Ep86 Gratitude Changes You

In all circumstances give thanks, for this is the will of God for you in Christ Jesus.
~ 1 Thessalonians 5:18

Why is it so easy to feel entitled?
How am I supposed to be grateful when things are so flawed?
Does gratitude really make a difference?

In this episode of This Whole Life, Pat, Kenna, and recurring guest Fr. Nathan LaLiberte dive deep into the transformative power of gratitude. They explore why gratitude isn’t optional for Christians, how it supports both mental health and spiritual maturity, and the enemies that rob us of gratefulness, including entitlement, criticism, and the difficulty of embracing imperfection. Through honest anecdotes, practical challenges, and engaging dialogue, the hosts tackle tough questions: Can gratitude coexist with the desire for improvement? How do we teach gratitude to children or grow it in ourselves during times of suffering? Tune in for real-life stories, wisdom from theology and psychology, and a hands-on exercise to nourish your own spirit of gratitude. Whether this season finds you stretched thin or overflowing, you’ll leave with fresh perspective and practical ways to cultivate thankfulness.

Episode 86 Show Notes

Chapters:

0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
15:38: Gratitude is an obligation of the Christian life
20:47: Gratitude requires living in reality
25:30: Feeling entitled & denying the justice of gratitude
32:02: Practices to embrace gratitude
38:40: Focusing on the things I do have instead of the things I lack
49:23: Final thoughts on gratitude
52:12: Challenge By Choice

Reflection Questions:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. Do you agree that gratitude is required for Christians?
3. What makes it difficult to be grateful?
4. Can you recall times when you (or those around you) fell into an attitude of entitlement rather than appreciation? How did that impact you and others?
5. What are some ways you can foster a culture of gratitude within your family, workplace, or friend group — especially with children or people who may not naturally notice their blessings?

Click here to register for the DBT group from Jan. 20 - March 24, 2026 (MN & WI residents only)

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 16:46 Gratitude is an obligation of the Christian life
• 21:55 Gratitude requires living in reality
• 26:38 Feeling entitled & denying the justice of gratitude
• 33:10 Practices to embrace gratitude
• 39:48 Focusing on the things I do have instead of the things I lack
• 50:31 Final thoughts on gratitude
• 53:20 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Pat Millea [00:00:00]:
What would it take for me to just acknowledge that I wish things were like that, but they're not. They're like this. And as long as they are like this, how can I be grateful for the gifts that are present that are too easy for me to overlook if I'm living in this dreamland of what it could be like?

Kenna Millea [00:00:26]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm with my husband, Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader. We invite you to our kitchen table. Okay. Not literally, but you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having. Once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes, we. We're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes, it is not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care.

Kenna Millea [00:01:05]:
So let's get talking about This Whole Life.

Pat Millea [00:01:17]:
Hello to you, dear friend. Wherever you find yourself, it is a blessing to be with you today. Hope you're having a great day. Evening, morning. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, it's a blessing to be with you two wonderful people. Hello, love of my life. How are you?

Kenna Millea [00:01:31]:
Good, good, good, good, good.

Pat Millea [00:01:32]:
Great, great. Hello, other person that I appreciate a lot, Father Nathan LaLiberte.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:38]:
Have some love for in your life.

Pat Millea [00:01:40]:
Father Nathan is back with us. How are you, brother?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:42]:
Very well. Great to be here.

Pat Millea [00:01:43]:
Good, good.

Kenna Millea [00:01:43]:
It feels like a while since we've been here.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:45]:
It has been a long time.

Pat Millea [00:01:46]:
It has been. Yeah. Because Father's all busy and going to school.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:51]:
And you have more important people to interview. Monsignor Shea and the like.

Pat Millea [00:01:55]:
There are no rankings on This Whole Life. Thank you very much. Never mind that he's a monsignor and you're not. I guess there are higher.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:04]:
We have stuff to do. Yep, yep. Keep going.

Pat Millea [00:02:06]:
Yeah, we've got a bishop. We've got a monsignor. Yeah. We've got a lowly priest.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:12]:
Cleric.

Pat Millea [00:02:12]:
Yes, that's right. A secular priest, no less. It's all good. Hey, it's great that you're here. We are really grateful that you're here with us today, because today we are what we are about two weeks ahead of Thanksgiving as we sit and record this in November of 2025, where, when you were listening to this, you might be three months ahead of Thanksgiving or two weeks after Thanksgiving or three weeks ahead of Easter, and you can't even think of Thanksgiving yet there is never a bad time to be grateful, to consider the value of gratitude in the life of a healthy Christian, and to have good conversations with good people. So that's what brings us here today. Really excited to do that. But before we do that, Father, do you mind kicking us off with a high and hard to get us started.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:03]:
I am totally stoked because my high was awesome. And it's in this Archdiocese right now, and our Basilica of St. Mary's is doing this thing called Luminiscence. And so they've done it over in Europe at a couple places, and so they were doing the bidding to bring it to the United States, and it was between our basilica and St. Patrick's Cathedral, New York.

Kenna Millea [00:03:23]:
Whoa.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:23]:
And we won.

Kenna Millea [00:03:25]:
I want to know the backstory. We don't talk about it now, but I want to know how on earth did that decision.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:30]:
I don't know. I just. I just love it. And so essentially, what this is. I mean, definitely, if you can put a show note, that would be awesome. Yeah. Because it's just really cool. I can send you a video, too, that I took there.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:38]:
But basically, there is a light show inside the cathedral, and it's not, like, profane. It's like, it's telling the story of the building of the basilica. And so it talks about Masqueray and, like, about the faith community and kind of some of the history that was going on while it was being built. And while that's happening, the entire thing is illuminated to the point where, like, it looks like it's being built as you're talking. And then, like, it talks about, like, kind of the new springtime and everything. And suddenly, like, all the walls are filled with, like, flowers that look like they're actually growing. And there were several times, Pat and Kenna, where I was just, like, tears were coming down my eyes. I'm like, this is like heaven.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:19]:
It's like you're in this church, and, like, the walls are, like, melting away into grandeur. Then there's, like, this one scene where there's, like, space and, like, and her basilica. There's, like, this beautiful picture, this statue of Mary in the center. Yeah. On the Baldacchino. And, like, they played off of that a lot. And so, like, the lights would, like, kind of come and then focus on her and then kind of come out. And it was just. And there's a live orchestra.

Kenna Millea [00:04:42]:
So it's written specifically for our basilica.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:43]:
For our basilica.

Kenna Millea [00:04:44]:
Not just a show.

Pat Millea [00:04:45]:
That is news to me.

Kenna Millea [00:04:47]:
I thought it was just like, oh, they just bring it around to different places, you know, they've done those like art museum, like 360 Tour.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:53]:
You'd have to map it for the specific church.

Kenna Millea [00:04:55]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:56]:
And it is, it was, it was so beautiful. And how long is it here? I don't know actually. It's a good question. But I, I saw it on All Hallows Eve, so it was kind of like, like just sitting like thinking about the saints in like the halls of heaven opening. So that was my high. My low is I took six classes this semester.

Kenna Millea [00:05:15]:
How you feel about that low?

Pat Millea [00:05:19]:
Pretty hard over there.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:19]:
Yeah, it's just, I, I, I, I wanted, I'm like, yeah, I want, I'm going to push on. So then I can just do practicum the last year and not really worry about courses and that'll be great when I get there. But right now it has been all of six classes. So that's been great. And that is my low.

Pat Millea [00:05:39]:
Oh my gosh. No kidding. Holy cow. Okay, fire it up, beautiful.

Kenna Millea [00:05:43]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:05:43]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:05:44]:
So I would say this is kind of goofy, but it's a high and hard combo on a couple levels. So we've talked a little bit on social media actually about. Okay, behind our house there are these woods is an overstatement, but like an overgrown area that the city owns. We don't own it.

Pat Millea [00:06:04]:
It's like a strip of woods. Yeah, it's like legit trees.

Kenna Millea [00:06:07]:
Separating us from the next neighborhood. And it's makes our backyard very much feel more like private and retreaty and just it doesn't feel as much like you're in suburbia. And a couple weeks ago, let's say two weeks ago, some teen boys started gathering and building a tree fort like right behind our house, ours and like our next door neighbor's house. And initially Pat and I were talking and this is like the hard, I would say a little bit like were like, what are those hooligans doing over here? And you know, just like definitely had this like very, you know, curmudgeon, old people attitude about it. And then the more we actually observed what they were doing, we were like, this is totally pure. Like they are, I mean, yes, they let their trash fly sometimes, but like other than that they really are acting as community, like being present to creation. It's, it's pretty stinking awesome. And one of our sons, our 13 year old recognized one of the guys from baseball this past year.

Kenna Millea [00:07:07]:
So we're like, they're probably middle schoolers, right? They don't have cars yet. So again, the, the level of innocence is probably pretty Solid here. Like, we're talking six, seventh, eighth graders. So that next layer is that a couple nights ago, I came back from tucking kids in to a text thread among some of the neighborhood moms who were pretty upset about it and talking about calling the cops and, like, what statute are they viol.

Pat Millea [00:07:33]:
Where are the parents?

Kenna Millea [00:07:34]:
They're probably smoking pot and all these things.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:36]:
Worse than an HOA.

Kenna Millea [00:07:38]:
And so it's an organic hoa. That's how HOA got their idea is group text. And so the. The hard was the moment of let's. Let's also be clear that we have. We are also. We are already kind of walking on eggshells with our neighbors because they know that we want to move.

Kenna Millea [00:07:57]:
We've already, in a sense, even, you know, whatever, criticized this. This neighborhood by saying.

Pat Millea [00:08:04]:
And we're clearly not moving because of our neighbors. Our neighbors are great, and they're very kind.

Kenna Millea [00:08:07]:
I actually really love our neighbors.

Pat Millea [00:08:08]:
Yeah, our neighbors are wonderful. But there is this implicit thing of, like, are we not good enough for you?

Kenna Millea [00:08:12]:
We rejected them.

Pat Millea [00:08:13]:
We.

Kenna Millea [00:08:14]:
There's something better for us over there. And then we couldn't sell our house, and we're like, whoops, would you take us back for a good four months while we wait to sell. To try to sell our house again? So anyways, so we're already maybe on. On eggshells here. And this text message comes through. They're really upset. And I turned to Pat, and I was like, do I do the thing where I am the kind of countercultural message of, like, I think this is awesome. And until they give me a reason to be upset with them, like, I'm totally gonna support these guys, and if one of them needs a ride to Menards, I'll totally give it to them.

Kenna Millea [00:08:47]:
So I did, and it was crickets. And it was crickets for a good 24 hours, which, like, after they've been, like, bantering back and forth, you know, 15 text messages in a matter of seven minutes. And then I come in with my. Like, here are all the reasons why I think this is great. And, like, let's praise God they're not playing Fortnite all day long.

Kenna Millea [00:09:07]:
And so I

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:08]:
They started another group chat that Kenna was not a part of it.

Kenna Millea [00:09:12]:
Literally, what a friend of mine said at dinner, she's like, so, you know, they just started another chat without you. Right?

Pat Millea [00:09:18]:
But it's not about those boys anymore if that helps at all.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:21]:
Way to take the heat off them.

Kenna Millea [00:09:23]:
Nobody's trying to shut down Operation Treehouse. So anyways, they did. Some of the moms did. One of the moms did come back and say, I really appreciate your perspective. That's really helpful. You know, whatever. And to be fair, these are all parents with really little kids. And so I think I do have a different vantage point having teens.

Kenna Millea [00:09:40]:
But it was a roller coaster of highs and hards on multiple. It was getting real meta about the hards and the highs, but the. The high ultimately was like. I literally said to Pat, I was like, I'm gonna show up as my authentic self. I'm gonna think about my words wisely. I'm not gonna say anything critical or, like, mean about that, about these. I just need to, like, let it go, like, wherever the chips may fall, like, I just need to let it go. And.

Kenna Millea [00:10:01]:
And I will not lie, it was hard to, you know, get no feedback, radio silence. But it. It also just felt really good of, like, yeah, if we are.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:10:10]:
If we.

Kenna Millea [00:10:11]:
If we want something different for our youth, we are going to have to be uncomfortable with some of this adventure. Right, Jonathan Haidt. Like, we're just gonna have to be more comfortable with the discomfort of, like, oh, they have power tools.

Pat Millea [00:10:24]:
Yep, yep.

Kenna Millea [00:10:25]:
So, yeah, that's. That's that. And we'll see how long they persist into the winter. They were there when I left the house.

Pat Millea [00:10:30]:
They were okay. All right, let's see.

Kenna Millea [00:10:32]:
They're back to building.

Pat Millea [00:10:33]:
Tough guys, I love it.

Kenna Millea [00:10:34]:
It's impressive. And you, my dear.

Pat Millea [00:10:37]:
Yeah, Geez. How do I follow that? I mean, that's a pretty. That was a long and winding road of highs and hards. I love that. Mine is. I think the high was this past weekend was Halloween and All Saints back to back, which they are every year. And it was great. I am no surprise that or no secret in our family that I am the over the top holiday er in our family.

Pat Millea [00:11:04]:
I am the Clark Griswold of our family. Kenna is very practical. And if I didn't buy pumpkins, we wouldn't carve pumpkins because it would just. Kenna's very not. She's aware of the things that our family needs to be successful and sustainable.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:11:19]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:11:20]:
And stable.

Pat Millea [00:11:21]:
And carving jack o lanterns.

Kenna Millea [00:11:23]:
Adding three hours of carving on a Thursday night, not my idea of keeping things rolling.

Pat Millea [00:11:28]:
We are very complementary and I appreciate that a lot. My high is that Halloween and All Saints for if you are listening and you have tiny little kids like we have had for 15 years. And if you were thinking to yourself, I dread all of these holidays because all of the parenting things are still there. And I have to add on 10 times more effort and activities and sugar and later schedules. Yeah, exactly. Listen. There will come a day where the sun will rise. And just like we had on Halloween night, we could leave our oldest child home to hand out candy to neighbors with her two friends.

Pat Millea [00:12:08]:
We could take another son to his friend's house, and he and his buddies could trick or treat around that neighborhood.

Pat Millea [00:12:13]:
And we took our five younger kids around our neighborhood, and we just got to walk side by side.

Kenna Millea [00:12:18]:
No one was on a stroller.

Pat Millea [00:12:20]:
No one was in a stroller.

Kenna Millea [00:12:20]:
No one's on a leash.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:12:22]:
Children.

Pat Millea [00:12:22]:
Children were complaining, but only a little bit.

Kenna Millea [00:12:24]:
Oh, my gosh. Raining and 45 degrees. I think they're allowed to go.

Pat Millea [00:12:29]:
And it turns out they still want to go get candy. So it was just. Halloween night was beautiful and really peaceful and enjoyable. And then the next day we got turned right around, and it was kind of a great idea to have this huge All Saints party.

Kenna Millea [00:12:42]:
Which we used to host when our oldest were little.

Pat Millea [00:12:44]:
That's true. Yeah, we used to have kids, right.

Kenna Millea [00:12:46]:
10 year, because it was.

Pat Millea [00:12:48]:
Was unfeasible for a long time there. But we did it again, and there were, like, literally 40 people at our house. I think 32 of them were under the age of 10. It was total chaos. But it was so fun. It was like.

Kenna Millea [00:12:59]:
And our big kids, like, helped us host it. Yeah, they ran activity stations.

Pat Millea [00:13:02]:
Yeah. They ran activities. We sang songs, we had snacks. And then one of the best parts was at the end, the Notre Dame game started during the party. So we told all the families that were there, like, listen, we're not going to kick you out. Like, if you got to go, please go, but if you can stay, we made 17 gallons of chili and just hang out like, your kids can play. We'll watch football. And it was just this long, beautiful day of joy and family and faith, and it was awesome.

Pat Millea [00:13:26]:
It was super beautiful. Kids dressed up like saints and play swords slapping each other in the face. It was wonderful. It was so good. So that was the high. I think the hard is. This is going to sound really silly and really strange, but now that we have two different office locations here in the Twin Cities area, just traffic is really annoying. And we've been, like, unbelievably blessed, lucky, providentially graced by living close to a lot of the things we've done for a lot of our adult life.

Pat Millea [00:13:58]:
And now one of our offices is literally on the other side of the metro area. And we have to, like, schedule Our lives around dodging traffic as much as possible. And traffic brings out the side of me that I wish wasn't there. So it is on one side. It's a goofy, shallow thing. Traffic's annoying, but it is genuinely. And this is gonna sound like overkill, but I have to, like, really come to terms with anger and impatience in traffic. Like, how am I gonna be a virtuous person when no one knows who I am? Right.

Pat Millea [00:14:28]:
When I have the anonymity of my car, how can I still choose what is good and right and just when that person's being silly and dumb on the road?

Kenna Millea [00:14:38]:
Well, when other people are maybe not choosing virtue.

Pat Millea [00:14:41]:
Yes. How do I respond? With grace and peace. And keep my peace in the midst of it. So it's a strange way for me to have to confront things inside myself, but I kind of am. And I have a lot of time to do that in the car.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:54]:
I have no bumper stickers on my car because I am not always the best responder to my fellow driver.

Pat Millea [00:15:01]:
Yep.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:01]:
I mean, no finger, no fingers or anything like that, but just like aggression on the road.

Kenna Millea [00:15:07]:
Oh, my gosh.

Pat Millea [00:15:07]:
Yep.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:08]:
I'm not.

Pat Millea [00:15:09]:
Our 12 passenger van is plastered with bumper stickers, which I was really excited about, just to be goofy and fun, but it also. I didn't even ask you if this was okay. Yeah, it was like a bit of a self protective move of like, oh.

Kenna Millea [00:15:21]:
People call me out about my driving.

Pat Millea [00:15:23]:
If I'm going to be a jerk in our van now, I can't hide anymore, you know, like, I need to own my actions. That was part of the move a little bit. So.

Kenna Millea [00:15:31]:
Yeah. And yet I somehow I'm still an aggressive driver and people still call me out at parent pickup. So there we are.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:37]:
Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:15:38]:
But on to the theme of today, which is not aggressive driving 101, but it's gratitude. And Father, you have been so excited about this episode because my understanding is that you have come to recognize how, like, revolutionary sounds like such a, I don't know, throwaway. But. But really, this can be life changing. Like, if we truly embrace and understand it. Right. On both the spiritual level, but also the very human psychological level of, like, the power of gratitude. And so we're like, of course we need to record this right before Thanksgiving.

Kenna Millea [00:16:14]:
I love it also, I think, because we're entering into a time of year where it can be surprisingly quite easy to lose sight of gratitude. Like, to lose sight of the good in a. In a time when schedules are. Are stretched thin and we are feeling stretched, then Our budgets are feeling stretched thin. Time and energy and being among family where we maybe don't feel so grateful toward them. So it feels timely. So thank you, Father.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:41]:
You are most welcome.

Kenna Millea [00:16:42]:
Yeah. Where you want to start?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:44]:
You know, I think for me, I just want to make the. The most important distinction that for Christians, gratitude is not optional. So if you are just a normal human being listening to this and you do not have the triune God living within you because you have not yet entered the waters of baptism, you have a little bit more of an excuse. But as a Christian, Christ unapologetically models it. And we have been given everything, incredible gifts from on high. And not only that, but you cannot be an authentic witness to Christ without gratitude. Because how do you tell people we have the best gift ever been given and yet we're counting every little bit of cost? So I think that for the Christian, like, that's why I really want to start there, because, like, we have to as Christians. And yet I see so frequently within Christian circles, like, complaining and criticalness and, I don't know, like, grumbling and things.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:53]:
Like, St. Paul talked about it. So it's not just us. Like I said, yeah, 20th century is awful. Like, it's like, no, it's always like, Paul addressed it. But there's something that takes away from witness when we are not authentically.

Kenna Millea [00:18:06]:
This is a requisite part of discipleship.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:09]:
It is an absolute requisite.

Kenna Millea [00:18:10]:
Yeah, yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:11]:
So.

Pat Millea [00:18:12]:
So the idea is that, that criticism, complaining, grumbling, that is somehow opposed to a spirit of gratitude. That's what you're saying, first of all?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:20]:
Yeah, I mean, just. I mean, you can't be critical and grateful at the same time. I mean, I think this is where especially you'd mentioned, like, the family time and whatnot. And it's really easy, right? It's just to say, oh my gosh, I can't believe this happened and this person's going to be there. And I can't believe this or the date they chose. Nobody told me anything until the last moment. And now it's suddenly here it is, and we got to just bend to the will and like, rather than like, oh my gosh, everyone's gonna be here. Like, and I understand, like, the legitimate concerns about people's not being convenienced and maybe not even being consulted and things, but to have this disposition of gratitude of, like, all this gift, like, and it just starts with just even the basics, like, how when is the last time we stopped him? Like, I can breathe air.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:07]:
And it's usually not until you can't. That you actually say thank you for it.

Pat Millea [00:19:10]:
Like, right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:10]:
I remember I had hurt my neck at the gym and I couldn't turn my head to look on both sides. Like, when I was driving, I was literally like. And it was the first time I.

Pat Millea [00:19:20]:
Worked really well on a podcast.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:22]:
I'm sorry. That did not show anything.

Pat Millea [00:19:24]:
I was turning his shoulders and his.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:27]:
Head at the same time.

Pat Millea [00:19:29]:
If you're not watching on video, maybe you need a little help there.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:32]:
Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Pat Millea [00:19:35]:
Yes.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:35]:
Very sensitive to others. But it is interesting because as soon as that gets taken away, you start being grateful.

Pat Millea [00:19:43]:
I think about that all the time. When I am sick, I'll be laying in bed and half the thought in my brain is, I never appreciated my health before this. I don't even remember what it feels like to be healthy. I'll never be fully healthy again. And then it's like the. I will never take this for granted again. And then like two days of health and I don't even care anymore.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:20:03]:
That's right.

Pat Millea [00:20:03]:
I've stopped being grateful. I've stopped talking to God about it.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:20:06]:
Yeah, yeah. But I mean, if you think about the last time you were profoundly grateful, there isn't one ounce of criticism. There's just no room. And I think that this is where, like, when we remember who we are as Christians, there is this sense of like, I am right where I need to be. I have a God who is so good. I have a God who's so huge. And like, I could have a lot of things in my life that are not ideal, and I could even have tons of health concerns or money issues or relationship issues. But I have life and I have a savior who has redeemed me.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:20:40]:
And I'm not trying to over spiritualize. It's just for the Christian, like, that is truth and that is the baseline.

Pat Millea [00:20:46]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:20:46]:
I mean, what I'm really hearing you name is like, am I living in reality? Because to only see, see what I lack is not to see the fullness of what is true and what is real. And we often talk about how mental health has to do with living in reality. Right. Like, disorder distortion is a huge component of most mental health disorders because there's this. Yeah, yeah. Misunderstanding, misperception of what is real. And so to be in a state of gratitude is really supportive of mental health. I think one of the things that I'm curious about as I'm listening to you though, is like, so, okay, if.

Kenna Millea [00:21:28]:
If. If we're not in a state of I think you said, can't be grateful and critical at the same time. Is there room for. Within the life of gratitude. Yeah. Disposition of gratitude for a disciple. Is there room for seeing the need for growth or change? Like, you know, like, how can that still be a reality? Speaking of all the cholerics.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:21:56]:
Yeah, yeah, fair enough. So let me give you kind of maybe a parallel kind of example, and I'll tease it out a little bit so I know, at least for myself as a. As a longtime pastor, you could put your heart into working on something, and maybe it was like some event, and inevitably someone would afterwards be like, you know, Father, this would have been really good if X, Y, or Z was present or if you would have just done this or like, hey, you know, Father, I know you put a lot of time that. But like, the microphones are like kind of feedback a little bit. It was just really hard. And you're kind of like.

Kenna Millea [00:22:31]:
Just sucks all the.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:32]:
Okay, great. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Have a great day. You know, you just feel so. So like the criticism. Right. Or the critique is.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:41]:
Is fair. And part of how it is is like, is it necessary at this point? Right. So the reason I gave that story in particular. Right. Is is it necessary? And I think sometimes there can be to. Well, we can always make something better. And yeah, that's choleric. I get it.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:57]:
But like, we miss something too. When everything can be a little bit changed, it's hard to just say, like, oh, my gosh, what I have is immense. So you don't want to make. Was it the. The enemy, the good. How's that go? The.

Kenna Millea [00:23:12]:
Oh, don't make perfect the enemy of the good.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:13]:
Perfect the enemy. It's like, yeah, we can always progress in things. And like, in fact, actually, as we progress, we become grateful. Right. I was like, hey, I've really been working on this. My spouse. And they're like, yeah, I could tell. And I'm really grateful that doing that you're.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:27]:
You're grateful and I'm grateful and like, so there can be that dialogue, but it, it's always timed because it's ordered to the good.

Kenna Millea [00:23:35]:
Say that again.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:36]:
Yep, yep, Absolutely. So the, The. The. The order to the good part.

Kenna Millea [00:23:41]:
Yeah, yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:42]:
So whenever we're offering, like, feedback of like, hey, we could come a little bit better, you want it to be ordered to the good. And so it comes at the right time. And so it would actually inevitably add to gratitude because you're like, oh, I didn't think of that. Like, that's really Good versus, like, an event just happened and now you're, like, ripping it apart.

Kenna Millea [00:24:00]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:00]:
Or someone's trying to do something. It's not never good enough.

Kenna Millea [00:24:04]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:04]:
So, I mean, I think this is part of where, you know, prudence governs all virtues. But I do think that there's some times where I think we lead with criticism rather than gratitude. And so it does get that disordered nature.

Kenna Millea [00:24:16]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:24:17]:
I'm wondering how kind of in. In a clinical setting, how gratitude or lack thereof comes up with clients. I would assume that there are probably a lot of times that I'm not in the sessions. Maybe there's criticism once in a while. What are ways that you try to move people toward gratitude, that you try to help them live out gratitude in any kind of practical ways in their lives? How is that connected to people's daily mental health?

Kenna Millea [00:24:44]:
I mean, honestly, a really simple thing to consider. And Gottman talks about this in his Four Horsemen, but when we use absolute language like, you never xyz, it doesn't leave the room for the fact that, like, yeah, sometimes he does remember to take out the trash without you asking, or you always speak ill of my mother. There are some times when he does really kind, loving, selfless things for your mom, even though she's kind of mean to him. So. So part of it is, again, I just. I'm beating on the strum, but, like, stepping into reality and, like, leaving room for the poss. That it's not always negative, not always bad, not always something to be criticized. And so just being mindful of, like, how we're speaking about that.

Kenna Millea [00:25:30]:
You know, we've talked about narratives, like the story we tell ourselves. Yeah. If I. If I say to myself, he never does the following. Well, yeah, I'm going to be in an ungrateful, really crabby place about that. The other thing is to consider. And I don't know if we want to talk about this, Father, but, like, how does being ungrateful serve us?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:54]:
Like.

Kenna Millea [00:25:55]:
Like, psychologically speaking, like, why are we.

Pat Millea [00:25:58]:
Motivated to be ungrateful?

Kenna Millea [00:26:00]:
What. What subconsciously might we be getting out of? Not having to be grateful. Not acknowledging that he does often take out the trash without me asking, what might that be Serving.

Pat Millea [00:26:13]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:26:13]:
Moving forward, Father. Thoughts on that?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:15]:
No, I have a lot of thoughts. I'm sure you have some. Do you want to give any of your thoughts?

Pat Millea [00:26:18]:
No, you go first. I've got some thoughts, but you start.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:21]:
Okay. All right. I. I think that it's this disposition that I'm owed something is like, I. This Is this is owed to me. Right. Is so, okay. You never take entitlement.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:33]:
Yeah, that's another way to say it for sure. But it's just kind of like. And this is why. So gratitude in the summa is linked to justice.

Kenna Millea [00:26:43]:
Okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:44]:
And the reason why. Right. Is gratitude's actually a just response to be given a gift.

Pat Millea [00:26:50]:
And so giving someone what they are due would give justice.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:53]:
Correct. Right.

Pat Millea [00:26:54]:
And if someone is due gratitude because they have bestowed upon you a gift, there's a relationship with justice there, obviously.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:00]:
Correct. Yeah. Yeah. So Aquinas talks about it, and then he, like, dives in even deeper to go under religion. Right. Of how God has given us all things, so what do we have to give him is worship. Right. And praise is actually itself a form of gratitude.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:11]:
But I think that part of where this gets distorted is we think that things are owed to us. And so, like, I mean, I think I've actually seen this even among some of my brother priests where they call it the priest reach. So, you know, a family brings you out for dinner, and then, like, right at the end of the meal, you kind of lean over and, like, reach for your wallet, but you don't actually get all the way there. Oh, Father. No, no. We got this for you.

Kenna Millea [00:27:35]:
Was it the T. Rex arm?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:36]:
The T. Rex arms. People draw the alligator arm. Let me just grab this. And, I mean, it doesn't just happen with, like, you know, priests or seminarians, but, like, I think that there is, like, this sense of, like, you know, oh, I've served you, and so now I get this.

Kenna Millea [00:27:49]:
Okay.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:50]:
Or I've done this, and so I get this. And I mean, you see this even, like, around young kids, you have to teach them and break them from this. Right? As they have a birthday party and people give them gifts.

Kenna Millea [00:27:59]:
Oh, man.

Pat Millea [00:28:00]:
And on a podcast, they can't see your face right now either.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:28:03]:
Just a lot. You probably hear the size, like, yeah, but they think that this is owed to me because it's my birthday. You're celebrating me. And so you have to train them. No, no. Now you have to go write thank you cards, or you have to stop and say thank you to each person. And you have to train kids for that. And so anytime you have to train kids, you actually see where there's a need to teach virtue.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:28:26]:
So the justice piece, what I'm owed is the default. Right? All kids know what's owed to them.

Kenna Millea [00:28:35]:
It's interesting because, honestly, I don't know. The last time that I went to confession without talking about a Sense of entitlement. Like, different ways that entitlement related to my anger. Like, my anger definitely is connected to this sense of like, what's the violation? The violation is like, I expect you, you owe being a good kid to me. You owe being. You owe to me being obedient and docile and coming the first time I call you, you know, and so now I'm giving my anger. But. But that idea of like, we really live in a culture of entitlement.

Kenna Millea [00:29:08]:
And as you describe it, Father of like, we have to train our children when we're young. And I'm just like, wow. Like, we are a developmentally arrested culture. Like, we weren't trained when we were young. And so we continue as a 43 year old. I persist with the attitude of a 4 year old of like, you all owe me. Which is also why we don't do birthday parties. Because that's a huge.

Kenna Millea [00:29:27]:
One of my huge pet peeves is that my kids are like, yeah, and if I have a party, people will bring me things. And I'm like, that is not the point. The point is to celebrate your life. But anyways, so yeah, yeah. Just thinking about this, like on a.

Pat Millea [00:29:39]:
Cultural level, I wonder about that sometimes. With the gospel reading for mass on Thanksgiving Day every year is the 10 lepers who were healed and only one comes back to thank Jesus for his healing. And you know, there are lots of beautiful things about the one leper coming back. But Jesus always asks him in that. Always. He did it once and now we read it every year.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:02]:
He asks, but it's in four gospels.

Pat Millea [00:30:03]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:03]:
Or not with three.

Pat Millea [00:30:04]:
So three gospels, right. But he asked him, why are you the only one? Where are the other nine? And that is a fascinating question to me. Like, what kind of maybe entitlement, maybe a sense of being owed, maybe resentment. Like I've had to suffer with this and have been cut off society from for a decade maybe. So I just want to get right back to life as quick as possible with not a second thought about gratitude. That idea of entitlement is fascinating about what was going on in the hearts of the other nine lepers that stopped them. There was like a barrier to gratitude.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:40]:
I call it the grab and go.

Pat Millea [00:30:42]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:43]:
Is I grab what I want and then I just go, yeah. And I think that we do that in a lot of ways is what can I get from someone? Great, I got it and then let's go. And I was challenged, gosh, maybe it was in college, it was one of my professors and they said, have you ever gone back to either your elementary school, middle school, or high school teachers and sat down with them in person, not short of letter, but, like, literally went to go see them and say this lesson. This day taught me this, and it changed my life. He goes, I guarantee none of you in this room have done that. And like, I. I purposely then after that, wanted to be with. I wanted to be the one.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:21]:
Like, it's like, yeah, right. I went and I met with my.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:25]:
One of my teachers, my sixth grade teacher, and I. I told her exactly what she had done for me. And. And. But it was like, this is grab and go. Like, I got what I needed. Thanks. Okay, let's move on.

Kenna Millea [00:31:34]:
Yeah. Or like that. That was your job.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:36]:
Yep, that was your job.

Kenna Millea [00:31:37]:
Your job was to change my life. Your job was to make my life better.

Pat Millea [00:31:39]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:31:40]:
So why would I thank you? Like, that's what you're supposed to do, Mom. You're supposed to make me dinner. And, like, why would I think.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:44]:
And the things that we use every day. Right. Like addition, subtraction, reading. I mean, some. Someone had to teach us that. Yeah. We literally use the skill every single day. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:55]:
And we don't even know where we got it Right.

Pat Millea [00:31:56]:
Or if you're me, you forgot the name of those people. Because my memory is terrible.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:59]:
So.

Pat Millea [00:32:02]:
I think about, like, the practical ways to kind of approach a spirit of gratitude better. And I was thinking about that. There was a. At our pre marriage, our engagement retreat before we were married, there were a number of different talks. And we could discuss the talks throughout the course of the day and a half. And one of the talks was a great psychology researcher and professor here at the University of St. Thomas, Dr. John Buri.

Pat Millea [00:32:27]:
And I remember two things from his talk. The one has nothing to do with this, but it's hilarious. And the second one is where I'm going with it. The first thing was he was talking about the tendency of people, oftentimes men, to come home from work and to be frustrated that they have to immediately get back to family life. Right. That they don't have a moment to sit down, to read the paper. It's like 1954. They don't have a second to, like, play their video games and decompress, whatever.

Pat Millea [00:32:55]:
And what he said was, you know, men constantly say to me, when do I just get a minute to be myself? And his line was, well, if who you are is an A hole, then never. You don't get to be that guy. So it was. It was like, snarky way of like helping people like me move toward self gift and away from a sense of a different kind of entitlement, probably. But the second thing, that. It's the only two things I remember from what he had to say. The second thing was, if you want to be a happier person, we know one of the things that will quantifiably help you. And it's every night you write down five things that you're grateful for.

Pat Millea [00:33:36]:
And he said, he's a researcher, he's done the research, and he says it doesn't work for you to just think about it. If you think about it, it may move the needle, but it's not a guarantee. Like, statistically, it won't make a shift in your frame of mind. If you physically write it down in a journal or a notebook or whatever, you will be a happier person in the course of three to four weeks. There's a measurable difference in the sense of peace that a person has when they have a habit of gratitude somehow, which is, as I say this out loud, terribly hypocritical of me because I don't do this. And it's a silly thing to not do because I know it works.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:34:17]:
There's a cool activity that someone taught me a while back is it was based on like the whole. That we live our life always grasping for more of what can I get? And so before you go to bed with your 10 fingers, God willing, you have all 10. You literally will start with your fist clenched and then you'll say 10 things, you're grateful for the day, and you'll end with your hands closed to show yourself open. Oh, open. Sorry, they're open. They're. Yes, they're open. Oh, my gosh, what am I doing? They go from closed to open.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:34:49]:
I'm really struggling with like this visual audio thing right now. But as, as you're, as you, then you. You end with all ten. And your hands are open. And he said that's the way you should actually end your day, because God willing, you're called home, you're ready to receive it. And so it's an open heart of gratitude that allows us to receive eternal life. And I just thought that was such a beautiful imagery, even if you don't do that. But just like having your hands open to say, like, everything I have is gift.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:16]:
Yeah, yeah.

Pat Millea [00:35:17]:
And even theologically, like the Philippian hymn, Philippians 2, like Jesus did not deem equality with God something to be grasped, something to be grabbed and run, but he received it freely that his hands were open. It Was genuine gift, and he was able to give that gift right back to the Father on the cross. You know?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:36]:
You want some speculative theology on that piece?

Pat Millea [00:35:38]:
Yeah, let's go.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:39]:
Okay. So in the Garden of Eden, what would have happened if Adam and Eve would have just been grateful for what they had.

Pat Millea [00:35:48]:
Instead of grasping.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:49]:
Instead of grasping.

Pat Millea [00:35:50]:
Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:35:51]:
So if they would have been totally like, I have everything I need. I'm so grateful, they would not have needed anything else, and there would be no sin.

Pat Millea [00:36:01]:
So is an enemy to gratitude paying more attention to what I don't have than to what I do have or even.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:09]:
Yeah, so that and the justice piece, too. Like, what's.

Pat Millea [00:36:11]:
Yes, right, right, right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:12]:
So it's a both and.

Pat Millea [00:36:13]:
Because God gives them the entire garden. You literally don't have a single need. But then the devil comes in. It's like. But there's that one thing over there. Insanity. But it's the same insanity that all of us go through sometimes when we focus on the. The one thing I don't have and we ignore the 7 billion things that we do.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:31]:
They were perfectly happy until they weren't.

Pat Millea [00:36:35]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:36:36]:
So I was in preparation for this episode, I was thinking about some of the experiences in my life where I can see this playing out and I can see the really, like, the magnitude of gratitude. And a recent thing, because it's been so consuming as all of you just such gracious podcast listeners have listened to us bellyache about the selling of the house situation and how many months were spent toward getting the house ready, then having the house on the market, then it not going the way we want to.

Pat Millea [00:37:10]:
Months and dollars. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:37:13]:
And how easy it was to lose sight of the fact that, like, we live in a really, really, really amazing, wonderful, nice house in a lovely neighborhood with neighbors who really are good. Despite my anecdote earlier, we're allowed to disagree.

Pat Millea [00:37:28]:
Even though we love them.

Kenna Millea [00:37:29]:
Yes, yes, yes. With wonderful children that we love. Our kids playing with.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:31]:
Like.

Kenna Millea [00:37:32]:
Like, because my eyes were on what over there, I perceive to be better, which, by the way, I haven't actually lived in this fictitious house that I'm dreaming up in my mind. And I don't actually know if I'm going to be happier. Let's just. Just be clear about that. And then taking it off the market, because, praise God, he was really clear on the feast of Saint Therese. And so we pulled it off and just instantly, like, the peace and the joy that we all felt again, of, like, for the next. I think it's five months. We are just Gonna love living here.

Kenna Millea [00:38:01]:
Like, we are going to have all saints Day parties. We're gonna let our kids have movie nights with friends. We're going to, you know, just not feel like we're living in a museum anymore and, and like letting the gratitude like flood our. Our bodies, our minds and our souls again. Like, it really was like this immediate change. We haven't talked about it really, we haven't reflected on it, but like just the, the tension because we were no longer grasping and I was no longer feeling entitled of, like, lord, you call me this life, you call me to be at this school and work of this. Here in this place that's far away. Like, gosh, you should give me a house that's closer to.

Kenna Millea [00:38:36]:
To just go. Like, we actually have it pretty darn great, like where we are right now.

Pat Millea [00:38:40]:
What a fascinating back to your kind of drum that you're beating. Kind of living in reality, you know, like, how easy it is to be critical, contemptuous, resentful when I'm focused on the. The way I wish things were instead of the way things are, you know, like, how easy is it to not be grateful when I can, I can. I could list all the things that I wish my spouse were. Like, why isn't my spouse more outgoing? They just want to stay home. Why is my spouse so social? We never sit down. Why. Why does my spouse work so hard or not work hard enough, talk so much, not talk enough? Why do my kids not relate to me the way I want? Why aren't my in laws different? Why just on and on and on and on and on.

Pat Millea [00:39:26]:
And some of those critiques or complaints are rooted in things that are genuine forms of suffering. Like, there are ways that we do get hurt by our spouse and we wish that we weren't hurt by our spouse. Right. But I think there's this great opportunity to go through whatever process you and I need to go through to just ask the question. Like, what would it take for me to just acknowledge that I wish things were like that, but they're not. They're like this. And as long as they are like this, how can I be grateful for the gifts that are present that are too easy for me to overlook if I'm living in this dreamland of what it could be like?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:07]:
Teresa Le sue actually gave this great quote in her. One of her. I don't know which, I think maybe story of a soul, but when she entered the convent, she resolved that she would never say, wouldn't it be better if. And like, she lived that way with just immense gratitude. Even though things could have definitely been a lot better in a lot of capacities in that context. Like, the nuns were so mean to each other. So mean. Jeez.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:34]:
But like, like that whole. Wouldn't it be better if you go through the whole list? You just went through Pat.

Pat Millea [00:40:40]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:41]:
And. And I don't know. I think that we, we, the psychologists call it the here and now. Like, that's where that happiness is found. And in our spiritual tradition, we call it living in the present moment. Abandonment to divine providence.

Pat Millea [00:40:53]:
Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:54]:
And like, what we believe in our theology is God is in the present. And so if we want to be with God, then we have to be grateful because gratitude keeps us present for what we have.

Pat Millea [00:41:04]:
And so.

Kenna Millea [00:41:06]:
So to piggyback on that, we're talking about kind of what are the enemies to gratitude. So we've named the justice entitlement kind of category. We've named the criticism and the grasping, like always looking for what else. On that note, Father, I think another kind of obstacle to living in gratitude is the difficulty of being present to this present moment because it is imperfect, because it isn't totally satisfying, it isn't totally comfortable. I'm not 100 happy with my job, my house, my marriage, my, you know, the way my kids treat me, whatever, whatever, whatever. And. And the difficulty to sit with that. And I'd rather actually fantasize about what could be, to Therese's point or what used to be back in the days when we were, you know, honeymoon and heart eyeball emojis, whatever.

Kenna Millea [00:41:56]:
Like that. That and back to the mental health of like. This is why I think attunement and mindfulness and grounding. And I know those words are very scary to us because they sound very Eastern, but there is a very Catholic component of being able to sit and tolerate what is seemingly intolerable. Right. Imperfection. And to accept that that is the reality this side of heaven. Like, that's just the truth of it.

Kenna Millea [00:42:22]:
It isn't perfect. Your marriage isn't ever going to be perfect. They said I'm never going to be happy with my house like this side of heaven. So I think that we can name as another.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:30]:
Yeah, I agree with you, kind of, and I appreciate you saying that, because I know if I look back at my own life, many of the times where I was robbed of happiness were those moments where I was just like, I was unable just to accept that, like, there are some things that are difficult, but there's still a lot of things that are good. And I just I had a hard time sitting in, and especially because I love to make things perfect and efficient, just to be like, okay, so these things aren't going great, but you know what? These other things are going really, really well. And then as soon as I was grateful for these things, I actually didn't care so much about the things that weren't.

Kenna Millea [00:43:09]:
Yeah, they diminished.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:10]:
Like, I just didn't. I didn't. It didn't matter.

Pat Millea [00:43:12]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:12]:
I was just so overwhelmed and thankful for what I did have.

Pat Millea [00:43:16]:
It's a really interesting. It's a really interesting process, I think. And we were just talking about this maybe a couple days ago, kind of. That it is. I think everyone listening right now probably has some experience where they can look back at something in their past that at the time was genuinely bad or maybe even terrible. You know, the. The death of a loved one, a terrible sin that they committed, a moment of shame of something, humiliation, whatever. And I think everyone probably has at least one example where they can look back with gratitude even for that.

Pat Millea [00:43:52]:
Even this painful, terrible, embarrassing, humiliating thing because of what I learned, because of what I gained, because of the ways that I grew, in virtue, in toughness, in a better relationship, a better marriage, whatever. Better prayer life. I am grateful that happened now. And it's so tricky because you can never tell someone in the moment, don't worry, it's worth it. Right? Like, it's the classic, like, everything happens for a reason at a funeral. You know what I mean? Like those. Those phrases, those cliches, are they. They rub us so wrong because you can't claim the grace in the moment for something that hasn't been earned yet, you know, but we can all look back in gratitude.

Pat Millea [00:44:39]:
And I think there are many examples of saints who have gone through the spiritual conversion to learn to. To actually be grateful in the very moment of suffering, for the suffering itself, which is completely countercultural. It is upside down the way our world looks at suffering, but it's. It's real that. That's living in the present.

Kenna Millea [00:45:01]:
And I think why some of the saints look so mentally unhealthy to us, we're like, dude, what is the matter with you? They were reading St. Philip Neri to our boys right now. And, like, the sacristans, the way they treated him and, like, were, like, screaming obscenities at him and whatever, and he's just, like, taking it. And I'm like, what example am I giving to my boys right now? But no, totally pat. And what I was thinking about is in. In my discernment to enter into the field of psychotherapy. I had Several amazing mentors, Dr. John Buri being someone I often had coffee with.

Kenna Millea [00:45:37]:
But one of them, when, when I sat with him, gosh, he was probably in his late 70s, maybe even early 80s, loved him so much, he would literally set like a kitchen timer and put it in his pocket like, and he'd be like, I'm so bad about time and I want to honor your time. And it was so lovely. Anyways, that's what one of the things I think about of him. But, but he, I asked him because he also just had a really challenging childhood and, and we were really connecting on some of the wounds and the hurt. And I said to him, like, but how did you know that you were ready to go into this work and you weren't going to hurt other people out of your hurt or, or you weren't grossly, you know, cathartically trying to.

Pat Millea [00:46:23]:
Own healing process through this work?

Kenna Millea [00:46:25]:
And he said, when you can look at what has been and say, I bless it all, he's like, then you are ready. And in that moment, to your point, Pat, I was like, well then I'll never be ready. Like, I just, I mean I truly was like, and it wasn't, it was years before I really did start practicing. But, but that has been my litmus test so often of like when I think about sharing something in the podcast or in a talk or when I think about self disclosing an experience to a client, like, my gut check is like, can I honestly say that I can bless that thing, that suffering, that hardship, that rejection, that humiliation? Because if I can't, then there's more work that the Lord and I need to do first before I go public with this. But if I can, then the Lord has given it to me to let it be a grace and I really can be grateful for that.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:47:11]:
Reminds me of Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning as well. This is one of the things that he did with those people in the concentration camp. Is he, I mean he was, even before World War II happened, he was masterful in helping people. He worked in particular people who are high risk suicide patients because he was so good at helping people have meaning. And this is what he was doing for those people who had absolutely despairing is just saying like there actually is things that are worth living for even in the midst of the suffering. And a pretty substantial component is to be grateful for the presence of what you had having each other. And you know, Frankl does a great job in man's teach for meaning. But that was one of the components, one of the ingredients.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:47:55]:
And I mean, going back to my initial comment about Christianity, you have to be grateful. I think this is part of that ethos as well. You're actually not living in reality without a disposition that all I have is gift. And even the hard stuff has a reason and has a purpose. And because I believe that God's grace could touch everything, even the most difficult and horrific things can have some sort of a turnaround.

Kenna Millea [00:48:25]:
Yeah, well, and I think too, of what's the. I think of it in the like King James version, like the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. The idea of, of like. Yeah, if I see it as gift, then when something is taken from me, the, the likelihood that I will be stuck in my resentment, resentment and anger. And again, I'm not trying to be Pollyanna and say like, you're not gonna have upset feelings, you know, sure, but, but the, the likelihood of getting stuck in that place is decreased if, if we really do see it, that that was a gift to begin with, that, that friendship or that material thing or that, you know, period of consolation or whatever that thing is, that, that it isn't. It wasn't mine to hold on to to begin with. And that is tough, especially for us modern Americans.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:18]:
That's wisdom. That is wisdom.

Kenna Millea [00:49:22]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:49:23]:
So before we turn to a challenge by choice.

Kenna Millea [00:49:26]:
Oh no, we're almost done here. Oh no, I have like five more things.

Pat Millea [00:49:29]:
Sounds like we need a part two later on, I guess next year.

Kenna Millea [00:49:32]:
Next year Thanksgiving episode.

Pat Millea [00:49:33]:
Father, any final thoughts about gratitude before we get practical and kind of invite somebody to do something habitual?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:41]:
Yeah, I mean, the last piece, I just want to say, because our fast paced life doesn't allow us to pause, we can't see things well, we just kind of react and respond and it feeds into a lot of like the things like either critical or it's owed to me or these things. If, if you want to grow in gratitude, the best way to do it is just to slow down a little bit. And because as we're slowed down, we can actually see all that we possess, all that's been given. And also too, it puts it in perspective of like, maybe this isn't so important, but if you're still just moving 100 miles an hour all the time, you. It's really hard to maintain gratitude. So I guess that would be like my final exhortation is if you're really struggling to find gratitude, especially if you're suffering A lot. Just slow it down a little bit.

Pat Millea [00:50:30]:
Give an opportunity, even space, to be grateful. Yeah, I love that.

Kenna Millea [00:50:34]:
Can I also have a final word?

Pat Millea [00:50:35]:
I think you should, real quick.

Kenna Millea [00:50:38]:
Because as I was preparing for this episode, it struck me how we do have other episodes, and we can link these in the show notes, because I don't know the numbers off the top of my head. My head. But other episodes that I think are really supportive of this. So the first is we've given a nod to the fact that I am the choleric in the room. And that I think some of us naturally, like, this is a challenge. Like, gratitude is. And to not be grasping is something I have to really work hard with. It is.

Kenna Millea [00:51:06]:
Anytime I am, it's a supernatural gift of grace because it's not my nature. It's not how I was made. And that's not an area of strength for me. So our episode on temperaments, I would say, would be one episode to consider gaining more insight. If you're just like, why doesn't this come easily for me? Particularly as you maybe compare yourself to a spouse who this comes really easily for. And then the second would be our episodes on. We have episodes on negative and positive sentiment over it. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:51:34]:
And so this idea that when I'm a hammer, everything looks like a nail, and when I'm in this place of negativity or I'm accustomed to being critical and seeing what's lacking or what's owed me, that's just.

Kenna Millea [00:51:44]:
Those are the glasses I'm looking through. Right. So that's another episode. We can link up and just say, I think this, again, is supportive of this idea. And, like, how do I cultivate this practically? I think those are a couple things.

Pat Millea [00:51:57]:
And isn't there. Isn't gratitude one of the antidotes to one of the four horsemen?

Kenna Millea [00:52:01]:
Yes. Yes.

Pat Millea [00:52:02]:
Which one do you remember? Criticism to criticism. Okay, so we have a whole episode on criticism.

Kenna Millea [00:52:06]:
We do have a whole episode on criticism and gratitude.

Pat Millea [00:52:09]:
And gratitude is a response to criticism.

Kenna Millea [00:52:10]:
It's way back in the archives, and I'd forgotten about it.

Pat Millea [00:52:12]:
That's great. Yeah. Father, what's a good challenge, by choice, that you might offer to folks, you know, just.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:18]:
Just. Just once to do that ten finger thing. Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:52:21]:
I'm pumped.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:22]:
Just. Just to kind of have your hands closed. Fist. Closed fist.

Pat Millea [00:52:26]:
Starting closed.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:27]:
And then just to list 10 things that you're grateful for. And as you do that, open each finger, and then just feel at the end of that what it's like to have an open palm and just to kind of sit there with a grateful heart.

Kenna Millea [00:52:39]:
And I love experiential exercises, especially for kids. Like if we think about teaching our kids this when they're young and feeling that, that surrender and that openness, like, oh, okay, I love it.

Pat Millea [00:52:52]:
That's beautiful. That's awesome.

Kenna Millea [00:52:54]:
Thank you.

Pat Millea [00:52:54]:
Father, do you mind praying for us?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:55]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So, just so we begin. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Amen. And to quote our Lord, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, I give you thanks. For though you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned, you have revealed them to the childlike and heavenly Father, we do give you thanks that to us who have that childlike disposition, all is gift. May you move our hearts with deep gratitude to not miss one blessing that you have bestowed upon us. For this moment, this second is a welcome blessing to you and from you and for you.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:37]:
We ask all these things through Christ our Lord. Amen. The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Pat Millea [00:53:43]:
Grateful for you, Father Nathan, always a pleasure.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:46]:
Thank you, Pat and Kenna.

Kenna Millea [00:53:47]:
Yeah, thanks for being with us, listeners. And as you mentioned, so much good stuff in the show notes, so check it out. You can find that on thiswholelifepodcast.com stay along for the ride on socials @thiswholelifepodcast. And until next time, God bless you.

Pat Millea [00:54:09]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin center for Integration. Visit us online@thisholelifepodcast.com that feels like that's a you love Andy Grammar. Feels like an Andy Grammar song. 104 it's good to be alive.