Ep90 Loving Persons With Mental Illness

"But a Samaritan traveler who came upon him was moved with compassion at the sight."
~ Luke 10:33

How can I better support my loved one who suffers with mental illness?
What is the Church's place in caring for those with mental illnesses?
Is it possible to choose my responses instead of just reacting?

In episode 90, Kenna & Pat welcome Beth Hlabse, program director of the Fiat Program on Faith and Mental Health at the University of Notre Dame, for an honest conversation about loving and supporting people with mental illness. Drawing on personal stories, professional expertise, and Catholic teaching, the episode explores the complexities of mental health through the lens of accompaniment, compassion, and community. Beth shares practical wisdom for churches and families, highlighting the importance of seeing the gifts and goodness of every person beyond their diagnosis, setting healthy boundaries, and moving from reactive to responsive support. Listeners are invited to reflect on their own biases and discomfort, discovering pathways to deeper empathy, hope, and belonging—especially in faith communities. Whether you’re walking this journey yourself or supporting someone you love, this episode offers encouragement and tangible steps toward stronger, more healing connections.

Beth Hlabse is the program director for the Fiat Program on Faith and Mental Health at the McGrath Institute for Church Life at the University of Notre Dame. As a mental health counselor, Beth has provided therapeutic care for adolescents and adults with histories of trauma and adverse child experiences. Beth graduated from the University of Notre Dame in 2011 and she obtained her masters in clinical mental health counseling from Divine Mercy University. Beth and her husband Pete live in South Bend, Indiana.

Episode 90 Show Notes

Reflection Questions

Chapters:

0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
18:40: Acknowledging my past to inform my future
29:00: Loving others in the midst of mental illness
42:07: Isolation: a cause and effect of mental illness
54:03: Healthy boundaries in relationship with others with mental illness
59:01: Challenge By Choice

Click here to register for the DBT group from Jan. 20 - March 24, 2026 (MN & WI residents only)

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Highs & Hards
• 18:40 Acknowledging my past to inform my future
• 29:00 Loving others in the midst of mental illness
• 42:07 Isolation: a cause and effect of mental illness
• 54:03 Healthy boundaries in relationship with others with mental illness
• 59:01 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Beth Hlabse [00:00:00]:
Mental illness can overshadow a person such that they feel like it's all of them. Right. I am my diagnosis. And unfortunately, we begin to see them in that way and to interact with them in that way because of the intensity of the symptoms and so to pray. Lord, help me to see the goodness and gifts of this person.

Kenna Millea [00:00:24]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast. Along with my husband, Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader, we invite you to our kitchen table. Okay. Not literally, but you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having. We once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes, we're excited to share this podcast. For educational purposes. It's not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care.

Kenna Millea [00:01:04]:
So let's get talking about This Whole Life.

Pat Millea [00:01:17]:
Welcome back, friends. It is This Whole Life all over again, and it is now 2026. Which seems strange to say, because as podcast universe goes, we are not currently in 2026. We're talking to you from the past. It is 2025 on recording day, but welcome to January, friends. Kenna, my love. How are you doing?

Kenna Millea [00:01:39]:
Good, good, good, good. Excited that this is the first topic we're gonna dive into this year in a new. New season. It's a new season.

Pat Millea [00:01:46]:
Absolutely. Yep. A new calendar season. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Not liturgically, but time wise. We'll take that.

Pat Millea [00:01:54]:
And we're joined with a great guest and a great friend in the mission, Beth Hlabse. How are you doing, Beth?

Beth Hlabse [00:02:02]:
Thanks, Pat and Kenna. I'm doing good, and I'm so grateful to be with you both today and to be with the many listeners who join us.

Pat Millea [00:02:11]:
Good. We're blessed to have you. And I realizing, as in the past 30 seconds, I realized that what I forgot to clarify before we started is I am 99% sure, but there's always the 1% that I'm wrong, that it's Hlabse. That's the way that you and your husband pronounce it, right?

Beth Hlabse [00:02:25]:
It sure is, Pat. And I was just in awe that you pronounced it well right off the bat, you know, but we do have a family member who pronounces it Lobsha. And so there is a little back and forth within the community as to Hlabse, lobsha, tomato tomato.

Pat Millea [00:02:45]:
Well, as someone who's been called every version of Pat Milia or Pat Malaya or even Pat Miller that you can imagine, I can empathize with the trials of being a Hlabse. So I'm just glad that I didn't mess it up too bad. For those of you who are not familiar with Beth, Beth Hlabse is the program director for the Fiat program on faith and Mental Health at the University of Notre Dame's McGrath Institute for Church Life. And Fiat is where she leads the institute's efforts to generate pastoral research and education and formation opportunities on the meeting place of mental health and the great Catholic tradition. Beth is also a mental health counselor, so she's provided therapeutic care for teens and adults with histories of trauma and adverse childhood experiences. She is a Domer like us. She graduated from Notre Dame a little bit after us, which makes her younger and cooler in 2011. And then she went on to get her master's degree in clinical mental health counseling from Divine Mercy University.

Pat Millea [00:03:46]:
Beth and her husband Pete live in South Bend. And later on in a Storytellers episode yet to come, we're going to hear a little bit about life in Wyoming, where she is from. So again, Beth, thanks so much for joining us. We'd love to help our folks get to know you a little bit with a high and hard at the beginning of an episode. Do you have a high and hard lately that you'd be willing to share with us?

Beth Hlabse [00:04:07]:
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, so we are recording in advance of the new year when everyone's listening. So a recent high for me was being with family over the Thanksgiving holiday here in South Bend. My husband Pete and I don't have

Beth Hlabse [00:04:21]:
immediate family and so we relish the

Beth Hlabse [00:04:25]:
Holidays when we can go and be with extended family. And back in Cleveland, where my husband is from, from his mother and dad have his grandmother Baba, who is a Ukrainian war refugee who lives with them, an amazing woman who's 94. And then right next door, my brother and sister in law live with their four beautiful children. And so for an extended set of days, we got to be together with all four generations just delighting in the.

Beth Hlabse [00:04:57]:
Gift of family and being together. So that's a definite high, I think, a hard I'm thinking about it in the context of we are in Advent, but I think it applies to the new year too. Just this sense of expectations that we can have about what the season should look like. So as I'm thinking about it in Advent, you know, an expectation for getting.

Beth Hlabse [00:05:20]:
All this done to prepare for Christmas, always feeling under prepared, but knowing that that can enter into the new year too, with the expectations that we have for ourselves, whether it's resolutions or otherwise.

Beth Hlabse [00:05:32]:
And so as I encounter that pain point and growth point, just really asking the Lord to enter into that space and help me to release the expectations that I'm holding that aren't his and to just deepen in the way of trust and the way of relationship with our Lord in this season into the next.

Pat Millea [00:05:55]:
Beautiful, beautiful. Thank you for sharing. That's wonderful.

Kenna Millea [00:05:59]:
Just welcome you to speak that prayer over me, Beth. Release me of any expectations that are mine, but they're not yours.

Pat Millea [00:06:07]:
Seriously? Oh, my goodness. Yes, my dear.

Kenna Millea [00:06:11]:
I. Yeah, I. That. That maybe it's a good dovetail to my heart, which is an. I referenced it, I think on This Whole Life several times. But I've struggled with insomnia for many, many years, probably end of high school, certainly in college. And it is often quite manageable and I can often, you know, use my skills and my strategies along with medication to manage it. But there were some nights this week where it was just beyond, you know, my usual go to.

Kenna Millea [00:06:46]:
Yeah, a bag of tricks and, and kind of inexplicably, like, there wasn't really anything that I could point to. Like, I wasn't worried about anything in particular. Like, it just. Yeah, there wasn't an easy culprit to, to identify with. To identify. And so that actually is maybe one of the most nerve wracking things when you suffer from insomnia is just this, like, oh my gosh, this is just the way it's going to be. And, and, and so that was really, really hard. It's also been a really full week at home and at work.

Kenna Millea [00:07:17]:
And so to not feel like the tank is full and you must just like, you know, charge ahead. They. They are days, though, where I am so much closer to the Holy Spirit because I'm like, literally everything I'm doing right now, it's got to be you, because it's not me. Like, it is not my human effort. Like, I got nothing, literally nothing in me, you know, right now. And so there, there is definitely a gift and a grace in it. It's so humbling. But yeah, it's tough, you know, after we're now in a stage of parenting where, like, our kids generally don't wake us up in the middle of the night.

Kenna Millea [00:07:57]:
And so to feel like I'm the reason I'm not getting good sleep is like, what? This is horrible. Like, I like, waited for this day. Yeah, just very Humbling. So that's the hard. And I would say the high is there have been some things. We were kind of talking about this a little bit off air before we. We signed on here, but there have been some things, certainly in work life, but also in family, personal life that have. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:08:26]:
Been challenging for you and I, Pat. In. In. In that we are different, we do complement each other, but we find we are maybe not compatible in those moments in that we don't automatically see things the same way or I don't automatically appreciate your perspective and what you bring to a situation. And I feel like we've been navigating those. Those challenges better than we ever have before. Like, I can see the growth. I can see the way we recover more quickly or, um, you know, it's.

Kenna Millea [00:09:01]:
Yes, there are upset feelings, but there's not the sense that you are the enemy. You know, you aren't the reason that I'm upset. And. And so I, like, I thank God for that because I know there are moments when I wasn't sure we were going to get here. And we are. We're. We're doing it and we still got a lot of life ahead of us to enjoy the fruits of the hard work of, like, investing in. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:09:26]:
In attuning to ourselves and being able to clearly communicate that with one another. Air high five across the office.

Beth Hlabse [00:09:35]:
Beautiful.

Pat Millea [00:09:36]:
Oh, man. I agree. First of all, it's not my high, but it could be, my hard is. Okay, so I have two hards, one very short one and one real one. The short one is that I realized today that two days ago we had a very busy day on Wednesday and the whole week has been very busy. But. But the one thing that I always make time for because I do it at the gym between sets is I always do the wordle every single day. And I was at 160 plus days in a row.

Pat Millea [00:10:05]:
And I just flat forgot on Wednesday because I didn't go to the gym because I didn't have time. And it's not on my radar when I'm not at the gym. And I was very angry this morning, Beth. So that's the. That's not my real hard, but that's. It is. It is. It's a 21st century hard.

Pat Millea [00:10:23]:
It's a first world hard. The real hard. And I don't want to. It could take a long time with this, but I'm not. I'm going to try to make it as succinct as possible. There's something that happened this morning that is Difficult. And I haven't even had time to tell Ken about this. I went to the gym this morning where I found out that I hadn't done the wordle two days ago.

Pat Millea [00:10:41]:
And I got out of the car, and it's winter here in Minnesota, so there's snow on the ground probably 3, 4 inches. And it was snowing, so maybe an inch or so from this morning. So it's slick outside. And I have to describe so you can understand what's happening. So the gym that I go to is in, like, a strip mall, like a shopping center. And the shopping center is down a pretty steep hill of just like, maybe 50ft of trees. Not a huge long area, but 50ft or so up to a street and parking lot area up above. And there are lots of, like, shops and apartments up above.

Pat Millea [00:11:15]:
So people walk up and down this wooded hill all the time to get to and from. It's just a quicker way to go. So this morning I got out of my car, and I heard what sounded like crying, moaning a little bit, and was really confused, but it was really faint. And I had that inclination of, like, it's probably nothing. So turned, walked toward the gym, but it kept going. I was like, all right, it's probably not nothing. So I turn around, and there is a woman who is like, halfway up this wooded area, stuck in the snow, and she's probably a little bit older than us, I would guess. Maybe she had a shopping bag.

Pat Millea [00:11:54]:
So maybe she had gone to one of the other stores in the shopping center or something like that. Who knows how long she had been there. It's like 20 degrees outside. She was freezing cold. Could not get the rest of the way up the hill because it was genuinely really slippery and difficult to get up and down. So I helped her get down the hill. She was clearly drunk. And I don't mean that in any form of judgment.

Pat Millea [00:12:16]:
I mean more of, like, in the sadness of what. What circumstances are going on in her life, that. That felt like the best approach or the best coping strategy. You know, she made a brief mention of being in a bad relationship or something like that, but just needed to get back to her apartment so she could warm up, you know, so she could have walked around to get to her apartment up on the top of that hill kind of the long way. But she just asked if I had a car and if I would take her home. And I had this, again, this brief little thing of, like, there is the prudent side of it, right? Which is, like, if there is a threat of Physical danger. That is not a reason that somebody should extend themselves in generosity. Right.

Pat Millea [00:12:59]:
Like, if I were a small person and this was a large person, I don't think I would have given them a ride home. But there was no physical threat. What was more present was, was the human response of inconvenience. And this was not my plan for the morning. And that feeling is the hard. I think the whole situation was hard. Encountering somebody who is in a difficult situation and in physical, probably emotional strife is really difficult for anybody with empathy. But it was hard for me to run up against the.

Pat Millea [00:13:33]:
But I love convenience a lot still. And I don't enjoy self giving sometimes. So I gave a ride home. It was very simple. It cost me all of 10 minutes, this whole situation, you know. But it's fascinating how silly the human heart can be in looking at something like that as such a major inconvenience and problem for me. You know what I mean? So I, yeah, I said a lot of prayers for Jennifer on the way home, on the way back to the gym, I should say. And I have no idea what.

Pat Millea [00:14:11]:
What the rest of her life looks like. But it was, yeah, just a coming up against human suffering in just a really fascinating, odd way today. And suffering in me too. So.

Kenna Millea [00:14:26]:
Well, and I think we should put a pin in that and bring it back to our conversation today because you touch on so many things that I think would be good for us to unfold because that is a very human response to meeting someone's suffering. So I reserve the right to bring back your story.

Pat Millea [00:14:41]:
Deal.

Kenna Millea [00:14:43]:
But your high.

Pat Millea [00:14:44]:
Oh, that's right. I didn't do a high yet. I got so ingrained in my hard. All right, My high is much shorter. And it's way. It's silly. It's a shallow hard or, excuse me, a shallow high. But it's just one that I've really enjoyed lately.

Pat Millea [00:14:56]:
So here's the deal, Beth. There's a band who's a pop punk band called Blink 182, okay. And I did not appreciate their music when I was in high school and early college because it was just. They were in their juvenile kind of working out their parent issues stage, you know what I mean? Like, lots of adolescent humor and the kinds of lyrics that I don't need in my life. But in grad school, they kind of turned a corner and they became way more like thoughtful and deep and meaningful. You still have to. You got to pick your spots with Blink even after about 2005, because they kind of slip back into the old days a little bit. But there's a song that I just discovered like a month ago that I had never heard before in my entire life.

Pat Millea [00:15:39]:
There's a song called Not Now by blink182 that is musically just so good. And if punk music is not your thing, you won't like it. And it's fine, you don't have to listen to the song. But if it is at all, it's such a fun song. It's a song about a person who is having a near death experience and they're like seeing the light. They're on the brink of death, but they don't end up dying, which literally, like, scientifically, that does happen. And it's one of the many glimpses of God's work in our lives that science can't explain. So I just, I love the whole approach.

Pat Millea [00:16:13]:
The music is great, the lyrics are great. It's a. It's a fun song that I've just enjoyed lately. So I want to put it in the show notes. Really, that's the only reason I bring it up is I wanted to put it in the show notes and share it with all of you.

Beth Hlabse [00:16:24]:
So existential punk.

Pat Millea [00:16:30]:
Who knew, right?

Kenna Millea [00:16:31]:
I mean, that angst is coming from somewhere, guys. Like, let's be clear.

Beth Hlabse [00:16:34]:
That's true.

Pat Millea [00:16:35]:
That's true.

Kenna Millea [00:16:36]:
Yeah. I just want you to know that on the way to school this morning, our. One of our kid, one of our sons. So, Beth, part of what motivates our children to get in the van and get their seatbelts buckled and, you know, just, come on, guys, let's work as a team is that they get to pick a song. We create the playlist on the way to school. And in the middle of, you know, Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer and oh, Come, oh come Emanuel, you know, whatever, all the different things. One of your boys picked a Blink 182 song. I think it was something about the future.

Pat Millea [00:17:04]:
No future. Yep. That one is on the. That one's on the white list. That. That is an acceptable Blink song for children. There's a lot that are on the black list.

Kenna Millea [00:17:11]:
And so it gets started and our oldest daughter goes, ah, yes, the. The lesser known class Christmas classic from Blink182. Because it was like this. Like, where.

Kenna Millea [00:17:21]:
Where did this come from?

Pat Millea [00:17:22]:
If you're listening, Mark, Tom and Travis, I'm waiting on a Christmas album. So let's, let's get going.

Pat Millea [00:17:28]:
Come on.

Kenna Millea [00:17:29]:
Oh, my gosh. Well, yes. Let us turn then toward the topic at hand today. Beth, we've invited you here because Pat and I have received so much from conversations with you in these years of being in parallel ministries and moments when our ministries can intersect and, and we're like, man, it would just be so. It would be a gift to kick off this year with speaking to Beth about walking, with encountering those who have mental illness and certainly those, you know, like Pat's story today of those where. Who knows why the Lord brings us, you know, crosses our paths for a moment in time, and particularly those who we share intimate spaces with in our families, in our friend circles, in our communities, in our parishes.

Pat Millea [00:18:19]:
So that's.

Kenna Millea [00:18:19]:
That's the topic we're focused on today. And, you know, even for some of us who may maybe don't have or aren't aware of experience and close connection to family or friends, loved ones with mental illness, it can be uncomfortable to respond when. When it gets presented to us, when maybe we do feel or circumstances are such that it's being presented to us. So just to start us off, Beth, with this discussion around loving those with mental illness, and, and you are, you know, leading an organization that is also all about this work of integration. And so I expect that today we're going to hear both, you know, the theology and matters of faith as well as the science and what psychology and psychotherapy can offer us. Where should we begin? What. What kind of. Is the foundation that you want to set for us? Maybe a perspective or a vantage point to even approach this topic of loving those with mental illness?

Beth Hlabse [00:19:24]:
Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Kenna and Pat. And as we begin, I'm actually just.

Beth Hlabse [00:19:30]:
Drawn to thinking about the Scripture passage.

Beth Hlabse [00:19:33]:
Of the Good Samaritan.

Beth Hlabse [00:19:34]:
And I think, Pat, your experience this morning with this woman, it's a living expression of the Good Samaritan passage in different ways.

Beth Hlabse [00:19:45]:
And so the Lord, when he invites us to reflect on this experience with the Good Samaritan and to find ourself in the parable, you know, what's happening. There's this man on the side of the road who's in clear need. And maybe those passersby heard a groaning.

Beth Hlabse [00:20:06]:
Like you did this morning, Pat, and.

Beth Hlabse [00:20:08]:
Just thought, oh, you know, maybe I can step away.

Beth Hlabse [00:20:12]:
Maybe I can just. Maybe I'm not here. Something. Maybe I can continue on.

Beth Hlabse [00:20:16]:
We have our own agendas. We have our own expectations for the day. And yet in the parable, you know, what does the Lord reveal to us? Well, the Good Samaritan, he acts according to what he's able to do. He cares for the man to the extent that he's able in terms of bringing him to the inn and giving some money to the innkeeper. And he doesn't take the gentleman into his own home. He acts according to, like the bounds set by Christ in terms of what he's able to do. And he also recognizes that there are things others are called to do as well. And so his answering of a call is also inviting others to answer that call, to care for this man.

Beth Hlabse [00:21:04]:
And I was talking with a friend recently, recently about the parable, and she said, you know, Beth, something we can overlook with the parable is the way our Lord concludes with an invitation to reflect on, you know, one who is my own neighbor in my life, who is that, who is in need in my life? And then the exhortation to go and do likewise. Because I think when we think about mental illness and experiences of mental illness in a vacuum, sometimes we get into like an overly analytical theoretical place of, you know, what's the moral act, what's not. And in reality, the Lord is always asking us to act on behalf of the other in a way that sees that the other's need is bound up with me. In other words, like the other's well being or flourishing is bound up within my own flourishing. So my own well being and flourishing is bound up with the other. And that takes us into a really uncomfortable space because like you, Pat, I mean, naming this discomfort, I want to go about my day where I can.

Beth Hlabse [00:22:19]:
Have an agenda, have things just laid out for me, be able to anticipate what's next.

Beth Hlabse [00:22:26]:
And experiences of mental illness are just one particular expression of suffering that work so strongly against our preset plans for the day. And those very strong boundaries of this is where I begin and I end, and this is where the other begins and they end. Because serious mental illness calls us into the life of the other, where we enter into their suffering in a certain way. And so I think just beginning with that parable of like, let's begin to enter into this space in a prayerful way, asking of the Lord, lord, who is my neighbor? And as I'm entering into this conversation, help me to not just think about it in the abstract, but help me to recognize and to have the eyes to see who in my life maybe is suffering or maybe am I personally suffering? And what's the deeper invitation then to respond so that in our conversation today it can really be supportive of our discernment of what's the Lord asking of each of us.

Kenna Millea [00:23:34]:
I am so struck, Beth, by how countercultural that point is. Of our inherent communion, you know, that, that. That your good is bound up in my good. That is just 180 degrees from where we are as like, westernized modern Americans. Holy cow.

Pat Millea [00:23:59]:
And it kind of leans toward what I was going to ask you next as well, Beth. And it's around the idea of, you know, there is no one cause of mental illness that we have been able to identify in the world. I've heard you talk before about the ways that mental health exists kind of on a continuum. That it's not necessarily like I am mentally healthy or I am not, that there's a spectrum that we all find ourselves on that spectrum in some ways. What are some of the ways that you have seen or that you've read in research about? Just the ways that we as humans are vulnerable when it comes to our mental and emotional health.

Beth Hlabse [00:24:46]:
Yeah. Thanks, Pat. So we are vulnerable, and it's not just by strength of willpower or by holiness or prayerfulness that we can steel ourselves against the possibility of mental illness. Mental illness. It strikes sometimes in surprising ways, at surprising points of our life when we don't expect and when we're trying to understand what contributes to mental illness. It's really a coming together of multiple factors. Factors that are genetic, so that's to say I inherit it genetically from prior generations. Factors that are biological, so just unique to, like my biology as me versus the biology of my sister or mother.

Beth Hlabse [00:25:30]:
Factors that are environmental. And when we're thinking about environmental, it's principally stress in the environment and the way that registers in and through our nervous system, in and through our embodied self, in a more chronic way. Stress that we can't just move through in an adaptation, adaptive way. So factors genetic, biological, environmental, and then developmental and developmental, it really relates to environment. But when we're thinking about, especially from year zero to two, that is a tender developmental age where we're just very vulnerable to our environment. And so the way our parents interact with us, the way other adult parents presences interact with us, have a big impact on our neurobiological development and then impacting us later in life with outcomes that are social and emotional. And so these coming together of factors, it's very difficult for us to isolate out the contribution of any one factor. A great friend of mine is a neuroscientist who, who teaches, we teach together here at Notre Dame.

Beth Hlabse [00:26:44]:
And she said, beth, trying to isolate out any one factor's unique contribution to what makes me experience mental illness at this point in my life is like.

Beth Hlabse [00:26:56]:
Taking a beautifully baked gingerbread cookie, since we just came off the holiday season, and from that gingerbread cookie, trying to separate out the eggs, the butter, the flour, you can't do it.

Beth Hlabse [00:27:09]:
And so I think with all of that in mind, then to say, okay, in the presence of mental illness in myself or another, I'm going to want to go down that rabbit hole of trying to gain a sense of control by trying to understand exactly what made me this way. But, friends, we're not going to be able to understand fully the specific contributions of genes, biology, environment, and development. And so I think then that it asks us to begin to hold a different set of questions of, okay, in the presence of this vulnerability in myself or in another, then how am I called to respond?

Kenna Millea [00:27:51]:
So I'm hearing you say it's not as helpful to look in the rearview mirror and as it is to look forward and to consider what I'm being asked to do next. I mean, am I, am I hearing you right, Beth?

Beth Hlabse [00:28:06]:
Kenna, there's a both and response to

Beth Hlabse [00:28:09]:
that, because there is a helpfulness to looking in the rear view mirror.

Beth Hlabse [00:28:12]:
I mean, and I've heard you talk about this previously on your podcast. When we look at prior experiences, trauma relationships in early life, and how that might inform our experience of the present, that can be helpful in terms of then understanding our present reactions and way of engaging with others. The thing we just want to be cautious about is we can be, by nature, tend to oversimplify our analysis and to blame it then all on one factor.

Beth Hlabse [00:28:48]:
Right. I mean, unfortunate, but folks can say.

Beth Hlabse [00:28:51]:
Well, I went to therapy and I discovered it's all my mom's fault.

Beth Hlabse [00:28:55]:
I'm gonna blame it on my parents or on this particular experience of trauma. And in reality, yes, that probably had a contributing factor, and it's important to work through that in therapy or with supportive others.

Beth Hlabse [00:29:10]:
But there are other factors as well. So we don't want to get stuck in the blame game or kind of single attributions.

Kenna Millea [00:29:17]:
Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking about in, in your work, Beth, both as a clinician, but now as Fiat's program director. I imagine that people have confided in you that perhaps they've turned to the church to be that source of support. And I say church, like at large, right. To a pastor, to a pastoral care minister, to a fellow parishioner, you know, to someone that they thought could. Could be a source of support for them. And what they received was less than ideal. It left them wanting.

Kenna Millea [00:29:54]:
I think as, as a clinician who, who works particularly at the intersection of mental health and our Catholic faith. I find that there can be this. This way that. That we use our faith to, I don't know, defend against or guard ourselves against coming close to those who are experiencing mental illness. Maybe a hyper spiritualization of, like, that person clearly doesn't pray enough. That person clearly isn't leading a godly life. And so this is. We could even go as far as, like, their punishment or this is the natural consequence as a result, maybe taking a moral standpoint, even on it, how do you help people maybe move out of a sense of rigidity, A sense of.

Kenna Millea [00:30:45]:
Yeah, rigid is really all I can think of toward one that has more nuance, that has more compassion and a multifaceted way of understanding mental health specifically as it relates to leading a godly life.

Beth Hlabse [00:31:01]:
It's a challenging question, so thank you. I was hoping you could be here.

Kenna Millea [00:31:05]:
To answer it, because I.

Beth Hlabse [00:31:08]:
Let's wrestle with it together.

Kenna Millea [00:31:10]:
Yeah.

Beth Hlabse [00:31:11]:
So I'd like to speak first to a document from the church and then from that to speak practically.

Beth Hlabse [00:31:19]:
In 2018, the California Conference of Catholic Bishops, they were the first conference of bishops to come out with a statement on accompaniment of those with mental illness. And in the statement, they make this beautiful expression. They say, we need to work to overcome a tendency of us versus them when we encounter another with mental illness, because all of us are wounded by the effect of the fall. All of us are wounded by original sin. And this original wounding contributes to a fracturing and fragmenting of our relationship with God, creation, one another, and within ourselves. So that, yeah, my mind can feel at odds from my body. The kind of experience of depression or anxiety that's emerging in me can be at odds with what I profess to be true about myself as a beloved child of God. It can feel like a real tension.

Beth Hlabse [00:32:23]:
And so they say, you know, it's important to recognize that by consequence of the fall, there exists the possibility in each one of us for psychological and medical expressions of illness. And so then in our efforts of accompaniment, how do we see our common vulnerability? Rather than just blaming another person for their experience of illness, blaming it on moral culpability or spiritual culpability. And that's then interesting in terms of how that informs our path forward. It shifts the posture from me being kind of the judge over my neighbor, who I find at church, who maybe I'm pretty uncomfortable about because of the way their symptoms are coming out and they're their life, and instead says, instead of me just being the judge and taskmaster, how am I called to go and do likewise following the parable of the Good Samaritan. And so when I'm then walking with folks in my work. So with the fiat program on faith and mental health, we accompany men and women who serve in the church over a 10 week course of formation. And we say that the focus of that formation is really to help them grow in the knowledge and the habits of accompaniment so that they can better walk with those experiencing mental illness and better strengthen hope and belonging within their home communities so that it's not just.

Beth Hlabse [00:33:59]:
A one to one walking, but others are walking together.

Beth Hlabse [00:34:03]:
We say this begins with cultivating some awareness of ourselves and our own tendencies of how we tend to react to other people.

Beth Hlabse [00:34:14]:
And so Pat, thank you for your honest acknowledgement of the heart at the beginning. This is exactly what we try to.

Beth Hlabse [00:34:22]:
Do in fiat is to say, you know, what do I notice when I'm interacting with another person who's suffering and maybe experience experiencing the suffering of mental illness. So maybe there's someone in the pews at church who speaks in a way that makes me think they don't have the firmest grasp of reality. And I'm wondering, oh, maybe they do experience like some psychosis even, you know, maybe there's a serious mental illness and I'm a little bit afraid when I interact with them. And because of that fear, do I withdraw just to notice that? And there can be a healthy fear, right, that helps us to recognize there are limitations on what I can do.

Beth Hlabse [00:35:06]:
And I need to draw in some reserves of others to ensure that I'm.

Beth Hlabse [00:35:10]:
Safe and the person is safe in this moment. Another example would be like, you know, if a parishioner were to come forth to their priest and to say, you know, I'm just suffering so much, I can't get out of bed. And to begin to recount maybe different expressions that would suggest this person is dealing with some serious depression. I'd invite that pastor to just, you know, notice what your reaction is, notice your personal discomfort and how that might be coming forth in us.

Beth Hlabse [00:35:47]:
Oftentimes our emotions show up first

Beth Hlabse [00:35:49]:
physiologically. For me, I get tight in my chest or tight in my shoulders and then to kind of say, huh, to interrogate what are those physiological symptoms.

Beth Hlabse [00:36:00]:
Suggesting nervousness, fear, maybe certain other things, A sense where I need to be.

Beth Hlabse [00:36:06]:
In control and what are my tendencies in terms of when I'm feeling those emotions and the presence of another. And so many of the men and women who go through our courses say, ah, my tendency is to want to fix it and to problem solve and say, that's not necessarily bad, but we can operate out of those tendencies so as to mitigate our own discomfort rather than to truly care for and accompany the other. And so we say, you know what if instead we were to just slow down a bit in that moment where we're meeting someone in distress, to ask for the grace of the Holy Spirit.

Beth Hlabse [00:36:47]:
To breathe, to help calm down our.

Beth Hlabse [00:36:49]:
Own emotional response, to notice what's coming forth so that instead of just reacting, I can slow down and I can begin to just ask the person some open ended questions, kind of provide a more comforting, calming presence, you know, could you tell me a little bit more about what, what's going on? Explore with them what they've sought in terms of resources or supports that way instead of giving advice that maybe they've already thought about and thought through the barriers to why they can't do that. Instead I'm just beginning to kind of draw out and to express to them I still believe that they have a capacity for insight and coming to awareness of what might be a helpful next step for them. I don't have to provide it. So maybe that slows down the conversation.

Beth Hlabse [00:37:39]:
From being three minutes where I'm hurried and just want to kind of mitigate my own discomfort and get on to the next parishioner. To instead like 20 minutes where I can sit with the person and then.

Beth Hlabse [00:37:52]:
At the end say, you know, what are some next steps? And maybe it's them talking with me again, but maybe it's we're identifying who and else they need to talk to. You know, maybe we, I recognize this is kind of exceeding my limits and so maybe we can talk about therapists or other resources in their life.

Beth Hlabse [00:38:12]:
That was a long winded answer. So thank you for bearing with me.

Kenna Millea [00:38:17]:
It was a, it was a big, complex question and I think something that's striking me as brand new, Beth, in what you said, and it goes back to what you talked about with the Good Samaritan, is you said, I'm going to paraphrase here, but like, my response of discomfort is likely often rooted in this unspoken, subconscious, even expectation that my role here is to fix it, which isn't reality. Like, number one, the person may not even be asking that of you. And number two, back to that capability, you know, question of like, that's not in my capabilities. So that's not even, even if they did ask it of me, that's not even. So what I'm actually being asked of, we could say like by the Lord, ultimately is to accompany. Right. To be a presence of compassion, to be a presence of empathy and a presence of dignity, of really honoring this human that's before me. And, like, that.

Kenna Millea [00:39:15]:
I felt my own shoulders when you said that, like, soften of, like, Oh, I didn't even realize that. For me, I regularly kind of like, I'm gearing up of, like, okay, here comes the heavy lifting when I encounter someone. And to, like, be relieved of that. Of like, that's not even actually what's. What's going on here. That's in my head. But that's not what's happening between us right now. So thank you for that.

Beth Hlabse [00:39:39]:
Well, I can totally relate, Kenna and I, as someone who unfortunately has a tendency to assume wrongful responsibility for others just in a way where, no, I can walk with, but I can't take on their emotional state as my responsibility. That is so disorienting.

Beth Hlabse [00:39:58]:
So to breathe and to say, as you said, what is my role, what isn't my role, and what's within my capabilities.

Pat Millea [00:40:04]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:40:05]:
Love it.

Pat Millea [00:40:06]:
Before I forget, too, I need to put in a plug for the Fiat cohorts because I am a proud graduate of the Fiat cohort program myself. And so for any pastors, parish ministers, Catholic school leaders, faculty, uber volunteers, that the church doesn't pay you, but they really should just. This is a great program to. Even if you don't work in any direct way with people experiencing mental illness or mental health struggles, it's just such a great and beautiful process of thinking through, not just systems of accompaniment. That sounds like a program, and I don't mean a program, but like the approach of accompaniment and genuine, like, journeying with a person in ministry that all of us are called to in some degree. So you should check it out. I'll put a link in the show notes with Beth's bio that you can check that out as well. But it also leads me, the way you're speaking, Beth, about the ways that, especially maybe a parish community can meet the needs of the people of God.

Pat Millea [00:41:09]:
So much of it has to do with just that, with it being a community. And again, there's no one cause of mental illness, but there's been lots of studies and research done about the direct link between isolation and loneliness and mental illness, both as one of the many causes, significant causes of mental illness, but also that community is one of the most significant remedies for mental illness. And even if it's not a mental illness that will ever be cured, that something like community gives a person a great Chance at a joyful, fruitful, and coherent life, a hope for the future. You know, what have you seen, Beth, either in, you know, in the research, but even more in the folks that you've encountered in your work and with fiat that has given you examples of what isolation does to somebody, and what are the ways that the church in particular can, and I would maybe even say should be the community to kind of meet people in this moment.

Beth Hlabse [00:42:15]:
Pat this is really at the heart of the mental health crisis that we're living through. And I believe it speaks to the essence of how we as a church are called to respond. So we are living through a day and age of such profound loneliness and isolation. We are digitally connected, and yet we don't have authentic human connection where we're able to know and to be known. And then for men and women who experience more serious mental illness, the nature of the illness tends to be so profoundly isolating. And when I'm talking about serious mental illness, it could include any diagnosis, but we do see that more often those diagnoses. Wow, struggling with that word, but you know what I mean. That fall into that category are experiences that would involve some psychosis, a sense of disreality, like schizophrenia.

Beth Hlabse [00:43:15]:
So often bipolar can fall into that realm of serious mental illness, personality disorders. But we can see men and women with depression, eating disorders, anxiety, other experiences falling into that realm. As you named before, Pat it's really a continuum when we're talking about mental health to mental illness. And so when someone is experiencing serious mental illness, it really renders them unable to just participate in those elements of daily life that we take for granted. Work, school, family life, community life. And for someone on the end, outside, we don't get it. We're like, can't you just try harder? You know, what about your willpower? And so, unfortunately, so often we respond with judgment, which further exacerbates that isolation. And this can happen in families because a family can experience all the suffering of that family member living with mental illness, but they can't experience it from the inside.

Beth Hlabse [00:44:21]:
They're hurt by it. And so we begin to kind of level levy judgment because it feels like we're more in control and we're more safe, and so that person becomes more isolated. Or for those few family members who continue to rally around and try to provide support, they end up so often kind of really entering in and feeling overwhelmed by the emotions, the negative cognitions, just the overall distress that is part of that mental illness, that they too become isolated. And so, Tom Insel who had been the director of the National Institute of Mental Health for a number of years. He says loneliness is both a cause and an effect of mental illness. And later in a book that he came out with a few years ago called Healing, he said the crucial element for supporting those with mental illness that unfortunately we have overlooked as clinicians is community. And so the church, I think we.

Beth Hlabse [00:45:25]:
Are uniquely called to provide community, to provide belonging, which ultimately is reflective of our communion in and through Christ and the sacramental life. We're called to provide this to one another.

Beth Hlabse [00:45:40]:
So let's speak a bit more practically about this. You know, what this means and what this looks like. I have a dear, dear friend who has welcomed me to share her story. And she is a brilliant woman who had a very successful career and in her 20s experienced her first psychotic break. She was doing a PhD here at Notre Dame at that time. So she went from an active life coursework, PhD community, to all of a sudden losing her sense of reality as that came down with the psychotic break. And so many folks, peers at others, they couldn't understand the symptoms, so they begin to withdraw from her.

Beth Hlabse [00:46:24]:
Meanwhile, by nature of the symptoms, she had a great deal of distrust in others because of the psychotic, the way.

Beth Hlabse [00:46:32]:
The psychosis was presenting. So she herself began to withdraw. So she's withdrawing with the symptoms. And then, you know, after time, her parents begin to realize, my goodness, something is happening that we don't understand. She goes to a series of doctors. Eventually they come to recognize we need to get her to inpatient care. We're not quite sure what's going on. And she was hospitalized, that hospitalization was crucial to her safety.

Beth Hlabse [00:47:02]:
But what happens thereafter? She comes out of the hospital, she has to drop out of school, she can't maintain full time work. Her social interactions are reduced to a meeting with a caseworker, a therapist once a week, maybe a group therapy. That's about three hours over the course, course of a week and maybe some interactions with her family. So her social fabric has just been ruptured. Those experiences that provided that rich life day to day.

Beth Hlabse [00:47:36]:
She is a beautiful, persevering woman and 10 years later has rebuilt a sense.

Beth Hlabse [00:47:42]:
Of community and medication, family supports, friends have been so essential. So what are a few things that we can keep in mind then as a church community, if we're trying to offer that sense of community? Well, one, you know, if someone is experiencing mental illness, there's what we can offer and there's what we can't offer.

Beth Hlabse [00:48:04]:
And so we need to recognize we.

Beth Hlabse [00:48:06]:
Can strive to offer community, but we also need to help support that person so that they're getting care and treatment outside of the church community. So ideally we can support them in identifying therapists in the area, maybe options for group therapy. NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness, is a good clearinghouse for resources in the area. And then to say, are there possibilities for offering a prayer and faith sharing group group where folks can come together? So different men and women who've gone through our courses have founded in their.

Beth Hlabse [00:48:44]:
Parishes different prayer and faith sharing groups. Some of them are called Hope for Mental Health, others are called Compassion Connection or there's a beautiful community in California. They call themselves, oh gosh, something along the lines of Compassion Connection. I can't remember, it's translated Spanish to English.

Beth Hlabse [00:49:07]:
And what is it? It's a chance to just come together and to say we're going to pray.

Beth Hlabse [00:49:11]:
With scripture, we're going to share in a supportive community.

Beth Hlabse [00:49:14]:
And the men and women who lead those groups have gone through our Fiat training and through some additional training with nami. I think if you're in a place where you say, oh, our parish isn't ready to do something like that, how might we invite someone in other areas of parish life and not just to say, hey, you should go to this, but hey, you know, would you ever think about coming to this Bible study? I go there and I could be happy to meet you at the parish. Or oftentimes those with serious mental illness have trouble finding rides. So maybe we need to think about how they could get a ride to go there and you know, so that if it's not me who's welcoming them, someone else can welcome them, that there's a handoff, a friend. And another then crucial element, in addition to just identifying ways to bring them in to the faith community is also identifying ways to recognize their gifts. So often mental illness can overshadow a person such that they feel like it's all of them. Right? I am my diagnosis. And unfortunately we begin to, to see them in that way and to interact with them in that way because of the intensity of the symptoms and so to pray, Lord, help me to see the goodness and gifts of this person and to walk with them in recognizing those gifts.

Beth Hlabse [00:50:33]:
And then how do we invite them to share those gifts in the faith community? So maybe there are possibilities for them to participate in some of our more service oriented ministries. Right? Could they join in cooking meals as part of our funeral meal apostolate or serving as a lector or a greeter? My dear Friend who has been on.

Beth Hlabse [00:50:57]:
This great journey is truly gifted in the area of computers and computer science and she is not able to work.

Beth Hlabse [00:51:06]:
Full time right now. So what she does is she offers.

Beth Hlabse [00:51:09]:
Computer tutoring and, and she advertises it through our parish here in the community. They meet at the grocery store cafe next to the parish. And that's such a beautiful way. She is using her gifts in a way that's so needed within the community.

Beth Hlabse [00:51:25]:
And so, you know, how can we be detectors of the goodness and giftedness of others and invite them to share, not just to receive?

Pat Millea [00:51:35]:
I love that. That's such a beautiful framework. I think of how to approach this in a way that, as you said, I think it gets complex only in the sense that there's no clear black and white. I think on the one end of the spectrum there's allowing too much distance between myself and someone who's struggling with their mental health out of a place of self protection, maybe self defense, fear, my own anxiety. So there's a distance, kind of a cutoff that way. But then there's the opposite danger, maybe of losing myself in the person's experience and being tempted to give more than I have to give or to take on things that are not mine to take on. And you know, what I hear you offering, Beth, is that there's no hard and fast rule in every circumstance with every family member or every parishioner that, oh, this is where I need to really make sure that I'm being aware of what's mine and what's not. That it's going to be an ongoing process of discernment and prayer and conversation and self reflection.

Pat Millea [00:52:53]:
Are there any maybe thoughts or tips? Makes it sound too cute. I don't really mean anything really pithy, but are there any pointers that you might offer to folks about where they might be finding themselves on that line, where they might be bumping up against this might be the limitation of my ability, my time, my energy, anything to pay attention to there.

Beth Hlabse [00:53:19]:
Thanks, Pat. This is an area where I personally really struggle and continue to ask the Lord for wisdom. And as you named, it's not black and white. Gosh, we wish it were black and white. And some of the literature out there about boundaries acts as though boundaries are black and white, but it's messy to navigate. I was speaking with a friend and fellow psychologist about this the other day and in that conversation I was reminded that the Lord has entrusted us with stewardship over our persons. And when we are caring for another who is experiencing mental illness, so often their kind of vision, their ability to care for their person is really impaired. And so we want to help them grow in the capacity to care for their person.

Beth Hlabse [00:54:16]:
And in so doing, we can stop caring for our own person.

Beth Hlabse [00:54:20]:
Right?

Beth Hlabse [00:54:21]:
We can enter into their emotional world.

Beth Hlabse [00:54:23]:
And their suffering can live inside of us. And so when we're thinking then about this stewardship of my person and stewardship of their person, boundaries is something that we think about. And certainly external boundaries are worth discerning and pursuing.

Beth Hlabse [00:54:44]:
You know, as a therapist, I wouldn't answer phone calls and check email when I went home for the day. But I soon discovered that external boundary.

Beth Hlabse [00:54:55]:
Wasn't enough because what was I doing? I was worrying about the amazing men.

Beth Hlabse [00:55:01]:
And women who I was accompanying as my. Who were my clients. I was ruminating about those tough circumstances that I couldn't quite figure out how to better support them.

Beth Hlabse [00:55:13]:
So there was an internal boundary there that I was not attending to, and I was getting really worn out. And I think these internal boundaries become even more complex among our friends and our family members. Because we're so intimately knit together. The Lord created us in such a way where we're to going. Going to be more affected. And so it just strikes me as a continual process of discernment, of saying, lord, help me to cultivate some stillness today, to just notice how I'm experiencing this and to even begin to attune, wow, what am I experiencing physiologically? Is there tension? Is there heaviness? How am I carrying this in my body? We're embodied souls. What does that indicate in the realm of emotions? Right? The worry, the fear, the anxiety? Lord, what are you perhaps wanting to reveal to me about that which is mine to hold and that which is not mine to hold? Because again, for me, that's where a.

Beth Hlabse [00:56:21]:
Disordered sense of I need to be the king keeper of my brother's or sister's emotions enters in. And I need to continue to bring.

Beth Hlabse [00:56:29]:
That to prayer, to pour it out like, Lord, take this from me so that I can love your child, this child of God who is in my life in the appropriate way and to ask to be replenished. But it's this we need to build in that reflective space. And I think we need talking partners to help us in that. I mean, especially some of my dear friends who have children with serious mental illness, they participate in the NAMI national alliance on Mental Illness, Family to family support groups.

Beth Hlabse [00:57:06]:
In parishes, we now have prayer and support groups emerging for family members of those with mental illness.

Beth Hlabse [00:57:12]:
But maybe it's just are there several friends in my life? But how am I invited to reflect with others so that it's not just reflection that's happening in a silo? And so those are I think just. It's a continual experience of just prayer, asking the Lord to help us grow in insight, asking the Lord to help place those others in our lives who can help us because it is messy.

Beth Hlabse [00:57:39]:
And it's not clearly mess black and white for us to discern what are those external. And then what are the external boundaries.

Beth Hlabse [00:57:46]:
I need to put in place? And then what is the internal work that I need to do?

Pat Millea [00:57:53]:
And based on what you let us know ahead of time, it strikes me that maybe that dovetails perfectly with a challenge by choice that you might offer to our listeners. So what would you maybe propose in terms of making this process practical for you, each of us?

Beth Hlabse [00:58:07]:
Absolutely. So I team teach these undergraduate seminars here at Notre Dame, cross listed in neuroscience and theology and they are so much fun. And a few years ago one of our students in going through the course.

Beth Hlabse [00:58:21]:
With us, he was like, ah, I think a theme of the course is respond instead of react.

Beth Hlabse [00:58:28]:
I said, yeah, you named it. So how might a practice for each of us or a challenge be this.

Beth Hlabse [00:58:37]:
Moving from reaction to responding. And so just a few thoughts on that.

Beth Hlabse [00:58:42]:
If you'd like to try to practice.

Beth Hlabse [00:58:44]:
This in your daily life, set aside some time, it could be part of an evening examen or midday or morning to just notice, okay Lord, what were some times in my day where I.

Beth Hlabse [00:58:56]:
Had most stronger emotions and maybe they were present in some of my interactions with others.

Beth Hlabse [00:59:01]:
Right.

Beth Hlabse [00:59:02]:
So often that happens in the workplace or with family or friends and to.

Beth Hlabse [00:59:06]:
Sit with our Lord and go through a process of just reflection, breathing deep, asking for the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. Alright Lord, help me to see this experience of being in strong emotion in a way that's going guided by your wisdom so that I can see reality more fully, which is to see truth. And first to ask like Lord, just help me to notice what was my physiological response? What was happening in the body in.

Beth Hlabse [00:59:35]:
That time of strong emotion? So often it's tightness in chest, tightness in shoulders, sick stomach, racing heart, something's going on.

Beth Hlabse [00:59:44]:
So help me to notice that. Maybe we want to journal that. And then after noting what was happening physiologically. All right, what emotions were maybe being indicated by those physiological experiences? So even beyond that first emotion that I noted of anger, was there also some fear, some insecurity, some sadness, Just inviting the Lord to bring that up and then you know, asking the Lord, like, what were the thoughts that I was having in that moment?

Beth Hlabse [01:00:17]:
Because oftentimes in times of high emotion, our prefrontal cortex gets hijacked. That's what we associate with so much of our logical thinking, executive functioning. And so we have racing thoughts, or.

Beth Hlabse [01:00:30]:
We feel cloudy headed, or we have.

Beth Hlabse [01:00:32]:
A lot of negative cognitions, like negative thoughts that aren't fully grounded in truth, where we're blaming ourselves, we're blaming the other. There's just negative talk.

Beth Hlabse [01:00:41]:
So just notice, okay, Lord, what was.

Beth Hlabse [01:00:44]:
Happening for me in the realm of my thoughts? And then the fourth after kind of.

Beth Hlabse [01:00:49]:
Physiologically, emotionally, thought wise, how did I react in that moment? So was I quick to mistrust my colleague? Did I try to problem solve?

Beth Hlabse [01:01:02]:
Did I have a snappy comment? Did I withdraw? I'm a classic withdraw person.

Beth Hlabse [01:01:08]:
And to just sit with that and then asking the grace of the Holy Spirit, you know, like, what would it look like to move to a posture of responding instead of reacting? What might you have been calling me to in terms of truly tending to myself and tending to the other? What we would like to get to.

Beth Hlabse [01:01:31]:
Is that we can then, in real time, slow down enough so as to respond instead of react. And we're going to have various moments of being super emotional where we're reactive instead of responding. Viktor Frankl, who developed, survived the Nazi concentration camps, came to the United States, wonderful psychotherapist, wrote Man's Search for Meaning.

Beth Hlabse [01:01:54]:
Viktor Frankl said freedom is the space between stimulus and response.

Beth Hlabse [01:02:00]:
And so after maybe practicing some of this reflection in your day to day.

Beth Hlabse [01:02:05]:
I then invite you to ask for.

Beth Hlabse [01:02:07]:
The Lord's help, the Holy Spirit's help, such that in those moments where you notice, oh my goodness, I'm so emotional right now, I'm two steps already into reacting. To breathe, to slow down. Actually, like tapping back and forth right to left can be helpful. Also going for a walk, but if you have to be stationary, I'll like tap with my heels in a way that's not too visible.

Beth Hlabse [01:02:31]:
Just gently right, left, right, left, breathe like, Lord, help me to be with you in this moment so that I can respond lovingly to myself, to the.

Beth Hlabse [01:02:44]:
Other instead of just reacting. And that I have the greatest aspirations for. And I think the Lord invites me to talk about it so as to encourage me to keep trying and to not give up because it's hard. So a few thoughts on moving from reaction to response.

Kenna Millea [01:03:05]:
Oh, I love it, I love it. And yeah, just, I mean, you've talked about the physiological reality You've talked about the neurological reality, you know, moving out of that fight flight freeze back into that prefrontal cortex, but also this spiritual reality of, like, to react is to really be often cut off from what the Holy Spirit is prompting us to. And choosing to be in a place of response is a place of freedom, is a place of agency, but is really a posture of discipleship, too, of, okay, Lord, you know, where do you. Do you call me next? So thank you. Thank you so much, Beth. I, you know, we spent some time together, and I'm like, is there more.

Kenna Millea [01:03:47]:
She can teach me?

Kenna Millea [01:03:48]:
Yes, always.

Beth Hlabse [01:03:50]:
This has been a joy. Thank you.

Kenna Millea [01:03:53]:
Yeah. Would you mind closing us in prayer, Beth, as we wrap up this episode?

Beth Hlabse [01:03:58]:
Thank you.

Beth Hlabse [01:03:59]:
I'd love to.

Beth Hlabse [01:04:01]:
As we prepare to pray, let's take.

Beth Hlabse [01:04:03]:
A few deep breaths.

Beth Hlabse [01:04:04]:
The Holy Spirit is the breath of life and ask the Lord to help us just grow in an awareness and care for ourselves as embodied souls. Let's begin. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Loving God, you are the light who shines through the darkness. In those seasons of life where we experience profound darkness, whether for reasons of mental illness or other causes of suffering, we pray that we can grow in hope, in faith, and in love. We pray that we can grow in the faith and belief, in the words of the psalmist in Psalm 139, that we are fearfully and wonderfully made. And for this, we praise you.

Beth Hlabse [01:05:15]:
We uplift this day all those who experience the incredible anguish and despair that can come with mental health suffering. And as we uplift them in prayer, we ask, Lord, that we as a people might better care for one another, to see one another. As St. Paul says in the Corinthians, as members of one body, that when one part of the body suffers, all suffer with it. Help us to see in our neighborhood your beloved child. Help us to respond to the invitation to walk with and to accompany one another, and help us as a church, to live out our communion in and through forging stronger communities of belonging and hope. We ask all these things in your name through the intercession of Mary, our mother, as we pray in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Pat Millea [01:06:23]:
Amen.

Kenna Millea [01:06:26]:
Thank you again, Beth. As we sign off here, I'm wondering if you can share a bit about how people can be connected to you, how people can learn more about Fiat. Where can they find you?

Beth Hlabse [01:06:36]:
Absolutely. Kenna, thank you so much. So, please, if anyone's interested in the Fiat program and our Fiat course on mental health and church life. We'd love to share more with you. You can find us if you just search on the Internet for the McGrath Institute for Church Life and then the.

Beth Hlabse [01:06:56]:
Fiat Program on Faith and Mental Health. And so Fiat Program on Faith and Mental Health. We're based at the McGrath Institute, which.

Beth Hlabse [01:07:04]:
Is based at the University of Notre Dame.

Beth Hlabse [01:07:06]:
My contact information is listed there, including.

Beth Hlabse [01:07:09]:
A direct link where you can reach out to me, send me an email. I'd love to hear from you and.

Beth Hlabse [01:07:14]:
See how we might invite you to get involved with our Fiat program.

Kenna Millea [01:07:19]:
Perfect. And we can link all of that up, too, on our show notes.

Pat Millea [01:07:21]:
It'll be in the description, the show notes, all over the place. It'll be hard to miss. Yeah.

Beth Hlabse [01:07:25]:
Thank you, friends.

Kenna Millea [01:07:27]:
Well, thank you again, Beth Hlabse. Good to be with you, my darling, for another episode of This Whole Life, kicking off an awesome season here in 2026. Thank you to you, our listeners, for journeying with us again on another important topic at the intersection of our faith and mental health. Follow along on all the socials @thiswholelifepodcast and find us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com and until next time, God bless you.

Pat Millea [01:07:53]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center for Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.