathroom is not quite as sexy as 11pm naked in the marital embrace. Right. So on one hand, that can be really discouraging. And I know that that has been really difficult at times in our marriage. I think every marriage probably goes through this reality of like the almost disappointment of like, oh man, this is reality. And I am not as attractive in the light of day as I am.

Kenna Millea [00:30:15]:
At night by candlelight.

Pat Millea [00:30:18]:
Right. And like when the emotional experience and the physical experience, experience has faded, I'm left with the kind of more raw reality that shines a light on the things that maybe I don't love and appreciate about myself. And maybe there is a situation where I see even my spouse in a way that is different and not quite as ethereal as I imagined the night before. So, on one hand, there could be a sense of disappointment, but I think there's a move that anybody can make in the right direction toward this storge, which is kind of what you are referring to, Monica. Like that. That affectionate and I think humor, honestly, is a big part of it. Like the comfort of being with somebody that you know so well that you can both identify how funny and awkward the morning after could be. But that's just another shared experience, and you're in it together.

Pat Millea [00:31:16]:
It's not a sense of shame. It's not a sense of accusation. It's just one more thing that you are connected to. And again, like, where does eros end and storge begin? Who knows? Who cares? It just. It's this beautiful way that we are continuing to kind of be knitted together year after year, you know?

Kenna Millea [00:31:33]:
Yeah. Well, I want to go back to something you mentioned, Renzo, just a moment ago. You're talking about, you know, just never quite having it figured out that just when we think we know something shifts, something changes. We're in a new season. And to talk specifically about. And so much of your ministry is related to openness to life. Right. And refraining from artificial contraception and the reality of what that does to practically to the sex to the sexual relationship in a marriage.

Kenna Millea [00:32:06]:
And so maybe thinking about. And we can just walk through this together. But challenges that you've encountered in ministry or personally related to trying to achieve pregnancy, which maybe sounds odd, to put it that way of like, isn't that. Isn't that when things should be good? Like when. When sex is just totally on the table at all times and what have you. But. But curious about. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:32:29]:
Like some of the challenges related to that season of life as you've all experienced it or walked with others through it.

Monica Ortega [00:32:37]:
Yeah. So. So we both. We've experienced trying to achieve pregnancy within our marriage, especially facing some difficulty with levels of infertility. We have five kids, so we are not permanently infertile, but it wasn't quite as easy and simple as one would hope or expect. So. Yeah. So even just personally that season of trying to achieve pregnancy and using natural family planning to try to time instead of.

Monica Ortega [00:33:05]:
Instead of just like if it happens, happens, that's great. We're open to either or. But like the intentional trying to conceive a pregnancy can. Can be fun because it's available much more often than the opposite when you're trying to avoid pregnancy. But that can also feel a little bit like a challenge or a chore. If you're timing and you're like, this is the go time. And it doesn't matter if you feel interested or not or if you're. I'm not quite at arousal yet.

Monica Ortega [00:33:37]:
But you know what? We only have one more day to try this before the window closes or what have you. It can feel more like a job or a chore than a act of intimacy and love. And I think that the. The challenge in that is. Is being aware of that and remembering what the core reason of why you're trying to achieve a pregnancy is to bring fruit of that love to the world. But again, like you say, like, that's the flowery, ethereal part and there's the practical of, okay, but ovulation, you know, the window closes, right? So. And I think that we have. We have heard from other couples as well that that can be a struggle within their marriage.

Monica Ortega [00:34:18]:
Of, at what point is it no longer like a free act? You know, at what point am I kind of feeling. I'm kind of feeling obligated here. I'm kind of feeling forced, not necessarily by you, but by the circumstances or the situation. The timing just doesn't feel right. We're really busy. We're really tired. We're not feeling well, we're sick, you know, whatever. The kid keeps coming in.

Monica Ortega [00:34:43]:
And so I think that there's, again, like you said, this opportunity for real deep communication of what is our end goal here as a couple, as a family? How are you feeling in this commitment to trying to achieve pregnancy? You know, do. Do we need to kind of reevaluate how heavy we're going on the science end of things? If. If you feel like your relationship is. Is hurting because of how you're approaching it.

Renzo Ortega [00:35:14]:
I do also remember because for our first two, we. We have a napro technology doctor who was able to find out at what parts of her cycle Monica wasn't able to ovulate. So she was able to take medicine to help her with ovulation. And I remember that you had a very hard time with that because you were. You kept saying, I feel like my body's broken. I feel like I'm not working the way I should. And that there was also, like, expectations there of, like, how much intervention. And granted, it was all intervention that was allowable by the Church.

Renzo Ortega [00:35:40]:
But still, even the fact that there needed to be any intervention in the first place was very difficult.

Pat Millea [00:35:46]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:35:48]:
We. We have, again, seven children biological. You would not think we had fertility issues, but we did have what the doctor determined was, like, secondary infertility between our second and our third, and that's a little bit of a gap between our kids. And I remember, Pat, I don't know if you remember this, but I remember you sharing with me. Like, I need a break from try. I think we'd been trying for maybe a year, and you were like this. Just. I don't know that you ever went so far as to say, like, I feel objectified, but just, like, I don't.

Kenna Millea [00:36:19]:
I don't feel like you're seeing me in. In the act of sex. Like, I feel like you're seeing the goal of getting pregnant and having a baby. And. And it was. Yeah, it was. It was hard to hear because it was so tempting to. It would have been easy to see you as, like, the enemy.

Kenna Millea [00:36:36]:
Right. To the thing that I wanted and the thing that I felt like God desired for us, which was to grow our family. Like, just feels like such a holy, beautiful thing. Why wouldn't we do that? But to recognize that, yeah. The Lord, in his creative wisdom, wants us to willfully, joyfully enter into this act, to bring forth life. And for you, Pat, to say to me, that is not how this is feeling right now, and we just need to take some time to regroup. I will also say, as a woman, it. And I think we talk about this a bit.

Kenna Millea [00:37:14]:
Yeah. With Trisha and in the episode before this. But, like, the story that you hear of, like, your man will always want it. Like, your husband will always want it. And so then for Pat to be like, I actually need a break, like, I need some space, was like, oh, like, double rejection. I'm already not conceiving the way that I think I should and the way my body should be working. But now he's telling me that, like, he's turned off by the way I'm approaching this. And, you know, we need some space.

Kenna Millea [00:37:40]:
Like, that was tough. And so, again, just expectations, the stories we carry and when it meets up with reality, like, the woundedness that. That happens and really needs us to have a strong foundation of communication in the marriage.

Monica Ortega [00:38:00]:
Yeah. And I think it's important, too, because that. That goal of trying to achieve pregnancy. Right. That is. That is a good. And our marriage is a good. And we have to rightly order those goods.

Monica Ortega [00:38:10]:
Right. So there's there's so, so much of our woundedness, our brokenness, our sin comes from disordering our attempts at goods.

Renzo Ortega [00:38:19]:
Right.

Monica Ortega [00:38:20]:
There is. There is evil, and I'm not discounting that. And there's. That's absolutely true, too. But I think, like, you're saying, Pat, the nuance that's within the marriage, it's like, okay, we're on this grind where we're. We're working towards achieving some sort of goal in our family. And in that pursuit, we've disordered how things are supposed to be done, how the. How the love order is supposed to go.

Monica Ortega [00:38:42]:
And so it can be so hard to hear when you have disordered that in your own heart. But I think it's also, again, this invitation to more intimacy, this growth and in our relationship and marriage, for the other to be that mirror of, like, I love you enough to say this hard thing, and I love our marriage and our family enough to be willing to, like, have the fight, to have the argument for you to feel the temporary rejection in order for the greater good to happen. And so, like, that. That invitation into the hard stuff, I think is also why God designed sex to be a little bit more complicated. Because if it was so easy and it was so accessible all the time and no strings attached, then we wouldn't be charged to really, like, be working on these things inside of ourselves and inside of our relationship.

Renzo Ortega [00:39:35]:
Yeah. When we used to run Pre-Canas and, like, be the only people doing it, we. When we talked about Adam and Eve a lot, we would talk about. Sorry, the only people doing it. Meaning that, like, we work with a team now. We were, like, the only two people. We had to do all the talks.

Renzo Ortega [00:39:49]:
It was awful.

Renzo Ortega [00:39:51]:
But we.

Pat Millea [00:39:52]:
It's a lot of pressure.

Renzo Ortega [00:39:53]:
It's a lot of pressure. Yes. A lot of song and dance to convince them of what the Church teaches.

Pat Millea [00:40:00]:
Yeah, right.

Renzo Ortega [00:40:01]:
But we would talk about Adam and Eve and the line of being naked without shame. And we talked about how, like, physically we're more comfortable being naked and without shame and, you know, especially with the act of sex. But, like, having difficulties like that in marriage really challenges you to be really vulnerable, like, emotionally naked without shame with your spouse and, like, letting them know where you are and regardless of, like, where you are in the journey of conceiving or in love, making all of it, like, being willing to share those things with your spouse and kind of. And we would set the standard for them of, like, if you're not willing to be vulnerable with your spouse, you're not ready to be engaging, you have to be able to let them know all the things that are going on within you. Like, they love all of you, not just the physical part of you.

Kenna Millea [00:40:43]:
Yeah, I remember Pat in youth ministry would say, I forget what. Yeah, I think, Pat, you were teaching, like, dating tips or something, and you said, if you can't talk about it in the light, you shouldn't be doing it in the dark. And I think about that often still in our relationship of, like, if I'm not willing to share, you know, last episode, we talked a lot about, like, preferences and desires and fantasies even, and things like, if I can't talk about those things with you in the light, then this is like raising some questions about what we're doing in the dark, you know, so to speak, in the bedroom.

Pat Millea [00:41:19]:
But, yeah, I would always have to specify, by the way, that just you don't earn your way to sex with your girlfriend by talking to her about it in the afternoon. You know what I mean? Like, that's. No, you're right. Like, that's. But that's like, a fair caveat. Like, I would see some guys, they would initially have the disappointment of, like, oh, man. But then they get that light bulb of, like, loophole. Wait a second.

Pat Millea [00:41:41]:
But obviously the greater point is, like, it is an indication of my lack of preparation for a sexual act, especially in marriage, if I'm not emotionally and personally vulnerable with my spouse before we even get to the bedroom. You know what I mean? And. And I think. I wonder sometimes if that is one of the ways that sex can become painful or even a source of woundedness is when people are continuing to go down the road of a sexual relationship, but they're not keeping up with the emotional relationship in their marriage. Like, when. When one outpaces the other significantly, then. Then maybe sex does feel like being intimate with a stranger. And maybe it does feel like being being asked to give things that someone else hasn't really earned that you don't trust them with yet.

Pat Millea [00:42:39]:
You know, I think that that's a really valuable. Almost like an examination of marriage for everybody. Maybe, like, in that, you know, these are not linear things, but like, my sexual relationship with my spouse, my emotional relationship, are those things keeping pace with each other? Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:42:56]:
Okay. So we've talked a bit about maybe some of the challenges to a marriage when we're trying to achieve pregnancy. And then there's the big one of trying to avoid pregnancy. And maybe talking about it first when. When we've discerned it's for a period of time. It's maybe not for the duration of our marriage or our lives, but at least for a period of time. Maybe due to circumstances or spacing of children or. Yeah, many things, you know, that can happen, life events.

Kenna Millea [00:43:31]:
So starting with that Monica and Renzo, things that, that you've encountered, things that you hope people can hear that maybe they're not, you know, voices that they're not hearing elsewhere.

Monica Ortega [00:43:43]:
You had a smirk.

Renzo Ortega [00:43:44]:
It's very, it's very, it's very nuanced. But the idea that I needed to get through my head early in our marriage was that I didn't need sex. I know that some people say like, well, your marriage needs sex, which I agree. But I definitely had felt like it was more of a need I had and if it wasn't fulfilled, I was going to explode and I could not handle. I used that belief even though it wasn't fully like fully under. I didn't fully say that to Monica early in our marriage, but I remember it became like a license to be short with her and to not be kind all the time and to feel like something was being held back from me and then feeling like, well then that means I don't have to do all the things that I'm expected to do as a husband. So like it became a point of contention for a while. And I think and this is, was like we had three kids, our two kids.

Renzo Ortega [00:44:34]:
We were pregnant with our third or I think we just had our third. So like this was already three, four years into our marriage. Like we weren't newlyweds anymore and, and we weren't. And it wasn't even that we were trying to avoid. It was just like understanding. Like when was an okay time to abstain and when was an okay time to like, all right, we're going to engage now and then. But like the Lord really had to work on my heart and really had to like correct these things that I had believed that were just absolutely not true. And he did a lot of that through.

Renzo Ortega [00:45:05]:
Well, I became a stay at home dad for a year and a half. So that changed everything. I learned what mental load was and what all the things she was thinking about. And just like I, I got to understand her so much more. And then, so, and I was very then convinced of like what love actually looked like. And then the abstaining and being chased meant more than just what I thought it meant. And then fast forward to now. We have five and we are, we.

Renzo Ortega [00:45:32]:
Monica had some health issues, so we are avoiding as of right now. We've just earned to it to continue to avoid. And it's a, it's a conversation we have often, but because of the medical issues that our last one, we've been avoiding a lot. And I would never have been able to, like, I would. Looking back at my young self, I would have thought it was crazy to do what we're doing now, but I'm able to. And because love was able to transform because of my, my expectations and perceptions of, like, what a man should be expected to be like in a marriage. So, like, being able to avoid now is a lot different. And I think one of the hangups with NFP for a lot of husbands is like, we're not going to be able to whenever I want.

Renzo Ortega [00:46:08]:
And like, that's a good thing that you're not able to whenever you want because, like, that's not how relationships work. That's not how sex works. That's not how real intimacy works. But it took a lot. The Lord had to work through a lot of our marriage in order to convince me of that. And now, like, we're on a different side where I feel a lot more free to love my beloved as she deserves.

Monica Ortega [00:46:28]:
Yeah, I think the periods of abstinence in NFP is a really great way to highlight if you're. If your way of approaching sex is disordered again. Right. Like, is it, Is it. Is there some element of selfishness to my pursuit of my spouse? Because again, it is a good sex and marriage is a good. But is it rightly ordered? And I think, again, like, that, that virtue of chastity is the antidote to disordered desires of, of lust and pursuit of your spouse because it's aiming at the greatest good or the greater good for your marriage. So in the discernment of, like, it's absolutely reasonable and it's like, morally okay to look at your family, to look at your circumstances, to look at whatever you've discerned, whether, like, economic, social, psychological, all the things like you could look at that and discern with the Lord, like, this is just not the right time to add somebody to our family. And so with that and the practice of abstinence, you're challenged to really live up to that virtue of chastity that you like that you hold up and you're like, that absolutely is a good.

Monica Ortega [00:47:45]:
And now you got it like rubber meets the road and you gotta actually use it. And I think for us that was where for Renzo, there was the struggle of, like, thinking I needed it more often. And then for Me, it was also a challenge of am I holding sex over my husband as a carrot? Of like, well, if you do the things that I ask or say, when we get to the Green Zone, it's all yours. Right? And so, like, am I kind of manipulating the situation as well? And that's not the greatest good for my marriage. And so those periods of abstinence really challenged us in different ways, but in good ways to, like, rightly order how we were entering into sex when. When it was available and committing to or realizing that maybe our discernment. Now it's time to rediscern, because those reasons aren't quite as. As heavy anymore.

Monica Ortega [00:48:45]:
And so now it is time to maybe transition away from timed abstinence and just go for, like, when the thing. When things are right, it's right. And when things are not, we can. We can say no in freedom or if we're again switching to this, trying to actively conceive.

Pat Millea [00:49:01]:
I had not thought of it in those terms before. Before we got married, Ken and I were long distance for a while, and we would. We would talk on the phone every night, but we couldn't see each other more than. I mean, not even every weekend. So we would see each other maybe two times a month, something like that. We probably got engaged, and Kenna moved from being three hours away to being 10 hours away, which I wasn't super insulted by, but maybe a little bit, you know. But I had always said, like, long distance relationships will separate the wheat from the chaff. Right.

Pat Millea [00:49:34]:
Like you. You. When you are not in the presence of each other physically as much, you have nothing else to fall back on but communication. So if it's not going to work, you'll find out real fast. And if it is going to work, that's a really good test to actually get through that. And I never applied that principle to periods of abstinence in marriage for any of the good and just reasons that you talked about, Monica. But I think that's totally true that, like, it's in marriage. It's not a question of is this the right relationship or not.

Pat Millea [00:50:02]:
Right. It's more a question of are we relating to each other in a fully loving way or not? And what are the ways. What are the things in me that need to be converted that have been revealed in this period of abstinence and what do I need to do to. To seek greater conversion in those.

Kenna Millea [00:50:21]:
Yeah, well, and I think something that's coming to my mind when we talk about, like, temporarily avoiding and abstaining, therefore Is that okay? So when Pat and I got married, we were very, like, open. Like, yeah, we know we want children. So let's say from there until we had our youngest, she's five. So let's say for 11 years, we really did not think about NFP. Like, we took the classes and we, like, laugh because I'm like, Pat actually learned a lot. I remembered nothing. And then we had to, like, take them again after our seventh was born. And what.

Kenna Millea [00:51:01]:
What I didn't realize is between the pregnancies, nursing, which for me was a time of. Of infertility, my cycle did not come back when I would nurse. And then being open to life again, you know, just like, we were like, yeah, we're still growing our family. Like, we really did not honestly have to abstain or practice chastity around abstaining. Right. All of our acts had to be dignified, but we didn't have to really develop the discipline. And truthfully, prior to marriage, both in other relationships and with each other, like, Pat and I struggled with chastity, and we talk about that a lot in some other episodes in our podcast. But so it was, like, 11 years into marriage that we were struggling with chastity as married people.

Kenna Millea [00:51:43]:
Like, we were in a very serious place of needing to avoid for a lot of economic, mental health, all sorts of things, because we did three babies in one year. And so it was like, this is so serious. And also, my very human desire for you is overwhelming. And so, I mean, my goodness, it was years of, you know, speaking to friends who, praise God, were so honest with us and vulnerable, and we're in the same boat very similarly. And they were like, you guys, we're coming on 40, and we're struggling with chastity in our marriage. Like, how is this. And so just to, like, name that and put that out there of, like, it was such a source of shame for us for so long and. And to.

Kenna Millea [00:52:29]:
To have the humility to go, yeah, at 40, you can be called to greater holiness and greater conversion again, even within. With. With your spouse. So just for any listeners that are struggling out there, like, man, you have some.

Pat Millea [00:52:46]:
Some.

Kenna Millea [00:52:47]:
Yeah. Allies in that trench of. Yeah. The. The Lord. I mean, in a way, I'm, like, so grateful of, like, he didn't stop. Right. The Lord didn't stop pursuing me and saying, like, there's more of your heart, Kenna, that needs to be brought into light and needs to be purified, because there were still these ways, these pockets where.

Kenna Millea [00:53:05]:
Yeah, I don't know that I was Loving Pat as purely. But abstinence will surely highlight those.

Pat Millea [00:53:13]:
Well, we could talk about this Ortega for about seven hours, but I assume that you have things that you would like to do with your children today, and we don't want to take up too much of your time, if we could. One of the ways we like to wrap up is with what we call a challenge by choice. Some kind of practical, actionable recommendation for people out there who are wondering how they can pursue a greater sense of authentic integration and self gift in this. So first of all, is there any challenge by choice that you would offer to folks who are listening? And maybe in that too, if there's any kind of encouragement that you would offer people that are struggling with any of the things that we've talked about around navigating NFP and fertility and communication emotions, Anything that fits into a challenge by choice for you?

Renzo Ortega [00:54:04]:
For me, I would say the challenge that I took up when I was a stay at home dad of spend time in front of the Blessed Sacrament and ask the Lord to show you the areas of your life or areas of your heart that are closed off to love, that aren't able to love the way that you desire to love. Because I think him shedding the light is necessary because we can't. Well, we won't be able to find it ourselves. Like, we're gonna always rationalize and assume, like, oh, it's because of this, because of this. But letting him and asking him to really show you, he does a good job of that and it's not always easy. But that would be one of my challenges. Like, spend time with the Blessed sacrament, ask him to show you where you could love more.

Pat Millea [00:54:42]:
Beautiful.

Monica Ortega [00:54:44]:
And I don't want to sound too self promoting, but our book Lovemaking is in hopes of starting these conversations. So if you feel like these conversations are ones that you're struggling to have, I just, I challenge you to have them. Like to maybe just pick one of the topics that we talked about and if you need to blame us for it, like, please do that. Like, oh, I listen to this podcast. Can you listen to minute 12 through 17 so we can talk about it? Like, totally. Go ahead and put us as the reason why you're starting the conversation. And I think that softens the blow of, like, I think this is a problem, you know, and like, blame us for it. Right? Like, go for it.

Monica Ortega [00:55:24]:
I'm. I will gladly be that. Because you have something revealed in adoration, in your prayer time, you. You have this, like, nudge on your heart, this blow on your heart. Like, this just doesn't feel right. Like, this isn't really. Is this really how it's supposed to be? Like, don't keep that to yourself and, like, have the conversation about it. And so I.

Monica Ortega [00:55:47]:
I would just really encourage whoever's listening to try to have one of those hard conversations that you may have been putting off. And again, if you need to blame. If you need to blame us, if you need to blame Pat and Kenna, like, I'm throwing you under the bus as well.

Pat Millea [00:56:02]:
But, like, we can take that. That's great. Use this.

Monica Ortega [00:56:05]:
Use this nudge to, like, go engage in that challenging.

Pat Millea [00:56:08]:
We call that complimentarity in the business. Renzo wants you to go talk to the Lord. Monica wants you to go talk to your spouse. And it would be way less effective if you only did one and not the other. So thanks for that. Yeah, by all means. We wholeheartedly recommend lovemaking. I'll put a link in the episode description and in the show notes so you can track that down.

Pat Millea [00:56:30]:
Ortega's. Where else can they find out what you guys are doing and stay in touch with you?

Monica Ortega [00:56:34]:
Yeah, so we. We have an Instagram @twobecomefamily. So I loved your. Two become one. We kind of played on that. Plus Familiaris Consortio. Family, become what you are.

Monica Ortega [00:56:45]:
Anyway, so Two Become Family. T-w-o. And we write on substack. Same tag and YouTube podcast anywhere. You listen to podcasts Two Become Family, email us at twobecomefamily@gmail. So anyways, we.

Monica Ortega [00:57:02]:
We try not. I don't know, it's not about us. About you and your family. So that's where all. That's where you can find it all.

Pat Millea [00:57:09]:
That's awesome. Yeah, we'll put those links and make sure we can connect with you too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for. For joining us, Renzo and Monica, what a gift that you bring to the church and just, you know, in a lot of new ways, I think giving people permission to have honest conversations about sex and the good that it offers, but also the. The challenges that it presents in a fallen world that. That doesn't understand the place that it has. So thank you for that.

Pat Millea [00:57:33]:
Why don't we pray and then we'll go off to live these things out. Okay. Name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Heavenly Father, you are the author of humanity. You are the creator of our lives. You're the creator and giver of our minds, our hearts, and our bodies. And, Lord, you have a great and a generous plan for every part of us, and especially for the loving relationships that you call us to.

Pat Millea [00:58:03]:
Lord, we ask for your blessing today on all couples, especially all married couples. And we pray in particular, Lord, for any couples who are feeling powerless or frustrated or despairing in their sexual relationship that they might find a greater surrender to you in what you desire for their abilities to love and the grace that you offer them to do that. And we pray for greater openness with their spouse that they might be able to initiate maybe just the first difficult conversation that feels overwhelming, trusting that you will be with them in it and that there is great healing and grace that you offer in those difficult moments. Lord, please bless us. Please be with the Ortegas in the ministry that you have called them to help them to continue being a sense of truth and love for the world and for your church. And we ask all this Jesus, in your name. Amen. Name of the Father, Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.

Pat Millea [00:59:05]:
Renzo and Monica Ortega, thanks again for being here with us. Check them out on Two Become Family friends. You can follow along with This Whole Life and all the usual places on thiswholelifepodcast.com on Instagram and Facebook @thiswholelife and keep in touch. This is not the last time we will talk about sex, but boy was this a fun series. So we want to hear your thoughts, we want to answer your questions and on behalf of my beautiful bride, Kenna and the Ortegas, we will see you next time on This Whole Life.

Kenna Millea [00:59:35]:
God bless you all.

Pat Millea [00:59:42]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin center for Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.come.

Monica Ortega [01:00:03]:
DuckTales DuckTales DuckTales like old school.

Kenna Millea [01:00:08]:
Yeah. I like instantly can recall the theme song like.