Ep89 Family from 30,000 Feet w/ Mike & Alicia Hernon

“Where there is no vision, the people perish."
~ Proverbs 29:18

Why do my spouse and I fight over such trivial things?
How can we be more connected in our marriage?
How do we create a vision of hope for our family?

In episode 89 of This Whole Life, hosts Kenna & Pat Millea welcome Mike & Alicia Hernon, founders of the Messy Family Project. Together, they dive deep into the importance of building a shared vision for marriage and family, exploring the transformative power of intentionality in daily life. The Hernons share candid stories from parenting ten children and offer insights into their Family Board Meeting — a practical tool for couples to step back from the daily grind and realign on what truly matters. From handling sibling conflict to fostering lifelong bonds within the family, the conversation balances vulnerability, laughter, and actionable wisdom. Listeners will learn how vision shapes family culture, hear guidance for spouses who bristle against setting a family vision, and find inspiration to move beyond survival mode toward thriving family life. Tune in for heartfelt advice, hope, and encouragement from two couples passionate about faith and family.

Mike & Alicia Hernon are co-founders of the Messy Family Project, a ministry dedicated to empowering moms and dads to embrace their sacred calling. Before launching the ministry, Mike was Vice President of Advancement at Franciscan University and host of Franciscan University Presents on EWTN. He holds both a Bachelor’s degree in Theology and a Master’s in Business Administration. Alicia has a degree in Education and is the founder of Mary Seat of Wisdom Classical Community.

Parents of ten children and grandparents to eight, the Hernons have made their home in Steubenville, OH for the past 30 years.

Episode 89 Show Notes

Chapters:

0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
12:42: Setting a vision for your family
23:31: Hopes for the future to impact the present
32:26: The Family Board Meeting
43:50: What if one spouse doesn't want to do a Family Board Meeting?
55:12: Challenge By Choice

Reflection Questions:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. Do you have a vision for your family? Can you and your spouse both articulate that vision to your children & others?
3. What daily issues are most likely to get you stuck in the urgent instead of the important?

Click here to register for the DBT group from Jan. 20 - March 24, 2026 (MN & WI residents only)

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 12:42 Setting a vision for your family
• 23:31 Hopes for the future to impact the present
• 32:26 The Family Board Meeting
• 43:50 What if one spouse doesn't want to do a Family Board Meeting?
• 55:12 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Alicia Hernon [00:00:00]:
A shared vision for couples is an essential part of a healthy marriage. And if you don't have a shared vision, if you don't know what are our goals, we're just kind of like putting out fires all day. And we hear that from a lot of parents. You really need to step back and stop living in the urgent. What is truly important to us as a couple? And then how can we slowly implement those things so we're not dealing with just the urgent things all the time? Right.

Pat Millea [00:00:34]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast along with my bride, Kenna, a licensed marriage and family therapist. This is the stuff she and I talk about all the time. Doing dishes in the car on a date. We're excited to bring you this podcast for educational purposes. It's not therapy or a substitute for mental health care. So come on in, have a seat at our dining room table and join the conversation with us. We are so glad you're here.

Kenna Millea [00:01:26]:
Welcome back to This Whole Life. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. And in the episode today, I am joined by my husband, Pat Millea.

Pat Millea [00:01:35]:
Hello.

Pat Millea [00:01:36]:
Hello.

Pat Millea [00:01:37]:
Greetings.

Kenna Millea [00:01:38]:
And our special guests, Mike and Alicia. How are you guys?

Mike Hernon [00:01:41]:
Outstanding. Thanks for having us.

Alicia Hernon [00:01:43]:
Yes. We're so happy to be here.

Kenna Millea [00:01:45]:
Oh, my gosh, it's so good to be with you all. And for those of you who are have maybe not yet encountered Mike and Alicia's ministry, I'll share a little bit about them. The Hernons are co founders of the Messy Family Project, a ministry dedicated to empowering moms and dads to embrace their sacred calling. And before launching this ministry, Mike was vice president of advancement at Franciscan University and host of Franciscan University presents on EWTN. He has both a bachelor's degree in theology and a master's in business admin and. And Alicia has a degree in education and is the founder of Mary's Seat of Wisdom Classical Community. And I'd say even more inspiring than all of that. The Hernons are parents of 10 children, grandparents to 8, and they live in Steubenville, Ohio, which is where they join us today from Ohio.

Kenna Millea [00:02:37]:
So welcome. Welcome, Mike and Alicia.

Alicia Hernon [00:02:40]:
Thank you. Thanks.

Kenna Millea [00:02:41]:
Yeah.

Alicia Hernon [00:02:41]:
Yes. I think it's maybe slightly warmer here than it is in Minnesota. So Just slightly, though.

Kenna Millea [00:02:48]:
See, what Pat didn't tell you is immediately after this, I'm picking up our children to go to a sledding party.

Mike Hernon [00:02:54]:
That sounds like a Minnesota thing to do.

Kenna Millea [00:02:56]:
The raw temp right now is 14 degrees.

Alicia Hernon [00:03:00]:
Alrighty. Your blood is just thicker than ours. That's the way it is.

Pat Millea [00:03:05]:
Native Minnesotans would say there's no such thing as too cold. There's just not enough clothes.

Mike Hernon [00:03:10]:
That's the rule.

Alicia Hernon [00:03:11]:
That makes sense.

Kenna Millea [00:03:12]:
We're gonna test that theory.

Pat Millea [00:03:13]:
Yeah, I would haggle with that a little bit, but, you know, they're pretty firm on that.

Kenna Millea [00:03:19]:
So to. To get things rolling today, I'm wondering, Alicia, if you would be willing to begin with your high and hard of life lately.

Alicia Hernon [00:03:28]:
Well, my. I'll start off with the hard is that I have been basically fighting off a cold for, like, a week, and I. I feel like I'm like. I'm, like, right on the edge. I'm like, no, I'm not giving in. I'm not giving in because I just have too much to do this time of year, you know? So that's probably a low, is that I'm just. I'm really just trying to. I'm struggling there.

Alicia Hernon [00:03:49]:
But one of my high is I actually just came back from spending a couple days with my youngest sister who just had her sixth baby. So a beautiful little girl. And I just had such a great time with my. My nephews and now my two nieces.

Mike Hernon [00:04:05]:
Alicia was helping the family out. She was a rock star.

Alicia Hernon [00:04:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. No, my sister's the rock star. She's the one who just had the baby, you know, but it was. It's just such a joy to just to be able to serve a young, beautiful family like that. And I just love my sister and her husband so much. So. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:04:21]:
So that gift you were to them.

Pat Millea [00:04:22]:
I imagine it's a sweet little visitation of your own. That's beautiful.

Alicia Hernon [00:04:25]:
Yeah, that's right.

Kenna Millea [00:04:26]:
There you go.

Alicia Hernon [00:04:26]:
There you go.

Kenna Millea [00:04:28]:
And, Mike, for you, a high and hard lately.

Mike Hernon [00:04:30]:
Let's see, hard is. This is a. Although probably not as much for guys, but it's a busy time of year for work. Closing the year as a nonprofit organization. There's always lots of things going on. I'm not the greatest gift giver, and so just. It stretches me. It really does.

Mike Hernon [00:04:52]:
Think about being somewhat thoughtful and getting it all done and helping out with decorating and all that. So it's not. I love this time of year.

Alicia Hernon [00:05:00]:
Yes. I think his low was having to decorate the outside. Because I wasn't here. He was, like, pulling his hair out.

Mike Hernon [00:05:06]:
I didn't want to say it. Throwing it all up. I'm just. Alicia makes things beautiful, and I just do things, you know, and I. I'm trying to get it done. Trying to check the box. Right. Anyway, so that was.

Mike Hernon [00:05:22]:
I don't know. That was hard. It wasn't like a low, but it was hard. And then high, though, is for me. I. I'm. I'm a. I'm a creative junkie in some ways.

Mike Hernon [00:05:33]:
I like dreaming and thinking about things and, like, building things. Like, we helped design the house we're in right now, and I really want to get out of our basement. I work out of our home. And so I'm thinking about building a little headquarters, if you will. Creative headquarters. And so just thinking about what it could be and talking to somebody who's a really kind of crafty, romantic, traditional builder and just what that could be, that filled me up, like, just talking to him.

Alicia Hernon [00:06:04]:
Dreams and plans.

Mike Hernon [00:06:05]:
Dreams, yeah. Dreams and plans. That was a high for me.

Kenna Millea [00:06:08]:
That sounds so fun.

Pat Millea [00:06:10]:
I love your summary of marriage, by the way, Mike. Alicia makes things beautiful, and I just do things. That is. If there's not a better description of, like, the beautiful, equal, but different dignity of men and women, that might be it.

Alicia Hernon [00:06:22]:
There you go.

Kenna Millea [00:06:23]:
Complimentarity at its finest, right? Oh, man. Well, I will jump in and say that. Yeah. Similar on this theme of end of year. You know, we're. We're in December, and 2026 is in sight, and so it's this awareness of many opportunities are being presented to us in 2026 and beyond. And it's so exciting. I function as the visionary.

Kenna Millea [00:06:47]:
So there was a lot, Mike, that I was resonating with as you were describing that. And I think sometimes, like, my eyes are, you know, bigger than my calendar. And so it. Yeah, there's a lot of excitement, and that's the high and then the hard is. And that's not the moment I'm living in. Like, I'm still in 2025. Like, I'm still in this place where things need to be closed. Well, there are lots of things that need reflection so that I can do well in the next season, and that's not my nature.

Kenna Millea [00:07:16]:
I want to run after the shiny new adventure. And so the discipline to, like, slow down, the discipline to be reflective, the discipline to be discerning and to, like, listen to what God is asking of me, not what would distract me from this pile of uncomfortableness that's over here that still needs to be sorted through. So yeah, that is the high and hard wrapped into one. One right now. Yeah. Yeah. And Pat, for you.

Pat Millea [00:07:43]:
I love it. That's great. My hard lately is going to be a little bit specific and maybe it's not one that many people can relate to, but it's just so hard, I don't care. In the world that we. So things that I never thought I would have to know about when I was in youth ministry was the insurance industry, the health insurance industry. But now that we run a mental health clinic in the Twin Cities, a big portion of my job is tied up with both helping our clinicians become credentialed so that they can participate in insurance networks for the sake of our clients and insurance billing. And we have different groups that handle those two things. So I'm not hands on with them anymore.

Pat Millea [00:08:27]:
But it doesn't make it any better. And if I was already cynical about the insurance industry before I got into this kind of work and it has made you guys. It has just been like, there is no better evidence of a fallen world than insurance companies that have no motivation to serve anyone very well. If they don't do their job, then the clients don't get their benefits and providers don't get paid, which means if they don't do their job, insurance companies keep more money. And it just. It's so frustrating and it's so disheartening. The bureaucracy makes me think of. Have you guys ever read the space trilogy by C.S.

Pat Millea [00:09:09]:
Lewis before?

Alicia Hernon [00:09:10]:
Oh, yeah, we just reread it recently.

Pat Millea [00:09:12]:
Did you Really? I love C.S. Lewis. That trilogy is terrifically weird, but it's so beautiful and it's really good. And the final book of the trilogy, there's this organization that is kind of like this like evil empire, so to speak. And it really is like, it's a chilling reality because you don't ever get the sense of what they do or why they exist or even how they function. It's just. It's this ambiguous kind of overreaching entity. And it is just.

Pat Millea [00:09:40]:
It's every insurance company that I've ever been on the phone with is that perfect, perfect example. Oh, it's just so frustrating. So that's my hard. And if you have health insurance, you know how hard it is.

Kenna Millea [00:09:52]:
You're welcome, babe, over here. Thank you.

Pat Millea [00:09:54]:
That is. That is one act of service that I'm happy to provide. Yeah, so good. I wouldn't say happy to provide. I'm willing to provide. How about that? Stay with that my high is this time of year. I, like you were saying, Mike, I love this time of year. I am, I am a Christmas junkie.

Pat Millea [00:10:10]:
And I know that it's Advent and I'm fully on board with Advent, but I also am not afraid to watch a Christmas movie once in a while before December 25th. And I was telling Kenna last weekend, she was hanging out with some friends on a Sunday afternoon. So I was home with our seven kids from freshmen down to kindergarten, and we just had a movie afternoon. So we had just gotten our Advent and Christmas tree that was unlit but in the corner. So this brand new Christmas tree smelled like pine all through the house. We were watching a Muppet Christmas Carol, of all things. And we get to the end of the movie with music. That's beautiful.

Pat Millea [00:10:46]:
It's Scrooge's big conversion transformative moment. And I'm holding our two six year old twins who, because there are two of them and they are six, are often we are at odds with each other sometimes, me and these twins. So I'm holding both of them and it's just this sweet moment of like, this is an image of fatherhood. And you guys, I am not, I'm only a little bit ashamed to say I was just weeping down my face.

Mike Hernon [00:11:08]:
It is.

Pat Millea [00:11:09]:
It's a Muppet movie, you guys. And I was just crying silently out of the bliss of the season. And it was really, it was beautiful and peaceful. So I'll take moments like that when they come. Yeah.

Mike Hernon [00:11:20]:
Way to go, dad. That's awesome.

Kenna Millea [00:11:22]:
Way to enter in.

Pat Millea [00:11:23]:
Oh, gosh. The Muppets are always good for an emotional moment like that sometimes. Just me?

Kenna Millea [00:11:30]:
No one ever.

Pat Millea [00:11:31]:
Just me? Okay, sounds good. Well, again, Hernons, we're so blessed to have you guys with us. You guys have just been serving marriages and families with your own kind of efforts and ministries for so long. And one of the things that we have really benefited from, you specifically, but also from other couples that we know is the ability to at times get out of the minutia of marriage, out of the day to day tasks and duties that need to happen in any functional family and to get above it all and to do a sense of visioning and intentionality around what are we even doing here, you know? So I guess, you know, we'll get to the kind of practical applications, things like your family board meeting and things like that. But I guess to start off, when you think back, were there things that you brought into marriage or experiences in your marriage that made you think we really need to look at the bigger picture here, we need to. We need to get above it all and kind of get a vision for. For marriage.

Pat Millea [00:12:34]:
What this family mission is about.

Alicia Hernon [00:12:37]:
You know, when one of the, I guess unique or what I feel like was a defining thing that made our marriage different from maybe like my parents marriage or marriages I was around, is that Mike comes from a divorced family. Right. His parents are divorced. I come from a very large Catholic family. My parents are extremely in love with each other, and they still are. So I kind of entered marriage, like, oh, you know, like, hey, you just love each other and everything just works out. And Mike was coming into marriage, like, yeah, sometimes you go to mass and you bring your kids and you do the Catholic stuff, and sometimes it doesn't work out. And so he was very, very intentional from the really beginning of our marriage.

Alicia Hernon [00:13:24]:
And I think that that really helped both of us.

Mike Hernon [00:13:27]:
Yeah.

Alicia Hernon [00:13:27]:
To. From the beginning, step back and. Because I was ready to just be, like, just in it, in the moment, you know, and he was like, very much, like, stepping back of like, no, we need to have a plan for these things. Like, we need to be ready to have those hard conversations and to really, like, have a vision for what do we want to be, you know, and that. And maybe that's a man thing. But I think it was also because of his background of, like, not making any assumptions. And honestly, that was such a great gift to our relationship because it made, like I said, like, it made me really stop and think about, yeah, wait a minute.

Kenna Millea [00:14:06]:
What.

Alicia Hernon [00:14:06]:
How do we do this? You know, and not just always living in the moment. Yeah.

Mike Hernon [00:14:12]:
Yeah. There are plenty of issues, wounds, challenges that come from my parents divorce, and we can go into that direction if we wanted to, but. But really what it did is it just made me not take anything for granted.

Kenna Millea [00:14:24]:
Yeah.

Mike Hernon [00:14:25]:
And I. But I don't think I realized all the junk that I still needed to work on. But at least one of the superpowers of that negative experience, if you will, growing up actually forced me to say, well, I don't know what the model is, so I want to look for it. So I always. I think early on we both did this, where we just look for older couples and we'd look for those who had been before us, and we sought out mentors, although we wouldn't have called it that, but just people who would help us. Right. And I remember even as before we got married, thinking, where is the perfect family? You know, And I was looking for. Cause I know I'm like, this wasn't the marriage that I know it was supposed to be, but I didn't know what it looked like.

Mike Hernon [00:15:06]:
And I feel like that just even that question, that prompting to look for examples and I didn't find any perfect ones, but I found some really good ones anyway. But that probably was the beginning for us. And again, then we got a bunch of kids and life and busyness and you know, all of that kind of just, you know, you know, what do you, what do you, gets thrown on your back, right? You know, all this extra stuff.

Kenna Millea [00:15:35]:
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I, you know, one of the things that Pat and I were introduced to early on, I think during engagement, Pat, if I'm remembering right, is like a weekly family meeting, which is our like mini version, right, of taking like a 10,000 foot view. And so when I was introduced by my grad school roommate to your guys's family board meeting concept and template and, and approach, I was like, oh, this is like the 30,000 foot view. You know, this is like really zooming out and, and you know, beyond just the calendar. So that was super helpful. So just first of all, gratitude and affirmation again, as Pat said, like, just how many families you are helping to really ask intentionally this question of like, Lord, what is your design for our family? What is. How do you want us to contribute to the building of this king kingdom? How do we not just go, yeah, in the grind, in the nitty gritty day to day, that's, that's needed too, but with some intentionality, with some sense of purpose. So, yeah, can, can you share a bit maybe before we get into the concrete of like, what is a board meeting? You know, people are like on the edge of their seats now wanting to know, but, but to say a bit of like, what have you gained? What, what have been the gifts? What have been the fruits of investing? Because it is an investment, it is work, you know, to make this time.

Kenna Millea [00:16:57]:
So what have been the fruits? What have been the gifts for your family?

Mike Hernon [00:17:01]:
Well, the one thing I think of is our adult children, right? So we have five that are really launched, two that are still in college and then three still at home for us. But the five particularly that are launched, they're evangelizing disciples of Jesus Christ. And when I look back on that, that is not an assumption that anybody should make that we didn't take as a, oh, this is just going to happen if we just pray together. If we go to church on Sunday. I looked around and you read any statistic and you're like, this is not what's average, it should be what's normal, but it's not what's typical out there today. And to me, that is the greatest fruit for our family that we have. What I would characterize as an army of families now. You know, we have four married kids who are raising their kids in the faith, who.

Mike Hernon [00:17:55]:
When I see my, our grandchildren and the way that they're loving on each other, but praying and as little kids talking about their life, and I'm like, there is no greater gift, you know, I mean, talking about that moment of crying with your two twins, right? It's like watching my grand. My grandson or my son and my granddaughter, like when they were just having this little moment of prayer together, or when I see my son leading, you know, a men's Bible study that he's just doing with other dads. And I'm like, yeah, who are we? You know, how do we get here? And I know it was obviously an action of the Holy Spirit and the free will choice of our children and that we can't control that outcome, but it didn't happen because by accident either. You know, And I do look back at some very intentional decisions, 20, 25, even, you know, some 30 years ago, that we made little habits that. That bore fruit.

Alicia Hernon [00:18:58]:
And I think it's too. It's the environment. Like, we were setting up the environment to make that happen. One of the greatest gifts, when, you know, ask, what's the greatest gift of this intentionality? Just last week, our kids actually, this is going to come out in like a week or two, but our 10 kids recorded a podcast together that we're going to release on our channel, which is a very. On it. We're not even on it. It's just them talking about our family life. Oh, my word.

Alicia Hernon [00:19:30]:
So I.

Pat Millea [00:19:31]:
Are you. Are you more excited or afraid?

Pat Millea [00:19:33]:
Is there any fear there?

Alicia Hernon [00:19:34]:
I'm totally excited because I already listened to it, okay? So I know what they're gonna say. But listening to that said to me, it confirmed for me what one of my greatest desires for my children is, for them to be close to each other. They really love each other. And I mentioned I grew up in a big Catholic family, so I'm the second oldest of 10 children myself. And like I said, like, I just went and was with my youngest sister. She's 20 years younger than me. I mean, she's way younger than me and my brothers and sisters. I just, like, one of my brothers said, look, guys, this is the plan.

Alicia Hernon [00:20:12]:
When all of our spouses die, we're all gonna be in the same nursing home together. Okay? That's what we're gonna do. We're all gonna be old people together. And we're like, yes, yes, that's what we wanna do, you know, And I wanna give that to my kids, you know, I want my children to have that security of relationships with brothers and sisters, you know, who will, who hopefully will always be with them. And my brothers and sisters, like, we don't live near each other, you know, like, we're kind of scattered throughout. Some of them do live near each other, but. But somehow, and I know it's because of that foundation that my parents laid, they were very intentional about relationships with each other, asking for forgiveness, having family time, working on conflict resolution, all of those types of things. And we have done that with our children as well.

Alicia Hernon [00:20:59]:
And just one example is that podcast which is gonna come out. But of course, we see it all the time, how they support each other and love each other, even though when they were kids, they fought all the time. We did not have a peaceful household at all.

Mike Hernon [00:21:19]:
Physical altercations, stealing clothes, you name it, right?

Alicia Hernon [00:21:23]:
Constant.

Pat Millea [00:21:24]:
You have no idea how consoling this is right now, you guys.

Alicia Hernon [00:21:27]:
Yes. Oh, my Lord. Like, I couldn't even tell you. Like the fighting, the constant fighting. But I think when you as a parent continue to push for communication, like I said, forgiveness, spending time together, we're going to do this, guys, right? Then the result is like, there's no. The way I think of it is like life altering or relationship breaking instances that happen. There's constant repair. Yes, there's rupture, but repair, repair, repair.

Alicia Hernon [00:21:58]:
And, and then it's worth it. And now that all of the kids, like, now that they're all kind of like on teenagers and up, there is a lot more peacefulness and a lot less conflict. And they're. And they're really supporting each other and loving each other now. And that is, that is a great. And that's a great gift. And that was something we tried to be really intentional about. And it's a joy to see for sure.

Pat Millea [00:22:22]:
That's a gift. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:22:23]:
Well. And I think as I listen to you. Yeah. I'm realizing, like, if we don't name, right. Which is this is what part of the board meeting is for, like, name that vision and then go, okay, what's the first step toward that? You know, the question of like, okay, ten years from now. It's interesting because my thing. Pat, do you remember what my thing was, What I want 10 years from now?

Pat Millea [00:22:46]:
What you're no, 10 years from now.

Kenna Millea [00:22:47]:
When.

Pat Millea [00:22:48]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:22:48]:
It's okay.

Pat Millea [00:22:49]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:22:49]:
Oh, you do. Okay. So it was that our children would have relationships independent of us.

Pat Millea [00:22:53]:
Right?

Kenna Millea [00:22:53]:
Like, I was like, I would. Our kids will be 15 to 25. And I said I would love to see them initially, you know, having their own group texting, having their own, you know, or whatever crazy technology you'll have by then, but. But having their own opportunities to be together, independent, that they would love each other. Not because mom and dad told us to, like, come to this family outing, but because they want to. And so then this question of, like, okay, how do we make a first step now toward that if that's where we want to go? Because that can be so pie in the sky. And it's like, oh, no, it begins now.

Alicia Hernon [00:23:27]:
Like that. We don't wait 100%.

Mike Hernon [00:23:29]:
You have to connect it. But if you don't have that vision, you won't get there. And you'll get caught in the day to day. But if you don't have some day to day habits, you'll never get there. You know, so it's.

Alicia Hernon [00:23:40]:
Yeah, it's all gonna happen, really.

Pat Millea [00:23:41]:
That's kind of what I, what I was gonna ask about was the. You know, I, I think there, there are times that I know I, I can fall into this sometimes. I think other people that, that listen to a story like yours can feel this way of, like, well, I, I am so far from that. There's no way that I could ever get there. You know, like, my kids are not like that. Our marriage is not like that. Our family is not like. It's, it's the illusion I think we have with the saints sometimes that like, well, they just, they were naturally holy.

Pat Millea [00:24:12]:
They just, they had what it takes to be a saint. And I don't. So why try? You know what I mean? And I think the sense that I'm hearing is that the idea of the benefit of some kind of guiding vision is that when it comes down to that nitty gritty moment, let's face takes a lot of energy and it takes a lot of a form of suffering to get into the difficulty of marriage and parenting and actually do something that's consistent with my values. Like, frankly, it's easier to just plop my kids in front of an iPad for eight hours a day so they don't fight. And it's easier to avoid the hard conversations with my spouse because I don't like conflict and disagreement, and I wasn't raised in a way that managed that. So You've already spoken to a little bit. But are there other ways that you've seen the vision really serve those choices of like, am I going to engage or am I going to back away from this opportunity?

Mike Hernon [00:25:14]:
Yeah. First thought is that when we're in the thick of things, we're looking for an easy solution. You know, we're looking for the easy button. We're looking for, how do we get out of the craziness that we're in? And so there is some wisdom in that. But you'll continue to be on this gerbil wheel, this frantic pace, unless you say, let's, you know, you said this earlier, let's stop just being caught up in the moment and let's take a step back. And this is true in everything in your life. It's like if you want to say you want to be an Olympic athlete, well, step back from just your day to day exercise and say, what is it that I really want? What is it? Let's put a name on it, let's put a face to it. Let's have a clearer sense of where we're going.

Mike Hernon [00:26:03]:
And that will give me both motivation to get out of the rat race, the daily stuff that may be grinding us down, but also bring purpose and meaning to the daily stuff. Right. And I might just be rephrasing it, but it's just like, without a vision, the people will perish in scripture and without a vision, your family will perish. Like, I think we need to raise the stakes. I mean, there are many, many families, many individuals who feel burdened by life's daily junk.

Alicia Hernon [00:26:33]:
Yes.

Mike Hernon [00:26:34]:
And we don't need to ignore that or shove that down. But we also need to recognize that we were not built and wired for merely today. We live in today and be present in this moment. But we have a destiny. We have something greater that we are called to. And that again, just the simple thing that that will take our eyes off of ourselves and our problems and see much more creatively what do I do with the problem of today in light of a bigger goal? Right. And we can see it in so many practical ways. But again, if we look at the two examples that we just talked about, both of you talked about relationships.

Mike Hernon [00:27:16]:
And if we look at all the fighting, I just want the fighting to stop.

Pat Millea [00:27:20]:
Right.

Mike Hernon [00:27:21]:
That's your goal when you look only at the moment. But if we said, actually, I want, would you say in 10 years, I want them to have independent relationships. I want my kids to be best friends. You might be like that's impossible. But if you actually say it and say it with some level of authority and some level of confidence, you can say, let's get really creative about what does that look like? You know, what is. What does that mean for today?

Alicia Hernon [00:27:45]:
And as far as, like, people, like, putting other families, like, on a pedestal.

Mike Hernon [00:27:50]:
Yeah.

Alicia Hernon [00:27:51]:
That is literally why we call ourselves the Messy Family Project. I want people, like, we want people to listen to podcasts and be like, oh, my gosh, if those people can do it, anybody can do it.

Kenna Millea [00:28:04]:
You know.

Alicia Hernon [00:28:07]:
Like, I want to, like, pull aside the curtain and be like, welcome to my messy house.

Mike Hernon [00:28:11]:
You know, like, we've had listeners over, and we're like, see where the brand comes from? This is.

Alicia Hernon [00:28:19]:
And I really. I think that that comparison is the thief of joy, you know, and when we look at other families and we're like, oh, because I've had that experience.

Kenna Millea [00:28:28]:
Absolutely.

Alicia Hernon [00:28:28]:
I have experience, like, often even now, looking at other families and being like, oh, my gosh, I just. We're just not like that, you know? And then. Then you just think, oh, well, then I can't do anything. And that's not true. That's not true. We were all made so uniquely. And God has a plan, a vision. Yes.

Alicia Hernon [00:28:48]:
For each one of us, but also for our marriage and also for your family. You know, like, God has a vision. He has a vision for what he wants your family to be. And are we just going to give up and just be like, oh, I can just never do it, so I'm not going to do anything, you know? And. And we really do feel like we. I'm going to be held accountable. I'm going to be held accountable at the end of my days because God said, I had a plan to make you holy. My plan to make you holy was called Mike Hernon and Amy Patrick Moore, Emily, Maggie.

Alicia Hernon [00:29:20]:
I'm like, I'm the biggest cross in that mix. It's like, this is the plan to make you holy. And how did you use. How did you travel that path to holiness? You know? And so I feel like even when we get discouraged, that is a tactic of the evil one. That is a tactic of the evil one to drag us down. And we really have to keep in our minds, you know what, Lord? I know you're gonna give me the grace to this. God always, he loves us too much to ask us to do things we can do on our own. Right.

Alicia Hernon [00:29:50]:
If I could do everything on my own, if I could provide everything for my kids, I wouldn't need God. They wouldn't need God. Right. But no, no, of course it's greater than us. Of course it's more that we can do. That's why we need God's grace. We need God's grace. That's why we need other people.

Alicia Hernon [00:30:07]:
We need encouragement, like your podcast, like what you guys are doing and even like the mental health opportunities that people should take advantage of. Yeah. Because we need other people, you know, and there's nothing wrong with that. So I just want any parent who feels discouraged, it's like that, just name it. Like that's the evil one. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to say, lord, give me the grace, because we're all going to be held accountable. But also, your kids are worth it.

Alicia Hernon [00:30:35]:
Your kids are worth it. They're worth it. Yes. And they need it. Nobody can do for your kids what you can do. And I think parents really need to know that and believe it and know that God will give you the grace. He will always provide the grace. Always.

Pat Millea [00:30:49]:
I used to tell folks in high schoolers doing youth ministry and married couples now today that one of the names for Satan is the Accuser. And it is really helpful for us to not do his job, for him to not self accuse, to not be on his team. Right. Of like, oh, I'm so terrible, I can't possibly do that. There are all the space in the world for a good examination of conscience, for good discipline, but not self accusation and shame that spirals out and. Yeah, exactly. All right, so we have hinted at it long enough. For those of you who are listening, who are not familiar with this idea of a family board meeting.

Pat Millea [00:31:26]:
Hernons, can you give us kind of the elevator pitch? Describe for us what this family board meeting resources that you've created for folks.

Mike Hernon [00:31:34]:
I don't know.

Alicia Hernon [00:31:38]:
So.

Mike Hernon [00:31:38]:
All right, so just think of it this way. Every organization, every business, if they're going to succeed, has to think about where are we going, how are we doing and what are we going to do to get there. Right. And we as a family are doing what I'd characterize as the most important work in the entire world, the formation of the human person. Right. And we need to take time to step back from the day to day as we've talked about, so as to look and say, you know, you need three data points if you're going to go anywhere. You need to know where I am today, where do I want to go, and then what's the route, what's the plan for me to get there? And a family Board meeting essentially covers that for couples looking at marriage and family life, putting first things first.

Alicia Hernon [00:32:27]:
So it's like you and your spouse are the board. Like, we're the board of Hernon Incorporated, you know, and so we're the ones.

Mike Hernon [00:32:34]:
That are setting that we have some shareholders, but they.

Alicia Hernon [00:32:37]:
Yes, exactly.

Mike Hernon [00:32:38]:
They're non voting.

Alicia Hernon [00:32:40]:
Exactly, exactly. Some people ask that. They ask, oh, are my kids involved in this? No. Like, you can inform your kids afterwards and certainly your children, you take input from them, but the decisions that are made in your family are between you and your spouse. And so what we've done is that. And this having this idea of like taking a weekend away to look at your family is something that we've done for years. And then when we decided to start explaining it to other families, like when we started the podcast 10 years ago or so, we really had to kind of like break it down and be like, okay, what exactly are we doing? So we came up with five different steps that you go through to do your own family boarding meeting. And first, we just made a free download that's still on our website that people can go and, you know, just download and go through the worksheet by themselves.

Alicia Hernon [00:33:30]:
We have a podcast kind of explaining a little bit more, but then we actually created it into a course so we have like a full workbook to go through all of that. And a parish event. Yeah, yeah. And we do in person events as well. We just did this for a parish in Montana. But really what. What we want people to look at is not just the spiritual life of your home, though that is very important. But to look at your marriage, to look at how are we doing in our individual relationships with our children, Each one of them looking at their needs, that sometimes our family board meeting would take us along, just that part, because we had 10 kids, you know, to go through one of our.

Alicia Hernon [00:34:12]:
But it was really important because I didn't want my children to feel one of the herd. We wanted to think about each one of them, what were our goals for that child for their year. And so we would kind of go through that. And then we talk about developing the gifts of everyone in the family. That includes mom and dad, professional development, more things to do at work, you know, advancement in career, going back to school. And that includes the children, athletics, you know, talents, artistic pursuits, all of those kinds of things. And then last we look at family operations. That's like the nuts and bolts.

Alicia Hernon [00:34:47]:
What's your schedule? What's your budget? What. How. How do you get everybody where they need to go short charts, things like that, like, kind of, like making it, like, making it really real. So we go. We have a method of going through all of that, and so you can come out with a really. A more united plan, because parents need to have a shared vision. A shared vision for couples is an essential part of a healthy marriage. And if you don't have a shared vision, if you don't know what are our goals, we're just kind of like putting out fires all day.

Alicia Hernon [00:35:23]:
And we hear that from a lot of parents. They're just putting out fires. You really need to step back and stop living in the urgent. And really, we. Part of what we do, too, is help people to identify what is truly important to us as a couple. And then how can we slowly implement those things? So we're not dealing with just the urgent things all the time. Right. But we're taking care of what's important and then really living more effectively, little by little.

Alicia Hernon [00:35:52]:
But at the very least, even if your life is still crazy because you have little kids and all of that, but the very least, couples can be more united. And if you are more united as a couple, you're gonna be able to handle whatever life throws at you.

Kenna Millea [00:36:07]:
Yeah. I mean, and I want to speak to that from the therapy perspective of, like, what you're saying intersects so much with things that I see in my office, which is couples who are really locking horns because the way they're each pursuing a shared value looks different. And because they're not having a conversation about, oh, this is the way that I think we should go toward this end goal. This is the way I think we should go towards the end goal. Like, it. It feels like we are at odds. It feels like you are my enemy, you're my adversary. You are trying to take down my good efforts.

Kenna Millea [00:36:42]:
And so having the conversation, aligning ourselves is important. Okay, so true story. And. And if you need to publish this, you can, because, like, this is a testament to how powerful your board meeting is. When Pat and I went in last week, the week before into our board meeting, I was so crabby. I. I did not want to be there. I was annoyed with him.

Kenna Millea [00:37:05]:
Right. It was the beginning of Advent. I was feeling really agitated ahead.

Pat Millea [00:37:07]:
I'm pleading the fifth on this one.

Kenna Millea [00:37:10]:
What all it was. And he was trying to be so sweet, and he was trying to, you know, just be present and all this, and I was just so crabby. But I. It was irresistible to have this conversation with him, to hear him talk about the vision that he has For I was like, this is the man that I married. Like, this is the man that I fell in love with. This is the man that I finally was. Like, I didn't really want kids, but with you. Okay, I'll, like, I'll think about this.

Kenna Millea [00:37:36]:
And so just the power of, like, when we. It's so tempting to say we are so busy. Like, you people talking on this podcast have no idea of my reality because we're so busy. And I'm to say, like, it is actually what made stepping back into the daily grind feel possible and feel exciting again and, like, feel like, less of a grind and feel like, oh, this is part of a bigger picture. Right. This is the one mosaic tile in this incredible image that that's unfolding. But I was a real piss ant going into that. So, Pat, I should, like, publicly apologize, but that's how transformative the board meeting was that I, like, emerged, and I was like, I love you so much.

Alicia Hernon [00:38:18]:
That's awesome. I cannot tell you how many weekends that we would go away together for something like this would begin with a fight. So many. So many.

Mike Hernon [00:38:29]:
And so much so that we actually changed the first step of the board meeting.

Alicia Hernon [00:38:32]:
Yeah.

Mike Hernon [00:38:32]:
True to affirming each other.

Pat Millea [00:38:34]:
That's exactly what I noticed, Mike. When we got into ours, I was like, well, apparently they knew we were going to need this.

Kenna Millea [00:38:42]:
I felt pretty annoyed. I felt pretty annoyed. I had to affirm you with that moment.

Mike Hernon [00:38:47]:
I know, I know. I get it, I get it.

Pat Millea [00:38:49]:
And I can't tell you how vulnerable and scary it was in the midst of this, like, tense moment to be like, so, babe, you want to do affirmations now? But it was so good.

Kenna Millea [00:39:00]:
It just.

Pat Millea [00:39:01]:
There's a lot of wisdom behind that, I think, to, like. It's a very tangible reminder, like, the. Yes, we may disagree, and that is healthy and fine, but we cannot overlook the beautiful things about the other person that the disagreements could so easily distract us from.

Mike Hernon [00:39:18]:
You know, and just on that note, too, of disagreement, oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes we're disagreeing at kind of a lower level of practical application where if we kind of push it higher and push it higher, like, you know, if we get to that 30,000 foot view, do we all agree here? I'm like, yeah, all right, so let's go with starting with where we actually agree. And then, you know, you said it so well, but so many times, we're competing with each other when we're, like, almost at odds, but fighting for our own idea or own practical application. Or, you know, judgment. But what the board meeting tries to do is it pivots us to stand shoulder to shoulder, to look out at our marriage, to look out at our family, as if it is this third entity outside of us that we're building together. And it has to be seen that way. Like, and when we do that, it does help actually wash away some of the disagreements because we're like, actually, we agree a lot more than I thought we did.

Kenna Millea [00:40:17]:
Right.

Mike Hernon [00:40:18]:
And then when we get to that decision, I'm like, okay, I felt heard, I felt seen. I understand on this level. And you really feel passionate about this and. Or whatever, you know, and it comes down to something that you can say, we're more united now. And that. I'm glad you said that, too. That it kind of brought to that path.

Alicia Hernon [00:40:36]:
And I think that that is part of the. The real power of the family board meeting is that pushing up, you know, because a lot of parents, of course, that's why, like, we're not working effectively because we're at odds with each other. So you have to get to that place of finding. Okay, where is our place of agreement? Do we agree we should be married? You know what I mean? It's like, yes.

Pat Millea [00:40:57]:
Right.

Alicia Hernon [00:40:58]:
Do we agree we have these children? Yes. Okay, let's keep moving down, moving down, closer and closer till we find that area. And the more. It's kind of like a salesperson, you know, like they say if you're in sales, you want to get the other person, the person you're selling to, to say yes as many times as possible.

Mike Hernon [00:41:17]:
Not just manipulation here, but.

Kenna Millea [00:41:21]:
Psychology also.

Alicia Hernon [00:41:22]:
Exactly. But you feel better about the process the more you can find areas of agreement. And then it's like, takes the temperature down, and you're like, okay, we can do this. And then it enables you to listen better. To listen better. Because, like, one of the things we talk about is that we're not trying to get couples to compromise, to, like, sew two pieces of cloth together. Right. That's compromise.

Alicia Hernon [00:41:47]:
What we're trying to get them to do is to be, like, metal, like, melted down. So they come up with something that is totally new, that it's. They can forge something together that neither one of them would have thought on their own. And that's just like these children. Neither one of you could have created this child by yourself.

Pat Millea [00:42:06]:
That's right.

Alicia Hernon [00:42:07]:
You had to.

Pat Millea [00:42:07]:
Both.

Alicia Hernon [00:42:07]:
And this child was. Is not mom or dad. It's something completely different. It's a completely different entity. And so that's what we have to recognize with. We can do that as we like metaphysically in a way as well. Like, not just like biologically, but as we go through our lives. That's what we're being called to do, is to work together in unity.

Alicia Hernon [00:42:30]:
And when we work in unity, that's when the Holy Spirit there is there. That's when the Lord is there. And grace can really flow into your family and marriage in really new ways through that unity.

Pat Millea [00:42:42]:
So I want to get your take on something in terms of that, that kind of fusion, because obviously, you know, the two become one sacramentally, but spouses are very different. And that's part of why God draws us together typically is because of the complementarity. Right. And I want to couch this with the caveat that this is the kind of question under the category of it's not you, it's me. Okay? So this is not. This is no criticism. This is just reality of my situation. I am the kind of person who is most likely to bristle at the idea of formalized, very structured methods of communication or like, programs for conversations like this.

Pat Millea [00:43:23]:
Right. And I feel like it's true for many marriages that maybe one person is the kind of person who loves visioning and they love structure and they love planning and organization, and the other person is like, can't we just live our lives? Just come on. We agree on the things. Why do we have to take a whole weekend and find a babysitter and just. It's so much work. You know what I mean? So I would imagine that there are people listening right now who the idea of going through a formalized family board meeting feels oppressive or just like a little bit too much. So what kinds of encouragements or thoughts might you have for somebody like me who, you know, I. I know that I need to grow in this area a little bit, but for other folks like me out there.

Mike Hernon [00:44:11]:
Yeah. So quick thought and you can jump in here. But one, I really do believe, and. And this isn't biased because of you don't follow our method. I feel like it's essential for life. Like, when we think about our spiritual life, there is. There is no spiritual director that will ever tell you you don't need to go on a retreat, that having time where you are getting away so as to invest in your spiritual life. And really, that's really what we're saying, is that you need to take time away to be reflective and intentional both on who you are and where you're going.

Mike Hernon [00:44:53]:
Now, your board meeting based upon the two of you will look necessarily different. But what the structure, the structure shouldn't be rigid, the structure shouldn't be confining. The structure should make sure that we address the comprehensive whole. Right. And so that the structure is there to serve a purpose. If the structure was there for the sake of structure, then get rid of it, you know, and if it's constricting, that's not the point. But we in our day to day lives, we'll never make the time for the things that are unurgent. Right.

Mike Hernon [00:45:29]:
The kind of the paradigm that we start with is the urgent versus the important. And almost most of us as those who have families, who particularly have little kids, you are driven by the urgent. And the family board meeting gets us out of the urgent, gets us out of that again, the day to day. So that we can say when do we ever have time to talk about the big stuff in our life? And you're making space for that conversation. I don't think you should approach this as if it was a slog and this hard won back. There may be a spouse who wants to make it more rigorous and they probably need to step back a little bit.

Kenna Millea [00:46:10]:
Why are you looking at me, Mike?

Alicia Hernon [00:46:11]:
Why are you?

Mike Hernon [00:46:13]:
No finger. No fingers for it. But I think there is. It needs to breathe light life into your marriage and breathe life into your home. It's kind of like anything good that we do. Like if we go to church. Right. You can just follow.

Mike Hernon [00:46:27]:
If the church had no form to Mass, we would not actually have a sacrament present to us. Right. And so that structure is pretty good. I'm okay with that structure. And when we can look and say that the structure that is necessary for good conversations to make sure we're hitting on, you know, something that we've been talking about more recently is what are those crucial conversations that every couple needs to have? Because you know what? We shouldn't be making it up and just shooting from our hip because that, you know, that, that, that's a silly, immature way to approach life. We should look for some wise people, not us. But, but we look to those who went before us.

Alicia Hernon [00:47:08]:
Yeah.

Mike Hernon [00:47:09]:
And say, what are the conversations we should really have? Give me that structure. I want to follow that pattern. I want to look at not the saint that is out of my reach. I want a saint that's, that's still accessible to me and say, I want to model somewhat of it. I'll do it our way, I'll do it our unique and wonderfully made way. But I want to follow a pattern. So I don't have to just make this up as I go.

Alicia Hernon [00:47:33]:
And one of the things I love about the family board meeting is that there's lots of different types of conversations. You know, there, there's, there's. At the beginning, it's really more the conversation for the dreamer, you know, of like, that big picture and like, and looking at your family values. Like, what is our family really good at? What does our family really love? Because that's going to inform your decisions and kind of bring you greater unity. And so there's those kind of, like, more abstract conversations. And then later on you get into the more practical, you know, like, okay, I will begin praying 15 minutes a day at 6 o', clock, you know, like in this place, you know, and so you have. Both of those kind of personalities can be satisfied just at different times in the family board meeting. And so, so sometimes you have, like both couples are both spouses maybe one way, you know, and then.

Alicia Hernon [00:48:30]:
But sometimes you have either or. And honestly, if you have either or in some ways that's the best way because then you have a driver at the beginning. And then when that, you know, you got to take that dream and you'll be like, okay, come on back down to earth. You know, we gotta actually make a choice of what we're gonna do.

Mike Hernon [00:48:48]:
Dream all day long. And.

Alicia Hernon [00:48:50]:
Yeah.

Mike Hernon [00:48:50]:
And she'd be like, yeah, what are we gonna do with that?

Alicia Hernon [00:48:53]:
So both kinds of personalities are satisfied in just different steps of the board meeting. So hopefully that would help you or.

Mike Hernon [00:49:02]:
People like you or the friend you're asking for.

Pat Millea [00:49:05]:
Yeah, right, Totally. Thank you for that. I'll pass that along. Yeah, no, and that's great. I am fully aware of my weaknesses, and frankly, I can't speak for anyone else. For me, a lot of it comes down to just laziness sometimes, that it takes energy to commit to a process like this. It's just so much easier to not do things than to do things. So true.

Pat Millea [00:49:27]:
All things being equal, why would we have a board meeting when it's easier not to? Well, because it's crucial. It's valuable.

Kenna Millea [00:49:34]:
Well, and too, like, it's. It's countercultural. Like when you say that, Pat, like, and Mike and Alicia, you've been so clear of, like, looking to those who go before us and those who have something that we're like, I want that. We don't see a lot of people doing this. We don't see a lot of people making the sacrifices, taking the time, risking the discomfort and the vulnerability of having these conversations. So, you know, in A way we're blazing a trail for so many of us.

Mike Hernon [00:50:02]:
And just to kind of put a exclamation point on that, it's like, people won't change. I mean, because there is pain. There is a overcoming lethargy, overcoming the way things are done, the default that we're in. There has to be something. Either the pain is enough that you want to change, or the aspiration or the vision is enough to inspire you. And probably what we need is a little bit of both, you know, but that's the only way we're gonna change. And so if people are happy with the way they are, they shouldn't do a family board meeting. If they are the perfect family and they've got it all figured out, it's not worth it.

Mike Hernon [00:50:40]:
Don't do it if it ain't broke. And that's okay. And if that's where you're at. But it's like, what if you're a family who looks and says, I want something more? And whether that's aspirational or frustration, you know, whether it's I want something greater or I'm frustrated with something right now in our life that just isn't clicking. And maybe you're doing it out of love for your spouse who's like, they're feeling either that. That draw to something greater or that frustration with the way things are. Those two. There's a death to self sometimes too pat, you know, like, for those who are.

Mike Hernon [00:51:15]:
And it's like, I'm doing this because I know my. My spouse really wants this, and that's a beautiful thing too.

Alicia Hernon [00:51:20]:
And, you know, and just thinking too, even those families who maybe. Maybe things are going well, you know, and maybe they're just kind of humming along. I feel like I think about the scripture, to whom much has been given, much is required, you know, and it's like, okay, well, if your family.

Mike Hernon [00:51:36]:
So you're not letting them off the hook is what you're saying.

Alicia Hernon [00:51:38]:
I'm not. I don't know. Like, you know, like. Fair enough, fair enough, you know, because we've had some couples who've had no children at home any longer, you know, and they're at home, like, and. And they're empty nesters. Well, they still have a responsibility to be spiritual mothers, spiritual fathers, and bear fruit and to continue to bear fruit and to step back and say, okay, like, we were at this place now, Lord, what do you have for us? We don't just get to coast into heaven, you know, like, nobody has that, you know, like, God Always has more for us. And if God has given you a peaceful, ordered life, praise God, what does he want you to do then? What is the. What is.

Alicia Hernon [00:52:18]:
How does he want to stretch you and to bring his kingdom on earth? What is that? You know, and it's a good question for couples to think about.

Mike Hernon [00:52:26]:
Good call.

Kenna Millea [00:52:26]:
Yeah. I think, Pat, I know you're about to tell me it's end of time, so I would just want to ask one more thing.

Pat Millea [00:52:34]:
I sure am. Yep.

Alicia Hernon [00:52:35]:
So.

Kenna Millea [00:52:35]:
So I'm like, I can see the look in your eyes. So as you were talking, Mike, in particular, about this idea of retreat and, and really putting that name on it, it reminded me of this quote that I heard from a Benedictine sister where she was responding to, like, criticism that, that often people receive when they're retreating of, like, oh, you're just running away from the world. You're running away from life's problems. And she said, I'm not running away from reality. I'm returning to reality himself so that I can return to the world with renewed vision. And it just, this is really solidifying for me why the board meeting and, and things like it are, are so essential, because when we are in the day to day that that vision gets distorted, it's dulled, and, and we're not seeing it as clearly. And to take retreat, you know, whether that's an afternoon or a weekend together, whatever, you're managing, like, but it's to go back to that place of like, okay, Lord, like, remind me what, what's the vision? What's the call here? Because I, I've, I've lost sight of it in the midst of the daily demands, which is. He knows that's going to happen.

Kenna Millea [00:53:44]:
That is nothing to be ashamed of. Like, he knows that. And so he's, he's calling us to these rhythms, which is also why I would say you schedule your board meeting before you think you need it.

Alicia Hernon [00:53:57]:
That's very wise.

Kenna Millea [00:53:58]:
It's a piece of personal wisdom there.

Mike Hernon [00:54:03]:
Oh, good.

Pat Millea [00:54:05]:
Well, you know, maybe the, the challenge by choice for this episode is really easy, but what's a, what's a challenge by choice that you might offer to listeners Mike and Alicia?

Alicia Hernon [00:54:14]:
Well, I would invite people to go to our website, messyfamilyproject.org and they can download our free family board meeting guide. I think it's four pages. And just use it as. Take it on your date night and just, just begin by, like, hey, let's just have these conversations. You know, like, just maybe it doesn't have to be A whole weekend. Maybe it's just like, hey, here's something like, let's talk about that. Maybe print out to each one of you, kind of fill it out, and then come together and just be like, hey, let's. Let's talk about these things.

Alicia Hernon [00:54:43]:
I think that that would be an excellent place to start, because communication and unity, it's. It's key. It's key for our life as Catholics, and it's key for our life as parents and to really fulfill that responsibility to our children and to the world, to have a vibrant marriage.

Mike Hernon [00:55:03]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:55:03]:
Yeah, that's beautiful.

Mike Hernon [00:55:05]:
And I don't want to add to that, because as part of that is really developing this idea of a shared vision between spouses where it will help you to get to your final destination, but it will also help you get through with meaning and purpose, not trying to just survive parenting, but to thrive in your parenting, to really embrace what it means today, here and now, with greater intentionality. You don't have to make every decision today, but you do need to make one. And at the end of the board meeting, we really just say, what's the one thing that's gonna make the biggest difference? And don't try to do too much. Focus in on what matters most.

Alicia Hernon [00:55:47]:
Definitely.

Mike Hernon [00:55:48]:
If you can get that shared vision, that would be a great goal. That would be a great aspiration, and it would have a lasting and powerful impact on you. And you will see that fruit in the lives of your children. They will bear witness to that. If you live according to that shared vision that you two work on together.

Pat Millea [00:56:07]:
I love that. And we'll put a link to the download to that resource in the show notes in the description here, so folks can easily access that like we did a little while ago, and we had a little fight, and then it ended up really beautifully and wonderful. Why don't we pray, friends, and then we can wrap up from there, huh?

Mike Hernon [00:56:24]:
Great.

Pat Millea [00:56:25]:
Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Lord, I praise you for your goodness and for your presence in each of our hearts, in each of our lives. And I know and I trust that you are with us in all moments, in all things. I thank you and praise you especially for the vocation of marriage, for this holy calling that so many of your children have received to unite to one another, to unite with you in this project of salvation in the family and beyond. And I pray, Lord, for your grace to be with all married couples, those who are listening and those who are not, and especially marriages who are struggling most right now. I Pray that you might renew their love, that you can inspire reconciliation and forgiveness, and that you can lead all of us married couples into a greater sense of vision, a greater sense of purpose and mission that comes from you and your holy will, so that we can encounter the challenges of the day with renewed purpose and motivation. Lord, help us to desire what you desire.

Pat Millea [00:57:37]:
Help us to avoid all things that would threaten our marriage and our children. And help us to walk side by side toward heaven with our children and the church and the whole world behind us. Lord, please bless Mike and Alicia and their ministry and their marriage and their own family. And bless all of our listeners in this time. We ask all this, Jesus, in your name. Amen.

Alicia Hernon [00:57:59]:
Amen.

Mike Hernon [00:58:00]:
Amen.

Pat Millea [00:58:00]:
In the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Mike and Alicia Hernon, what a blessing. How can people stay in touch with you and hear more about what you have to offer?

Alicia Hernon [00:58:10]:
Offer?

Mike Hernon [00:58:10]:
Yeah, so the Messy Family podcast is wherever you listen to podcasts, whether Spotify or Apple, and also Visit our website, messyfamilyproject.org whether it be virtual date nights, free downloads like we talked about, or courses or events that we're hosting, we'd love to stay connected and support marriage and family wherever it may be.

Pat Millea [00:58:31]:
Great news. Great news. Well, anytime that you're up in the Twin Cities, you've got a very loud house to have dinner at, so feel free to come on over. You can see our messy house, and we will do the honor of not cleaning up beforehand so you can see what it's really like. Friends, thanks so much for being with us. You can follow us as always at thiswholelifepodcast.com and on Instagram and Facebook @thiswholelifepodcast. We would love to hear how the family board meeting goes for you. Whether it's, you know, just over dinner for the first time, like Alicia mentioned, whether you do take a day or two days to really dig into the nitty gritty.

Pat Millea [00:59:05]:
What are your responses? How does it feel? And what are the success stories that come from that? Let us know. We will see you next time, friends, on This Whole Life. God bless you.

Kenna Millea [00:59:19]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin center for Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Kenna Millea [00:59:40]:
I'm going to wear our oldest daughter's snow pants to go sledding. I don't have the gear.