Ep94 He Leadeth Me, Part 1

“Learning the full truth of our dependence upon God and our relation to his will is what the virtue of humility is all about."
~ Fr. Walter Ciszek

Does suffering have a purpose?
What does humility mean for me?
How can I tell God's will from my will?

In episode 94 of This Whole Life, Kenna, Pat & Fr. Nathan kick off their Lenten book study on He Leadeth Me by Fr. Walter Ciszek. In part 1, they dive into the prologue through chapter 7, reflecting on the meaning of suffering, the mystery of God’s providence, and the challenge of surrender. With humor and honesty, the trio relate Fr. Ciszek’s profound lessons on humility, discernment, and finding God in challenging moments. They explore the tension between faith and understanding, and the importance of authentic humility in everyday encounters. Tune in for practical insights, heartfelt stories, and a challenge to deepen your relationship with the Lord this Lent. Come back for Part 2 & 3!

Episode 94 Show Notes

Reflection Questions

Chapters:
0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
12:51: He Leadeth Me & the problem of suffering
26:28: The torture of isolation & finding God's will
37:07: No situation is without worth in God's providence
44:48: Evangelizing amid questions & doubts
50:47: He Leadeth Me - humility & dependence on God
58:02: Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:00:00]:
When I am able to say, here's who I am, here's how I'm responding, here's where I need to change, that's true, and that's humility.

Kenna Millea [00:00:16]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm with my husband, Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader. We invite you to our kitchen table. Okay, not literally, but, but you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes. We're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes. It is not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care. So let's get talking about This Whole Life. Welcome back to This Whole Life and welcome to our Lent book study.

Kenna Millea [00:01:13]:
Gentlemen, welcome to the studio.

Pat Millea [00:01:15]:
Yay to the book study, boo to Lent. Excited to dive into He Leadeth Me by Father Walter Ciszek with you today, which is a good place, by the way, to just make note that we will pronounce his last name 1,017 different ways.

Kenna Millea [00:01:31]:
Depends on where my mouth moves and how my—

Pat Millea [00:01:32]:
that's right. So to all of our Polish friends out there, I would like to apologize formally on behalf of This Whole Life for all the ways that we pronounce this name.

Kenna Millea [00:01:40]:
I'm also open to correction and any phonetic spellings you want to send my way, but just know I'm trying my best. Okay, okay. Um, but no, it's good to be with you, my love, and good to be with you, Father.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:01:50]:
Thank you.

Kenna Millea [00:01:50]:
Yeah, to have you with us for this 3-part series on this book that we have all read previously, um, that has, yeah, impacted us. And so it just felt like a no-brainer of like, yeah, let's talk about it together, let's, let's dive in together. But before we dive into that, let's check in on life lately with highs and hearts. Father, thank you very much.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:10]:
Yeah, so, uh, my high right now is I am nearing the end of the coursework for my program. And so, whoa, I am—

Kenna Millea [00:02:19]:
didn't it feel like you were never going to get here?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:21]:
It kind of did.

Kenna Millea [00:02:21]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:22]:
And then it just— and then you're here really fast. But I also too crammed all classes in really tight confines so that when I'm doing practicum, I can do practicum.

Pat Millea [00:02:29]:
About 38 units per semester or whatever.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:32]:
It was enough. It was enough. But I am— so I'm feeling really, really good about that. And, uh, the class has been so beneficial. Uh, highlight of the class is this semester is psychophysiology. So learning about how the brain works with the chemicals and behavior and how your behavior impa— it's just like, it's so fascinating to me and I love this stuff.

Pat Millea [00:02:51]:
So that's awesome.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:02:53]:
Um, The fact that the light at the end of the tunnel is good and the train is not coming to crush me, but I'm getting out is amazing. The low would be this semester where St. Mary's is located, it's been in the heart of a lot of the unrest. And so all the classes have been remote since the beginning of the semester.

Pat Millea [00:03:11]:
Oh, seriously?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:12]:
And so they will be through the first term. So we won't be back in person until March 1st. So it's been, one of the things I love about my program is the peer interaction and things like that. This. And plus as chaplain in the school too, like it's just weird not to have students. Like I'm still meeting over Zoom and stuff with people, but very few students are coming right into campus. Like we just, we even had to cancel our graduation ceremony, which is this past Saturday. And so it's just, it's just had kind of a weird feel to it.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:44]:
And I mean, just like even when the pandemic happened, right?

Pat Millea [00:03:46]:
And I was just going to say it's like half COVID.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:03:48]:
It is similar to that. So like I, what would really broke me in COVID is I love people. People. And so like to not have that interaction was really hard. And it's the same kind of thing, it's just kind of a— it's a hard— and I mean, to say that that's hard amidst all the hard things that are going on for people, I mean, it's not even comparison, but it has just been an irregularity.

Pat Millea [00:04:06]:
Yeah, right, right. Huh.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:04:08]:
But that's fine.

Kenna Millea [00:04:09]:
Yeah, yeah. And again, you know, it's difficult to be remote for many different fields, but particularly in psychotherapy, it's like, come on, like to not be with people just feels antithetical to what we're trying to do. So, well, I can go next. And I would say a hard is just like those days, seasons where you are just not feeling up for all that life is handing you. And yet you must like soldier on and put one foot in front of the other. And yeah, figuring out how do we, you know, pull ourselves out of, maybe a mood or a season like that while life still is happening? How do you, how do you take enough space away to reflect and kind of consider what is it that I need? Like, what is causing this while needing to just show up and keep doing the things? And that's part of being a spouse and a parent and a business owner and all the things. So that has been challenging. With that, I was stuck in traffic on, for those locals, on 494, which you know can feel interminable, yesterday.

Kenna Millea [00:05:24]:
And I had this thought about my grandpa, who is in his late 80s, and he's a former attorney and just a really bright mind. And I just wondered, like, what is he thinking about what is going on with immigration and the civil unrest? And he's just a very, yeah, level-headed, um, really open guy. So I called him. I told Pat this later, and he's like, you just called him and asked him his opinion? And I was like, I really did. Like, I broke all the social rules. And he was watching golf, taking a nap, and I was like, hey Grandpa, do you want to talk about immigration?

Pat Millea [00:06:03]:
I don't know how many people in my life I feel comfortable just cold calling. It's like, hey, what are your thoughts on immigration or gun control or abortion? You tell me.

Kenna Millea [00:06:12]:
I hadn't seen him since Christmas Eve, and I was like, Grandpa, do you want to chat? And It was so great, and he kept me company for half an hour, and, um, we chatted, and we only hung up because I had to go make dinner. But, um, but it was just so wonderful to, you know, in, in this world of so much noise and so much dissension and division, to like really have an intellectual conversation of like, what does the Constitution say? Like, you know, how should we be guided, um, by our, by our nation's like founding principles? And where does our integrity meet that? So it was so good, and we talked about next time we chat, we're gonna discuss the 24-hour news cycle and like, what can we do to discover truth in the midst of this world? So that was my high.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:06:54]:
What a great resource.

Pat Millea [00:06:56]:
That's so great. I love that.

Kenna Millea [00:06:57]:
Yeah, that is—

Pat Millea [00:06:58]:
it's genuinely gutsy that years ago, in the middle of like, I don't know if it was the beginning of some of the like division that we know in our nation right now, or if it was far enough along the road that we could identify it. But we had this grand idea once of bringing together like 5 couples or something like that for a dinner party and specifically choosing 5 couples that represent, represent 5 different viewpoints on things and just laying some ground rules of just like, we're all in this together. You and I, we're all about charity here, but like, let's go. Like, let's get into it.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:31]:
Agatha Christie wrote a book on that.

Pat Millea [00:07:33]:
Seriously?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:07:33]:
Yeah. And Then There Was None.

Pat Millea [00:07:34]:
Oh, So what you're saying is probably a good thing that we didn't do it. I try to avoid felonies in my life. Um, thank you for that. I'm glad that you did that. That's great. Yeah, it's awesome. Truly. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:07:56]:
Um, I think my, uh, hard— one of my hards lately has just been, um, being surprised at, uh, kind of your struggles with sleep are well cataloged and documented. I do not struggle with sleep. So it's been really strange that I've had like some odd nightmares lately that like for the first time, maybe in our marriage, Kenna had to poke me one night because I was like screaming or something in my sleep. I don't know what I was doing on the outside, but on the inside I was being interrogated by a person who then cloned into 3 versions of the— No, I was not. No, none of the Soviets cloned themselves as far as I can tell, although they wouldn't probably be past it. So it just— random nights of like unrestful sleep and waking up tired. And I always wake up miserable because I hate the mornings, but I don't usually wake up because I didn't sleep very well, being exhausted in that way. So I'll work on it and see what happens.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:08:49]:
I've literally never heard him say that.

Pat Millea [00:08:51]:
I know, isn't that strange? Yeah, I know, tell me about it.

Kenna Millea [00:08:54]:
Right, welcome, welcome to the club. There's two recovering insomnia people.

Pat Millea [00:08:58]:
Join us. That's the empathy I'm looking for right there. That's great. Join us. Yeah, both of you can't sleep.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:09:03]:
No, I can now, but it's contagious.

Pat Millea [00:09:05]:
What are you doing? Oh my gosh, leave me alone. Um, okay, my high is, um, I, uh, this is not very important, but it's just very fun. Uh, you know, a few weeks ago was the grand finale of Stranger Things, and I am on record as being a fan of Stranger Things. I'm not a fan of literally everything that is in Stranger Things because I'm not a fan of 100% of almost anything that is done in Hollywood. But it is like just such a ride. And it is like, it is the most deep— I get that they trade in nostalgia better than anything that's been done lately. So a lot of it really is nostalgia. Someone who's 20, someone who's 60, they probably don't like this show as much as I do.

Pat Millea [00:09:47]:
And I get it. But for somebody like me, it is right between the eyes. But even like the way they do it, like the villain Vecna in Stranger Things, is just such an awesome '80s-style villain. Like, he's kind of gross looking and he's unnerving, and, uh, there's enough gore that it's— it fits, but it's not so gory that it's off-putting. I don't know, I just— I had so much fun with it. It was a grand finale. The end of it was like beautifully, like, emotional, and it was this great reflection on like the end of childhood and what it means to like say goodbye to that and to move on to the next stage and The transition is really good, but you're always going to be sad that you don't have that anymore. It was just— oh, it was so good.

Pat Millea [00:10:29]:
It was, it was a blast.

Kenna Millea [00:10:30]:
So is it— is it— as I listen to you, you watch Stranger Things?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:10:34]:
I haven't seen the last series.

Kenna Millea [00:10:35]:
Oh, okay. So is it hard for you that I don't watch it? Like, I'm just trying to imagine for myself, like, loving something so much and you have like no idea what I'm talking about and no interest.

Pat Millea [00:10:48]:
I say this with all of the genuine charity. There is no subtext or sarcasm behind this. Yeah, I have so much practice loving things that you don't like that this doesn't move the needle between sports and Marvel.

Kenna Millea [00:11:06]:
And I take offense to that one. I worked very hard to watch a lot of football.

Pat Millea [00:11:11]:
Okay, you work very hard during watching football is what you do. You pull your computer out and off you go. So no, it's fine, it's fine. You, you are very kind and at hearing what I'm saying, even if you're not a part of the process. So it's all good.

Kenna Millea [00:11:25]:
Yeah. I'm going to take a page out of your book that everything I love, I don't have to try to convert you. Is that what the message is here?

Pat Millea [00:11:31]:
I'm so glad you picked up on that. That's great. That's what I was getting at. That was the subtext.

Kenna Millea [00:11:36]:
You say that was the subtext.

Pat Millea [00:11:37]:
I didn't realize there was subtext, but now I understand that you have found it. Yeah, that's great. Thanks for that.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:11:42]:
Is it like the I'm happy, you're happy?

Pat Millea [00:11:44]:
That's correct. Yeah, exactly right. She's just like, media Hollywood codependence right here.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:11:50]:
It's great.

Kenna Millea [00:11:52]:
Well, with that, I don't know how to segue into what we are going to discuss today. But yes, listeners, we are in our first episode on this book, He Leadeth Me. And actually, Father, I don't know that you know this. Pat and I this year have been asked by Ascension to be what they call an ambassador of their Lent program. So it's called Crux. And it's been really kind of a new adventure for us because our Lent usually are very different. We kind of discern them differently and it's like, what are you doing? You know, we kind of find out along the way what the other's got going on. But with this, we have been much more like intentional coming together.

Kenna Millea [00:12:35]:
But the theme of Crux this year is surrender.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:12:38]:
Oh, cool.

Kenna Millea [00:12:39]:
And so this book and that journey of really being like taken to the edge of your limits and to the point where you're like, I have no option but to surrender. So it feels really fitting. This is also the book that we read as a family last year with our oldest two kids. And I think part of what encouraged me to make it our book for this year is how, how well our— they were 12 and 14 at the time— like how well our children did, like connecting with the text and diving in and exploring its themes. And I was like, oh my gosh, like this, this is, this is a story for everyone. Like we can, we can appreciate this. So, you know, And listeners, whether you've read the book or not, the things we are discussing today really are like at the heart of every man and woman, these existential questions and these essential questions of faith. So I'm excited for that.

Kenna Millea [00:13:32]:
But if you haven't picked up the book, we'll link the, yeah, the Amazon link to buy it for yourself. And you can jump in even if you only read a chapter. Like it's just so dense and so rich. So, you know, I want to start us at the beginning. Today we're covering the prologue through chapter 7. Next episode, we'll hit chapters 8 through 14, and then 15 through the epilogue. So today, actually, I want to start us just within the prologue itself, that in the prologue, Father— sorry, it's not— is it Father Ciszek that writes the prologue?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:11]:
I don't know.

Kenna Millea [00:14:12]:
Yes, it is.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:12]:
Yes, it is. Yes, yes.

Kenna Millea [00:14:13]:
Okay, thank you. All of a sudden, I was like, is it Daniel Flaherty that writes the prologue?

Pat Millea [00:14:16]:
Yeah, yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:14:16]:
Okay, no.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:14:16]:
He's writing to Daniel. Yes, yes.

Kenna Millea [00:14:18]:
So, um, he's wrestling with these, again, like transcendent themes, these existential questions, um, and he talks about his desire to write this book because it's actually the second book he wrote after With God in Russia, which is much more of kind of a journal, a diary of the events, of more of a play-by-play.

Pat Millea [00:14:38]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:14:38]:
Um, and he said that this was much more personal, much more about his his own faith wrestling. And he ends it with saying, because every man's life contains its share of suffering. That was his recognition of like, this is a story that needs to be shared because every man's life contains its share of suffering. So I want to start there and ask the question of, of why, why would it be that God would permit it, right? That it becomes this universal experience. Why does he permit it? And I want to acknowledge the fall. I want to acknowledge, right, the, the presence of evil, the introduction of evil through the fall and therefore its real presence and activity in this world and get at like, but why would God permit it? Right? We know that he could intervene. We know that he could eradicate it. We know he could throw Satan out of, you know, Earth, this kingdom as we know it.

Kenna Millea [00:15:33]:
And he doesn't. And so why is it that he permits suffering to exist? And how do we understand that he's using it? We'll just start there.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:44]:
Yeah, exactly. I'm already drowning. So like, that was, that was really—

Pat Millea [00:15:48]:
I'm glad you started.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:15:49]:
That was like prologue in case you were following.

Kenna Millea [00:15:51]:
That was just telling you guys, if you only read a chapter, money well spent. It's $8.

Pat Millea [00:15:59]:
Just the, just the problem of evil that humans have wrestled with since the beginning of time. That's fine. No, we'll solve it. It's all good.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:16:05]:
You know, so it was— it's interesting you say that because I have been reflecting a lot just on the role that suffering has had both in my life, but then in people I'm doing direction with and whatnot, and company at the university, and all these things that are going on. And it's, it's been really interesting, um, to see how much of their sufferings has allowed them to reflect on reality in a way they'd never seen it before. And you can see— I mean, I'm not spoiling because it's like in the section that we're going to go through today, but like Walter Ciszek talks about how whenever he would pray for certain things, God would give him a profound self-insight. And so, like, he had yoked that there is an inseparable nature between suffering and insight into reality. And I think that this is one of the sobrieties that comes about. It is like we've all experienced this, right? Like we come through a, let's say, a substantial sickness What does everyone share in common who's come through a substantial sickness? I am so grateful for my health.

Pat Millea [00:17:04]:
Yeah, right. Totally.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:06]:
So suffering produces a reality of what you have. And so I think that for at least my own life, I can speak is when I've suffered and gone through the other side, I have oftentimes seen more clearly. And I think that people, when they avoid suffering at all costs, we would truly say, if you were to say to someone like, hey, if you— have you met anyone that like just tries to like hop from one pleasure to the next pleasure? What are they like? And people would usually use the word shallow.

Pat Millea [00:17:35]:
Sure.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:36]:
They have lack of insight.

Kenna Millea [00:17:39]:
Hard to connect with.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:40]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:17:40]:
I mean, yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:17:41]:
So that's kind of my thought, at least. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:17:43]:
There was a quote I heard years ago from some rabbi, and I can't remember his name, so forgive me on that. But the quote always sticks with me. And the quote is, someone who has never suffered, what could they ever possibly know anyway? Just like the, the kind of wisdom that you can only gain from suffering, you know. And you brought up the, the, the fall and the presence of evil, kind of. And I think, I wonder sometimes, this is just like my own Christian musings, so this is by no means, it is not on the catechism or anything, but I wonder like, so before the fall we were in perfect relationship with God. So if God wanted to produce some kind of good in us, um, we were full participants in that, and, and we were in, in lockstep with his will. We were heart to heart. If he wanted to give us wisdom, we were open to wisdom, and he could just pass it along, right? And I wonder sometimes if after the fall, if, if, if the question is like, well, couldn't God bring about these good virtues, this wisdom, this insight? Couldn't he bring this about some other way? And the answer is, after the fall, maybe not.

Pat Millea [00:18:50]:
You know, like, it's the nature of the fall. Yeah, right, right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:53]:
What did the tree give them?

Pat Millea [00:18:54]:
Yeah, knowledge of good and evil. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:18:56]:
So I don't need God anymore, right? I need my reality. I can do it myself. So like, by the very nature of how the fall impacted— yeah, psyche. Yeah. We literally cannot see without suffering because we have to break out of our own definitions.

Pat Millea [00:19:09]:
Yeah, yeah. The, um, I brought up the, the C.S. Lewis's space trilogy with One of our guests years ago, and years ago, weeks ago, and I can't remember who I talked about it with now, but it's one—

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:19:18]:
Perelandra?

Pat Millea [00:19:20]:
No, the very first one is Out of the Silent Planet, right? And the whole point of that is, of all the different planets in our solar system, none of them have fallen except Earth. And so all— there are other sentient beings on these other planets, and they are all unfallen beings. So they're innocent, they are pure, they communicate openly with angels, with God. They have no separation. And the title is because Earth is the silent planet. It's where we can't hear the voice of God clearly like those other planets can who have not fallen. So just like that break in communication, I think, has a lot to do with the way that suffering is actually, as backwards as it sounds, a gift to us. Yeah, it's the way that we grow.

Kenna Millea [00:20:03]:
Yeah. And I think, I mean, especially as we are journeying through Lent, I think about that Lent is this gift that we actively choose to undertake these, you know, denials.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:20:15]:
And she kind of had to take it.

Pat Millea [00:20:17]:
You don't have to look at it that way.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:20:19]:
Lent is great. False.

Pat Millea [00:20:21]:
I don't disagree, I just don't like it.

Kenna Millea [00:20:24]:
But, but like, but that— I think that's what gets me so excited is it's kind of like going on retreat. Like, you know it's going to be hard, you know the silence, you know the being alone with thoughts and your desires and your dependencies. They're freaking difficult to come to terms with. But you know that feeling of coming out the other side on Sunday evening and you're like, oh, I'm freer, I'm more aware, I'm more dependent on God and less dependent on self and other things. Like, it's that feeling of, of entering into suffering, like choosing it willfully.

Pat Millea [00:20:56]:
Um, can I tell you a term that I learned most recently that you're reminding me of? I learned the term friction maxing recently. It sounds vaguely inappropriate, but it's not. I can tell by your face, Father, you're uncomfortable with that term.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:21:11]:
That hasn't come up in confession. I'm sorry, I've not heard that one yet.

Pat Millea [00:21:15]:
You might hear it in therapy eventually. No, so it's— the principle is this. In 2026, where we're recording right now, life has become— in first world United States and in most first world nations, life has become so inconceivably easy and convenient in so many ways. If I want to watch a movie, I don't have to wait for it to come up on a TV channel. I can just stream it now. If I want food, I don't have to go to the restaurant. I can Uber Eats it to my door. Interesting.

Pat Millea [00:21:45]:
If I want groceries, I don't need to go there. I just get Instacart. If I don't—

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:21:49]:
music, all news, music.

Pat Millea [00:21:50]:
If I don't feel like going to a meeting, I I'll just Zoom it from home and it's going to be fine, right? And I can stay in my sweatpants and no one will know. Like all these ways that are wildly convenient. None of them are bad, but they're just very convenient. And the principle is the idea that that convenience has robbed us of the chance to suffer. And it has made us, to your point, Father, shallow, selfish, obsessed with our own comfort. And that if something is hard, I assume that I can't do it or it's not even worth trying because I just don't want to do it. So friction maxing is the principle of choosing to do a hard thing on purpose when you could do something much more convenient or simpler.

Kenna Millea [00:22:29]:
That is mainly because I call that the Christian life.

Pat Millea [00:22:32]:
Like, that's the thing, truly, like, kind of to your point, like Lent is the friction maxing season, right? Of like choosing what is hard because we believe that there is redemption in the struggle. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:22:44]:
And just the daily call.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:45]:
And this infomercial on Lent was brought to you by Kenna Millea. All things pointed to Lent.

Pat Millea [00:22:50]:
Thank you, Kenna.

Kenna Millea [00:22:52]:
I love—

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:22:53]:
I've never heard that term, obviously. That's why my face was surprised. Yeah, right. But I love that concept of if one is to look at the human experience, you are depriving yourself if you have robbed yourself of everything that creates friction.

Pat Millea [00:23:09]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:09]:
And the ironic thing, right, is like, just if you look at like the locomotive understanding, right, is like, I want to remove friction so I move faster. Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:23:19]:
Yep.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:19]:
But what are we— what? What? What?

Pat Millea [00:23:21]:
What?

Kenna Millea [00:23:21]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:23:22]:
Over a cliff, maybe.

Kenna Millea [00:23:23]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:23:23]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:23]:
And this is like— did you ever see WALL-E?

Kenna Millea [00:23:25]:
No.

Pat Millea [00:23:26]:
Our kids have. We have not. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:28]:
Please.

Kenna Millea [00:23:28]:
Yeah, it's good stuff.

Pat Millea [00:23:30]:
I've heard it.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:30]:
So here's the thing is it's actually— it's quite prophetic. So it talks about when AI takes over the world. It's Disney, but it's not Terminator. It's AI has made everything so convenient that human beings just literally sit in these floating chairs and anything that they want just pops up. And so, like, as you look at this, like, they look gross.

Pat Millea [00:23:51]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:23:52]:
And they're like, they're like, not like how people should look. And the robots almost look more human-like. And so it's just a fascinating kind of dichotomy. Okay.

Kenna Millea [00:24:02]:
I really do want to watch it.

Pat Millea [00:24:03]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:03]:
But it's this thing is like when there's no friction, there's no growth. But then also we are actually becoming something that we're not because we're actually meant describe. And this is where you see, like, what is it? What is the axiom? And, um, it's, uh, he's, um, because of his suffering, or because of his— it's in Hebrews— because of what he suffered, by his wounds we are healed. No, it's something about, like, like, by, like, suffering through obedience, or I botched it.

Pat Millea [00:24:31]:
Oh, sure, I know you're talking about. I can't think of the verse.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:33]:
It's in Hebrews. But I mean, but it's this whole concept, right, of, like, Christ's going through suffering voluntarily allowed us to see an aspect of humanity that even though he didn't need to, he's perfect. Yeah. That he reveals to us that not even the difficult makes us less.

Pat Millea [00:24:53]:
And although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:24:57]:
Thank you.

Pat Millea [00:24:58]:
Right. Hebrews 5:8. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:25:00]:
So, so 3 devout Christians and a priest. But thank you, Google, for your help in that.

Pat Millea [00:25:05]:
Really helping that Catholic stereotype right there. That's great. You knew the verse. We just don't know the numbers. It's okay.

Kenna Millea [00:25:11]:
Well, let's, let's turn back to the book. So that's the prologue. Welcome to the prologue. I'm curious, gentlemen, if you want to kick us off, if there's a part that stuck out to you in the prologue. No, no, no, no, no. We'll just move through this first section through. So up through chapter 7, and I'm okay with us bouncing around just however the spirit moves.

Pat Millea [00:25:29]:
I am always struck in the beginning of the book about how horrible Lubianka sounds and the solitary confinement. I just like the— I don't— I get that there was suffering for him in the prison camps where he was going through horrible physical grueling conditions. I get that there was suffering in, in the city that he ends up in where he's being monitored and spied on at all times and he's still not allowed to go home. But that idea of being alone for 4, 4 or 5 years, 4 years, for 4 years, I can't imagine over suffering. I just can't. So the way that he can talk about it as like, again, the gifts and the graces that came from that suffering— like when he talks about his time in this solitary cell as a school of prayer, and he talks about how, how much it taught him trust in the Lord and not in his own ability to deal with his situation. It just is— it, it is— I can't imagine something worse. As an extreme extrovert, I would rather be buried in hot coals than be alone for 4 years.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:32]:
Yeah, I mean, that's a little— it's like chapter 5, um, that he's talking about, just in case you wanted to follow along. But, um, it was interesting because I was reading just that— we actually covered this in just psychophysiology class about sensory deprivation.

Pat Millea [00:26:44]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:44]:
And how if the mind is devoid of senses— and of course he was able to like walk around, but they were talking about like people who were put in an experiment where they're put into a tank of salt water.

Pat Millea [00:26:55]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:26:55]:
Headphones, eye blockers. Speaking of Stranger Things, her name was Eleven.

Pat Millea [00:27:00]:
How did you know?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:01]:
But so you're in the sensory deprivation and the clinical trials to kind of see what would happen, the majority of people quit.

Kenna Millea [00:27:10]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:10]:
Because they were so unnerved, like, 'cause there was no external stimulus. And the ones that didn't quit began to hallucinate.

Pat Millea [00:27:17]:
Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:17]:
As their mind created stuff to have happen because they were like so needing input. So the reality of like, oh yeah, silent retreat, like that sounds great. Or like, oh my gosh, I'm so sick of my kids. Like I would love like a week of silence.

Pat Millea [00:27:31]:
Yeah, that sounds like vacation. Yeah, right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:33]:
Which is good, but then what he talks about in the book that's so interesting is how they were straining just to hear anything, and that the soldiers put things on their boots so you couldn't even hear the boots creep, and then you'd hear the peephole go, and that was the first noise you heard, and it was just this alarming thing.

Pat Millea [00:27:47]:
Yeah, yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:27:48]:
And how noise, in our world, we want to get rid of it so that we can appreciate silence, but in the reverse, the silence, You want something. And like, if you look at— this is where like C.S. Lewis in The Chronicles of Narnia, he talks about creation being done through song.

Pat Millea [00:28:06]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:28:07]:
And how it is this— the word is spoken and things were made. Like, it's this understanding that there has to be some substance. And so this absence of everything is actually an evil, not a good.

Pat Millea [00:28:20]:
Yeah. Right. It seems like an anti-incarnation, basically. Like, like the taking of the stripping away of Yeah, exactly right, right. Just the communist philosophy, really, right?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:28:33]:
Mm-hmm.

Pat Millea [00:28:33]:
No, that's my love.

Kenna Millea [00:28:34]:
No, I'm good. I'm just— I'm taking it in.

Pat Millea [00:28:35]:
Great, great.

Kenna Millea [00:28:36]:
Yeah, if you guys want to go somewhere else.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:28:38]:
So I mean, I love that. I was gonna go to that at some point leading up to him going to Lubianka. Yeah, I was really struck. So again, if you have not read this, just a very brief kind of thing is Walter Ciszek is from the United States, from New York State, and he It was like, oh, Pennsylvania.

Kenna Millea [00:28:57]:
Pennsylvania.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:28:58]:
I'm sorry. He's from Pennsylvania. And for us Midwesterners, it's all East Coast.

Pat Millea [00:29:02]:
And which is so funny because to them, all of these flyover states are just one big meaningless blob, right?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:29:09]:
Gosh, we're so cultural. But he— so he's from there, is trained in a Jesuit seminary. A letter is written by Pius XI to say we need missionaries for Russia. There's a new school that's been formed in Rome. He immediately hears that letter and he like puts his name in, gets sent over, is like dreaming about going to Russia, going to Russia, going to Russia. And then he's sent to Poland and he's ministering. And then while he's there, it gets taken over by the Russians. But like, he has this moment of like, should I go right into Russian mission or should I stay back and minister in the Polish parish? And he doesn't really know what to do.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:29:43]:
And one of the things that you see that Walter Ciszek's kind of wrestling with is How— and this is— it's a little bit abstract, but I want to hit it because I think it's a really good spiritual principle.

Pat Millea [00:29:54]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:29:54]:
How do I know what excites the desires of my heart are what God wants?

Pat Millea [00:30:00]:
Yeah. Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:01]:
Versus just something that I think is cool.

Pat Millea [00:30:04]:
That comes up all the time, by the way. I know.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:07]:
In this book especially.

Kenna Millea [00:30:08]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:08]:
He keeps on reflecting on it. It's like— and then like he goes and he's like, oh, maybe I went too far forward. And my passions carried me because I'm suffering or things didn't turn out well. And so it becomes a very Jesuit principle of like looking at like the movements of the heart. But I was really struck by that because I think that this is one of the things that we as Christians wrestle with. And I was just talking with a priest who was formed in the Jesuits this morning, actually, because I wanted to do a little homework before.

Pat Millea [00:30:39]:
Yeah, right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:39]:
Is I just said like, Do you see it as a perennial problem when you're doing direction for people that they equate the hardest option equals what God wants?

Pat Millea [00:30:52]:
Sure.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:30:53]:
Versus there's something moving on my heart that I'm super excited about. That can't be what the Lord wants because I'm just really excited about it and God would ask me to do what is really hard and difficult.

Pat Millea [00:31:05]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:31:06]:
And so I want to hold that up just as we talked about. The suffering, because I think these things get all convoluted. So then we don't really know how to suffer well, we don't know how to follow God well, and we just kind of like are like always this displeasing mesh of things.

Pat Millea [00:31:23]:
Yes.

Kenna Millea [00:31:24]:
Well, and I think too, in what you're saying, Father, about how even being able to discern the voice, the will of God, does require some level of trust in myself. And I find with clients that when they're talking about maybe a decision that they're like, well, that can't possibly be what God would want because it's what I want, and he would certainly want me to do the more sacrificial thing, or, you know, whatever.

Pat Millea [00:31:48]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:31:48]:
Um, is, is it really does come down to what is my relationship with myself and my ability to, to move forward trusting that I do hear him. And if I don't have that, even this process of discernment is going to be a very unsettling, upsetting exercise. Yeah. Because how am I ever going to be able to be at peace? He's not going to, you know, skywrite it for me.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:15]:
So something on that.

Kenna Millea [00:32:15]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:16]:
Yeah. Here's what's so interesting is we, we're so worried about skewing our discernment by saying like, oh, you know, what I really love in life is going to like skew me from discerning. But if we're honest, guess what else skews our discernment? God just wants me to suffer.

Pat Millea [00:32:31]:
Yeah, right, right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:32]:
God always wants me to choose the hard— hello, like, do you know how skewing works? If you think that there's only one side that you can go on. So here's the fascinating thing is it's actually we have to set aside both of those.

Pat Millea [00:32:43]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:43]:
And to say, God, I— what is it that you want? And then this is the humbling thing. Maybe you don't hear anything.

Pat Millea [00:32:51]:
Sure.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:32:52]:
And what that means is maybe there's not something you directly have to do and that God will bring forth not a right through his providential thing. Yeah, whatever. He's big God.

Pat Millea [00:33:02]:
Yeah, right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:33:02]:
Like, that's what you see in his book. Like, it's such like you talked about surrender, kind of, but it's like this understanding of how providence works. So when I was talking to this Jesuit again, he was like, we lose the reality of permissive will.

Pat Millea [00:33:15]:
Sure.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:33:16]:
Of like, God allows things to happen, but he's not going to be like, whoa, You really messed up on that. So I'll see on the other side, but good luck. It's like, no, he's going to be pouring graces upon you even through it. And just like, saw this over and over again. But every time he hit a roadblock, he moved to self-condemnation. And then what happened when he was put in the suffering? Illumination.

Pat Millea [00:33:42]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:33:42]:
It's like he starts to have all these like aha moments of like, I was praying for my persecutors to convert and praying for more bread. And then I realized my prayer had to change, and it was more about me seeing myself more clearly. And so like, this is actually what happens is if we're discerning God's will, how do we— what are the fruits? A profound insight into oneself. To your point, Kenna, that I'm able to then respond authentically to say, actually, this is selfish, this is not.

Pat Millea [00:34:12]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:34:13]:
Does that make sense? Is it way too abstract?

Pat Millea [00:34:15]:
No, not at all. No. And it strikes me, it It's a sad reality, I think, of human nature that if I want it, it must be bad. That assumption that I think a lot of Christians make, and it's rooted in a deeper truth, and the half-truth is God's will is more important than my desires, and that's 1,000% true. The false corollary that we take from that is that my desires are always wrong. Yes. What's— what you're bringing out, Father, is that they are independent of each other. Like, sometimes my desires align with God's, and in those cases I really need to follow my desires.

Pat Millea [00:34:52]:
And sometimes those desires are implanted and fostered specifically by God, right? And sometimes my desires and passions are obviously, and sometimes not obviously, separate from God's will. What God wants is different from what I want. And what's tricky is having the uncertainty of not really knowing what that relationship is at any given point. I when we were talking to Mike and Alicia Hernon, our storytellers episode with them was about them knowing when they were meant to marry each other. And they made this great point at the beginning, which is you will never, ever be 100% sure that you're doing the right thing before you make a decision. Like, yes, no, yes, no fiancé is 100% sure that this is God's will for this, that they need to marry this spouse. No priest is 100% sure that he's called to be a priest on his ordination day. And they said, like, if you were 100% sure, you are not faithful anymore.

Pat Millea [00:35:50]:
You're just rational. That's it, right? Like, faith steps in the moment when I say, I don't actually know, God, if this is your will, but I'm just gonna try something because trying something is better than doing nothing. And I trust that even if I make a misstep, that you are with me in that misstep too.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:08]:
So to quote This is from Ciszek on page 47, if you have this one. What is— I don't know which version this is. It's blue cover. The blue cover.

Pat Millea [00:36:16]:
The only one. Yeah, I know.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:17]:
He says, no situation is ever without its worth and purpose in God's providence. Like, no situation is ever without its worth and purpose in God's providence.

Pat Millea [00:36:30]:
Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like St. Therese, everything is grace, right? Even the sin that is opposed to God's will. Even that could be a source of God's providence. It could be grace if we respond to it the right way. Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:43]:
And this is too where, like, I will tell a lot of my directees, stay in your lane, because what's ending up happening is like the— what do they call it? The comparison is the thief of joy.

Pat Millea [00:36:53]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:36:54]:
And like everyone's trying to look and compare, like, how's my pace car? Am I doing the right thing? Is this the right thing? And at the end of the day, it's like, okay, why don't we look vertically?

Pat Millea [00:37:03]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:04]:
And God is going to work. So how do you feel internally about what's going on? I don't like my life. Let's start there. Right? Right. Okay. Or like, I'm so happy right now and I can't let myself rest. Let's start there.

Pat Millea [00:37:18]:
Like, just back to reality.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:37:20]:
God can use this.

Pat Millea [00:37:21]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:37:23]:
I think, you know, this, this idea of, of trusting that that whatever I discern, or even when I, even when I don't discern something and I just do it because I feel like it, that I'm somehow outside of the reach of God. I'm going to go back to the very first chapter. Um, is it Albertan? Albertan is the first chapter.

Pat Millea [00:37:44]:
Sure.

Kenna Millea [00:37:45]:
This on pages 19 and 20. So I'm just going to read a couple excerpts. But, um, Ciszek writes, it was agony for me as a priest to ask these questions, but it was impossible not to ask them. So this is when the faithful of his parish are coming to him and they're just freaking out, right? The The Red Army is invading, and they're just like, you know, where do we go, Father? So he says, and I'm sure they came to me— they came not to me alone. It was not a crisis of faith. It was rather a crisis of understanding, and no one need be ashamed to admit he has been troubled by it. And I just, like, even as I say it now, like, I just have goosebumps of thinking about this distinction of faith and understanding. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:38:28]:
And how often we conflate the two. Yes. And we berate ourselves ourselves, or we allow a lack of understanding to become the downfall of our faith. And we say, well, I must not have faith either, you know, I must not have faith at all, right? And, and for him to say, like, there's no shame in this. There's no shame to say I don't understand the will of God. Welcome to the club, okay? Like, even, even our most erudite of saints have not understood.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:38:53]:
Go back to Jesus, actually.

Kenna Millea [00:38:56]:
And, and so just to I don't know, it was just such a source of consolation for me of like, there is a distinction and I can have those two things at the same time. I can be in the dark and not understanding or even not like what's happening and still choose to be faithful and still choose to cry out in faith, right? A request to be rescued would be an act of faith, um, trusting that God is there, right?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:24]:
I really appreciate that too, kind of, because when I've been teaching young people especially, I always want to hit on the point that because like they're questioning, right? And I think that oftentimes, especially if someone like a teacher is insecure in their faith, they may see the questions as antagonistic.

Kenna Millea [00:39:39]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:40]:
And I always want to be clear, like the enemy of faith is not doubt, it's apathy.

Kenna Millea [00:39:45]:
Yes.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:39:46]:
It's when you don't care about asking questions, right? Don't desire to seek any sort of understanding, don't desire to grow, right? Like, then actually this is where faith starts to dwindle, is you just— there's no more. And this is what's so beautiful. Again, going back to C.S. Lewis, because it's a good episode, every quote. But like, the— like, higher and higher up, like, even in heaven, he has this perpetual questioning because it's endless, right? And like, even in Perelandra, another C.S. Lewis quote, I mean, they're asking questions actively and they're growing in understanding even though they're without sin.

Pat Millea [00:40:24]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:40:25]:
And so like the questioning is not the problem, it's the not caring.

Kenna Millea [00:40:30]:
Can we just settle on that for a second? As three people who I know, like various parts of our faith stories that we had serious questions that we were going through and like as a parent of teenagers and of people of, you know, coming into their young adulthood and this this— yeah, this wrestling that exists in me of actually wanting them to question, like wanting them— because I know that this faith will not be their own. They will just be borrowing mommy and daddy's piety if they do not wrestle and question. But it's so flipping scary, right?

Pat Millea [00:41:02]:
Terrifying.

Kenna Millea [00:41:02]:
For each of our parents, it was to watch us do what we were doing, each of us in our own way. And, and yet, like, it's so essential. And so to, to have this concept in our minds of, like, how can we give our children permission to ask questions, to doubt, and to make that connection to them of like, yes, and bring that to the Father, bring that to God, bring that to me. Like, there is a way in which there's still relationship even when we have these doubts and these questions. But I think that is so hard for us as parents who can only see this moment and who can't see how this questioning is a beautiful thread in a much bigger tapestry.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:41:38]:
I know priests are probably the minority of you listening, just, just statistically wise, but we as priests also feel that, like, yeah, where when people are questioning, it's like immediate, like, defense. Like, yeah, what do you mean? Like, come on, come on. I mean, like, do you not know? Like, I am speaking from a tradition of 2,000 years. Like, let me put you in your place. And they're like, yep, I just— I'm sorry, Father. Yeah. And so, like, either they just submit in a blind piety, or they actually just leave because it's like, well, clearly I'm not welcome. I'm not welcome.

Kenna Millea [00:42:11]:
And you don't care.

Pat Millea [00:42:13]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:42:13]:
Yeah. So I think, I think it— I'm glad you paused us on that because when we are the one dealing out the answers, we forget the compassion towards the questioner.

Pat Millea [00:42:23]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:42:23]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:42:23]:
Well, I remember, Kenna, you've been talking about your— one of your big faith story moments was bringing some, some significant doubts and questions to a priest professor at Notre Dame. And it wasn't the information that he gave you that really opened your heart. It was his posture and stance of let's have a conversation. Okay, tell me, tell me what you think, what you believe. And that his lack of defensiveness was so surprising, maybe disarming, literally like you putting down your weapons. And it's that thing of like, well, if, if you're not desperate to defend your position, maybe you're so confident in your position that you don't care what I have to say because you know that you're right, you know what I mean? And I remember Isaac Wicker in one of our former episodes talking about that too. Like, you can rage against the church, I can raise a rage against the church, we could all leave the church. It's not going to go away.

Pat Millea [00:43:16]:
It's not going to change. So I don't have to get so worked up when someone has doubts and questions and fears, including myself. Like, I don't have to be afraid of my own doubts and questions because, like, the gates of hell will not prevail. And that includes the gates of my doubt and, and lack of understanding. Like, I can't defeat this. So I get the great grace of just being a part of moving toward truth.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:43]:
Yeah. So if it's okay, I want to carry on what you just actually shared, like, because this kind of leads into evangelization as well, right?

Pat Millea [00:43:49]:
Sure.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:43:49]:
How do we deal with the questions and answers and doubts and things like this? And this is the thing that I was so fascinated by Walter Ciszek, because he's so desiring to be in Russia, so excited. He kind of goes like under the radar and he's like disguised as like a worker, not as a priest. And then like, he kind of is in this like kind of camp. Like, I don't even know what the first was, like a holding area where they're kind of like working and building something or whatever. But like, he realizes quickly that like these people who are here are not here by force. They actually want to come to communist Russia, so they have no desire to talk about the faith.

Pat Millea [00:44:24]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:24]:
And so he says on page 35, again, the wonderful blue book version of this, I think it's chapter 3. He says nobody wanted to talk about religion, let alone practice it. And here he is, this priest, and he's like, I'm going to evangelize Russia and I'm going to be there. And like, no one wants to talk about it.

Pat Millea [00:44:40]:
Which, by the way, are you talking about Soviet Russia or 2026 America?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:44]:
Exactly what I'm bringing up. Yeah, exactly. And so our intention often, or our like response to that is, you know, oh, I'm just going to shove it.

Pat Millea [00:44:54]:
Totally.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:44:55]:
I'm going to push down your throat like this is why you need it. This is why your life sucks.

Pat Millea [00:44:58]:
Wait till they see this tweet. This will do it. Exactly.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:45:02]:
I'm going to armchair wrestle them. But then it's interesting because as Walter Ciszek keeps battling with this, just like he thought, like, oh, this is going to be great. And he's probably reading the stories of Ignatius, Xavier, who's like going and evangelizing pagan India. And like, no one wants to talk about it. And in fact, later on when he tells people that he's a priest, he gets even more ostracized. And then it's like, you see the clericalism come up because he's like, like, everyone's supposed to like—

Kenna Millea [00:45:27]:
yes, yes, yes.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:45:29]:
I don't understand. And what's happening? Like, they're not massaging my ego. This is really disconcerting, you know? And then he's like, oh, I'm being persecuted because I'm a priest. But like, then he's like, woe is me. And then he comes to this conclusion, and I love this. This is at the end of page 49, and so it's in chapter 4. And he says, he was asking me to forget about my powerlessness against the system and to look instead to the immediate needs of those around me this day, in order that I might do everything that it was in my power to do by prayer and example. So here is where we epically fail and lose in our work of evangelization.

Pat Millea [00:46:13]:
Sure.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:14]:
As we lose, I have stopped seeing the other.

Pat Millea [00:46:17]:
Yeah, yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:46:19]:
And this is where we Christ, and I love the story of the Samaritan woman, John 4, is he stops and is engaging this woman and just asking for water. He's not leading with, you know, like, hey, pagan, want to come back to church? You know, like, and he's like, he's like, can I just have some water? And she's like, I'm not going to give you water. And then like, we know how the story goes in the Chosen rendition of it. He is basically like, you know, why, why would you talk to me? And Jonathan Rumi's character looks her in the eyes and it's like such a beautiful moment. He goes, I came to Samaria for you. And you can see she just freezes. And it is the moment of change when not about doctrinal wrestling, not about ideology, she realizes that someone actually cares about her. And that's when, boom, the walls start to fall.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:47:19]:
And then shortly after that, she runs back to her city going, come and meet a man who told me everything about my life.

Pat Millea [00:47:25]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:47:26]:
What did— what did he tell you about? The kingdom of God? Kind of. How you need to change everything? Kind of. Everything about my— so he's reviewing your life and your value as a person. And someone cared. And now I'm set on fire and want everyone to meet him. So we see Walter Cizik's conversion in evangelization is moving from an ideology of what should happen to seeing the person.

Pat Millea [00:47:53]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:47:54]:
And we definitely could use—

Pat Millea [00:47:57]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:47:58]:
Some seeing of people.

Kenna Millea [00:47:59]:
I love that you brought that up, by the way, because I— Pat and I are sharing— I had no— this end of, end of page Page 49, because I had copied that down because Pat and I were sharing a copy of the book. And after that, I wrote, mic drop. That was like— I was like on the treadmill, like reading this, and I was like, oh my gosh, just, just don't drop this mic, please.

Pat Millea [00:48:21]:
Still need these.

Kenna Millea [00:48:22]:
His ability to transcend, right, space and that circumstance. And I'm like, he is talking to me right now. He's talking to me with the people I claim to love. I do love them, but, you know, the ways that I treat them. And yeah, this is, this is for each of us.

Pat Millea [00:48:38]:
That is the overarching theme of this entire book is I— it is the Holy Spirit has blessed Father Walter Ciszek in so many ways. But the main way for me is how he can somehow make his unspeakable worst 25 years that anyone can ever imagine going through Living through.

Kenna Millea [00:48:58]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:48:59]:
And it, and it, it feels like he's saying to me, well, your life is like this too, right? And of course, on one hand, he's— it's not even close. But on the other hand, it is like this. Like, this is the principles, the responses, the spiritual stance.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:18]:
It's—

Pat Millea [00:49:18]:
that all relates to any of our experience here today, that the fear, the shame that comes from doubt, the suffering of isolation. What happens when I'm not confident in my mission and I don't know if I'm doing the will of God? What happens when I got into a mission, when I'm in a mission that I was really excited about and I realize that it's not— I don't like this and I don't like it. Yeah. Like, what do I do now? It just— it is just incredible how his life speaks to me somehow.

Kenna Millea [00:49:48]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:49:48]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:49:48]:
Well, and if we're going to go on that, you know, kind of these overarching themes, I think the title of this book, right, He Leadeth Me, right? This idea of, of of humility and dependence upon the Lord and just staying close to him. I mean, that has been a prayer on my heart as we go into— as we've come into Lent, of like, I think it comes out of— in during Advent we read Searching for and Maintaining Peace with our oldest two. And my takeaway from that was like, if I could remember that the Lord is with me in every moment, I'm good. Like, you know, even in the hardest moments, like, I'm good because I have confidence. Like, we'll do this, we'll figure this out, like you're with me. So anyways, when I think about that, like I'm coming in with this desire, this, this, yeah, desire to practice a better awareness that like God is faithful and he is here. Um, it's in the chapter called Interrogations and kind of spans pages 71 to 74 where he's talking about humility and he's talking about, um, it says quote, learning the full truth of our dependence upon God and our relation to his will is what the virtue of humility is all about. And then I'm going to skip ahead.

Kenna Millea [00:50:55]:
He says, and what we call humiliations are the trials by which our more complete grasp of this truth is tested. It is self that is humiliated. There would be no, quote, humiliation if we had learned to put self in its place. And then I'll jump to the end of my section here. And the stronger the ingredient of self develops in our lives, the more severe must our humiliations be in order to purify us. And it's—

Pat Millea [00:51:23]:
Please God, no.

Kenna Millea [00:51:25]:
It's so true. Um, and I thought of— yeah, Pat, you referenced, you know, Everything is Grace from Therese of Lisieux.

Pat Millea [00:51:31]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:51:31]:
Um, I thought of, uh, when C.S. Lewis writes to Sheldon, uh, like, the severe mercy, right? This idea of— and in Romans 8:28, of like, man, if I could just see that in those moments that are so flipping painful to me because I am aware of my weakness and my lack, that if I could see in that moment the Lord is like, I'm shining this light to show you just how much I want to supplement and be there for you. But I don't receive it that way. I receive it as a blow to my ego.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:01]:
In that same section, uh, Interrogation on 73, he— in this, I use this line all the time in spiritual direction with people, is Humility is truth. The full truth. The truth that encompasses our relation to God, the Creator, and through him, to the world he has created into our fellow man. Humility is truth. And this is where I think exactly what you're saying, Kenna, is when I am able to say, here's who I am, here's how I'm responding, here's where I need to change. Yeah, that's true. And that's humility.

Kenna Millea [00:52:35]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:36]:
And I know where I've seen the most growth. And I love these moments when someone says something and you're like, shoot, that was right.

Pat Millea [00:52:45]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:46]:
And like, I misspoke. I really apologize. And like, it just— it pierces in a good way.

Pat Millea [00:52:52]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:53]:
Because you're like, I need to change.

Kenna Millea [00:52:55]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:52:55]:
And it's not this wrestle, duke them out session. It's like, it's actually like really relieving. And I think this is where The truth will set you free and humility. Like, all these things are kind of tied together so closely with Christ. I mean, gosh, he was consistent.

Pat Millea [00:53:12]:
Message is true. That's so weird.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:16]:
But I think this is too, where like, and the reason I bring it up a lot in spiritual direction is people want humility as a concept and they think it's like thinking poorly of myself or thinking like less of myself, which ironically they're thinking more of themselves because of how much I'm thinking.

Pat Millea [00:53:31]:
Totally right. Right.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:32]:
And how much less I am than everyone else. It's like, great, congratulations. Can you forget about yourself, please? Yeah. But like, the truly humble person that I've met is the person who's actually like, they kind of know who they are, and maybe they're kind of a little gruff because they're just like, yep, this is it.

Kenna Millea [00:53:47]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:48]:
What I am is what I am.

Pat Millea [00:53:49]:
And yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:53:51]:
First revelation of God's name to humanity: I Am Who Am. Dang, humility and truth.

Pat Millea [00:53:57]:
Like, yeah, they align pretty well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:54:01]:
Can I, can I have permission to share the story, the, like, a hard work story this week where I think this comes to modern day? Okay.

Pat Millea [00:54:10]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:54:10]:
So we had a really challenging work situation earlier this week, and Pat and I needed to meet with someone who was upset with us for some things that had happened, not out of ill will on our part, but in the nature of being human, things that happened. And this person came into the meeting with just like a lot of understandable emotion and upset. And as we got going, I was kind of facilitating and Pat was sharing kind of some of the data that would help to explain kind of how all this just fell apart. And as Pat was sharing, there were a couple moments where you paused and you said, I'm really sorry about that. You said at another point, like, as I look back on kind of how this unfolded, like, I see a missed opportunity here that I— oh man, I wish I would have done it differently. Could I go back? I would do it differently. And this person, you know, the emotion really— the affect just started to change. And she said, you just don't hear people being accountable much anymore.

Kenna Millea [00:55:04]:
And, and for me, it was this awareness of like, I kind of wondered if she came in expecting to have to defend her position.

Pat Millea [00:55:09]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:55:10]:
And when we really showed her like, no, we see it your way, like, we get why you're upset.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:55:14]:
Yeah, thank you for coming in.

Kenna Millea [00:55:15]:
There was just this like, oh. And, and, and it was just— it changed the whole tone, and it became like, okay, let's figure this out together. Let's, you know, figure out a way forward together.

Pat Millea [00:55:24]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:55:24]:
Um, but But that being humility in action, right? It was truth. Like, the things she was upset about, they were objectively true. And how much effort we could have lost in trying to fight that or trying to spin it in a way that made us look good. And it was like, actually, the easiest path through this is to embrace humility, to apologize, and to move on, and to not berate ourselves much longer. I don't know how you felt about it afterward, but like, to let it go and to be like, yeah, It's, it's done. Like, let's, let's actually let that be a brick in the foundation of this relationship versus a brick in the wall between us.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:56:00]:
How did you feel?

Pat Millea [00:56:01]:
What are you looking at me about?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:56:02]:
I'm curious how you did feel. That's all.

Pat Millea [00:56:04]:
Yeah. I mean, I, I, I am on record as being not very humble sometimes, so it's very difficult for me to, like, acknowledge that I make mistakes. And these, like you said, kind of, they were not malicious. They weren't even really lazy mistakes. They were just like honest mistakes, right? Right, but I just hate making mistakes that get things tense and tied up and emotionally charged, whatever. Just drives me crazy, my own weakness. So it felt very good to like get it out, to like let— like open the door and see that there's no monster in there and just like, uh, identify what mistakes I made that I could have done differently so that we can move forward together. It was, yeah, much, much better than trying to build this facade of self-protection and like, no, I did because I didn't mean it like that.

Pat Millea [00:56:51]:
I was— I would really, because of these other circumstances, there's nothing else I could have done. Just, just dropping all of that effort and garbage, you know.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:56:59]:
No, thank you for sharing that. That's a great— yeah, great application.

Pat Millea [00:57:02]:
Yeah, yeah. Taking all these beautiful principles from Father Ciszek, they get very practical in some ways, but let's get even more practical. Father, any kind of a challenge by choice that you would propose from this first section?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:57:17]:
I will, and actually comes right from Walter Ciszek. So when he was in the solitary confinement and literally like no external stimulus, he started to make this regiment of prayer that he would do. And he said it was very similar to like the novitiate. And one of the things that he found renewed value in was the fact that he could go back to the Our Father. And he said, I had no idea how much depth was in this. And what he found was as he slowly worked through the Our Father, it was this illumination of how to do like living in the present moment, abandonment to divine providence, Romans 8:28. And I've still, like, as I read it, like I've read this multiple times, but I still don't do a good job valuing the Our Father. It's kind of like, you know, oh, that's the first part of the rosary.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:57:58]:
Like, yeah, let's keep moving.

Pat Millea [00:57:59]:
Sure.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:57:59]:
But realizing there's so much weight, like when we asked Christ to teach us to pray and he gives us that prayer and we're like, I memorized it, I won.

Pat Millea [00:58:08]:
And he's like, let's see how fast I can do it.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:58:10]:
Okay. Like there's a lot in this, like. So the challenge by choice is if you can just slowly pray through the Our Father, maybe even just take a line and just say like, Our Father, and just meditate and just like, what does that mean when you say that? Or even like, you know, give us this day our daily bread. And like, when is the last time that you stopped and you thought like, have you actually given me my daily bread? And you have to stop and say like, shoot, like I have had an answer to prayer. Like, yeah. So just, just the challenge by choice is to really value the Our Father and to slowly go through it and digest it.

Kenna Millea [00:58:46]:
Yeah.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:58:46]:
Can you, do you have the page number that that's on when he talks about it?

Kenna Millea [00:58:49]:
Um, is it in the Lubianka?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:58:50]:
Um, I think that it's in, gosh, I'm seeing some of the other notes of what we didn't cover and I'm like, oh my God, I wanna see that too.

Pat Millea [00:58:58]:
Tell me about it. Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:59:00]:
I think it's okay.

Pat Millea [00:59:01]:
I think it's in, maybe.

Kenna Millea [00:59:02]:
Yeah. I was gonna say in the show notes, Pat, would you mind putting that in there?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:59:05]:
Oh, it is. It's on 62 and 63, so I think it's chapter number 5, at the end of chapter 5.

Pat Millea [00:59:11]:
Okay, there you go. Nailed it. Uh, do you mind praying for us, Father, speaking of that?

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:59:15]:
All right. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Amen. Good and gracious Lord, we ask for the grace as we continue on our journey of Lent to humbly see reality, that we may truly be, um, sons and daughters of true truth. We pray that we may be humble in our approach to your will, not grasping or saying what should or should not be, but rather receiving the gift of this day. Open our eyes with the gift of faith that we may not lose our way as we follow your providence. We ask all these prayers through Christ our Lord.

Pat Millea [00:59:54]:
Amen. Amen.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [00:59:55]:
Father, Son, and the Holy Amen.

Pat Millea [00:59:59]:
Thank you, Father Nathan. What a great start to He Leadeth Me. Thank you, my love.

Kenna Millea [01:00:03]:
Yeah, you guys, it's so good.

Pat Millea [01:00:08]:
Friends, join us on this journey. If you don't have your copy of the book yet, you can check the show notes out or just get it on your own. Start reading, join us, catch up. We'll be back next week with part 2 of our reflection on He Leadeth Me, and we would love for you to be a part of our humble little book study here here. You can check out more information at thiswholifepodcast.com. You can follow us on Instagram @thiswholelifepodcast. And until next week, we will—

Kenna Millea [01:00:33]:
Yeah, no waiting.

Pat Millea [01:00:34]:
No waiting. Right to part 2.

Fr. Nathan LaLiberte [01:00:36]:
He leadeth me again.

Pat Millea [01:00:37]:
He leadeth you to the next episode. Again and again and again. God bless you, friends. This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center for Integration. Visit us online at thiswholifepodcast.com.

Kenna Millea [01:00:56]:
I can't remember that guy's name.

Pat Millea [01:01:07]:
Is it Jonathan Larson?

Kenna Millea [01:01:13]:
We can link it up in the show notes. Why?

Pat Millea [01:01:17]:
Oh, it'll be in the show notes, that's for sure. This is not the episode, so they'll have no idea why it's in there. Jonathan Larson, nailed it. Look at that. Not just a pretty face.

Kenna Millea [01:01:26]:
What did you nail?